Prejudice Against Sub-cultures
esuna
Rock Bottom Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15175Members, Constellation
Rock Bottom Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15175Members, Constellation
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Something very close to me.....</div> Oh well, it's halloween again, and once again the neanderthals once again start the random shouting of insults. It's usually at this time of year that i get the same comments. Up to and including halloween it's always "Nice costume for halloween you have there" and the week or so afterwards it's usually "Halloween was last week".
This is a problem that is not, by any means, exclusive to halloween, it's just it appears that more jerks seem to have the audacity to make innappropriate comments at this time.
What i'm talking about is the prejudices against sub-cultures. By this i'm talking punks, goths, ravers... whatever really. Mostly "alternative" groups.
I've made it absolutely no secret about the <a href='http://www.btinternet.com/~diesirae/example.jpg' target='_blank'>way i am and the way i dress</a>, i have nothing to hide, i'm not ashamed in the slightest. But why, exactly, do people feel the need to shout insults in the middle of the high street in the middle of the day, with hundreds of other shoppers in earshot. What posesses them to act like this and hurt people who have done <i>nothing</i> to hurt them in any way. Does the fact that i wear black seem to offend people? Does the fact that i have spikey hair seem to cause people pain? Do my piercings seem to ridicule them? No. How i dress and look is entirely my choice and i'm sick of people putting me down for being myself
I've been told over the years to ignore them, but i'm sorry, if people are going to <b>throw things</b>, i find it a bit hard to ignore them, i find that usually gets my attention pretty well. On the other hand, i've been told time and time again by people (<b>Not</b> my parents, they support me entirely in my own decisions) that it's just a phase, well sorry, it's been some 7 years or so since i started dressing this way, and i don't see it stopping any time soon.
So.. yeah, what do you think makes people act this way? What is it about my appearance (And the appearance of countless others in most "alternative" sub-cultures) that seems to offend people?
This is a problem that is not, by any means, exclusive to halloween, it's just it appears that more jerks seem to have the audacity to make innappropriate comments at this time.
What i'm talking about is the prejudices against sub-cultures. By this i'm talking punks, goths, ravers... whatever really. Mostly "alternative" groups.
I've made it absolutely no secret about the <a href='http://www.btinternet.com/~diesirae/example.jpg' target='_blank'>way i am and the way i dress</a>, i have nothing to hide, i'm not ashamed in the slightest. But why, exactly, do people feel the need to shout insults in the middle of the high street in the middle of the day, with hundreds of other shoppers in earshot. What posesses them to act like this and hurt people who have done <i>nothing</i> to hurt them in any way. Does the fact that i wear black seem to offend people? Does the fact that i have spikey hair seem to cause people pain? Do my piercings seem to ridicule them? No. How i dress and look is entirely my choice and i'm sick of people putting me down for being myself
I've been told over the years to ignore them, but i'm sorry, if people are going to <b>throw things</b>, i find it a bit hard to ignore them, i find that usually gets my attention pretty well. On the other hand, i've been told time and time again by people (<b>Not</b> my parents, they support me entirely in my own decisions) that it's just a phase, well sorry, it's been some 7 years or so since i started dressing this way, and i don't see it stopping any time soon.
So.. yeah, what do you think makes people act this way? What is it about my appearance (And the appearance of countless others in most "alternative" sub-cultures) that seems to offend people?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
It happens to loads of people. A lot of my friends are a bit.... alternative (one of my friends wears s3x-whips and pink fluffy handcuffs on his belt), and they put up with the same kind of thing. I'm tall, and overweight (sod that, fat), so i get a lot of it too. But me being big makes me pretty strong too, and as i said in another thread somewhere, i don't get hurt easily (unless it's sharp, punches and stuff like that don't effect me much).
