My girlfriend's Father & Step-mother frequent this restaurant, Tomo. They go (at least when i'm around) once or twice at least. Now, they've been going there since Tomo opened and the waiters all get really big smiles whenever our horde appears in the door because her Father has money, and he tips usually around 20-30%. Our food is brought to us warm, our drinks are always what we want, and they even know to bring the extra Teriyaki sauce.
If you tip well, after the food is brought, the waiters/waitresses will be much kinder the next time you visit.
The restaurant I worked at was right down the frontage road from a TGI Fridays. I generally made more money than everyone there except their bartenders, so I tipped lavishly and redistributed the wealth a bit. It got to the point where my car would roll in the parking lot, and depending on what day of the week it was, my food and drink would be waiting at the bar or the hostess would have menu in hand taking me to my favorite server on the clock. Being a regular and recognized as someone people <i>want</i> to wait on is wonderful, and is one of the fringe benefits of tipping well and often. You get the best service when they know you by name <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Temp delete yourself you fool and save the mods some time.
Look - I agree that tipping and improved service go hand in hand, but what I'm trying to say is that it already did that BEFORE they started factoring tips into wages and taxing them. I understand what the service industry is like, I have a lot of friends in hospitality so I hear it all the time. It seems that before tipping got factored in, you already had the incentive to work hard because the harder you worked the more money you got in tips. Then after they started factoring it in, you are in the EXACT same position, except you are getting less money and your employer is getting more.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Like someone posted here, the places with no tipping system meant incredibly poor service.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now this is completly confusing me now. Here in Australia, if you give customers crap service, you get <i>fired</i>. Pretty simple. If you're lucky you'll get a warning. Serving the customers well and helping them out is part of your job description.
The long list of things you do for the customers Rat is what I would expect in any restaurant that I go into, and that includes Sizzlars. And that's what I get, here in Australia. It's what the staff do, again, it's part of their job.
Why do the staff do this? They're paid to do it. They're paid well to do it. If they don't do it, they'll get fired. The wages here are good enough that a person doesn't want to lose their job.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Oct 21 2003, 08:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Oct 21 2003, 08:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now this is completly confusing me now. Here in Australia, if you give customers crap service, you get <i>fired</i>. Pretty simple. If you're lucky you'll get a warning. Serving the customers well and helping them out is part of your job description.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It probably stems from the fact the service industy here has a very hard time keeping employees. Most people who are unemployed prefer to stay that way (or are incapable of working.) Most people look to service as merely a means to an end, and there's always another place to go if they don't like where they're at. Thus the threat of being fired is never really on someone's mind. In fact, they'd probably be happy about being fired so they could collect unemployment for a while. The only incentive to perform at a high level is to essentially force them to be nice to the customers. That's my take on it. People here don't really take service jobs all that seriously... at least, not your average worker. There are exceptions, of course.
Today you find that a lot of restaurants employ immigrants who are eager for jobs and want to perform well regardless of tipping. These people actually fear being fired. Most fast-food places in my area are close to 100% immigrant in their work force. They work harder, complain less, have fewer demands, and are more flexible.
<!--QuoteBegin--Eviscerator+Oct 23 2003, 12:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Eviscerator @ Oct 23 2003, 12:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Oct 21 2003, 08:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Oct 21 2003, 08:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now this is completly confusing me now. Here in Australia, if you give customers crap service, you get <i>fired</i>. Pretty simple. If you're lucky you'll get a warning. Serving the customers well and helping them out is part of your job description.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It probably stems from the fact the service industy here has a very hard time keeping employees. Most people who are unemployed prefer to stay that way (or are incapable of working.) Most people look to service as merely a means to an end, and there's always another place to go if they don't like where they're at. Thus the threat of being fired is never really on someone's mind. In fact, they'd probably be happy about being fired so they could collect unemployment for a while. The only incentive to perform at a high level is to essentially force them to be nice to the customers. That's my take on it. People here don't really take service jobs all that seriously... at least, not your average worker. There are exceptions, of course.
