Matrix-base Discussion
X_Stickman
Not good enough for a custom title. Join Date: 2003-04-15 Member: 15533Members, Constellation
Not good enough for a custom title. Join Date: 2003-04-15 Member: 15533Members, Constellation
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Basically, who are the bad guys?</div> This isn't a desperatly serious discussion, i'll be honest and say that from the start. However, it would show us some people's views on the world.
In my opinion, the "Bad Guys" in the matric are Neo and the rebels. The only real thing they do is endanger people, and the people they "Save" get taken from blissful ignorance into a world of pain and misery.
Look at the story from the beginning:
Humans invent AI, the AI gets too smart, starts war, humans torch sky, robots take over humans and put them into what is basically a power station. gg, humans lost, yet it was their own fault because they created what destroyed them.
The machines orignally tried to create a perfect matrix. Why? There's no descernable reason as to why. The only thing that i can think of is they wanted humans to be happy, for whatever reason they had. Why create a matrix at all? I mean, what could humans do even if they knew they were being used as slaves? They're inside a bucket. All the machines needed to do was add some handcuffs, and that's that.
But no, the machines try to let the humans live. They give them a "Perfect" life (in the form of the first matrix, the one which didn't work). That one failed, yet they still created a new one instead of just tying people up and leeching their energy.
Then what happens? Somehow (we're never really told how), a human escapes from the Matrix (or may be is freed by people who were never put into it - I've never seen the Animatrix), and starts "Freeing" people. But what is he really freeing them from? He is taking them from a perfect representation of their own world, where they had a life, friends etc (or maybe not, depending on who they really were).
Then flash forward into the newer films: The body count of innocent humans must be very high. All those Guards and SWAT members in the "Lobby" scene for instance. All they knew was there were two very heavily armed people who came in and started killing people. They kill about 30 innocent people just to save Morpheus. Plus the bomb which MUST have killed some people outside the building.
It basically comes down to this: The machines are trying to survive. Humans created them, then tried to destroy them. The machines defended themselves (or attacked, that isn't really relevant), and placed the humans into the matrix. There was no need to do that, they could have just locked them up. Neo and his "krew" just come in and start killing everyone, all the Agents are trying to do is keep order (apart from Smith).
Anyway, those were just some thoughts i had. Basically, i agree with Cypher: Life is better inside the matrix than outside.
Your views?
In my opinion, the "Bad Guys" in the matric are Neo and the rebels. The only real thing they do is endanger people, and the people they "Save" get taken from blissful ignorance into a world of pain and misery.
Look at the story from the beginning:
Humans invent AI, the AI gets too smart, starts war, humans torch sky, robots take over humans and put them into what is basically a power station. gg, humans lost, yet it was their own fault because they created what destroyed them.
The machines orignally tried to create a perfect matrix. Why? There's no descernable reason as to why. The only thing that i can think of is they wanted humans to be happy, for whatever reason they had. Why create a matrix at all? I mean, what could humans do even if they knew they were being used as slaves? They're inside a bucket. All the machines needed to do was add some handcuffs, and that's that.
But no, the machines try to let the humans live. They give them a "Perfect" life (in the form of the first matrix, the one which didn't work). That one failed, yet they still created a new one instead of just tying people up and leeching their energy.
Then what happens? Somehow (we're never really told how), a human escapes from the Matrix (or may be is freed by people who were never put into it - I've never seen the Animatrix), and starts "Freeing" people. But what is he really freeing them from? He is taking them from a perfect representation of their own world, where they had a life, friends etc (or maybe not, depending on who they really were).
Then flash forward into the newer films: The body count of innocent humans must be very high. All those Guards and SWAT members in the "Lobby" scene for instance. All they knew was there were two very heavily armed people who came in and started killing people. They kill about 30 innocent people just to save Morpheus. Plus the bomb which MUST have killed some people outside the building.
