<!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Oct 29 2003, 04:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Oct 29 2003, 04:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Parasite+Oct 28 2003, 11:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Parasite @ Oct 28 2003, 11:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you have no appreciation for a societies customs, go to a place where those customs are not honored. Its a simple show of appreciation for a someone elses hospitality. Its social value outwieghs its monitary value. Tipping occurs in advanced societies, where money is valued over most everything else but gratuity in one form or another is universal. In a money driven society, money it is the way we motivate, stimulate, show approval and so on. Its also an easy way to show appreciation while remaining annonomys, and without actually having to care. Ifpeople willing to "invest" $5000 into a faceless company that <i>may</i> bring about some benifit, why not put $5 to the benifit of another person whos service likely benifited you.
Corporate philosophy has killed the personality of society. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> IT'S THEIR JOB!
Should I say it again?
IT'S THEIR JOB!
Would you tip an engineer for being a good engineer? Or perhaps we should tip gas station clerks. We don't. Why not? They may be terribly nice to us. You wanna know why? Because kindness isn't motivated by greed. If you do your job and expect a tip, and then have the tenacity to say what a lousy person someone is for not tipping you, you should reconsider your views.
A waiter isn't supposed to make far above and beyond minimum wage. It is a low-paying job, and in fact many people do tip (too handsomely I should add). You make more than the cooks do; the reason customers come to a restaurant is for the cooking, right?
If money is what you want, pick another job. Either you're complaining that you get too few tips, in which case being a waiter isn't your thing, or you get way too many tips, in which case WHY ARE YOU COMPLAINING!? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not a single statement here is worth a rebuttle. You seem a little too jaded and on edge about the issue. I never said anyone should expect a tip. Im not sure where this "tenacity to complain about what terrible people non-tippers are" comes from, or why you seem to assume I am a waiter. its thier job or not, we have a custom. If you dont like it, dont abide by it...America allows you that freedom. I would never have expected that such a small issue would have such irate reactions, is this really such a passionate issue for you?
I'm not usually one to defend America, but its work ethic IS one thing it's world famous for. Longer work weeks and work days, shorter vacations... it's not just pure luck or gifts from wealthy grandparents that made America the most affluent country in the world.
As for tipping -- I'm kind of ambivalent about the system, but I pretty much like it. It's a way to get money to employees who need it, without having it taxed... taxes don't touch tips, right? I can see how on one hand good service could be rewarded by raises and not firing employees, but I know that if I didn't feel I had to tip, I never would... and if the employers had to raise wages, they'd indubitably raise the prices of food 15% so why get your panties in a bunch about tipping to begin with?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not a single statement here is worth a rebuttle. You seem a little too jaded and on edge about the issue. I never said anyone should expect a tip.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you have no appreciation for a societies customs, go to a place where those customs are not honored. Its a simple show of appreciation for a someone elses hospitality. Its social value outwieghs its monitary value. Tipping occurs in advanced societies, where money is valued over most everything else but gratuity in one form or another is universal. In a money driven society, money it is the way we motivate, stimulate, show approval and so on. Its also an easy way to show appreciation while remaining annonomys, and without actually having to care. Ifpeople willing to "invest" $5000 into a faceless company that may bring about some benifit, why not put $5 to the benifit of another person whos service likely benifited you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then I don't think I understand the purpose behind this entire paragraph. Please englighten me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Im not sure where this "tenacity to complain about what terrible people non-tippers are" comes from, or why you seem to assume I am a waiter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That was my fault. "You" was a general term to mean any waiter out there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->we have a custom. If you dont like it, dont abide by it...America allows you that freedom.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good, you see my point as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would never have expected that such a small issue would have such irate reactions, is this really such a passionate issue for you?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No more passionate than you are for taking your time to respond to my post.
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
<!--QuoteBegin--DiscoZombie+Oct 30 2003, 10:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DiscoZombie @ Oct 30 2003, 10:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ... taxes don't touch tips, right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Unfortunately, they do. The typical system relies on the receiver of the tips to report them through their employer and the result shows up on their paycheck.
I do believe in tipping, but i only ever do it if the person deserves it. While we've established pretty much that because of the reduced minimum wage for waiters, etc, is lower, they rely on tips to make a decent enough pay to live on, right.