Today you find that a lot of restaurants employ immigrants who are eager for jobs and want to perform well regardless of tipping. These people actually fear being fired. Most fast-food places in my area are close to 100% immigrant in their work force. They work harder, complain less, have fewer demands, and are more flexible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I have heard about American exploitation of immigrants, but thats a different thread.
However, we in Australia have a unemployment and benefits scheme you Americans can only dream of. Our welfare system is huge, and yet we dont suffer from the same problem. I think the real issue here could possibly be American work ethics.
In Australia, when you become a vet, you pretty much go to Britian. Just about every graduating vet will go to Britian, because the British LOVE Australian vets. We are hard workers. We take a heck of a lot of pride in the work we do, and that generalization applies to pretty much every Australian vet. They feel that Australian vets are superior to British vets in this regard. Sure not all Aussies are hard workers, but a lot are.
Perhaps you're right, and the American Hospitality industry lacks motivated employees?
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Oct 23 2003, 01:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Oct 23 2003, 01:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> However, we in Australia have a unemployment and benefits scheme you Americans can only dream of. Our welfare system is huge, and yet we dont suffer from the same problem. I think the real issue here could possibly be American work ethics.
[...]
Perhaps you're right, and the American Hospitality industry lacks motivated employees? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you pretty much hit it on the head. Very few service industry people take pride in what they do because they don't like doing it. It's a distraction for them, since their goals are probably much higher. Living the American Dream does not equate to the 3rd shift at Taco Bell. The struggling artist, the unemployed actress, the band that can't land a gig, the guy working his way through college, etc. All of them are striving for something bigger, however they aren't there yet. They still need to pay the bills, however. The service industry (at least those jobs that involve tipping) typically employs a larger percentage of these kinds of people.
There is a reason people here are the most obese of any on the planet. Motivated and energetic they are not <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Americans work harder than most. Ever been to EUROPE? Now there's a nation of slugs. They're just slimmer because they smoke a lot and ride bikes everywhere.
<!--QuoteBegin--[p4]Samwise+Oct 24 2003, 05:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([p4]Samwise @ Oct 24 2003, 05:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Americans work harder than most. Ever been to EUROPE? Now there's a nation of slugs. They're just slimmer because they smoke a lot and ride bikes everywhere.
</gross generalization> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And eat frogs and snails.
Actually, no. They eat incredibly greasy food at every meal. I can't even look at croissants after spending a few days in Paris, because that's what we had for breakfast every day, and it was like eating a stick of butter. In England they fry everything. In Germany you get huge piles of greasy (but delicious) meat at every meal, with a side of buttered starch and washed down with a healthy portion of beer.
Add this to the fact that Americans have a longer work week. And yet we end up being cast as the obese lazy pigs. There's no justice in the world.
<!--QuoteBegin--[p4]Samwise+Oct 24 2003, 06:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([p4]Samwise @ Oct 24 2003, 06:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, no. They eat incredibly greasy food at every meal. I can't even look at croissants after spending a few days in Paris, because that's what we had for breakfast every day, and it was like eating a stick of butter. In England they fry everything. In Germany you get huge piles of greasy (but delicious) meat at every meal, with a side of buttered starch and washed down with a healthy portion of beer.
Add this to the fact that Americans have a longer work week. And yet we end up being cast as the obese lazy pigs. There's no justice in the world. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not too mention we are all stupid, eat at mcdonalds, and have a lot of dirty unprotected sex.
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Oct 24 2003, 06:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Oct 24 2003, 06:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--[p4]Samwise+Oct 24 2003, 06:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([p4]Samwise @ Oct 24 2003, 06:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, no. They eat incredibly greasy food at every meal. I can't even look at croissants after spending a few days in Paris, because that's what we had for breakfast every day, and it was like eating a stick of butter. In England they fry everything. In Germany you get huge piles of greasy (but delicious) meat at every meal, with a side of buttered starch and washed down with a healthy portion of beer.
