How To Beat Ha Train?
Crow
Melbourne Join Date: 2003-01-16 Member: 12376Members
Melbourne Join Date: 2003-01-16 Member: 12376Members
<div class="IPBDescription">No clue</div> My thoughts as to how to beat a tight HA train killing everything is to:
1. Deprive them of rt. - Hard when they just come back and kill it. Rebuilding a new one
2. Attack them to devover*spelling* with onos - Hard when they have Lvl 3 armour and Lvl 3 Wep. Hmg and couple of nades. Shotties. Redempt cows go down in no time. 100 rez down the drain. :S
3. Attack outposts instead of trains - Works if u get the phasegate down first.
4. Major teamwork - Lerks with umbra covering an onos and two fades, with gorges healing and biling. *Difficult on a pub to organise but would work... till the nades come :S*
Any one got ne other ideas?
1. Deprive them of rt. - Hard when they just come back and kill it. Rebuilding a new one
2. Attack them to devover*spelling* with onos - Hard when they have Lvl 3 armour and Lvl 3 Wep. Hmg and couple of nades. Shotties. Redempt cows go down in no time. 100 rez down the drain. :S
3. Attack outposts instead of trains - Works if u get the phasegate down first.
4. Major teamwork - Lerks with umbra covering an onos and two fades, with gorges healing and biling. *Difficult on a pub to organise but would work... till the nades come :S*
Any one got ne other ideas?
Comments
If they're L3 weap/arm with HA, HMG, GL and medspam, then THEY HAVE BEATEN YOU.
Be more aggressive as an alien. Likewise, some rines ask how they are meant to kill Onos as LA - cooperation, and attacking hives sooner so that alien res is channelled into defence. If they go Onos, you just rush their undefended hive. GG.
Prevention is better than cure. 8 skulks will NOT kill competent welder HA with all the toppings. Its not imbalance, its called losing. If marines had enough time to tech up ALL of that, then aliens must have been sitting on their backside twiddling their thumbs while hoarding for Onos.
Finally, as a good example of how HA can be killed in small numbers, as 4 skulks we managed to kill 2 HA when they rushed our final hive at endgame. We managed to take out another two before the marines ALL rushed together. Persistence and teamplay DO work.
If they're L3 weap/arm with HA, HMG, GL and medspam, then THEY HAVE BEATEN YOU.
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I disagree. There have been games where marines get all the tech and half the map and still lost.
As to how people did it...it usually happens by the neglect of one specific outpost. May it be marine start or hive locations. This doesn't really happens on a well organized commander tho. So inorder to let such a situcation happen, you have to create a neglection of an area. Use the commander against them. Hyper sensitive command will usually call their marines at the first sign of trouble. So what you do is fake a rush at an location and go for the other. Only lifeform that can do this is a fade or a celerity skulk. At that point if you're a lerk ono or gorge, you should focus on delaying the movement of the heavy train by not going head on with them, but delaying/playing/fooling.
So this is what I did one game as an example. Marines has 5 resource towers and subsector hive ha/hmg/gl in ns veil and was starting to move out of subsector into nano/cargo hive. The meat of our team, suicide skulks/onos/gorges/lerks was slowing down the movement of the ha train but it seems like the marines are still moving closer. I would pester the marine base as a skulk ( and eventually fade when I had the resources) to keep a few marines busy in their base (more like 3-4 because I took down an upgrade armory as suicide skulk). When I had resource to go fade, I joined my teams effort in subsector. When the commander realize the hive has aliens amass outside of it, he (so I would think) called all his ha from nano(they had double resource room)/marine start to the hive. As soon as I saw the marines say "/stuck" I knew they were in a hurry so I blinked as fast as I could to the marine start, calling one fellow skulk with me and we took down the phase gate, not long after commander came out with full ha/hmg suit and try to drive us away but I waited till he spend all his ammo and claw him to death, needless to say the game was over when we took out their base after a relocation into the subsector hive which pinned marines down for the rest of the game.
Moral of the story, if you're not the right lifeform to kill ha, stick with onos and try to pick off scraps (onos...stomp stomp stomp, dont even bother goreing!!), but if there aren't any onos, try to pester and delay the marines until your team got the resources to do so. By pester I mean killing resource towers/luring marines out of post/parasiting for sneak phase/tf. Main point is to attack where they are not...
um...I chase if I was the ha. Of course within eye sight of my teammates.
<b>Strength: How many hives? How many upgrades?</b> If one then you have almost no chance to beat a heavy train unless you pull of some crazy ambush. If two, then it becomes easier if you have an Onos (stomp) and Umbra. With three hives it becomes easier, although you still need the higher lifeforms and teamwork.
<b>Resources: What lifeforms do you have at your disposal?</b> This is obvious. Fades will get cut up by a heavy train, unless they are hitting from behind while the heavies are distracted. Lerks take too long to spike heavies, although they can wreak havoc with three hives and primal scream. Skulks are weaker than fades. Onos makes taking down heavy trains that much easier, as long as there are two hives - otherwise it is cannon fodder.
