coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited October 2003
<span style='color:white'>Topic: played out.
Posters: attacking one another.
coil: back on duty.</span>
This is the last time I ask y'all to post regarding the topic on-hand: the pope's a-factual statement about condoms, and its effect on the world (especially on undeveloped, undereducated countries coping with AIDS epidemics). Next time you fall off the topic or start baiting one another, say 'night 'night.
My personal opinion? The Church has a duty to help all mankind... it frequently stands behind the most educated people in 3rd-world countries (that is, for example, the priests who go to Africa to "enlighten" the native people are far more educated than the people they preach to). This dichotomy - educated vs. not - is a dangerous state of affairs, and the Church HAS to act responsibly as its representatives are looked up to as community leaders. Those they preach to frequently don't even have the knowledge to question them, and therefore they take everything they are told at face value.
When the Church tells a blatant falsehood like this, it is betraying all those who put faith in it as a beacon of light, truth, ethics, morals, and a better world. Such a lie from arguably the single most respected individual on the planet is simply unbelievable to me. Simply unbelievable.
Coil, could you (or someone) explain exactly what the falsehood told by the pope was? I've got the originally linked article in front of me and it looks like the cardinal in question didn't say anything that was untrue. I also don't see mention anywhere of the Pope himself weighing in on the issue.
Nowhere does it appear that anyone said that condoms are <i>useless</i> against AIDS. The guy just said they aren't <i>foolproof</i>. Now, if some people misconstrue this as meaning "it doesn't matter whether you use condoms or not, so go have lots of unprotected sex," that's bad, but it's also very obviously the <i>opposite</i> of what he was trying to promote, which was abstinence.
I get the feeling I'm missing something here, because it seems obvious to me that the cardinal was NOT promoting unsafe sex, but everyone else seems to think he was. Fill me in, please.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
I quoted the whole article I read on <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=50465&st=15' target='_blank'>page 2 of this thread</a>, but here are a few "highlights" (or lowlights, take your pick): <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because <i>they have tiny holes in them through which the HIV virus can pass </i>- potentially exposing thousands of people to risk... ...The church is making the claims across four continents despite a <i>widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to the HIV virus</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Denying evolution for lack of evidence is one thing. Denying existing EXTENSIVE research because it doesn't help your idealistic world view is practically criminal negligence. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom." - president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->There is no "net." It's latex. *Water* can't pass through... how should a virus? <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In Kenya - where an estimated 20% of people have the HIV virus - the church condemns condoms for promoting promiscuity and repeats the claim about permeability.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Where it can do the most harm. People *do* have sex. Condoms help prevent AIDS. Scare them away from using condoms, and do you think they'll stop having sex? <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's another quote: "IX. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." Translated: <i><b>don't lie</b></i>. Source: the Ten Commandments. Go figure.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no "net." It's latex.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> To the contrary, there can be no doubt that latex polymeres have pores of varying sizes. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Latex gloves offer little protection from chemicals because the pore size of the latex polymer used in gloves is highly variable in size and distrubution. This can clearly be seen if you take a latex glove and stretch it. The pattern of lighter areas and darker areas represent the variance in the polymer. The pore size of the latex molecule will also tend to pass solvents very easily. -- <a href='http://www.cwru.edu/finadmin/does/web/ChemSafety/gloves.htm' target='_blank'>Source</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The average pore size of a condom is apparently 5 to 10 times larger than the diameter of a HI virus, which measures about 100 nanometres. Of course, a water molecule is even smaller than a HIV, so the mere size is of little significance. There are many strong intramolecular forces at work in the microworld, and their effect on permeability must be examined. <a href='http://www.siam.org/siamnews/04-98/fda.htm' target='_blank'>This research</a> describes the complexity of the problem in somewhat understandable terms.
Shall I accuse you of lying now because you were misinformed about scientific details?
Something feels wrong with this article. I'm not saying that it's from a biased site , but it seems they are trying to prove that the HIV can be transmitted at all costs.
They're not considering the transmission time , too. It's not like the HIV would "hurry" to go through the pores. So unless they prove that the virus is transmitted through latex despite a short exposure , the condom is no less effective (at least if correctly used)
Comments
Posters: attacking one another.
coil: back on duty.</span>
This is the last time I ask y'all to post regarding the topic on-hand: the pope's a-factual statement about condoms, and its effect on the world (especially on undeveloped, undereducated countries coping with AIDS epidemics). Next time you fall off the topic or start baiting one another, say 'night 'night.
My personal opinion? The Church has a duty to help all mankind... it frequently stands behind the most educated people in 3rd-world countries (that is, for example, the priests who go to Africa to "enlighten" the native people are far more educated than the people they preach to). This dichotomy - educated vs. not - is a dangerous state of affairs, and the Church HAS to act responsibly as its representatives are looked up to as community leaders. Those they preach to frequently don't even have the knowledge to question them, and therefore they take everything they are told at face value.
When the Church tells a blatant falsehood like this, it is betraying all those who put faith in it as a beacon of light, truth, ethics, morals, and a better world. Such a lie from arguably the single most respected individual on the planet is simply unbelievable to me. Simply unbelievable.
Nowhere does it appear that anyone said that condoms are <i>useless</i> against AIDS. The guy just said they aren't <i>foolproof</i>. Now, if some people misconstrue this as meaning "it doesn't matter whether you use condoms or not, so go have lots of unprotected sex," that's bad, but it's also very obviously the <i>opposite</i> of what he was trying to promote, which was abstinence.
I get the feeling I'm missing something here, because it seems obvious to me that the cardinal was NOT promoting unsafe sex, but everyone else seems to think he was. Fill me in, please.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because <i>they have tiny holes in them through which the HIV virus can pass </i>- potentially exposing thousands of people to risk... ...The church is making the claims across four continents despite a <i>widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to the HIV virus</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Denying evolution for lack of evidence is one thing. Denying existing EXTENSIVE research because it doesn't help your idealistic world view is practically criminal negligence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom." - president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->There is no "net." It's latex. *Water* can't pass through... how should a virus?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In Kenya - where an estimated 20% of people have the HIV virus - the church condemns condoms for promoting promiscuity and repeats the claim about permeability.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Where it can do the most harm. People *do* have sex. Condoms help prevent AIDS. Scare them away from using condoms, and do you think they'll stop having sex?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's another quote: "IX. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." Translated: <i><b>don't lie</b></i>. Source: the Ten Commandments. Go figure.
To the contrary, there can be no doubt that latex polymeres have pores of varying sizes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Latex gloves offer little protection from chemicals because the pore size of the latex polymer used in gloves is highly variable in size and distrubution. This can clearly be seen if you take a latex glove and stretch it. The pattern of lighter areas and darker areas represent the variance in the polymer. The pore size of the latex molecule will also tend to pass solvents very easily.
-- <a href='http://www.cwru.edu/finadmin/does/web/ChemSafety/gloves.htm' target='_blank'>Source</a>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The average pore size of a condom is apparently 5 to 10 times larger than the diameter of a HI virus, which measures about 100 nanometres. Of course, a water molecule is even smaller than a HIV, so the mere size is of little significance. There are many strong intramolecular forces at work in the microworld, and their effect on permeability must be examined. <a href='http://www.siam.org/siamnews/04-98/fda.htm' target='_blank'>This research</a> describes the complexity of the problem in somewhat understandable terms.
Shall I accuse you of lying now because you were misinformed about scientific details?
They're not considering the transmission time , too. It's not like the HIV would "hurry" to go through the pores. So unless they prove that the virus is transmitted through latex despite a short exposure , the condom is no less effective (at least if correctly used)