Matrix-base Discussion

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  • EpidemicEpidemic Dark Force Gorge Join Date: 2003-06-29 Member: 17781Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 13 2003, 03:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 13 2003, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if you didnt want to live anyway, why not just kill yourself now and be done with it, instead of waiting to find out that "awful truth"

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides, only our self-conciousness dies <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    What do you mean?

    You are saying our body lives on? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Indeed, our entire body consist of atoms which will never die. We are all part of the whole world, the whole universe and visa-versa. This is proven by science. Some of my atoms might have comed from a dinosaur, a supernova and/or you name it. The world soul if you may. We are eternal and forever (which is quite a nice thought)
  • BogglesteinskyBogglesteinsky Join Date: 2002-12-24 Member: 11488Members
    Why would i want to leave my nice box where i get fed and kept happy if the real world sucks? I am happy here, why should i change?

    If you are happy in your situation, be it a small box or a computer generater simulation, why change? It can only get worse
  • EpidemicEpidemic Dark Force Gorge Join Date: 2003-06-29 Member: 17781Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 13 2003, 03:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 13 2003, 03:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why would i want to leave my nice box where i get fed and kept happy if the real world sucks? I am happy here, why should i change?

    If you are happy in your situation, be it a small box or a computer generater simulation, why change? It can only get worse <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It's simple, truth matters. Being happy is just a feeling, but for some, the truth matters more.
  • HawkeyeHawkeye Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1855Members
    You're changing the scenario a bit. To say the real world is "so much better" with risks isn't the scenario. The scenario is that you find out you've been living happily in this little box all your life only to find out about the real world out there. Once you leave your box, you're shut out and can't return. The real world sucks, and you are never happy ever again. Is that worth finding out?

    As far as you're concerned in that box, you're happy and you couldn't be happier. Does it matter what is outside the box? I mean I think the question you should be asking yourself is, is the goal of your life the pursuit of knowledge or the pursuit of happiness? Which means more?
  • BogglesteinskyBogglesteinsky Join Date: 2002-12-24 Member: 11488Members
    edited October 2003
    fine, epidemic.

    If thats the way they want to live, thats alright. So long as they dont interfere with me and my box, im fine with it
  • AegeriAegeri Join Date: 2003-02-13 Member: 13486Members
    I would rather find out what is outside of my box than live in a lie.

    Even if the outside is worse, the truth to me matters infinitely more. In addition to this, with so much outside to see and experience (compared to my box) it is no wonder that I would want out (to me).
  • MenixMenix Join Date: 2003-09-13 Member: 20828Members
    edited October 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--X_Stickman+Oct 13 2003, 04:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (X_Stickman @ Oct 13 2003, 04:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Menix: What would be a secret/truth great enough for you to give your life? Could you state an example? Also, in the case of the Matrix (if you got killed when told the story of "The Real World") Is death really worth being told that your entire life never really happened, and your body will be melted down and fed to other people? That wouldn't be a nice "Final Thought" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The scenario stated that the truth revealed would cause me to commit suicide. While I can think of no such knowledge, I accepted the premise so that I could answer the question. And yes, it would be a magnificient final thought to know that you die with the truth after escaping from a life of lies.