<b>Situational: What hive is being attacked? What area of the map are the heavies in?</b> With stomp, a heavy train can be denied access to certain areas. Otherwise, can the Lerk get away in time if attacked? Can skulks rain from the ceilings without being discovered first?
It isn't just as simple as "how to take down a heavy train". There are plenty of ways to do it, but in some circumstances some will work while others will lose the game. Then you have to consider the skill of the heavy armor and of Kharaa. Define more parameters and then the discussion will come to something useful.
No offense intended, but this was your response last time in another thread and it resulted in a horrible long drawn out flame war.
I <b>know</b> prevention is the best way to stop this. But I was hoping someone would come up with a solution instead of more preventative measures. Of course prevention is the best maneuver, I know this from pubbing experience! But we need another alternative. Think of it as equality. For the sake of balance, we need to be able to equal the marines at their own level of tech.
And yes I think I am kinda hijacking this thread, but I am only pushing it in the direction it was already going. Someone has to be proactive in the absence of the thread-starter... I do feel kind of guilty though.
IMO, the key to beating HA is confusing the hell out of them. once you get an onos or fade in the middle of the train and a few anklebiting skulks, they will most likely forget welding and possibly become separated. if you are and onos, wait for the umbra spam, run in, gore a few times, then take a marine as a snack and get out (preferably the GLer, as they tend to kill the onos while they are retreating). hopefully your team will do the same. if you attack them in a chokepoint they may even retreat to opposite sides, all the better.
but, like other people said, if your team consists of 9 people with 80 res, and one hive, you pretty much lost. just take your beating like a man and don't f4.
If they have to walk to get to a hive, harrass them along the way. A lerk keeping distance with umbra will sap some armor and health, but any HMG fire will cut you to pieces if you don't react instantly.
Adrenaline while onos might be a better option than celerity. You need to keep them stunned, because any sustained HMG/shotty fire will kill you quickly.
1 Onos can pretty temporarily neutralize an HA train long enough let some skulks and fades take down 1 or possibly 2.
2 Onos can pretty much negate a HA train all together. Take turns stomping, the one not stomping at the time devours one, and then joins in on the stomping, the other during his breather devours another, and your fellow teammates finish off the leftovers.
Just keep stomping, the weapon is very strong against HA.
Lots of good advice in this thread.
My main strategy as Fade in these kind of situations is to attack one mini-base then run around to another, then another and another. And in between healing up. Don't waste your time sitting in a room with an eleced node! If you've gotten damaged while attacking it, then run around to a mini-base and strike at it! Then run back to the node you were beating up! Are some heavies advancing on an area? Get in there and take a swipe or two, then run away and go back to that node you were beating up. Basically, whenever you're hurt you should be running to a different area and take full advantage of the marine's lack of mobility. Are all of them going for a hive? Punish them by taking the PG and TF in a mini-base.
Another fun strat is to take Adren and Regen as a Skulk and fly by every marine you can find and make them waste their ammo and time. And the silent Skulk often works to get in 4+ hits on a Heavy before it dies. Silence + Regen for constant ambushes, you just have to be smart enough to not get tagged.
All of this isn't so much methods to take down Heavies, but things you can do on your own when they pose a threat. If enough people do these things then you can retake ground after losing whatever you were probably going to lose anyway. You do this well enough then the marines will run out of res and you can win through pure attrition.
at·tri·tion
n.
1. A rubbing away or wearing down by friction.
2. A gradual diminution in number or strength because of constant stress.
3. A gradual, natural reduction in membership or personnel, as through retirement, resignation, or death.
4. Repentance for sin motivated by fear of punishment rather than by love of God.
I love my dictionary and my dictionary loves me. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If the prove to be well organised (I.E, pwn me), i go and check out all their outposts. I take down what i can, then go and help take the train down.
This actually won us a clan match. It wasn't a HA train, it was a JP/HMG train, and they were good (and it was our first game, so we sucked really). Once i realised that i couldn't really do anything, i got help from an Onos and we went and ate their base. The onos died when the CC was on 1 red bar, and i just managed to finish it off before they dropped another one. GG
If you have 2+ onos: pincer attack! One onos comes from one direction, stomps, and in general causes trouble. Other onos comes from other direction, stomps, devours, causes chaos. Rest of team does whatever they can without blocking the exit of the onos. If you have more than one onos, you can afford to lose one, and it pays to be more aggressive (it may be hard to get subsequent attacks in), so hit them hard. The most important thing is just staying out of each others' way.
I disagree. There have been games where marines get all the tech and half the map and still lost.
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If they're turtling in base, or have been slow on the attack, then yes I'd agree. I've also cited the example of skulks taking out smacktard HA.
However, if the HA train is in your hive and you're nothing bigger than a gorge, then you should EXPECT to lose. You can win, you can claw some time from them, but with an HA train on the move your aliens are on BORROWED TIME. Even if you take out base, a welder HA train can shuffle from hive to hive, and I've seen them take out the final hive as their base went down.
