Having the marines only need 3 res nodes to win is utter crap, to be frank. The aliens shouldn't need 7+ res nodes to keep up with a decent marine response.
But assuming you aren't: there is no such resource problem. I don't know what servers you've been playing on, but if the marines have three nodes and the aliens have seven, the marines must be either very good or the aliens very stupid to for the marines to win.
Actually he's partially right. In a large game, > 20 players if the marines have 3 RTs and just keep pushing the aliens slowly the marines' res will be superior in most cases due to res to kill.
NS games with any more than 18 players are completly broken. Balance goes out the window in those circumstances. If a server has more than 18 max players, avoid the server. Because it will be wildly unbalanced.
Yes there is a problem as you can see in this <a href='http://www.froggeh.com/ns_resflow.txt' target='_blank'>Alien Res Flow Chart</a> number in () is alien team size number after fade is cost(fade cost may change, possibly to 60?)
I've been pushing for a fix in the alien res equation so that alien team size didn't have an impact on balance. I'm finally getting responses from other Pters so hopefully it will be fixed for 2.1
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then how come on the battleforthegalaxy server (30 people limit) the games are some of the most equal I've ever played?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because the marines are horrible and the aliens are slowed down enough
The large the game the more the marines will have an advantage, whats the perfect balance number I dont know. Somewhere between 6 per team and 8-10 I'd say 9v9 or 8v8 is the closest I've seen to balanced, but 6 or 7 seem fairly balanced too. 15 per team is incredibly unbalanced if marines are not winning practically every game then the teams must unbalance to make the games even.
The aliens only need 7 res nodes if they keep evolving to lerk/fade/onos and then die constantly. Dumb fades can die to a lone upgraded lmg marine with a med pack or 2. Maybe YOU aren't the dumb fade but most likely the rest of your team is. I think anything more than 4 total res nodes is just insurance for an alien team. Play smart and you most likely wont need anymore. Remember that the more time your team spends capping, the more time it allows the marine team to cap. You need to find a balance between getting res and pressuring the marine res. If your team doesn't have an all star lineup, just keep the marines occupied til you get the 3rd hive, instead of losing all in a half *** base rush.
<!--QuoteBegin--Lucid+Oct 16 2003, 09:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lucid @ Oct 16 2003, 09:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The aliens only need 7 res nodes if they keep evolving to lerk/fade/onos and then die constantly. Dumb fades can die to a lone upgraded lmg marine with a med pack or 2. Maybe YOU aren't the dumb fade but most likely the rest of your team is. I think anything more than 4 total res nodes is just insurance for an alien team. Play smart and you most likely wont need anymore. Remember that the more time your team spends capping, the more time it allows the marine team to cap. You need to find a balance between getting res and pressuring the marine res. If your team doesn't have an all star lineup, just keep the marines occupied til you get the 3rd hive, instead of losing all in a half *** base rush. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i agree here. if your a bad **** skulk you could go fade with in 3 minutes of a game and if you dont die, well the rines will have a hard enough time keeping you away from thier res that they need, and im my opinion the rines need more res then the aliens because of the pool for the rines and is distributed, and the aliens single based. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes there is a problem as you can see in this <a href='http://www.froggeh.com/ns_resflow.txt' target='_blank'>Alien Res Flow Chart</a> number in () is alien team size number after fade is cost(fade cost may change, possibly to 60?)
I've been pushing for a fix in the alien res equation so that alien team size didn't have an impact on balance. I'm finally getting responses from other Pters so hopefully it will be fixed for 2.1
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then how come on the battleforthegalaxy server (30 people limit) the games are some of the most equal I've ever played?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because the marines are horrible and the aliens are slowed down enough
At the moment NS is balanced best at about 8v8. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Interesting.
I agree that the alien res formula should always be the same to make a more balanced game.
I saw those numbers, and I must say, I'm quite partial to the 8 man team forumula. Fades that come by 6:40 with just two nodes vs. 8 marines sounds quite nice.
However, upping fade costs I do not like. Fades are nessesary to take down early electrified RT's, and other fortifications made by marines. Without early fades, it kills a lot of alien offensives short of a gorge/lerk rush.
In your PlayTesting, try out a fade cost of 55 res. That would mean at 4 nodes, a 55 res fade would take 4 min, not 3:20, and not 4:40 (which I feel may be too long). Try playing with 55 res fade and a 60 res fade. See what works best.
<!--QuoteBegin--Frogg2+Oct 16 2003, 08:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frogg2 @ Oct 16 2003, 08:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes there is a problem as you can see in this <a href='http://www.froggeh.com/ns_resflow.txt' target='_blank'>Alien Res Flow Chart</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't actually subscribe to your res model fix frog. Correct me if i'm wrong but your idea is based around fixing the amount of resources per time period that each alien recieves, regardless of the number of players?
There are some serious problems with this idea. You're using the example of how long it would take a player to reach fade with each differing team size, however you're ignoring resources spent on other things that effect the entire team. To use the extreme example of a 1on1, smallest possible team sizes: Your idea is to alter resource income in this situation so that the 1 alien will recieve the same amount of res/time as a single alien in a 6on6 would recieve. This would cripple the alien player.