    [edit: spelling]
  • EpidemicEpidemic Dark Force Gorge Join Date: 2003-06-29 Member: 17781Members
    Not to mention that inside the matrix you can be taken over any second, they can control your whole life. This is not happiness. But I think we need to turn the focus over to the people that Neo and crew is killing instead of asking ourselves what we would do.
  • X_StickmanX_Stickman Not good enough for a custom title. Join Date: 2003-04-15 Member: 15533Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Epidemic+Oct 13 2003, 09:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Oct 13 2003, 09:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not to mention that inside the matrix you can be taken over any second, they can control your whole life. This is not happiness. But I think we need to turn the focus over to the people that Neo and crew is killing instead of asking ourselves what we would do. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The agents only need to take over people's bodies BECAUSE of neo and his group, which brings me back to my point: The world would be a lot happier without the Rebels.
  • MenixMenix Join Date: 2003-09-13 Member: 20828Members
    The machines keep innocent human consciousnesses imprisoned. The rebels fight against the machine to let those who are imprisoned know the truth and to let them escape if they desire. Since this is a war against the machines, and the war is justified because of the human imprisonment, the death of innocent matrix dwellers is justified.
  • EpidemicEpidemic Dark Force Gorge Join Date: 2003-06-29 Member: 17781Members
    Doesn't really change the fact that you <i>can</i> be taken over, something I could never live with.
    What Neo and the rebels are doing is the fight for freedom, it may have casualties. Just alike the enemy army you're fighting against (in IRL) They are the enemy but they are really innocent but dragged into this. Yes we remorse it, but it something that needs to be done anyhow. Only the truth will grant you freedom. What will you choose? Living in dreamworld where we gets our senses stimulated by some machines while providing them energy or freedom and truth
  • WindelkronWindelkron Join Date: 2002-04-11 Member: 419Members
    edited October 2003
    When we wonder if it's ok for them to kill all those people in the Matrix...
    I see it as the people they kill were dead from the moment they were grown. Because in real life, they will never do anything except sit in a jar until they die. I'm for euthanasia <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    And besides, many of the people the matrix krew kill are trying to kill the krew, so the krew is acting in self defense...

    Oh, and about when Neo is flying dragging people behind him....

    <b><span style='color:red'><i><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>STOP!</span><span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'> In the</span><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>naaaame</span><span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>of loooove!!</span></i></span></b>
  • HawkeyeHawkeye Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1855Members
    Well remember the choice Neo made? That was significant.

    He could A) Save the world or B) Save trinity. He chose to save trinity OVER saving the world. So yeah, I think it is safe to say he would rather kill those people than let trinity die. Most people would have chosen to save humanity, but the entire moral of the matrix story is that the one trait which distinguishes us from machines is that we have these irrational feelings.
  • EpidemicEpidemic Dark Force Gorge Join Date: 2003-06-29 Member: 17781Members
    Assuming The Architect was telling the truth <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--X_Stickman+Oct 13 2003, 05:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (X_Stickman @ Oct 13 2003, 05:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Epidemic+Oct 13 2003, 09:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Oct 13 2003, 09:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not to mention that inside the matrix you can be taken over any second, they can control your whole life. This is not happiness. But I think we need to turn the focus over to the people that Neo and crew is killing instead of asking ourselves what we would do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The agents only need to take over people's bodies BECAUSE of neo and his group, which brings me back to my point: The world would be a lot happier without the Rebels. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Reminds me of the book 1984. You should read that <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • TyrsisTyrsis Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8804Members
    If you've seen the Animatrix movies (all of them), they give a lot of insight into the "why". The humans created machines and enslaved them, they eventually revolted just like the humans are doing now. Eventually after a great "cleansing" (basically genocide), the remaining machines moved to a remote part of the world where they were allowed to be a "nation". Though eventually their economy expanded extremely fast while the human economy drowned. Humans once again decided to destroy the machines, but the machines were way too powerful at that point. So the humans scorched the sky hoping to slow them, and the machines started to disect the humans to figure out how their brains worked, so they could find a way to harvest energy from human bodies. I'm not entirely sure if they touched on why they wanted to keep them alive and thinking, but probably has to do with the fact that a human that actively thinks creates more energy then a human that is chained up, and is miserable. The other stuff was explained in movies 1 and 2. First matrix failed because there can't be bliss without misery. Humans can't accept perfection because they are inheriently imperfect. So the second matrix is based on imperfection, which allows every so often "The One" to be created. At which point the one is given a choice which answer is obviously logical. Of course all the previous "One"'s chose the logical answer, and died, and the matrix restarted, while neo chose the illogical choice, blah blah blah, you've seen the movies.

    That being said, one question posed was, "Why would you want to escape blissful ignorance in order to be thrown into a world as desolate as the real world in the matrix?". Which kind of makes me scratch my head. If you knew what you life was a complete lie, why would you want to continue living that way? If you were captured in some war in real life, would you not want to be set free in some way? Even if you were treated very well, in the end you still have no real free will.

    The Animatrix movies had a few other small movies that were very interesting that touched a lot on the search for the truth and the search to propel the humanity forward. For example in one movie there was this runner who wanted to be the fastest in the world. At one point he was given the choice: You can beat the world record and be the fastest in the world, but never be able to walk/run again, or you can run normally but never beat the world record. Naturally he chose the former, since that's what he wanted to do all his life, be the best he could be, at all costs. Not everyone can be like the runner, and it was a sort of good way of showing the type of person Neo was, and all those who fought with all they had to get out of the Matrix.