Add this to the fact that Americans have a longer work week. And yet we end up being cast as the obese lazy pigs. There's no justice in the world. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not too mention we are all stupid, eat at mcdonalds, and have a lot of dirty unprotected sex. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't forget are all baseball fans, drive a pickup truck, and have large cowboy belt buckles.
Well, the American work ethic isnt exactly world famous - but then again neither is the Australian one. And we are the second fattest country in the world. I find it funny that we are the greatest sporting nation ever, yet have so many fattehs.
I merely said the American work ethic could possibly (remember I have no experience here) be lacking in the service industry.
If anything is to blame australia's obesity problems, its the influx of American fast food. KFC, Maccas, Hungry Jacks (like burger king) are everywhere. Otherwise our diets are very healthy, we eat a lot of fruit and vegetables, everything is very fresh (especially in western australia where i live). The australian barbeques though are quite fattening, as we eat burnt, greasy sausages and meat washed down with a couple of beers.
I'm not so sure it's a question of work ethics. Most service industry workers here in Australia are students; working casual or part time to pay for university or earn some after-school money. They're not in it for a career. Yet they work hard and well. I think that the reason for this is that they are paid fairly well, certainly better than in the US. The incentive to work well is that if you don't, you're fired, and the wages you're recieveing are much better than those of unemployment benefits (and as someone who has been on both, I can say which I prefer, and it's being employed).
still wondering why no one has addressed the points in my first post as to why you should not be paying directly the person waiting on you hand and foot or the one driving their own automobile to your door to give you your food....
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Oct 25 2003, 05:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Oct 25 2003, 05:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not so sure it's a question of work ethics. Most service industry workers here in Australia are students; working casual or part time to pay for university or earn some after-school money. They're not in it for a career. Yet they work hard and well. I think that the reason for this is that they are paid fairly well, certainly better than in the US. The incentive to work well is that if you don't, you're fired, and the wages you're recieveing are much better than those of unemployment benefits (and as someone who has been on both, I can say which I prefer, and it's being employed). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Could it be because most Americans have no shame? And those that do have it beaten out of them?
<!--QuoteBegin--Rat+Oct 26 2003, 11:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rat @ Oct 26 2003, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> still wondering why no one has addressed the points in my first post as to why you should not be paying directly the person waiting on you hand and foot or the one driving their own automobile to your door to give you your food.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I just reread your post, and unless I missed something really critical, it seemed the crux of your arguement was "It makes them work harder for more money", and as your way of personally rewarding excellent service.
Both of those points I feel have been addressed - we have excellent service in most places in Australia, and we dont have tips. And please, if there is something I missed in your post, feel free to point it out, my reading for comprehension skills arent exactly legendary <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
My points were mainly that there is an intense personal investment in both those job that are directly related to that person's time or money--in the process they are acting basically like a medieval servant--and yet people feel that it's alright to not reward them. Additionally, there's the fact that waiters in restaurants get paid forty percent of Federal Minimum Wage for non-foodservers--and most of them are paying money directly to the restaurant to have you sit and eat there.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mercior+Oct 20 2003, 09:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mercior @ Oct 20 2003, 09:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Personally I never tip, they're being paid for doign there job and that should be enough. My sister used to work in a resturant and she would make more in tips every night than she was being paid. I think people feel under pressure to give out tips in resturants as its become the "norm", and most people give in to the social pressure. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Some people NEED those to get by, and to keep coming out with a smile on their face after putting up with so much BS deserves just a little gradititude.
I believe in tipping, but only when it isn't expected.
If someone expects a tip, they've got another thing coming. At some point, we all began EXPECTING presents at christmas. I believe this is wrong, and presents should never be taken granted. Neither should tipping.
Only if a guy is gracious and doesn't ask or imply he wants a tip, do I give him one.
<!--QuoteBegin--Smoke Nova+Oct 20 2003, 12:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Smoke Nova @ Oct 20 2003, 12:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I tip resaurants and pizza delivery only. Of course, in restaurants I always end up tipping 15-20%, Pizza delivery is usually 75cents to 1.50, depending upon how much the pizza is and how long it took to make/get delivered.