The alien economy relies on the use of each player's resources to build structures that benefit the whole team. Some people spend their res on RTs, some on chambers, some on the 2nd hive, and some save for higher evolutions. When you have smaller team sizes, the additional players who would normally be spending their resources on chambers etc. are lost. In a 1on1, with only 1 person on the alien team, this 1 person has the responsibility of building the RTs, the chambers, the hive AND evolving to a higher lifeform for combat purposes. If this single player gets the same amount of resources as a single player in a 6on6 gets, he obviously cannot perform this task. He will only have 1 set of starting res to play with, his 25, and after that his income is a trickle. If he saves for fade, he will have no other players to spend their resources on RTs or chambers, and after 10 minutes will have the 50 res to go fade, with 1 hive and no upgrades.
The current system, where this single player recieves the resources that an entire 6 man team would get in a 6v6, is the only way for the single alien player to fund the alien tech tree, by giving him enough resources to drop RTs, chambers and a 2nd hive. However it is abusable by simply pooling the res and going onos very early in the game. There is no way to avoid this with the individual alien res pool. As long as aliens have individual resources, and as long as the tech tree and evolution costs are set at the level required by this, there will always be significant differences between the economies of large and small games.
My example of a 1on1 is extreme, but does represent the differences your system will make to slightly smaller, and slightly larger teams. No matter how you do it, as long as the aliens have individual resource pools, the alien economy in large and small games will either be seriously abusable or horribly crippled.
Under the current system, it is arguable that the Alien team has an economy advantage in both very large, and very small teams, for 2 completely different reasons:
In small teams, as you've demonstrated, although the amount of total resources available to a small team is bang on the money, the fact that it is not divided out between so few people means certain expensive purchases become available much earlier than they should be.
In large teams, the aliens have access to an abnormally large amount of starting resources. Here, the system is abused by investing your teams resources in lots of small purchases. By making use of the masses of starting res, you can have 3 upgrade chambers, plenty of resource nodes and a mass of OCs on the map right at the start of the game. And probably still have someone who hasn't spent their 25 around to drop the 2nd hive.
Under your proposed system, the small alien team gets so little combined res that it cannot fund its tech tree, while the large alien team gets considerably more total resources than the marine team in addition to their starting res advantage. You can't win with this, there's no way to make NS play the same in each team size without a total overhaul of the alien team.
although i only rarely read these forums (and therefore am not familiar with froggs proposal) i would say that what TeoH posted is so damn true. couldnt have said it better myself <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
also i tend to play 8v8 games mostly (at least in public games) and find that if either team gets more than around 4 resource nodes then it starts to tilt in their favour, although i believe it is easier for aliens to turn it around in public games due to some people saving for onos, and killing the marine's prototype lab and armoury. but usually when it gets to both teams having around 4-3 nodes each, it just relies on the skill of each team, which is as it should be.
obviously it doesnt work out all the time, especially in larger or smaller games, but i havnt seen any proposals that would fix the system as some think is necessary while still leaving a potential for skill to decide the outcome of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 16 2003, 09:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 16 2003, 09:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> At the moment NS is balanced best at about 8v8.
I'm quite partial to the 8 man team forumula. Fades that come by 6:40 with just two nodes vs. 8 marines sounds quite nice.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i think putting teams of 8v8 for scrims and such would be good in all areas, for the clans more ppl could play and work as a team better, and i think it would make the game go faster than it is now. but well see. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then how come on the battleforthegalaxy server (30 people limit) the games are some of the most equal I've ever played? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Errr...all I can say is crap marines. On the local servers here in Australia, aliens get beaten to a fine pulp in large games if the marines have any measure of teamwork (which they almost always do). The only way marines lose on a 30 player game is if they want to lose. It's well nigh imossible for the aliens to win on these servers against a marine team equally committed to a victory.
Sure the reason the alien res system hasnt been changed to a per person basis is because of how this gets dramtaically screwed in small games. However isnt that what combat is for now? Surely theres gona be hardly any small games of vanilla ns after 2.1 since combat will take over in that role? If so i see no obstacles to making alien res on a per person basis
Here's how it usually goes, even on Lunixmonster, with 7-8 on 7-8 teams. Aliens grab some resource nodes, marines don't budge. After a few minutes, the marines make a half-assed grab at some nodes, maybe they'll take a few. Aliens usually have about 5 at this point, give or take one. Marines begin to tech up, aliens still run around harassing marines as lerks, gorges, skulks.
Perhaps at some point in the game the marines begin loosing resource towers, usually directly related to the second hive going up / a player goes fade.
Do the marines do anything? Not usually. What's one resource node? They'll generally destroy a few alien towers and the aliens freak and try to defend it. Why? Because the 15 res for a tower on the alien team is worth MUCH more then 15 res is to the commander. Let's say the aliens win this round: They've destroyed all but two resource towers, and are mopping the marines out of their third hive. They smash them and prepare to drop the third hive. Now the marines have one resource node (Maybe 2). Out comes the HA.
