<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can be anywhere on the map, but keep in mind that you have to be very coordinated not to mention the best way to beat sensory is to have my marines stick in a large group, as aliens will have to cover everywhere and I only have to focus pushing on a couple of res rich area's.
Not to mention the new cloak is cool, now that you can walk, but as soon as you become 5% visible good marines will shoot at you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keep in mind that for marines to win, they have to be coordinated also. My point was, if the kharaa knew what the heck they were doing, they'd definitely work together, and they could make Sensory powerful. Just because Sensory is hard to use doesn't mean it doesn't have potential. Kind of like the fade; it's quite deadly in a master's hands, and quite useless in someone who is only fairly skilled with the fade.
And you're looking for facts, no? ASSUMING that every marine player will identify cloaking is not a fact. Even many experienced players cannot spot cloaking easily.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, yes, because sensory chambers require large sensory networks to be effective, which costs mad res.
And I guarentee you that if your entire team rushes nodes at the start of the game you will lose to a good marine team. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say we'd rush nodes, I just said we'd still have enough res to take the nodes when we wanted.
Secondly, as I've said before, <i>who said anything about a large Sensory network?</i> Cloaking is cheap enough.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What kind of comm drops the node before the area is secure? I'll drop it after it's safe. Once it's up I will electrify it ASAP and the node will stay for a good 7 min.
And if you say you will kill the marines as they build it by cloak walking up to them; again, good marines can see cloak walking aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say you dropped the node before it was secure. I said you had marines go there, then you dropped the node, then they started building, and cloaked skulks happened to be on the roof or something and then killed your marines. Then they took out your res tower before it was even built, and you can't recycle it in time if there are even three skulks, which you will find in a strong kharaa team, WORKING TOGETHER.
Medspam also > fades, lerks, gorges too. It depends on the medspam. If you drop even 7 medpacks that early in the game, the kharaa will rejoice at your waste of resource.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Funny, everytime I see sensory used results in all but 1-3 nodes taken by the marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm, that's not an argument. That's what you see. And what you see doesn't always happen. I could just as well say that every time I see movement used the marines all suddenly get HA in 1 minute into the game.
Yes.. the marine could drop 2 obs and scan the hell out of things...
Then you counter with teamwork...
Ive played a few good pub games...
Its simply too much for me to be constantly pinging, tracking movements, building, upgrading
When the comm has to start pinging all over, it simply gets crazy to the point where it is neigh impossible to do.... so it is counterable, but you slow the commander down, as he has more things to do
2 obs is 8 pings if you try to use them all within 30 seconds. That's not a lot, considering that experienced cloakers tend to hide in places that they know that the comm really won't see a point in scanning.
In full honesty: If you're comm, and your marines are going to shipping tunnel in ns_caged, would you scan shipping tunnel first, or would you scan the hall that leads to shipping tunnel? Assuming you haven't read what I just posted here.
I in my humble opinion believe that almost all comms would scan shipping tunnel first.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When the comm has to start pinging all over, it simply gets crazy to the point where it is neigh impossible to do.... so it is counterable, but you slow the commander down, as he has more things to do <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i also have ears and a good set of headphones i can listen to shipping before my marines enter the corridor leading to shipping to get an idea of alien forces in shipping, then i can scan the coriodr and then shipping when the marines move there. But considering im most likley to send about 3-5 guys into shipping tunnel are you going to have 3-5 skulks in shipping ? i doubt it. The alien skulks would most probably be attacking RTs or harrasing on the edge range of my obs's
dont get me wrong ive played in games where aliens have won with sc as first chamber against a farily decent rine side, but in those instances the aliens have managed to secure a second hive before the marine did. but the problm is, what if u arent able to secure a second hive what do you do then? breaking down a 2 hive lock down with only sensry chambers is very hard. and before u say yes but u can use team play, well u can but there a difference 1 onos + 1 lurk + 1 gorge to take a base with DC <u>OR</u> the whole team attacking together at once to take a base down with SC. the aliens just cant afford to do it in that situation to have their entire team at one location to take a base, while the marines have complete freedom all over the map. sure it may get u a hive at the cost of nearly every res node your team owns.
thats why everyone wants dc because in the worst case scenario game DC is the best. and the 1st hive chamber usually has to be DC because the marines will usually try to lock 2 hives down ( well on pubs anyway). u deny aliens hives u dont have to deal with oni stomp which pretty much is the one ability on the onos gets that can turn a game around from a loss to a victory.