I really disagree with people turning endgame situations (where they have LOST) into complaints about balance or "unkillable" opponents. Face it - if you're getting screwed at endgame, then you've lost, pure and simple. And if you've lost, then the only counter is to get a better tactic for next game.
I really disagree with people turning endgame situations (where they have LOST) into complaints about balance or "unkillable" opponents. Face it - if you're getting screwed at endgame, then you've lost, pure and simple. And if you've lost, then the only counter is to get a better tactic for next game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen.
1. Stomp spam works
2. Massive Umbra and Spore spam works (spores decrease FPS and visibility of marines)
3. Webs and snares (webs that are completed as the HA walks by, to avoid welders) work
4. Silenced and cloaked abilities help to make for a better ambush
The people in this forum have changed my mind and i agree with most of them. You need an ONO to equal the HA. A defensive one Onos or two aggressive ones and a bit of teamwork helps your cause heaps!
On my pub, if marines do get full upgrades on my server it never means either, aliens do also have a couple of onos walking around and it'll normally gameover for Marines. Or Marines are winning quite confidently and were going to win either way. As stated, it does not always mean gg.
The problem came to me when *Like after all bad games you think it's gota be someone elses fault <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> * i had a game where we had three hives, all upgrades and it was the latter of the above full upgrade scenarios. It was an Aussie Server, so we are talking quality here <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. We failed at the teamwork and playing the defensive role against these tight HA who took us down from three hives to zero hives. (Although we even did take down their MS once and two outposts, they had too much rez i know.)
Thanks to everyone that posted. Lots of great ideas here. (This should be a thread that ppl new->intermediate to the game read)
Probably go in a aliens tactics manual or something
This takes distraction, skill, and patience. You can't do this to an entire group unless you break them up. It's worked for me on several occasions, and the only times it doesn't work is when the 'rines see me coming. It's all in your tactical approach.
The same works against Onos, if we aren't talking about an end-game situation where the only thing you have left is marine start. Wait till the onos is out trying to take a hive, then rush one of the other hives fast enough to either totally distract the aliens, or even trade them hive for hive. It will cost them res and time to build the one they just captured.
The way to beat slow movers is to be smarter, faster, and have better timing.
Onos / HA < Fade / JP. Unless the onos was accompanied by a gorge with 10 res and one of the hives is a movement chamber hive, the marines can leave that slow moving horn on wheels busy trying to get back to the hive as they Weap3Shottie it in ten seconds. Ditto, if three quarters of the alien team is throwing themselves as skulks at the HA train and the higher evolved life forms are off in a pack ravaging marine bases one by one, you are still doing them more damage than they are doing to you.
Marines have the advantage with this tactic of course, since they aren't confined to having "Hive" locations where-in if they are forced out, they are screwed, however, in tournament mode, when killing all hives doesn't auto-kill the aliens, the aliens can manage to do this as well, which can lead to very funny situations involving an onos and a pair of skulks [edit: Without a hive to respawn them] trying to hunt down a quartet of HA who don't have a command chair or IPs, and are somewhat isolated from their last remaining armories and phase gates. (aliens won, human reliance on guns + no more ammo = GG)
This is why scouting, and carefully watching the locations of the enemy can turn many situations around. It's also another reason people should usually be considering fades and JPs as their first high level toys. I mean besides the fact that fades and JPs are cheaper and often times more effective when used right.
example: celerity gorge spits at rines. 2 chase the helpless (*ahem*) gorge, while the rest of the group ignores him and keeps going. the 2 ha's run into the gorge's webs. gorge healsprays them to death. if the marines are better than that... gorge still lures them away, but skulks are waiting to kill the ha's. even if the gorge gets killed, if you take out 2 ha's (or even one!) its worth it.
lerks also work for this, they're fast (for getting away), can annoy ha w spikes
get some higher evolutions to attack from the front... and a lerk to use umbra... having cloaking is a plus but not needed and silence is the key. you wait till the HA are somewhere dark and get the other aliens to attack. sneak up behind all of the HA and take down the one in the back with say, a GL or a shotty. rinse / repeat. its so easy it is sad. the HAs will think that something infront of them is attacking them. when you see a HA turn around then attack him, he prolly has low armor or HP...
A concerted Onos rush will force the marines to split up, usually because half the train are dead. If they continue, then they're at half strength, and if they wait for the others then they're sitting ducks for the next Onos charge. Thats the point where HA trains are split up.
Second if all the HA are out of base, you can take the opportunity to rush base and take down the IPs - Which I've done using Silence right under the nose of the enemy commander.
TBH though I don't see the point of trying to beat an HA train on one hive, since there's very very very good odds that you just got pwned.
That's the point!
I don't know why some people still complain... or if they say: "Sieging the last hive is lame." It belongs to the game, it is possible to perform it in the game and that's all.
Better improve yer teamwork, mates!