In the US, Waiters/Waitresses get paid under minimum wage, usually 4.25$ an hour because it is expected that they will be tipped. And they are expected to get tipped at least 10% of the bill. One person I know who is a waitress at a local restaurant once had a group of seniors, 8 or 9 people, 150$ on the bill. You know what they left for a tip? 50 cents. 50 f**king cents. The persons wages that day were diddly. Especially as she had to wait on the seniors only and that was most of her shift. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Dumb old people sometimes.
<!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Oct 27 2003, 07:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Oct 27 2003, 07:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I believe in tipping, but only when it isn't expected.
If someone expects a tip, they've got another thing coming. At some point, we all began EXPECTING presents at christmas. I believe this is wrong, and presents should never be taken granted. Neither should tipping.
Only if a guy is gracious and doesn't ask or imply he wants a tip, do I give him one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Expecting a tip when you're putting out well over 5 times the work as your regular minimum wage drone and making 40% of what he does because the government expects you to ultimately make more is very understandable. you don't tip me, i'm working harder and making 2 times less, well, that's pretty assenine
<!--QuoteBegin--Rat+Oct 28 2003, 06:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rat @ Oct 28 2003, 06:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Oct 27 2003, 07:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Oct 27 2003, 07:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I believe in tipping, but only when it isn't expected.
If someone expects a tip, they've got another thing coming. At some point, we all began EXPECTING presents at christmas. I believe this is wrong, and presents should never be taken granted. Neither should tipping.
Only if a guy is gracious and doesn't ask or imply he wants a tip, do I give him one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Expecting a tip when you're putting out well over 5 times the work as your regular minimum wage drone and making 40% of what he does because the government expects you to ultimately make more is very understandable. you don't tip me, i'm working harder and making 2 times less, well, that's pretty assenine <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're in the wrong business then.
If you're point is to get money, then there are far better ways than picking the single lowest paying job out there and expecting it to work out for you in tips. If the tips aren't getting you much, maybe that isn't the job you should be doing.
Tips make me an average of 2-3 times minimum wage right now as a delivery boy. As a waiter, I made better money because people have the decency to show some appreciation for being treated like royalty
If you have no appreciation for a societies customs, go to a place where those customs are not honored. Its a simple show of appreciation for a someone elses hospitality. Its social value outwieghs its monitary value. Tipping occurs in advanced societies, where money is valued over most everything else but gratuity in one form or another is universal. In a money driven society, money it is the way we motivate, stimulate, show approval and so on. Its also an easy way to show appreciation while remaining annonomys, and without actually having to care. Ifpeople willing to "invest" $5000 into a faceless company that <i>may</i> bring about some benifit, why not put $5 to the benifit of another person whos service likely benifited you.
Corporate philosophy has killed the personality of society.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ifpeople willing to "invest" $5000 into a faceless company that may bring about some benifit, why not put $5 to the benifit of another person whos service likely benifited you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because I paid that company money for the service I recieve. A portion of that money then finds it's way back to the employee via wages. Now if the company does a good job, and the service is good, the company will prosper. The bosses can afford higher wages for their staff, who will in turn provide better and better service, partially from a desire to keep their job but also from a sense of respect and loyalty to the company. By helping out the company you do, in theory, help the staff out. Good companies know to reward employees for long service, loyalty and hard work. Bad companies don't and typically lose good staff to other, better companies.
It's not to say that sometimes a person might recieve a tip. Simply that it shouldn't be expected. By serving a customer to the best of one's ability you are not only doing your job, you are helping your employer. Which in turn helps yourself out, as a prosperous business means higher wages for you.
Companies dont value employees like they did 15 or 20 years ago. Pensions are almost non-existent, benifits packages are shrinking and more and more companies have dropped them altogether. The typical salary and salary increase are in steady decline, and the only way to get a raise is to change jobs. Not to mention the fact that entire industries are moving thier high paying jobs overseas There is no such thing as company loyalty, so the "what benifits the employee, benifits the company, benifits the employee" argument doesnt hold much water for me. Tips have nothing to do with the company or product anyway. I think its important to acknowledge that you <i>are not</i> tipping the company. You are tipping personal service, the individual, not thier employer.