It basically comes down to this: The machines are trying to survive. Humans created them, then tried to destroy them. The machines defended themselves (or attacked, that isn't really relevant), and placed the humans into the matrix. There was no need to do that, they could have just locked them up. Neo and his "krew" just come in and start killing everyone, all the Agents are trying to do is keep order (apart from Smith).
Anyway, those were just some thoughts i had. Basically, i agree with Cypher: Life is better inside the matrix than outside.
Your views?
Comments
I dont think so, sometimes you got to have principles.
The red pill symbolizes pain, misery, the real world, the truth, while the blue pill symbolizes pleasure, happiness, the world you can accept, and the false. There's nothing gray about it. You could either accept the life you're used to living, or the life you know is true.
If someone came up and said "I have a secret. If I tell you, it'll ruin your life and you'll jump off a bridge with that fact. If I dont' tell you, you will never know the difference and live your life the way you've been living it." Would you want to know? Most people would reject that secret (rightfully so). But I imagine a small percentage of the population, like Neo, Morpheus, Trinity, and the rest, would rather die than go without knowing the secret.
The daring hero way is to know the truth, but ask yourself if that's really what you'd choose. No shame in wanting to live your life, as much as curiousity would want to get the better of you.
The red pill symbolizes pain, misery, the real world, the truth, while the blue pill symbolizes pleasure, happiness, the world you can accept, and the false. There's nothing gray about it. You could either accept the life you're used to living, or the life you know is true.
If someone came up and said "I have a secret. If I tell you, it'll ruin your life and you'll jump off a bridge with that fact. If I dont' tell you, you will never know the difference and live your life the way you've been living it." Would you want to know? Most people would reject that secret (rightfully so). But I imagine a small percentage of the population, like Neo, Morpheus, Trinity, and the rest, would rather die than go without knowing the secret.
The daring hero way is to know the truth, but ask yourself if that's really what you'd choose. No shame in wanting to live your life, as much as curiousity would want to get the better of you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally would probably take the red pill.
My main point was that Neo, Morpheus and all the other rebels seem to be doing more harm than good. For instance, in Reloaded, when neo is flying to cath Trinity, look at all the stuff being dragged behind him. He must have killed hundreds of people just to save one person.
The freeway chase, again, quite a few people killed just to get the keymaker. In the first film, the helicopter crashes into the side of a building on a busy working day, killing hundreds of people, just to save Morpheus.
Someone must surely see where i'm coming from, i don't think the agents actually "kill" anyone innocent in the films, they just take over their bodies (and if you play the game, you see that they can leave the bodies without any harmful effects too), whereas Neo kills hundreds.
**EDIT**
Sorry, just thought of something else:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->wonder if the scientist will one day find be able to inject a chemical that will trigger joy in your brain, would you allow your body to be stolen, exploited and mutilated<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's anoter one of my points, the machines don't really do anything to the bodies. They keep them in a jar, fair enough, but they don't prematurely kill them. They live out a full life, and die of old age (unless they're killed by something in the matrix).
The machines are good for letting people live out their lives; in a jar <b>irl</b> but live out their "happy" lives in the matrix
And Neo and is crew are bad for killing people in the matrix; thus killing them <b>irl</b>, but also letting them know the truth.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'><b>o.0</b></span>
Did i get that right?
*sarcasm* But he was in love! So what if hundreds of people died and suffered horrible deaths, they were in the way! *sarcasm*
I also notcied the constant need for the Matrix club (dunno what else to call them) to murder innocent people in cold blood and then start talking about how they have to save the human race while standing next to those dead bodies. It's kind of odd that they would put such hippocricy in this movie. IMO they just put it in there so people would go "OoOooOOoWwwWWw!" "AhhHHhHhhHHhhHHhhhHHH!" at their human killing powers. That's Hollywood for you. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
To quote Morpheus, "What if the war could end tomorrow? Isn't that worth fighting for? Isn't that worth dying for?"