<!--QuoteBegin--leek+Oct 25 2003, 09:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (leek @ Oct 25 2003, 09:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i also have ears and a good set of headphones i can listen to shipping before my marines enter the corridor leading to shipping to get an idea of alien forces in shipping, then i can scan the coriodr and then shipping when the marines move there. But considering im most likley to send about 3-5 guys into shipping tunnel are you going to have 3-5 skulks in shipping ? i doubt it. The alien skulks would most probably be attacking RTs or harrasing on the edge range of my obs's
dont get me wrong ive played in games where aliens have won with sc as first chamber against a farily decent rine side, but in those instances the aliens have managed to secure a second hive before the marine did. but the problm is, what if u arent able to secure a second hive what do you do then? breaking down a 2 hive lock down with only sensry chambers is very hard. and before u say yes but u can use team play, well u can but there a difference 1 onos + 1 lurk + 1 gorge to take a base with DC <u>OR</u> the whole team attacking together at once to take a base down with SC. the aliens just cant afford to do it in that situation to have their entire team at one location to take a base, while the marines have complete freedom all over the map. sure it may get u a hive at the cost of nearly every res node your team owns.
thats why everyone wants dc because in the worst case scenario game DC is the best. and the 1st hive chamber usually has to be DC because the marines will usually try to lock 2 hives down ( well on pubs anyway). u deny aliens hives u dont have to deal with oni stomp which pretty much is the one ability on the onos gets that can turn a game around from a loss to a victory. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You actually scan the corridor? You're quite a unique commander then. I barely know any commanders who listen carefully to their marines' waypoints and somehow at the same time still manage their base and researching and all at the same time.
As for the 3-5 skulks in shipping, my point, again, was not just any joe who just popped into a public server. Nope, I'm talking about people who are SKILLED with sensory. In other words, ambushing doesn't work well unless you have groups of 2-3 near each other. Either way, skulks are much deadlier that way and should always be played so.
I'm not quite sure about this 2-hive lockdown thing. Many people have brought it up, yet nobody seems to remember what Sensory's main reason is. Is Sensory for ambushing? Yes, in fact, that's it's main asset, but why ambush marines? To get kills? Sometimes. To defend an area? Always. Unless you're cloak-walking into a marine base towards a TF's blind spot. Anways, what I'm saying is that Sensory...if used correctly, is supposed to be anti-worst-case-scenario. Just like every other chamber.
If the kharaa chose Sensory and couldn't prevent the marines from getting two hives, they simply weren't being very tactical. They were probably too predictable and got pinged by the commander multiple times, and since they can't hold off marines anywhere, they let the commander get plenty of resource towers and therefore research Motion Tracking. If that happens, just say gg to the kharaa. They lost the minute they decided to ignore Sensory's strengths.
Cbf reading it all, But got the idea of it. If u 'hive queens' don't like it so much, don't u have some sorta power to help change it? You got experience in these forums and respect with flayra. Either give some ideas.
If Sensory sucks soo badly, which i nearly agree with, why don't u guys with power use your voices and fix it for the rest, so it don't suck nemore?
Has anybody seen any changes in the log that say Sensory is getting a boost?
Personally, I think of myself as a pretty good comm (when I lose it's either when I'm tired so I suck or my marines suck) and I still have trouble dealing with sensory first. This is partially due to the fact that for some reason my hotkeys stopped working (so I can't hotkey obs anymore) and when they did work, I could only hotkey two obs at a time!
My brother, however, has gotten so good at interpreting the sounds of the Half Life Engine that he can pinpoint exactly where you are by the sound you make. This makes him a God at Counterstrike (where he will, and does, track people through walls, shooting them) but it's also equally impressive against cloaked skulks, where he will turn a corner and nail a skulk running at him, thinking he's undetected simply because he's cloaked. I have looked over his shoulder and seen him do this, and believe me it's amazing!
On the other hand, I find DCs and MCs disturbingly easy to deal with -- fast upgrades and fast MT counter them both, respectively. However, I imagine if the interface for scan wasn't so clunky (say, all energy was pooled and you could access it in the menu alongside meds and ammo) then it wouldn't be too much of a problem either. As it stands for now, however, scan only lasts for so long and I find rooms with SCs in them possibly the hardest to secure.
That being said, I agree that SCs are difficult to use because they require a LOT of res. Where DCs and MCs need only 3 chambers to be effective, you need SCs all over the map to be effective (unless you want to be really slow and cloakwalk everywhere)
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 22 2003, 08:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 22 2003, 08:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not to mention, I can still take area's from you before you get up 3 sensory chambers...
Here's the build order(build them all close together):
1 IP 1 TFac 1 Obs 1 Armory 1 Pack of mines <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So how do you know the aliens are going to go sensory first? Is it the smell?
Or is this what you always do, regardless of chamber? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
The problem with sensory is not just that the marines have a possible starting build-order that counters it very well. The problem is also that the marines can <i>switch</i> their strategy to counter sensory with very little trouble.