I dont know the history of tipping, but Im sure in its beginings it was a far more personal show of appreciation than its become in our society. Were far to busy, on-the-go, and annonymous in nature to have casual relationships with the people that provide us services, wich Im sure it was at one time, and so our show of personal gratitiude has been reduced to small change. To me gratitude is a virtue, so I definatly have a bias opinion on the matter.
<!--QuoteBegin--Parasite+Oct 28 2003, 11:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Parasite @ Oct 28 2003, 11:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you have no appreciation for a societies customs, go to a place where those customs are not honored. Its a simple show of appreciation for a someone elses hospitality. Its social value outwieghs its monitary value. Tipping occurs in advanced societies, where money is valued over most everything else but gratuity in one form or another is universal. In a money driven society, money it is the way we motivate, stimulate, show approval and so on. Its also an easy way to show appreciation while remaining annonomys, and without actually having to care. Ifpeople willing to "invest" $5000 into a faceless company that <i>may</i> bring about some benifit, why not put $5 to the benifit of another person whos service likely benifited you.
Corporate philosophy has killed the personality of society. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> IT'S THEIR JOB!
Should I say it again?
IT'S THEIR JOB!
Would you tip an engineer for being a good engineer? Or perhaps we should tip gas station clerks. We don't. Why not? They may be terribly nice to us. You wanna know why? Because kindness isn't motivated by greed. If you do your job and expect a tip, and then have the tenacity to say what a lousy person someone is for not tipping you, you should reconsider your views.
A waiter isn't supposed to make far above and beyond minimum wage. It is a low-paying job, and in fact many people do tip (too handsomely I should add). You make more than the cooks do; the reason customers come to a restaurant is for the cooking, right?
If money is what you want, pick another job. Either you're complaining that you get too few tips, in which case being a waiter isn't your thing, or you get way too many tips, in which case WHY ARE YOU COMPLAINING!?
Comments
My girlfriend's Father & Step-mother frequent this restaurant, Tomo. They go (at least when i'm around) once or twice at least. Now, they've been going there since Tomo opened and the waiters all get really big smiles whenever our horde appears in the door because her Father has money, and he tips usually around 20-30%. Our food is brought to us warm, our drinks are always what we want, and they even know to bring the extra Teriyaki sauce.
If you tip well, after the food is brought, the waiters/waitresses will be much kinder the next time you visit.
Look - I agree that tipping and improved service go hand in hand, but what I'm trying to say is that it already did that BEFORE they started factoring tips into wages and taxing them. I understand what the service industry is like, I have a lot of friends in hospitality so I hear it all the time. It seems that before tipping got factored in, you already had the incentive to work hard because the harder you worked the more money you got in tips. Then after they started factoring it in, you are in the EXACT same position, except you are getting less money and your employer is getting more.
Now this is completly confusing me now. Here in Australia, if you give customers crap service, you get <i>fired</i>. Pretty simple. If you're lucky you'll get a warning. Serving the customers well and helping them out is part of your job description.
The long list of things you do for the customers Rat is what I would expect in any restaurant that I go into, and that includes Sizzlars. And that's what I get, here in Australia. It's what the staff do, again, it's part of their job.
Why do the staff do this? They're paid to do it. They're paid well to do it. If they don't do it, they'll get fired. The wages here are good enough that a person doesn't want to lose their job.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It probably stems from the fact the service industy here has a very hard time keeping employees. Most people who are unemployed prefer to stay that way (or are incapable of working.) Most people look to service as merely a means to an end, and there's always another place to go if they don't like where they're at. Thus the threat of being fired is never really on someone's mind. In fact, they'd probably be happy about being fired so they could collect unemployment for a while. The only incentive to perform at a high level is to essentially force them to be nice to the customers. That's my take on it. People here don't really take service jobs all that seriously... at least, not your average worker. There are exceptions, of course.