**EDIT**
Btw, you look pretty good in that picture. heh
maybe they are just doing it for a joke,a nd if oyu told them they would stop, maybe they are doing just to get a reaction, and if oyu ignore them they will stop, or maybe they are doing it because they feel threatened by someone who isnt afraid to go the other way to the flow. I used to get picked on, i ignored it and it mostly stopped. You say it has been going for 7 years, but mainly around haloween, if you add the time up, it has only been going on for about 3 1/2 months. Hopefully they will grow up sooner or later, or you could beat them up. it worked for me.
maybe they are just doing it for a joke,a nd if oyu told them they would stop, maybe they are doing just to get a reaction, and if oyu ignore them they will stop, or maybe they are doing it because they feel threatened by someone who isnt afraid to go the other way to the flow. I used to get picked on, i ignored it and it mostly stopped. You say it has been going for 7 years, but mainly around haloween, if you add the time up, it has only been going on for about 3 1/2 months. Hopefully they will grow up sooner or later, or you could beat them up. it worked for me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As i stated, it's not exclusive to halloween at all, it happens all year round (Yes, even on Christmas), i must admit it was far far worse 7 years ago when i was back in school, the usual bullying, then when i was 18 i was attacked severely several times after going to a club. There's people that say ignore it, but i've had people i've ignored run ahead of me, and walk infront of me holding a knife, also i could fight back or do something, but hell, i'm just one person and as another avenue to explore, 'they' tend to be in groups of 4 or more.
Just a little information, i'm 21 and a total pacifist, so fighting back is not an option.
I notice you address the idea that they may be threatened by my ability to do something different, i don't know about that....
The antagonistic people you're speaking of, IMHO, don't have that same level of confidence and they seem to believe that those with extreme modifications are trying to expose an inferiority simply by walking into the room. I believe this is similar to the bully scenarios you might find in a high school setting. The "geeks" or "nerds" (as it was in my day) may appear different or don't bother to consider others when going about their business. This can bother some peoples sense of ego and it can cause them to act out.
I'm no psychologist and I could be completely off track but that's just my opinion. I came to this opinion because before I considered myself a memeber of this sub-culture, I had on occasion participated in some bullying scenarios.
bah. This rambling is starting to look like some cathartic confession. I better stop now.
come to somerset. we got loads of strange people round here. you would fit right in
(not saying that you are strange... just... different. well... normal for somerset)
do you have any mates you can go with? sounds like the just pick on you because you are alone. get a couple of frends and go clubbing with them. then refuse to walk home on your own. they sound like the typical bully, trying to get a kick out of making other people feel bad.
i hate people like that
When you're that bored about class, you resort to things like picking on people who look different than you. Totally shallow reasons for totally shallow behavior.
As for my personal experience: It went from girls wanting to make out with me in sixth grade, to insults in junior high school when I gained fifty pounds, to general ignoring after I became incredibly hostile in the initial part of high school. I think it was when I started expressing extremely... antisocial behavior that people went hands off. No one clapped during my diploma recieving during graduation, even if I was on good terms with a number of them by then. Now, six years later, it's back to girls (and guys) wanting to make out with me.
So what do these parts add up to? Simple... High school was completely meaningless to me, a way to get into college so I could study something I wanted to. I have friends, good friends, who are on my level now. I can get along just fine. I'm working hard to get published so my name is floating out there, most likely prior to the ten year reunion... It'd be funny if I went in like with a reputation (like my sister wants to, as her magnet school experience was far worse than mine), but, eh, who cares? I do what I do. High school was four years. What else can I say? My first masturbation experience was more important to me than high school.
To sum up: don't wallow in it. Don't try to hold on to the fact you'll be out of there. Experience it for the shallow experience that it is. You are <i>not</i> crawling in your skin. It's a very zen thing to consider, but don't think about it that way. These years are NOT important and, by extention, these people are NOT important. So why make it more than it is?
(PS: ironically enough, the punks in our school were incedibly popular. Even had a full entry in the yearbook because of their incredibly eccentric behavior. They carried a large banner into school rallies as they worked very hard to disrupt them. I didn't get along well with many of them, even though I was listening to punk at first as well, but looking back, they were a group who knew how to live life well.)