EDIT: Typo.
morpheus is deluded and has confused the dozens of people in xion. suxxors for them, hey.
veos gonna get in the core and learn that and, well, thats gonna suck.
"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy.
But when you're inside, you look around and what do you see?
Businessmen, Teachers, Lawyers, Carpenters...the very minds of the
people we're trying to save. But until we do, these people are
still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy. You
have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be
unplugged. And many of them are so innerred, so hopelessly
dependent on the system that they will that they will fight to
protect it. Are you listening to me, Neo? Or were you looking at
the woman in the red dress?...look again"
There are no innocents in the Matrix only slaves to bend to it's will.
This discussion is a lot better than the continuous religion threads <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you dont know you are imprisoned, how can you lack freedom? If you could convince a prisoner that everything in the world was inside the prison, he would feel no need to try to escape. there is nothing to escape to, he is not being treated badly, that is normal.
So you are blaming them for bringing knowledge to the prisoners? It depends on whether you value ignorance above knowledge. I choose knowledge.
So you are blaming them for bringing knowledge to the prisoners? It depends on whether you value ignorance above knowledge. I choose knowledge. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. I would rather be happy than know the truth. Knowledge is all very well, but sometimes its not the best thing for you. Ignorance <i>is</i> bliss.
Nobody has answered my scenario.
What would you do (honestly)?
Is it so important for you to know the truth no matter how horrible the consequence?
Nobody has answered my scenario.
What would you do (honestly)?
Is it so important for you to know the truth no matter how horrible the consequence? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was already explained in the movie, 98% of people will choose to live on with their lives and a few like Neo and the others would choose the truth, I'm pretty sure this holds up in real life, and we can't really answer that question before hand because we have no real idea how that situation would be presented to us.
I don't think the Wachowski brothers took a poll on this, so they don't know what the percentages are. You're right that I think that 1% in the matrix was supposed to represent the ones who would rather know the truth than live better lives.
Nobody has answered my scenario.
What would you do (honestly)?
Is it so important for you to know the truth no matter how horrible the consequence? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless it was something insanely painful like Torture or something, then i would choose to know, but only if it affected me and no one else. Say, to know the truth, all of my loved ones had to be killed, i would be curious but say no. But if it was in a situation like the matrix, then i would want to know the truth. However, like Neo is at first, i would be far more happy living in ignorance.
I would choose the truth. If it is indeed so important that it may change my whole life, I would rather die with it than live in ignorance. Part of the reason I choose the truth while many others would choose ignorance is that I don't have any reluctance to accept death while many others do.
Principle, its means you wouldnt want to have lived anyway, so be it. Besides, only our self-conciousness dies
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides, only our self-conciousness dies <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you mean?
You are saying our body lives on?
As Epidemic stated, principle. I would not kill myself without reason, but with sufficient reason I would. What do I gain? I gain the moment before my death where I know the truth, and yes, that moment of complete truth is more valuable to me than a whole ignorant life.
have a nice life.
the whole next moment of it.
Menix: What would be a secret/truth great enough for you to give your life? Could you state an example? Also, in the case of the Matrix (if you got killed when told the story of "The Real World") Is death really worth being told that your entire life never really happened, and your body will be melted down and fed to other people? That wouldn't be a nice "Final Thought"
Boggle: You say you'd prefer to live your life in (happy) ignorance. But what would you class that as? Say you were kept in a 5ft by 5ft cage for your entire life, being fed, clothed and kept safe and happy. Then someone came along and told you that hey, the world is over a billion times bigger than your little box. You've wasted your life in there. You can stay in there and be "happy" (because you would be if that was all you knew), or you can go outside into the real world, where you can interact with people, but also have the risk of being killed/murdered, dying of some disease, going bankrupt and living on the streets etc... So you've lived your life happily, then someone comes along and says you've wasted it, and the real world quite basically sucks. What about that?
Good things here people. lol