Wait a second, that's like half the alien team going onos from only one resource node. And frankly, it'd take what? Twice as long for them to go onos then it takes for the marines to tote out HA and HMGS? I dont' see the aliens going fade and lerk when THEY only have one resource node... but when the marines have one resource node, they'll be dropping guns and armor, turrets, etc. just to drag out the game.
In all the posts I've seen on this subject, the idea is to raise the amount of res aliens get, leaving the marine res setup intact. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Kinda odd.
I'm quite sure I've seen good marine teamwork on the battle for the galaxy server. The marines do use teamwork yet somehow the aliens still manage to wipe us all out...
Perhaps its because the aliens there use sensory well. (God I hate that upgrade)
Teo also remember that with larger games marines can cover the map alot better.
To get decent res flow in say a 32 player server, the alien team has to put up and cover 4-5 nodes, that can be very difficult if the marines are hunting your rts in a pack/packs, and even if the alien team can hold their nodes, and get several fades, they aren't as effective against 15 marines as they are against 5 marines.
Meanwhile it is alot easier for a small alien team to cover the map compared to a small marine team.
In 1v1 play a marine has to be the commander and marines at the same time. So he has to place an rt walk to it hope the alien didn't find it build it then go back to base and hope the alien didn't kill his base.
I'm not saying it's a perfect fix but it does fix quite a few problems.
---
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm quite sure I've seen good marine teamwork on the battle for the galaxy server. The marines do use teamwork yet somehow the aliens still manage to wipe us all out...
Perhaps its because the aliens there use sensory well. (God I hate that upgrade)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like a problem of not having decent comms...
<!--QuoteBegin--SoulSkorpion+Oct 16 2003, 05:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Oct 16 2003, 05:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, you're not curious. You're flamebaiting.
But assuming you aren't: there is no such resource problem. I don't know what servers you've been playing on, but if the marines have three nodes and the aliens have seven, the marines must be either very good or the aliens very stupid to for the marines to win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, if what we call serious discussion is flamebait then I should've quit this community....before release 1.
My experience in 2.0 is numerous loss as commander. You could say I suck, but you would be wrong. Trying to get marines to surive on 2 res nodes is near impossible. Notice how there is....virtually NO competitve clans for NS? Coincidence? I think not. And to be frank its dissapointing. 1.04 was a great great game, in fact besides bug fixes 2.0 has become worse. I can only hope my honesty in experience can better this game somehow. Now then, here are my observations
1.)Resource model
-Limits tactics greatly for the marines. A lot of crazy tactics used to work before. 1.0 had the flexibility. You could HA train, you could jetpack, or tech up and shotgun, sneak attacks, etc. All I see now is HA trains. Wow the excitement is breathtaking. The resources for the marines are a joke. 2 resources every tick. Aliens can rack it in alot faster, for example: The Marine team gets between 1-3 res per kill. Aliens get...1-3*players. Hmm....problem here? My solution is eliminating Alien RFK, and allow overflowing. This will limit gorges of course, but at this point I think thats a good idea. Scaling of resource points per player level would even the field, as aliens already need 7 nodes to do anything. (Which isn't hard to get, already.) Several build times could be tweaked to allow for this. Marines should get 2 resources at all times from nodes.
2.)Crimping effect for marines
-The first and only time marines get pinned down, the game is over. Just as they begin to recover and explore, Ooops onos comes trampling in. The core of the problems in 2.0 reflect the actual resource model, anyone too ignorant to admit it needs to reevaluate the game in a more open mind.
3.)Nerf-Beef treatment of the "classes"
-In the past there were some issues with strength and weakness. However, I feel the real problem isn't in the characters abilitys, its the ease of its aquisition. Onos in 10 minutes...is game over each time the aliens get them. I've had several people harp to me. "NEWB DONT LET ALIENS GET RES NODE" Well, gee, the only way to properly outfit my teammates is to spend the money on upgrades and shotguns, then expect the public players to hold at a node for about 5 minutes begging him not to run away and die. It just dosen't work.
4.)Commanding is a chore, not fun. -Commanding should be fun, and not the "Oh man, why me" part. There shouldn't BE a part like that. Something should be done to make it more appealing. The common problem in these times are nobody wanting to command, I for one can't blame them.
In conclusion, my perfect world NS would be 1.04 system, 2.0 bug fixes, 2.0 fade, 2.0 graphical and sound improvments, 2.1 Onos. That's just my opinion there however. What a joyous day for the aliens as it is though... In all honesty its getting really repetitive. For marines my experience is Die, die again, lose, command, die,. WIN A GAME...because the aliens left.
I can't wait to be flamed, but then again, what does that prove... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Another solution to larger/smaller games and making res flow ALWAYS equal for each team would be to do this:
Each team's number of max res nodes are equal to the team size. If it's a 1v1, it would be each team getting only res from only one node even if they had 10. The only purpose to capping nodes would be to make sure the enemy can't cap it, and in case your other node dies.