EDIT: You **** got ahead of me!
I do only go out clubbing with friends now (Before i used to turn up to the club and just know pretty much everyone there <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and i do refuse to walk home alone, it's deeply scarred me, i can't walk to or from the club at all anymore, i always get a ride or a taxi there. Oh, and this club is just a mile away.
Basically through bad experiences i won't set foot anywhere alone at night for fear of getting attacked again.
/edit I glanced at your pick Esuna, there's nothing wrong about you...and people tease you? *Le Sigh*
I know a few total jerks at my school, that have this really irritating manner of shouting insults at every other person that happens to pass by.
We once had a small debate with a teacher about socialism, and she said that it has good sides to it, just that so far all nations using socialism have failed in using it. Everytime she walks past them, she gets called "a communist dog". She doesn't say a thing though, but I can see that she doesn't like it. And the jerks are having tons of fun because they made fun of someone.
Every goth in our school (im on senior high) get's called "Musti", which means something like "Blackey", something you could name your dog with.
But it's a fact that people first see what you wear. And they make the very first conclusion of you by judging your clothing and your style. If you have needles and piercings all over, punky clothes and spunky hair, people are ofcourse going to assume that you a wild anarchist who doesn't have a job.
But to be honest, if I saw you on a street, my first idea would be something like "Whoa, someone is stuck in the 80's...". Ofcourse I wouldn't be rude enough to say it out loud, but some people would be.
But hey, just don't care. If you like what you wear and look like, it shouldn't matter what people say out loud at ya. They are just immature prat's that say stuff like that (mentally) . I've been called a communist many times because I like to wear a Che Guevara t-shirt, and I get many odd looks from some people when I wear my Iron Maiden t-shirt. But I don't care. And you shouldn't either.
Just lift your head up high and blow your brains out. Or don't.
You want to dress in Goth, you want to ignore your weight problem, or anything like that, that's your perogitive, do what you want. But there's a price, and I'm not going to sit on my **** and pretend you don't exist.
I have to definately agree with your points there. Giving up certain job markets is one thing that is a side effect of dressing as you would like, it just means you have to look a little deeper and a little harder. I must say though, by doing this i ended up working in the most unexpected of places, a threatre (Yes, an actual one) working as a backstage technician, and i must say it was the most fullfilling and enjoyable experience of my life. Prior to that i applied at various music shops and so on, no i didn't expect to get far, but i'm kinda glad that i didn't.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Oct 31 2003, 09:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Oct 31 2003, 09:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find goth visually offensive, so I'm offensive back. The same way with morbidly obese people, etc.
You want to dress in Goth, you want to ignore your weight problem, or anything like that, that's your perogitive, do what you want. But there's a price, and I'm not going to sit on my **** and pretend you don't exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would you mind backing that up with as to why you find it offensive? Why is there a price of expressing yourself how you want? (No, i'm not referring to people with weight problems, that's an entirely different subject)
Finally, someone willing to step out and be a little controversial. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
*EDIT: While i am entirely wishing that you all voice your opinion, if you do, please at least back it up with facts or reasons, as with any other discussion, an argument without any reason is, well, pointless. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>Fun Fact 2!</b> Not a single goth buys Hot Topic's sub-standard, overpriced, merchandise. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>Fun Fact 2!</b> Not a single goth buys Hot Topic's sub-standard, overpriced, merchandise. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honey, I don't care. I buy budgeted Diesel and Express jeans from TJ Maxx. For 15 bucks a pop. Victory is mine!