Today you find that a lot of restaurants employ immigrants who are eager for jobs and want to perform well regardless of tipping. These people actually fear being fired. Most fast-food places in my area are close to 100% immigrant in their work force. They work harder, complain less, have fewer demands, and are more flexible.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It probably stems from the fact the service industy here has a very hard time keeping employees. Most people who are unemployed prefer to stay that way (or are incapable of working.) Most people look to service as merely a means to an end, and there's always another place to go if they don't like where they're at. Thus the threat of being fired is never really on someone's mind. In fact, they'd probably be happy about being fired so they could collect unemployment for a while. The only incentive to perform at a high level is to essentially force them to be nice to the customers. That's my take on it. People here don't really take service jobs all that seriously... at least, not your average worker. There are exceptions, of course.
Today you find that a lot of restaurants employ immigrants who are eager for jobs and want to perform well regardless of tipping. These people actually fear being fired. Most fast-food places in my area are close to 100% immigrant in their work force. They work harder, complain less, have fewer demands, and are more flexible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have heard about American exploitation of immigrants, but thats a different thread.
However, we in Australia have a unemployment and benefits scheme you Americans can only dream of. Our welfare system is huge, and yet we dont suffer from the same problem. I think the real issue here could possibly be American work ethics.
In Australia, when you become a vet, you pretty much go to Britian. Just about every graduating vet will go to Britian, because the British LOVE Australian vets. We are hard workers. We take a heck of a lot of pride in the work we do, and that generalization applies to pretty much every Australian vet. They feel that Australian vets are superior to British vets in this regard. Sure not all Aussies are hard workers, but a lot are.
Perhaps you're right, and the American Hospitality industry lacks motivated employees?
[...]
Perhaps you're right, and the American Hospitality industry lacks motivated employees? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you pretty much hit it on the head. Very few service industry people take pride in what they do because they don't like doing it. It's a distraction for them, since their goals are probably much higher. Living the American Dream does not equate to the 3rd shift at Taco Bell. The struggling artist, the unemployed actress, the band that can't land a gig, the guy working his way through college, etc. All of them are striving for something bigger, however they aren't there yet. They still need to pay the bills, however. The service industry (at least those jobs that involve tipping) typically employs a larger percentage of these kinds of people.
There is a reason people here are the most obese of any on the planet. Motivated and energetic they are not <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
</gross generalization>
</gross generalization> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And eat frogs and snails.
Add this to the fact that Americans have a longer work week. And yet we end up being cast as the obese lazy pigs. There's no justice in the world.
Add this to the fact that Americans have a longer work week. And yet we end up being cast as the obese lazy pigs. There's no justice in the world. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not too mention we are all stupid, eat at mcdonalds, and have a lot of dirty unprotected sex.
Add this to the fact that Americans have a longer work week. And yet we end up being cast as the obese lazy pigs. There's no justice in the world. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not too mention we are all stupid, eat at mcdonalds, and have a lot of dirty unprotected sex. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't forget are all baseball fans, drive a pickup truck, and have large cowboy belt buckles.
I merely said the American work ethic could possibly (remember I have no experience here) be lacking in the service industry.
Could it be because most Americans have no shame? And those that do have it beaten out of them?
I just reread your post, and unless I missed something really critical, it seemed the crux of your arguement was "It makes them work harder for more money", and as your way of personally rewarding excellent service.
Both of those points I feel have been addressed - we have excellent service in most places in Australia, and we dont have tips. And please, if there is something I missed in your post, feel free to point it out, my reading for comprehension skills arent exactly legendary <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Some people NEED those to get by, and to keep coming out with a smile on their face after putting up with so much BS deserves just a little gradititude.
If someone expects a tip, they've got another thing coming. At some point, we all began EXPECTING presents at christmas. I believe this is wrong, and presents should never be taken granted. Neither should tipping.
Only if a guy is gracious and doesn't ask or imply he wants a tip, do I give him one.