So basically, what my system will do for the aliens:
Make it so one individual alien can't get more than 1 res every tick.
This will make it important on small NS games to kill more than be about spamming buildings, and on large NS games res nodes will remain just as important.
Next, the reason marines own on large games is because of the arms lab. I'll say it once, and I'll say it again, marines get WAY too much of an upgrade from at the arms lab for their cost. 20 res to upgrade 10-15 rine's firepower, which stacks? This is extreme.
Here is the solution, quoted from me as posted in another thread:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Arms Lab Unproportionality(Is that even a word? Heh.)
This one is simple.
Lets say, for arguments sake, the most balanced size of an NS game is 6v6. This is clan standard.
Now the arms lab currently (as of 2.01b) is 20/30/40. This is all fine and dandy.
Lets say the game is now 12v12. Arms lab is still 20/30/40. Anyone here see the imbalance? It’s not hard to spot out.
On larger games(8v8 or more), the arms lab is more than worth it’s cost. You upgrade all of your marines for a fraction of the cost of what buying them all equipment would be, and it’s much more effective as there are more guns that get the upgrades. In smaller games(4v4 or less), the arms lab is crap compared to outfitting your 3-4 marines with some good equipment. Arms lab will still be important in small games, however, it comes second to equipment. And the opposite is true in large games.
The Arms Lab, believe it or not, is what causes a lot of unbalancing on large and small games right now, it’s either too good or too bad. On large games, you see stalemates quite often because aliens can’t hope to compete with marines that come out of spawn that shred them to pieces easily, even with an LMG, as there is such a high volume of it all. That is why large games almost never end early, as marines get their arms lab upgrades for too good of a cost, and they get them all very quickly, resulting in marines that generally cannot do well on attack, but pretty much own on defense, forcing aliens to get their third hive for some uber powerful abilities (or if the aliens chose sensory first so they can get Def or Move chambers).
So, the fix for the arms lab is to make it proportional to the amount of marines playing.
For 6 marines, the cost is 20/30/40.
For 12 marines, you have double the marines, and thus, the upgrades should cost 40/60/80.
For 3 marines, you have half the marines, and thus, the upgrades should cost 10/15/20.
However, just by looking at the numbers presented here I’m sure all the commanders must be dropping their Jaw’s onto the floor screaming: “NO WAY! 40 res for the first set of upgrades? TOO MUCH!” Or… “10 res on a 3 man server? It’s practically free ffs!” And, for the most part, they are right.
So, a small modification to the above said proposal: Only add/subtract 50% additional cost for every 100% increase/decrease in marines.
12 marines: 30/45/60 3 marines: 15/23/30
This is a formula that needs to be calculated, one that figures out the cost of the arms labs upgrades based on how many marines there are.
An easy way to calculate the costs of these upgrades if you are without a calculator is:
For every 3 marines lost/gained over 6, add/subtract 5 res for the first upgrade, add/subtract 7 res for the second upgrade, and add/subtract 10 res for the third upgrade.
Very simple, and this would balance out the arms lab completely, no matter the teamsize. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Oct 16 2003, 10:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 16 2003, 10:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That 'max res nodes you can benefit from = number of players on team' is scarily simple yet clever =o ~gives forlorn a well-earned magic cookie~ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=41573&hl=' target='_blank'>Check this out.</a>
It's funny how easily other forum goer's dismiss me, but yet it takes a long time for others to see the wisdom behind it. I'm so used to it, I don't even notice anymore. Regardless, I shall take the cookie <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
That was posted like a month before I joined, kinda hard for me to ignore you when I wasn't even around <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Oct 16 2003, 11:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 16 2003, 11:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That was posted like a month before I joined, kinda hard for me to ignore you when I wasn't even around <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh I know, it just think it's funny someone is telling me I've got this great idea when I orginally posted my thoughts they were for the most part dismissed.
Well the problem with that idea is it takes fighting away from res nodes. Why destroy your enemies res node or two, when you could more easilly (easierally... ?) just destroy their main base?
Then again, this should probably be posted in the suggestion thread itself <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Because im a lazy **** I didnt read all the posts but skimmed most of em.
This alleged resource problem does not exsist. NS is designed for 8 v 8 games is it not? Or is it 6 v 6? Either way MANY things that go on in typical NS games only happen because they are 10v10 games or more.
Examples:
1) Perma-Gorging. I play small 7v7 games often at LANs and what not. NEVER in 2.0 have I seen permagorges in these games. Aliens have no need for it in smaller games as the Marines cant rush and possibly take 2 hives simultaniously and a few other reasons. This makes for some diffrent chamber uses and upgrades as you usually gorge to cap an RT, plant a few OCs, a hive, or some upgrade chambers then go skulk or something.
2) OC walls with DCs. Doesnt happen much in smaller games. only in 10v10 or more in my experience. Usually 3 Ocs and a DC are placed in an area, by an doorway or something, but Aliens tend to actually run to any places under attack unlike in bigger games because unless the Marine team has given up they wont be runnin off by themselves most of the time.