<b>Fun Fact 2!</b> Not a single goth buys Hot Topic's sub-standard, overpriced, merchandise. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honey, I don't care. I buy budgeted Diesel and Express jeans from TJ Maxx. For 15 bucks a pop. Victory is mine! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, do you mean TK Maxx? We have that place, i buy Macgear trousers that are usually ~?70 for ?19. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>Fun Fact 2!</b> Not a single goth buys Hot Topic's sub-standard, overpriced, merchandise. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honey, I don't care. I buy budgeted Diesel and Express jeans from TJ Maxx. For 15 bucks a pop. Victory is mine! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, do you mean TK Maxx? We have that place, i buy Macgear trousers that are usually ~?70 for ?19. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait, where are you from?
EDIT: also, I am obligated to mess with everyone who isn't me.
<b>Fun Fact 2!</b> Not a single goth buys Hot Topic's sub-standard, overpriced, merchandise. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honey, I don't care. I buy budgeted Diesel and Express jeans from TJ Maxx. For 15 bucks a pop. Victory is mine! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, do you mean TK Maxx? We have that place, i buy Macgear trousers that are usually ~?70 for ?19. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait, where are you from? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
England.
But anyway, can we get back on topic now, PM me if you want to discuss shopping, heh. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well for one, I don't like body mutiliations, short of pierced ears and possibly belly buttons.
I dont' mind people that wear black, hell, I used to wear black constantly because I ran Stage Crew and it was a requirement, but wearing a leash I find distasteful, same for fishnets, etc.
And frankly, if you wanted to be 'alternative', then why goth? There's plenty of people that already dress in fishnets and bodage in public, it's hardly anything 'unique' anymore.
I don't know how I can 'reason' that I find it offensive. I mean, that's like asking me to reason with a frenchman why underarm hair on women is disgusting. What am I supposed to say? It's natural. It's just a preference.
So I really have nothing to say aside from that I think 'modern goth' is distasteful, far from 'unique' or 'original', and just visually offensive. Men wearing black eyeliner and lipstick isn't a social turn-on for me :/
So if you don't like people abusing you, it MIGHT be because they don't like you because you're different, but it might also quite possibly be because they're like me: They don't like being offended, and the way you dress they consider offensive.
Imagine if I went out with a shirt with goatse on it. I might be expressing myself, but... yeah... needless to say, I probably won't be wearing that shirt for long.
Imagine I went out with a shirt that said 'I want all n***ers to die.' In ho-dunk, South Carolina, some people would love that shirt. In Chicago, I'd be dead before noon.
There is a price for expressing yourself how you want. In an art gallery, I can choose not to look at certain art. In public, you're shouting 'EVERYONE LOOK AT ME!!! ME!!! RIGHT HERE!!!'. You stand out from the rest, and maybe that's your intention, but it's also annoying. How do you tell an attention wh0re from a pacifist who's expressing themselves?
Being chubby isn't bad. I'm talking about the sweaty guys who run out of breath getting out of a chair and need to sit on two chairs side by side.
And frankly, if you wanted to be 'alternative', then why goth? There's plenty of people that already dress in fishnets and bodage in public, it's hardly anything 'unique' anymore.
I don't know how I can 'reason' that I find it offensive. I mean, that's like asking me to reason with a frenchman why underarm hair on women is disgusting. What am I supposed to say? It's natural. It's just a preference.
So I really have nothing to say aside from that I think 'modern goth' is distasteful, far from 'unique' or 'original', and just visually offensive. Men wearing black eyeliner and lipstick isn't a social turn-on for me :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly i'd like to say that i'm referring to all "alternative" sub-cultures, not just goth, although it would seem you have a specific distaste for what people would call "babybats" or "doom cookies".
You seem to be making some very broad generalisations, i don't know if it's because it's the only thing that bugs you, or if it's just because you don't actually know anything about goth styles of dress.
Personally, myself, i frown upon people that wear leashes in public, i don't outright hate them since it's their choice, but you wouldn't catch me doing it. As to raising the term "unique". While many people claim to be unique, it's only the truely ignorant that believe it. Dressing as a goth, or whatever, as you state is dressing "alternatively", that is "alternative" from the general accepted norm, it's not an attempt at being unique (Unless, as i said, they're just plain ignorant).