In the US, Waiters/Waitresses get paid under minimum wage, usually 4.25$ an hour because it is expected that they will be tipped. And they are expected to get tipped at least 10% of the bill. One person I know who is a waitress at a local restaurant once had a group of seniors, 8 or 9 people, 150$ on the bill. You know what they left for a tip? 50 cents. 50 f**king cents. The persons wages that day were diddly. Especially as she had to wait on the seniors only and that was most of her shift. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dumb old people sometimes.
If someone expects a tip, they've got another thing coming. At some point, we all began EXPECTING presents at christmas. I believe this is wrong, and presents should never be taken granted. Neither should tipping.
Only if a guy is gracious and doesn't ask or imply he wants a tip, do I give him one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Expecting a tip when you're putting out well over 5 times the work as your regular minimum wage drone and making 40% of what he does because the government expects you to ultimately make more is very understandable. you don't tip me, i'm working harder and making 2 times less, well, that's pretty assenine
If someone expects a tip, they've got another thing coming. At some point, we all began EXPECTING presents at christmas. I believe this is wrong, and presents should never be taken granted. Neither should tipping.
Only if a guy is gracious and doesn't ask or imply he wants a tip, do I give him one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Expecting a tip when you're putting out well over 5 times the work as your regular minimum wage drone and making 40% of what he does because the government expects you to ultimately make more is very understandable. you don't tip me, i'm working harder and making 2 times less, well, that's pretty assenine <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're in the wrong business then.
If you're point is to get money, then there are far better ways than picking the single lowest paying job out there and expecting it to work out for you in tips. If the tips aren't getting you much, maybe that isn't the job you should be doing.
Corporate philosophy has killed the personality of society.
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Because I paid that company money for the service I recieve. A portion of that money then finds it's way back to the employee via wages. Now if the company does a good job, and the service is good, the company will prosper. The bosses can afford higher wages for their staff, who will in turn provide better and better service, partially from a desire to keep their job but also from a sense of respect and loyalty to the company. By helping out the company you do, in theory, help the staff out. Good companies know to reward employees for long service, loyalty and hard work. Bad companies don't and typically lose good staff to other, better companies.
It's not to say that sometimes a person might recieve a tip. Simply that it shouldn't be expected. By serving a customer to the best of one's ability you are not only doing your job, you are helping your employer. Which in turn helps yourself out, as a prosperous business means higher wages for you.
Companies dont value employees like they did 15 or 20 years ago. Pensions are almost non-existent, benifits packages are shrinking and more and more companies have dropped them altogether. The typical salary and salary increase are in steady decline, and the only way to get a raise is to change jobs. Not to mention the fact that entire industries are moving thier high paying jobs overseas There is no such thing as company loyalty, so the "what benifits the employee, benifits the company, benifits the employee" argument doesnt hold much water for me. Tips have nothing to do with the company or product anyway. I think its important to acknowledge that you <i>are not</i> tipping the company. You are tipping personal service, the individual, not thier employer.
I dont know the history of tipping, but Im sure in its beginings it was a far more personal show of appreciation than its become in our society. Were far to busy, on-the-go, and annonymous in nature to have casual relationships with the people that provide us services, wich Im sure it was at one time, and so our show of personal gratitiude has been reduced to small change. To me gratitude is a virtue, so I definatly have a bias opinion on the matter.
Corporate philosophy has killed the personality of society. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
IT'S THEIR JOB!
Should I say it again?
IT'S THEIR JOB!
Would you tip an engineer for being a good engineer? Or perhaps we should tip gas station clerks. We don't. Why not? They may be terribly nice to us. You wanna know why? Because kindness isn't motivated by greed. If you do your job and expect a tip, and then have the tenacity to say what a lousy person someone is for not tipping you, you should reconsider your views.
A waiter isn't supposed to make far above and beyond minimum wage. It is a low-paying job, and in fact many people do tip (too handsomely I should add). You make more than the cooks do; the reason customers come to a restaurant is for the cooking, right?
If money is what you want, pick another job. Either you're complaining that you get too few tips, in which case being a waiter isn't your thing, or you get way too many tips, in which case WHY ARE YOU COMPLAINING!?