3) Resources. Marines in a 6v6 game need 2 RTs maybe 3. Aliens need a few more because they got individual res pools, but thats because Alien RTs are NOT the primary way to get resources. Killing marines is. In a smaller game of say 8 players, 6 RTs will give an alien a LOT of res in a short ammount of time.
Now if people played like they used to when 2.0 first came out (like we do still in LANs if not online) at LEAST 6 aliens get RTs and 1 always gets 2-3 chambers right away. With 6 rts up it doesnt take long for a gorge to get 10 res. Plus marines dont need to get 10 people HA, HMG, Welder (costs 35 res total) and a TF, 2+ Siege, PG, and 6 Turrets (120 res+) for a whopping total of 470 res just to be able to take a Hive. (NOTE: this is an average Pub server example, not an ALWAYS thing).
No instead they need to get 5 people HA, HMG, Welder and the little outpost for a nice cheap 275 res. And we all know you'll be able to get that res while your HA's get ready to go, get there, build the PG and TF, ect. In a small game as NS was intended for you have no problem with Res balance at all. It is easy for Aliens to be able to go Onos a few times in 20 minutes without gettin a massive ammount of kills, and easy to give the Marines a few suits of HA.
4) Chamber Limit. There is a cap for chambers in a room. usually 7-9 I belive. 9 OCs in a room in a game of 6v6 is a lot. Thats over 3 OCs firing at each marine. Unless the Marines have a GL, and even then you'll probably run up behind them and kill a few and save the OCs, they wont get far in that room.
Thats the only examples I feel like typing. Basically in larger games some of the fairness goes out the window as your playing games TWICE as big as was intended in most pubs. Infact in almost ALL pubs Marines will have to be skilled to win with 3 RTs, and are nearly garunteed a win with 4+ as they'll all be in HA in a few minutes. (The RT number and chance for win is based on my experience on the Team-Fun server which is a 24 player server. If you say its because the players suck you get on this server and prove it, otherwise dont bother posting it.)
that post about alien res per teamsize was great, thank you. ive been complaining in private about what a dumb idea it is to ahve alien res scale with teamsize, and there youve done explained it beautifully. argh.
Comments
But assuming you aren't: there is no such resource problem. I don't know what servers you've been playing on, but if the marines have three nodes and the aliens have seven, the marines must be either very good or the aliens very stupid to for the marines to win.
Yes there is a problem as you can see in this <a href='http://www.froggeh.com/ns_resflow.txt' target='_blank'>Alien Res Flow Chart</a>
number in () is alien team size
number after fade is cost(fade cost may change, possibly to 60?)
I've been pushing for a fix in the alien res equation so that alien team size didn't have an impact on balance. I'm finally getting responses from other Pters so hopefully it will be fixed for 2.1
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then how come on the battleforthegalaxy server (30 people limit) the games are some of the most equal I've ever played?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because the marines are horrible and the aliens are slowed down enough
At the moment NS is balanced best at about 8v8.
i agree here. if your a bad **** skulk you could go fade with in 3 minutes of a game and if you dont die, well the rines will have a hard enough time keeping you away from thier res that they need, and im my opinion the rines need more res then the aliens because of the pool for the rines and is distributed, and the aliens single based. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes there is a problem as you can see in this <a href='http://www.froggeh.com/ns_resflow.txt' target='_blank'>Alien Res Flow Chart</a>
number in () is alien team size
number after fade is cost(fade cost may change, possibly to 60?)
I've been pushing for a fix in the alien res equation so that alien team size didn't have an impact on balance. I'm finally getting responses from other Pters so hopefully it will be fixed for 2.1
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then how come on the battleforthegalaxy server (30 people limit) the games are some of the most equal I've ever played?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because the marines are horrible and the aliens are slowed down enough
At the moment NS is balanced best at about 8v8. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting.
I agree that the alien res formula should always be the same to make a more balanced game.
I saw those numbers, and I must say, I'm quite partial to the 8 man team forumula. Fades that come by 6:40 with just two nodes vs. 8 marines sounds quite nice.
However, upping fade costs I do not like. Fades are nessesary to take down early electrified RT's, and other fortifications made by marines. Without early fades, it kills a lot of alien offensives short of a gorge/lerk rush.
In your PlayTesting, try out a fade cost of 55 res. That would mean at 4 nodes, a 55 res fade would take 4 min, not 3:20, and not 4:40 (which I feel may be too long). Try playing with 55 res fade and a 60 res fade. See what works best.
I don't actually subscribe to your res model fix frog. Correct me if i'm wrong but your idea is based around fixing the amount of resources per time period that each alien recieves, regardless of the number of players?
There are some serious problems with this idea. You're using the example of how long it would take a player to reach fade with each differing team size, however you're ignoring resources spent on other things that effect the entire team. To use the extreme example of a 1on1, smallest possible team sizes: Your idea is to alter resource income in this situation so that the 1 alien will recieve the same amount of res/time as a single alien in a 6on6 would recieve. This would cripple the alien player.