*smells the revival of another "IF YOU DON'T GO SENSORY FIRST YOU'RE A N00B" thread*
*cries* this will never get solved. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Okay, I didn't read all 3 pages of this thread, but in reply to the comment on the first page I thought one of the luxuries for being aliens were, and I quote, "teamplay not as important to aliens as it to marines". But I think sucess for aliens is just as highly depended on teamplay if not MORE THAN THE MARINES.
the only reasons we are loosing to smart marines is... a)normal noob gorges put down dc's before they even think... and b)most people on pub server will call U a noob for placing down an sc or mc, when if u get sc's the kills will go up, ambushes on marines will rise and team co-op will (in some ways) rise aswell...
if u place sc first you gain more than the ability get cloaking all around the map, YOU CAN MAKE THE MARINE COMM DO WHAT U WANT HIM TO DO. he would probebly use his res to build obs and scan areas for skulks.
so this is a message to all of u alien players out there... IF U WANT REDEEMING ONOS, GO DC. IF U WANT TO WIN, GO SC OR MC!!!!!!! (sc for best results) (excuse my language admins... but its true isnt it!?)
Comments
Not to mention the new cloak is cool, now that you can walk, but as soon as you become 5% visible good marines will shoot at you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keep in mind that for marines to win, they have to be coordinated also. My point was, if the kharaa knew what the heck they were doing, they'd definitely work together, and they could make Sensory powerful. Just because Sensory is hard to use doesn't mean it doesn't have potential. Kind of like the fade; it's quite deadly in a master's hands, and quite useless in someone who is only fairly skilled with the fade.
And you're looking for facts, no? ASSUMING that every marine player will identify cloaking is not a fact. Even many experienced players cannot spot cloaking easily.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, yes, because sensory chambers require large sensory networks to be effective, which costs mad res.
And I guarentee you that if your entire team rushes nodes at the start of the game you will lose to a good marine team.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say we'd rush nodes, I just said we'd still have enough res to take the nodes when we wanted.
Secondly, as I've said before, <i>who said anything about a large Sensory network?</i> Cloaking is cheap enough.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What kind of comm drops the node before the area is secure? I'll drop it after it's safe. Once it's up I will electrify it ASAP and the node will stay for a good 7 min.
And if you say you will kill the marines as they build it by cloak walking up to them; again, good marines can see cloak walking aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say you dropped the node before it was secure. I said you had marines go there, then you dropped the node, then they started building, and cloaked skulks happened to be on the roof or something and then killed your marines. Then they took out your res tower before it was even built, and you can't recycle it in time if there are even three skulks, which you will find in a strong kharaa team, WORKING TOGETHER.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Armor lv. 1 , medspam > skulks<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Medspam also > fades, lerks, gorges too. It depends on the medspam. If you drop even 7 medpacks that early in the game, the kharaa will rejoice at your waste of resource.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Funny, everytime I see sensory used results in all but 1-3 nodes taken by the marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm, that's not an argument. That's what you see. And what you see doesn't always happen. I could just as well say that every time I see movement used the marines all suddenly get HA in 1 minute into the game.
Then you counter with teamwork...
Ive played a few good pub games...
Its simply too much for me to be constantly pinging, tracking movements, building, upgrading
When the comm has to start pinging all over, it simply gets crazy to the point where it is neigh impossible to do.... so it is counterable, but you slow the commander down, as he has more things to do
~Jason
In full honesty: If you're comm, and your marines are going to shipping tunnel in ns_caged, would you scan shipping tunnel first, or would you scan the hall that leads to shipping tunnel? Assuming you haven't read what I just posted here.
I in my humble opinion believe that almost all comms would scan shipping tunnel first.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When the comm has to start pinging all over, it simply gets crazy to the point where it is neigh impossible to do.... so it is counterable, but you slow the commander down, as he has more things to do
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And then, of course, SDJason has quite a point.
dont get me wrong ive played in games where aliens have won with sc as first chamber against a farily decent rine side, but in those instances the aliens have managed to secure a second hive before the marine did. but the problm is, what if u arent able to secure a second hive what do you do then? breaking down a 2 hive lock down with only sensry chambers is very hard. and before u say yes but u can use team play, well u can but there a difference 1 onos + 1 lurk + 1 gorge to take a base with DC <u>OR</u> the whole team attacking together at once to take a base down with SC. the aliens just cant afford to do it in that situation to have their entire team at one location to take a base, while the marines have complete freedom all over the map. sure it may get u a hive at the cost of nearly every res node your team owns.
thats why everyone wants dc because in the worst case scenario game DC is the best. and the 1st hive chamber usually has to be DC because the marines will usually try to lock 2 hives down ( well on pubs anyway). u deny aliens hives u dont have to deal with oni stomp which pretty much is the one ability on the onos gets that can turn a game around from a loss to a victory.