I'm not even going to comment on your comments on french people and underarm hair, but all i will say is racist generalisation and stereotypes don't sit well with me.
I see you also raise the point of "modern goth". Do you have any opinions on what people would term "Trad / Traditional Goth" or the people who were "there" in the 1970's / 1980's for the original goth sub-culture?
Finally, you make the presumption that all goth men wear black eyeliner and lipstick. I can tell you for a fact, in the numerous amounts of goths i know, and the great deal more that i see at clubs, that there is a very small percentage that actually do wear makeup in clubs, let alone on the street in daytime. What makes you think that just because some people do so, that all of them must?
*EDIT:
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Oct 31 2003, 09:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Oct 31 2003, 09:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well for one, I don't like body mutiliations, short of pierced ears and possibly belly buttons. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I notice the use of the word "mutilation", i, personally, prefer the term "modifications". What makes you consider ear and navel piercings to be acceptable and other piercings not acceptable? How do you draw the line. From the sound of it you're taking your opinions from what is considered normality or acceptable from elsewhere, not your own personal belief. Navel piercings would have been considered just as controversial several decades ago, what's changed about them to make them acceptable in this day and age?
Or don't buy either, that would make a lot more sense.
Being chubby isn't bad. I'm talking about the sweaty guys who run out of breath getting out of a chair and need to sit on two chairs side by side. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I tend to agree. However the core to all societies problems are its economy, so blame the system.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--cwaggy+ whenever--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cwaggy @ whenever)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its kinda funny. "Preppies" for example, dress the same way together, and shun against whoever isn't like them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'm fairly preppy, banana republic and all that..
but i think i have a major thing for punky girls. this one in my english class.. RRGH the looks she gives me, i could just f***ing tackle her..
alas, i am already involved.
but yeah i mean, not EVERYONE has prejudices >_<
I have to definately agree with your points there. Giving up certain job markets is one thing that is a side effect of dressing as you would like, it just means you have to look a little deeper and a little harder. I must say though, by doing this i ended up working in the most unexpected of places, a threatre (Yes, an actual one) working as a backstage technician, and i must say it was the most fullfilling and enjoyable experience of my life. Prior to that i applied at various music shops and so on, no i didn't expect to get far, but i'm kinda glad that i didn't.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is interesting, to me.
if you dress in the manner required for a job, is it <i>conformity</i> or just putting up with some sh*t so you can make some money?
you have to wash your hands all the time when you work at a restaurant.. that's not conformity. it's part of your job.
what's the deal? =\
I have to definately agree with your points there. Giving up certain job markets is one thing that is a side effect of dressing as you would like, it just means you have to look a little deeper and a little harder. I must say though, by doing this i ended up working in the most unexpected of places, a threatre (Yes, an actual one) working as a backstage technician, and i must say it was the most fullfilling and enjoyable experience of my life. Prior to that i applied at various music shops and so on, no i didn't expect to get far, but i'm kinda glad that i didn't.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is interesting, to me.
if you dress in the manner required for a job, is it <i>conformity</i> or just putting up with some sh*t so you can make some money?
you have to wash your hands all the time when you work at a restaurant.. that's not conformity. it's part of your job.
what's the deal? =\ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not so much a case of conforming, it's about having the conviction to stick to what you believe in, dispite the ramifications.
If you were entirely opposed to not washing your hands, would you do it?
I'm vegetarian, and dispite my appearance, i wouldn't work with meat.
This is a topic that has been brought up in several debates at uni recently, and it's something that intrigues me, to be honest. While the job market is pretty weak, you still have the ability to make your own choices, i wouldn't choose to have a job that meant going back on something i believed in, i've thought several times about removing my piercings to get a job, and every time i've not done it, and still i've found jobs willing to take me for my skills, and not my appearance.