The alien economy relies on the use of each player's resources to build structures that benefit the whole team. Some people spend their res on RTs, some on chambers, some on the 2nd hive, and some save for higher evolutions. When you have smaller team sizes, the additional players who would normally be spending their resources on chambers etc. are lost. In a 1on1, with only 1 person on the alien team, this 1 person has the responsibility of building the RTs, the chambers, the hive AND evolving to a higher lifeform for combat purposes. If this single player gets the same amount of resources as a single player in a 6on6 gets, he obviously cannot perform this task. He will only have 1 set of starting res to play with, his 25, and after that his income is a trickle. If he saves for fade, he will have no other players to spend their resources on RTs or chambers, and after 10 minutes will have the 50 res to go fade, with 1 hive and no upgrades.
The current system, where this single player recieves the resources that an entire 6 man team would get in a 6v6, is the only way for the single alien player to fund the alien tech tree, by giving him enough resources to drop RTs, chambers and a 2nd hive. However it is abusable by simply pooling the res and going onos very early in the game. There is no way to avoid this with the individual alien res pool. As long as aliens have individual resources, and as long as the tech tree and evolution costs are set at the level required by this, there will always be significant differences between the economies of large and small games.
My example of a 1on1 is extreme, but does represent the differences your system will make to slightly smaller, and slightly larger teams. No matter how you do it, as long as the aliens have individual resource pools, the alien economy in large and small games will either be seriously abusable or horribly crippled.
Under the current system, it is arguable that the Alien team has an economy advantage in both very large, and very small teams, for 2 completely different reasons:
In small teams, as you've demonstrated, although the amount of total resources available to a small team is bang on the money, the fact that it is not divided out between so few people means certain expensive purchases become available much earlier than they should be.
In large teams, the aliens have access to an abnormally large amount of starting resources. Here, the system is abused by investing your teams resources in lots of small purchases. By making use of the masses of starting res, you can have 3 upgrade chambers, plenty of resource nodes and a mass of OCs on the map right at the start of the game. And probably still have someone who hasn't spent their 25 around to drop the 2nd hive.
Under your proposed system, the small alien team gets so little combined res that it cannot fund its tech tree, while the large alien team gets considerably more total resources than the marine team in addition to their starting res advantage. You can't win with this, there's no way to make NS play the same in each team size without a total overhaul of the alien team.
also i tend to play 8v8 games mostly (at least in public games) and find that if either team gets more than around 4 resource nodes then it starts to tilt in their favour, although i believe it is easier for aliens to turn it around in public games due to some people saving for onos, and killing the marine's prototype lab and armoury.
but usually when it gets to both teams having around 4-3 nodes each, it just relies on the skill of each team, which is as it should be.
obviously it doesnt work out all the time, especially in larger or smaller games, but i havnt seen any proposals that would fix the system as some think is necessary while still leaving a potential for skill to decide the outcome of the game.
I'm quite partial to the 8 man team forumula. Fades that come by 6:40 with just two nodes vs. 8 marines sounds quite nice.
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i think putting teams of 8v8 for scrims and such would be good in all areas, for the clans more ppl could play and work as a team better, and i think it would make the game go faster than it is now. but well see. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
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Errr...all I can say is crap marines. On the local servers here in Australia, aliens get beaten to a fine pulp in large games if the marines have any measure of teamwork (which they almost always do). The only way marines lose on a 30 player game is if they want to lose. It's well nigh imossible for the aliens to win on these servers against a marine team equally committed to a victory.
Perhaps at some point in the game the marines begin loosing resource towers, usually directly related to the second hive going up / a player goes fade.
Do the marines do anything? Not usually. What's one resource node? They'll generally destroy a few alien towers and the aliens freak and try to defend it. Why? Because the 15 res for a tower on the alien team is worth MUCH more then 15 res is to the commander. Let's say the aliens win this round: They've destroyed all but two resource towers, and are mopping the marines out of their third hive. They smash them and prepare to drop the third hive. Now the marines have one resource node (Maybe 2). Out comes the HA.
Wait a second, that's like half the alien team going onos from only one resource node. And frankly, it'd take what? Twice as long for them to go onos then it takes for the marines to tote out HA and HMGS? I dont' see the aliens going fade and lerk when THEY only have one resource node... but when the marines have one resource node, they'll be dropping guns and armor, turrets, etc. just to drag out the game.
Perhaps its because the aliens there use sensory well. (God I hate that upgrade)
To get decent res flow in say a 32 player server, the alien team has to put up and cover 4-5 nodes, that can be very difficult if the marines are hunting your rts in a pack/packs, and even if the alien team can hold their nodes, and get several fades, they aren't as effective against 15 marines as they are against 5 marines.
Meanwhile it is alot easier for a small alien team to cover the map compared to a small marine team.
In 1v1 play a marine has to be the commander and marines at the same time. So he has to place an rt walk to it hope the alien didn't find it build it then go back to base and hope the alien didn't kill his base.