I have actually gotten someone fired from their job for complaining about the tip. I'd just eaten a meal with a friend or two, and being young, we could only afford about £5 or so in tips between us, this isn't because we're not generous, this isn't because we hated the waiter, it's because we simply couldn't afford it. Anyway, aformentioned waiter went on and made some snide comments as to the amount we tipped and insulted us as to being cheapskates. We got this jerk fired right in front of us.
Some people seem to expect to be tipped, this is what i don't agree with. If someone does a great job i will happily clear out my pockets and give them whatever i can, because they do deserve it, but if i can't afford to tip someone, or i think they don't deserve it, i'm sorry, you just can't expect me to pay up the extra.
When i was working i didn't expect to be paid more for doing a good job, doing a good job WAS my job.
Would you tip an engineer for being a good engineer? Or perhaps we should tip gas station clerks. We don't. Why not? They may be terribly nice to us. You wanna know why? Because kindness isn't motivated by greed. If you do your job and expect a tip, and then have the tenacity to say what a lousy person someone is for not tipping you, you should reconsider your views.
A waiter isn't supposed to make far above and beyond minimum wage. It is a low-paying job, and in fact many people do tip (too handsomely I should add). You make more than the cooks do; the reason customers come to a restaurant is for the cooking, right?
If money is what you want, pick another job. Either you're complaining that you get too few tips, in which case being a waiter isn't your thing, or you get way too many tips, in which case WHY ARE YOU COMPLAINING!? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As far as it being our job, yes it is. But most people fail to realize the effort it takes in a respected restaurant to maintain quality service at a table (note to y'all: Chili's is NOT a good example)....and they fail to realize a waiter is providing that service on a busy night for 3-6 tables <i>simultaneously</i>. As far as engineer's not getting tipped for doing their jobs well, that's mistaken. They <b>do</b> many times get bonuses if they come in before deadline and under budget. My store manager at Papa John's gets bonus checks if he does <b>his</b> job well by keeping food cost and labor down. A real estate agent makes an average of 3% of a houses total sales value as a commission. Stock brokers make commissions off the performance of your investment. The only difference between a commission and a tip is that you have no say in the matter at all whether they receive it.
A waiter actually <b>is supposed</b> to make far and beyond minimum wage--that's why their minimum wage is reduced to $2.13/hr as opposed to the regular $5.15/hr. And no, people did not come to my restaurant for the food--or at least that's not what they were paying for. There was a Joe's Crab Shack two parking lots over--they could have gotten seafood there for far cheaper than what they paid in my restaurant. Rather, people came into my restaurant for the atmosphere, and most of all, the quality of <b>service</b> they received.
And finally, the matter isn't about the quantity of money I made....that was never a problem. It was about the principle of the matter....I treat you like royalty for an hour and a half, making 40% of what your son/daughter makes at McDonald's, giving you your every desire the entire time, then you stiff me because you think that tipping is a reward not worth giving? You wouldn't be welcome anywhere I worked ever again.
The problem is Rat, why are you making 40% of what a guy working at Maccas makes? You are working in a high class establishment providing excellent service. Your pay should be very good, and indeed that's the way it works here in Australia. I have a mate who works as a bartender and he gets $27-30/hour. I work at a supermarket and get $17.90 an hour, plus time and a half for overtime or working past midnight. Thats the reason we give good service; our jobs pay well.
A customer comes into a store to pay for a service or product. They deserve good treatment because that is your job. If the company is giving you a crappy wage (and the wages you describe are very crappy), do something about it. Quit the job for another company. Unionise (do you guys even HAVE unions?). Frankly, I reckon the entire American system needs a complete overhaul. Tipping is something you do in recognition of outstanding service. <b>You should not be paying a person wages when you tip</b>. All it should be is a bonus.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Oct 31 2003, 11:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Oct 31 2003, 11:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem is Rat, why are you making 40% of what a guy working at Maccas makes? You are working in a high class establishment providing excellent service. Your pay should be very good, and indeed that's the way it works here in Australia. I have a mate who works as a bartender and he gets $27-30/hour. I work at a supermarket and get $17.90 an hour, plus time and a half for overtime or working past midnight. Thats the reason we give good service; our jobs pay well.