dont get me wrong ive played in games where aliens have won with sc as first chamber against a farily decent rine side, but in those instances the aliens have managed to secure a second hive before the marine did. but the problm is, what if u arent able to secure a second hive what do you do then? breaking down a 2 hive lock down with only sensry chambers is very hard. and before u say yes but u can use team play, well u can but there a difference 1 onos + 1 lurk + 1 gorge to take a base with DC <u>OR</u> the whole team attacking together at once to take a base down with SC. the aliens just cant afford to do it in that situation to have their entire team at one location to take a base, while the marines have complete freedom all over the map. sure it may get u a hive at the cost of nearly every res node your team owns.
thats why everyone wants dc because in the worst case scenario game DC is the best. and the 1st hive chamber usually has to be DC because the marines will usually try to lock 2 hives down ( well on pubs anyway). u deny aliens hives u dont have to deal with oni stomp which pretty much is the one ability on the onos gets that can turn a game around from a loss to a victory. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You actually scan the corridor? You're quite a unique commander then. I barely know any commanders who listen carefully to their marines' waypoints and somehow at the same time still manage their base and researching and all at the same time.
As for the 3-5 skulks in shipping, my point, again, was not just any joe who just popped into a public server. Nope, I'm talking about people who are SKILLED with sensory. In other words, ambushing doesn't work well unless you have groups of 2-3 near each other. Either way, skulks are much deadlier that way and should always be played so.
I'm not quite sure about this 2-hive lockdown thing. Many people have brought it up, yet nobody seems to remember what Sensory's main reason is. Is Sensory for ambushing? Yes, in fact, that's it's main asset, but why ambush marines? To get kills? Sometimes. To defend an area? Always. Unless you're cloak-walking into a marine base towards a TF's blind spot. Anways, what I'm saying is that Sensory...if used correctly, is supposed to be anti-worst-case-scenario. Just like every other chamber.
If the kharaa chose Sensory and couldn't prevent the marines from getting two hives, they simply weren't being very tactical. They were probably too predictable and got pinged by the commander multiple times, and since they can't hold off marines anywhere, they let the commander get plenty of resource towers and therefore research Motion Tracking. If that happens, just say gg to the kharaa. They lost the minute they decided to ignore Sensory's strengths.
If Sensory sucks soo badly, which i nearly agree with, why don't u guys with power use your voices and fix it for the rest, so it don't suck nemore?
Has anybody seen any changes in the log that say Sensory is getting a boost?
My brother, however, has gotten so good at interpreting the sounds of the Half Life Engine that he can pinpoint exactly where you are by the sound you make. This makes him a God at Counterstrike (where he will, and does, track people through walls, shooting them) but it's also equally impressive against cloaked skulks, where he will turn a corner and nail a skulk running at him, thinking he's undetected simply because he's cloaked. I have looked over his shoulder and seen him do this, and believe me it's amazing!
On the other hand, I find DCs and MCs disturbingly easy to deal with -- fast upgrades and fast MT counter them both, respectively. However, I imagine if the interface for scan wasn't so clunky (say, all energy was pooled and you could access it in the menu alongside meds and ammo) then it wouldn't be too much of a problem either. As it stands for now, however, scan only lasts for so long and I find rooms with SCs in them possibly the hardest to secure.
That being said, I agree that SCs are difficult to use because they require a LOT of res. Where DCs and MCs need only 3 chambers to be effective, you need SCs all over the map to be effective (unless you want to be really slow and cloakwalk everywhere)
Rhuadin
Here's the build order(build them all close together):
1 IP
1 TFac
1 Obs
1 Armory
1 Pack of mines <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So how do you know the aliens are going to go sensory first? Is it the smell?
Or is this what you always do, regardless of chamber? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
The problem with sensory is not just that the marines have a possible starting build-order that counters it very well. The problem is also that the marines can <i>switch</i> their strategy to counter sensory with very little trouble.
*cries* this will never get solved. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
a)normal noob gorges put down dc's before they even think...
and b)most people on pub server will call U a noob for placing down an sc or mc, when if u get sc's the kills will go up, ambushes on marines will rise and team co-op will (in some ways) rise aswell...
if u place sc first you gain more than the ability get cloaking all around the map, YOU CAN MAKE THE MARINE COMM DO WHAT U WANT HIM TO DO. he would probebly use his res to build obs and scan areas for skulks.
so this is a message to all of u alien players out there... IF U WANT REDEEMING ONOS, GO DC. IF U WANT TO WIN, GO SC OR MC!!!!!!! (sc for best results)
(excuse my language admins... but its true isnt it!?)