I'm not saying it's a perfect fix but it does fix quite a few problems.
---
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm quite sure I've seen good marine teamwork on the battle for the galaxy server. The marines do use teamwork yet somehow the aliens still manage to wipe us all out...
Perhaps its because the aliens there use sensory well. (God I hate that upgrade)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like a problem of not having decent comms...
But assuming you aren't: there is no such resource problem. I don't know what servers you've been playing on, but if the marines have three nodes and the aliens have seven, the marines must be either very good or the aliens very stupid to for the marines to win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, if what we call serious discussion is flamebait then I should've quit this community....before release 1.
My experience in 2.0 is numerous loss as commander. You could say I suck, but you would be wrong. Trying to get marines to surive on 2 res nodes is near impossible. Notice how there is....virtually NO competitve clans for NS? Coincidence? I think not. And to be frank its dissapointing. 1.04 was a great great game, in fact besides bug fixes 2.0 has become worse. I can only hope my honesty in experience can better this game somehow. Now then, here are my observations
1.)Resource model
-Limits tactics greatly for the marines. A lot of crazy tactics used to work before. 1.0 had the flexibility. You could HA train, you could jetpack, or tech up and shotgun, sneak attacks, etc. All I see now is HA trains. Wow the excitement is breathtaking. The resources for the marines are a joke. 2 resources every tick. Aliens can rack it in alot faster, for example: The Marine team gets between 1-3 res per kill. Aliens get...1-3*players. Hmm....problem here? My solution is eliminating Alien RFK, and allow overflowing. This will limit gorges of course, but at this point I think thats a good idea. Scaling of resource points per player level would even the field, as aliens already need 7 nodes to do anything. (Which isn't hard to get, already.) Several build times could be tweaked to allow for this. Marines should get 2 resources at all times from nodes.
2.)Crimping effect for marines
-The first and only time marines get pinned down, the game is over. Just as they begin to recover and explore, Ooops onos comes trampling in.
The core of the problems in 2.0 reflect the actual resource model, anyone too ignorant to admit it needs to reevaluate the game in a more open mind.
3.)Nerf-Beef treatment of the "classes"
-In the past there were some issues with strength and weakness. However, I feel the real problem isn't in the characters abilitys, its the ease of its aquisition. Onos in 10 minutes...is game over each time the aliens get them. I've had several people harp to me. "NEWB DONT LET ALIENS GET RES NODE" Well, gee, the only way to properly outfit my teammates is to spend the money on upgrades and shotguns, then expect the public players to hold at a node for about 5 minutes begging him not to run away and die. It just dosen't work.
4.)Commanding is a chore, not fun.
-Commanding should be fun, and not the "Oh man, why me" part. There shouldn't BE a part like that. Something should be done to make it more appealing. The common problem in these times are nobody wanting to command, I for one can't blame them.
In conclusion, my perfect world NS would be 1.04 system, 2.0 bug fixes, 2.0 fade, 2.0 graphical and sound improvments, 2.1 Onos. That's just my opinion there however. What a joyous day for the aliens as it is though... In all honesty its getting really repetitive. For marines my experience is Die, die again, lose, command, die,. WIN A GAME...because the aliens left.
I can't wait to be flamed, but then again, what does that prove... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Each team's number of max res nodes are equal to the team size. If it's a 1v1, it would be each team getting only res from only one node even if they had 10. The only purpose to capping nodes would be to make sure the enemy can't cap it, and in case your other node dies.
So basically, what my system will do for the aliens:
Make it so one individual alien can't get more than 1 res every tick.
This will make it important on small NS games to kill more than be about spamming buildings, and on large NS games res nodes will remain just as important.
Next, the reason marines own on large games is because of the arms lab. I'll say it once, and I'll say it again, marines get WAY too much of an upgrade from at the arms lab for their cost. 20 res to upgrade 10-15 rine's firepower, which stacks? This is extreme.
Here is the solution, quoted from me as posted in another thread:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Arms Lab Unproportionality(Is that even a word? Heh.)
This one is simple.
Lets say, for arguments sake, the most balanced size of an NS game is 6v6. This is clan standard.
Now the arms lab currently (as of 2.01b) is 20/30/40. This is all fine and dandy.
Lets say the game is now 12v12. Arms lab is still 20/30/40. Anyone here see the imbalance? It’s not hard to spot out.
On larger games(8v8 or more), the arms lab is more than worth it’s cost. You upgrade all of your marines for a fraction of the cost of what buying them all equipment would be, and it’s much more effective as there are more guns that get the upgrades. In smaller games(4v4 or less), the arms lab is crap compared to outfitting your 3-4 marines with some good equipment. Arms lab will still be important in small games, however, it comes second to equipment. And the opposite is true in large games.
The Arms Lab, believe it or not, is what causes a lot of unbalancing on large and small games right now, it’s either too good or too bad. On large games, you see stalemates quite often because aliens can’t hope to compete with marines that come out of spawn that shred them to pieces easily, even with an LMG, as there is such a high volume of it all. That is why large games almost never end early, as marines get their arms lab upgrades for too good of a cost, and they get them all very quickly, resulting in marines that generally cannot do well on attack, but pretty much own on defense, forcing aliens to get their third hive for some uber powerful abilities (or if the aliens chose sensory first so they can get Def or Move chambers).