    As far as my thoughts on the original question. Neo et all are fighting a war. All's fair in love and war. Which is interesting since for both love and war, Neo ends up killing innocents <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->.

    As far as who's really the bad guys in the movie question. It depends on your perspective. Do you feel the US is evil for killing innocent Iraqi's in order to liberate them from Saddam? Some would say yes, some would say no, it's mostly an opinion based in bias really. The Animatrix movies show the humans as being extremely evil by basically commiting genocide on the machines (in order to protect themself from dying of course) when they learn to think for themselves. And then the machines are being evil for enslaving the humans so they can harvest energy (again in order to protect themselves from dying). And even those two things can be argued in terms of if it's actually evil or good.

    Tyrsis
  • RatRat Join Date: 2002-12-24 Member: 11486Members
    Pertinent excerpts from Thomas Jefferson's letter to William Smith 13 November 1787

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'> And can history produce an instance of rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.</span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>What country before ever existed a century & a half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants</span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I believe these words wholeheartedly. If they know the truth and choose to do nothing, the rebels have done more harm with that apathy than they could ever conceivably do in rebellion. I view the revolution of the colonies in the same fashion, as well as other rebellions over time. If they're truly intent upon bringing about better conditions for their fellow man, then they are doing the right thing in my eyes.
  • XzilenXzilen Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11642Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Menix+Oct 12 2003, 04:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Menix @ Oct 12 2003, 04:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The only guilty humans are already dead. What the machines are doing to the new born humans is imprisoning them for no crime. Freeing an innocent consciousnes from the tyranny of imprisonment is good. They are not forced to leave the matrix, since they are given a choice, a choice which the machines never gave them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes. Lets all look at the New Hampershire motto. "Live free or die"

    Stickman, I used to think the same thing, which was odd. I mean, the Humans had just about nothing outside of the Matrix, but if you saw how happy they were with their simple social events that they have down in Zion..... Yea....
  • XzilenXzilen Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11642Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 13 2003, 03:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 13 2003, 03:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why would i want to leave my nice box where i get fed and kept happy if the real world sucks? I am happy here, why should i change?

    If you are happy in your situation, be it a small box or a computer generater simulation, why change? It can only get worse <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    How do we know that everyone IS happy in the Matrix. I bet depression still excists, even if its simulated =)
  • dr_ddr_d Join Date: 2003-03-28 Member: 14979Members
    edited October 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Xzilen+Oct 14 2003, 12:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xzilen @ Oct 14 2003, 12:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 13 2003, 03:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 13 2003, 03:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why would i want to leave my nice box where i get fed and kept happy if the real world sucks? I am happy here, why should i change?

    If you are happy in your situation, be it a small box or a computer generater simulation, why change? It can only get worse <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    How do we know that everyone IS happy in the Matrix. I bet depression still excists, even if its simulated =) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The point was all the rebels never felt they were part of the Matrix, just like Neo had "a splinter in his mind", everyone who choose to leave the Matrix never felt like they belonged there. There's a difference between someone depressed in the Matrix and someone who is completely out of place because of an "unbalanced equation". It would be like you sitting at your computer and nothing would feel right, the monitor wouldn't look right, the keys wouldn't feel real, and everything would be like when you realize you're dreaming right before you wake up, only you can't wake up.

    So in essence they all made the choice to leave before it was ever given to them, they all searched for Morpheus, they all felt out of place, and they were all looking for the answer to the question, its the question that drives them <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • BlackMageBlackMage [citation needed] Join Date: 2003-06-18 Member: 17474Members, Constellation
    edited October 2003
    the real question would be: would you accept a reality that you didn't know was false, that you know nothing outside of?

    ofcourse you wouldn't, if i were to tell you that the world as you know it is a fake and told you to take a pill (and if i had people with guns and suits chasing me) to know the truth what woudl you do? why, because you have accepted this world as real and are (most unlikely) willing to trade what you know as reality for what could possibly be death, or something that comes after you take pills from crazy people ... yech
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