A customer comes into a store to pay for a service or product. They deserve good treatment because that is your job. If the company is giving you a crappy wage (and the wages you describe are very crappy), do something about it. Quit the job for another company. Unionise (do you guys even HAVE unions?). Frankly, I reckon the entire American system needs a complete overhaul. Tipping is something you do in recognition of outstanding service. <b>You should not be paying a person wages when you tip</b>. All it should be is a bonus. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're misunderstanding something. The FEDERAL GOVERNMENT deems that is the minimum allowable wage for people in that industry. Any intelligent company is going to realize people tip, as they should, and therefore, they are not going to pay anything above minimum wage. Especially the way the unemployment rate is running over here right now, they can afford to not pay anymore than they do because there are so many people without jobs....
like I said, the problem is NOT the money, and I've said that several times. It is the PRINCIPLE of rewarding someone for waiting on you hand and foot--and doing so from a marked handicap in the first place.
I thought it was about the money. I thought the whole point of this thread was about the money. If you feel offended if you don't get a tip (which will happen), then you should pick a job without tips. Simple as that. You might even get paid more.
Comments
Corporate philosophy has killed the personality of society. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IT'S THEIR JOB!
Should I say it again?
IT'S THEIR JOB!
Would you tip an engineer for being a good engineer? Or perhaps we should tip gas station clerks. We don't. Why not? They may be terribly nice to us. You wanna know why? Because kindness isn't motivated by greed. If you do your job and expect a tip, and then have the tenacity to say what a lousy person someone is for not tipping you, you should reconsider your views.
A waiter isn't supposed to make far above and beyond minimum wage. It is a low-paying job, and in fact many people do tip (too handsomely I should add). You make more than the cooks do; the reason customers come to a restaurant is for the cooking, right?
If money is what you want, pick another job. Either you're complaining that you get too few tips, in which case being a waiter isn't your thing, or you get way too many tips, in which case WHY ARE YOU COMPLAINING!? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not a single statement here is worth a rebuttle. You seem a little too jaded and on edge about the issue. I never said anyone should expect a tip. Im not sure where this "tenacity to complain about what terrible people non-tippers are" comes from, or why you seem to assume I am a waiter. its thier job or not, we have a custom. If you dont like it, dont abide by it...America allows you that freedom. I would never have expected that such a small issue would have such irate reactions, is this really such a passionate issue for you?
As for tipping -- I'm kind of ambivalent about the system, but I pretty much like it. It's a way to get money to employees who need it, without having it taxed... taxes don't touch tips, right? I can see how on one hand good service could be rewarded by raises and not firing employees, but I know that if I didn't feel I had to tip, I never would... and if the employers had to raise wages, they'd indubitably raise the prices of food 15% so why get your panties in a bunch about tipping to begin with?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you have no appreciation for a societies customs, go to a place where those customs are not honored. Its a simple show of appreciation for a someone elses hospitality. Its social value outwieghs its monitary value. Tipping occurs in advanced societies, where money is valued over most everything else but gratuity in one form or another is universal. In a money driven society, money it is the way we motivate, stimulate, show approval and so on. Its also an easy way to show appreciation while remaining annonomys, and without actually having to care. Ifpeople willing to "invest" $5000 into a faceless company that may bring about some benifit, why not put $5 to the benifit of another person whos service likely benifited you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then I don't think I understand the purpose behind this entire paragraph. Please englighten me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Im not sure where this "tenacity to complain about what terrible people non-tippers are" comes from, or why you seem to assume I am a waiter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was my fault. "You" was a general term to mean any waiter out there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->we have a custom. If you dont like it, dont abide by it...America allows you that freedom.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good, you see my point as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would never have expected that such a small issue would have such irate reactions, is this really such a passionate issue for you?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No more passionate than you are for taking your time to respond to my post.
Unfortunately, they do. The typical system relies on the receiver of the tips to report them through their employer and the result shows up on their paycheck.
I do believe in tipping, but i only ever do it if the person deserves it. While we've established pretty much that because of the reduced minimum wage for waiters, etc, is lower, they rely on tips to make a decent enough pay to live on, right.
I have actually gotten someone fired from their job for complaining about the tip. I'd just eaten a meal with a friend or two, and being young, we could only afford about £5 or so in tips between us, this isn't because we're not generous, this isn't because we hated the waiter, it's because we simply couldn't afford it. Anyway, aformentioned waiter went on and made some snide comments as to the amount we tipped and insulted us as to being cheapskates. We got this jerk fired right in front of us.