So, the fix for the arms lab is to make it proportional to the amount of marines playing.
For 6 marines, the cost is 20/30/40.
For 12 marines, you have double the marines, and thus, the upgrades should cost 40/60/80.
For 3 marines, you have half the marines, and thus, the upgrades should cost 10/15/20.
However, just by looking at the numbers presented here I’m sure all the commanders must be dropping their Jaw’s onto the floor screaming: “NO WAY! 40 res for the first set of upgrades? TOO MUCH!” Or… “10 res on a 3 man server? It’s practically free ffs!” And, for the most part, they are right.
So, a small modification to the above said proposal: Only add/subtract 50% additional cost for every 100% increase/decrease in marines.
12 marines: 30/45/60
3 marines: 15/23/30
This is a formula that needs to be calculated, one that figures out the cost of the arms labs upgrades based on how many marines there are.
An easy way to calculate the costs of these upgrades if you are without a calculator is:
For every 3 marines lost/gained over 6, add/subtract 5 res for the first upgrade, add/subtract 7 res for the second upgrade, and add/subtract 10 res for the third upgrade.
Very simple, and this would balance out the arms lab completely, no matter the teamsize.
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~gives forlorn a well-earned magic cookie~
~gives forlorn a well-earned magic cookie~ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=41573&hl=' target='_blank'>Check this out.</a>
It's funny how easily other forum goer's dismiss me, but yet it takes a long time for others to see the wisdom behind it. I'm so used to it, I don't even notice anymore. Regardless, I shall take the cookie <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh I know, it just think it's funny someone is telling me I've got this great idea when I orginally posted my thoughts they were for the most part dismissed.
Then again, this should probably be posted in the suggestion thread itself <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
This alleged resource problem does not exsist. NS is designed for 8 v 8 games is it not? Or is it 6 v 6? Either way MANY things that go on in typical NS games only happen because they are 10v10 games or more.
Examples:
1) Perma-Gorging. I play small 7v7 games often at LANs and what not. NEVER in 2.0 have I seen permagorges in these games. Aliens have no need for it in smaller games as the Marines cant rush and possibly take 2 hives simultaniously and a few other reasons. This makes for some diffrent chamber uses and upgrades as you usually gorge to cap an RT, plant a few OCs, a hive, or some upgrade chambers then go skulk or something.
2) OC walls with DCs. Doesnt happen much in smaller games. only in 10v10 or more in my experience. Usually 3 Ocs and a DC are placed in an area, by an doorway or something, but Aliens tend to actually run to any places under attack unlike in bigger games because unless the Marine team has given up they wont be runnin off by themselves most of the time.
3) Resources. Marines in a 6v6 game need 2 RTs maybe 3. Aliens need a few more because they got individual res pools, but thats because Alien RTs are NOT the primary way to get resources. Killing marines is. In a smaller game of say 8 players, 6 RTs will give an alien a LOT of res in a short ammount of time.
Now if people played like they used to when 2.0 first came out (like we do still in LANs if not online) at LEAST 6 aliens get RTs and 1 always gets 2-3 chambers right away. With 6 rts up it doesnt take long for a gorge to get 10 res. Plus marines dont need to get 10 people HA, HMG, Welder (costs 35 res total) and a TF, 2+ Siege, PG, and 6 Turrets (120 res+) for a whopping total of 470 res just to be able to take a Hive. (NOTE: this is an average Pub server example, not an ALWAYS thing).
No instead they need to get 5 people HA, HMG, Welder and the little outpost for a nice cheap 275 res. And we all know you'll be able to get that res while your HA's get ready to go, get there, build the PG and TF, ect. In a small game as NS was intended for you have no problem with Res balance at all. It is easy for Aliens to be able to go Onos a few times in 20 minutes without gettin a massive ammount of kills, and easy to give the Marines a few suits of HA.
4) Chamber Limit. There is a cap for chambers in a room. usually 7-9 I belive. 9 OCs in a room in a game of 6v6 is a lot. Thats over 3 OCs firing at each marine. Unless the Marines have a GL, and even then you'll probably run up behind them and kill a few and save the OCs, they wont get far in that room.
Thats the only examples I feel like typing. Basically in larger games some of the fairness goes out the window as your playing games TWICE as big as was intended in most pubs. Infact in almost ALL pubs Marines will have to be skilled to win with 3 RTs, and are nearly garunteed a win with 4+ as they'll all be in HA in a few minutes. (The RT number and chance for win is based on my experience on the Team-Fun server which is a 24 player server. If you say its because the players suck you get on this server and prove it, otherwise dont bother posting it.)
- Red
that post about alien res per teamsize was great, thank you. ive been complaining in private about what a dumb idea it is to ahve alien res scale with teamsize, and there youve done explained it beautifully. argh.