Some people seem to expect to be tipped, this is what i don't agree with. If someone does a great job i will happily clear out my pockets and give them whatever i can, because they do deserve it, but if i can't afford to tip someone, or i think they don't deserve it, i'm sorry, you just can't expect me to pay up the extra.
When i was working i didn't expect to be paid more for doing a good job, doing a good job WAS my job.
Should I say it again?
IT'S THEIR JOB!
Would you tip an engineer for being a good engineer? Or perhaps we should tip gas station clerks. We don't. Why not? They may be terribly nice to us. You wanna know why? Because kindness isn't motivated by greed. If you do your job and expect a tip, and then have the tenacity to say what a lousy person someone is for not tipping you, you should reconsider your views.
A waiter isn't supposed to make far above and beyond minimum wage. It is a low-paying job, and in fact many people do tip (too handsomely I should add). You make more than the cooks do; the reason customers come to a restaurant is for the cooking, right?
If money is what you want, pick another job. Either you're complaining that you get too few tips, in which case being a waiter isn't your thing, or you get way too many tips, in which case WHY ARE YOU COMPLAINING!? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As far as it being our job, yes it is. But most people fail to realize the effort it takes in a respected restaurant to maintain quality service at a table (note to y'all: Chili's is NOT a good example)....and they fail to realize a waiter is providing that service on a busy night for 3-6 tables <i>simultaneously</i>. As far as engineer's not getting tipped for doing their jobs well, that's mistaken. They <b>do</b> many times get bonuses if they come in before deadline and under budget. My store manager at Papa John's gets bonus checks if he does <b>his</b> job well by keeping food cost and labor down. A real estate agent makes an average of 3% of a houses total sales value as a commission. Stock brokers make commissions off the performance of your investment. The only difference between a commission and a tip is that you have no say in the matter at all whether they receive it.
A waiter actually <b>is supposed</b> to make far and beyond minimum wage--that's why their minimum wage is reduced to $2.13/hr as opposed to the regular $5.15/hr. And no, people did not come to my restaurant for the food--or at least that's not what they were paying for. There was a Joe's Crab Shack two parking lots over--they could have gotten seafood there for far cheaper than what they paid in my restaurant. Rather, people came into my restaurant for the atmosphere, and most of all, the quality of <b>service</b> they received.
And finally, the matter isn't about the quantity of money I made....that was never a problem. It was about the principle of the matter....I treat you like royalty for an hour and a half, making 40% of what your son/daughter makes at McDonald's, giving you your every desire the entire time, then you stiff me because you think that tipping is a reward not worth giving? You wouldn't be welcome anywhere I worked ever again.
A customer comes into a store to pay for a service or product. They deserve good treatment because that is your job. If the company is giving you a crappy wage (and the wages you describe are very crappy), do something about it. Quit the job for another company. Unionise (do you guys even HAVE unions?). Frankly, I reckon the entire American system needs a complete overhaul. Tipping is something you do in recognition of outstanding service. <b>You should not be paying a person wages when you tip</b>. All it should be is a bonus.
A customer comes into a store to pay for a service or product. They deserve good treatment because that is your job. If the company is giving you a crappy wage (and the wages you describe are very crappy), do something about it. Quit the job for another company. Unionise (do you guys even HAVE unions?). Frankly, I reckon the entire American system needs a complete overhaul. Tipping is something you do in recognition of outstanding service. <b>You should not be paying a person wages when you tip</b>. All it should be is a bonus. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're misunderstanding something. The FEDERAL GOVERNMENT deems that is the minimum allowable wage for people in that industry. Any intelligent company is going to realize people tip, as they should, and therefore, they are not going to pay anything above minimum wage. Especially the way the unemployment rate is running over here right now, they can afford to not pay anymore than they do because there are so many people without jobs....
like I said, the problem is NOT the money, and I've said that several times. It is the PRINCIPLE of rewarding someone for waiting on you hand and foot--and doing so from a marked handicap in the first place.
I thought it was about the money. I thought the whole point of this thread was about the money. If you feel offended if you don't get a tip (which will happen), then you should pick a job without tips. Simple as that. You might even get paid more.