<!--QuoteBegin--George_The_Gorge+Nov 22 2003, 05:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (George_The_Gorge @ Nov 22 2003, 05:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> People usually go dc first not because of the upgrades but because it can help heal ocs. Sc first on lost is awsome, but people still whine even when I do it. (And this is after I ask them). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The reason why everyone goes dcs first nowadays is because regen fades KICK **** <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DMS is most popular because it's the easiest to pull off. It's not the best combination, but it's the one that requires the least thought to use, and people like to be lazy.
The_CheatIt's a The Cheat!Join Date: 2003-11-19Member: 23191Members, Constellation
edited November 2003
When 2.0 first came out, I was always dropping SC's first. But, I never bothered to ever get cloaking. To me, cloaking is useless because you have to chance that a marine will happen to wander by. I always get Scent of Fear from SC, because then you can easily know where the marines are and hide if you see them coming your direction. No chance required. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
But, since most commanders I see on pubs nowadays almost always get obs up early, SC has become redundant as the first chamber. DC or sometimes MC has been the way to go because of this. The D-M-S route works all the time, but it does get old. M-D-S works too, and is a bit different, but S-D-M or S-M-D is very hard to win with nowadays on pubs with even halfway decent commanders.
One of the reasons why SCs aren't chosen first is because of it's easy counter-measure. You can just use a scanner sweep to find it and that's it., you lose the cloaking effect.
DCs and MCs on the other hand need to be killed in order for their effect to be halted.
Of course, I won't have qualms unless we get a DSM order and marines have locked down a hive.(which often meant Onos dying)
Some interesting comments, but so far only 1 person has mentioned one of the best aspects of sc - FUN. It is absolutely hilarious for a squad of 3-4 skulks to keep sneaking up on the marines and chewing their ankles off, again, and again, and again.
On a lame alien team, sc doesn't really do much, but then again, if the team is lame, you're unlikely to win anyway, unless the marines are really thick. I also think that dc first is often the cause of late evolves to higher aliens - how many times do you see people get cara, get killed, get cara, get killed...... I never get cara, its just a waste of res on a skulk.
Oh, and if the marines have a two hive lockdown by the time you have enough res to build your hive, then obviously you're not working well as a team, and are very likely going to lose anyway.
Maps like Tanith are wonderful for sc first. Other maps, like Bast, are not.
FUN??? You play this game for FUN??? What kind of sick, twisted person are you?! We need to be overbearingly serious and try to win every map, because FUN IS STUPID. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Quite honestly, I think SC's, if used in the appropriate manner without a bunch of total morons, is actually a viable solution to making sure the marines never get another resource node. Usually silence is my kind of style with a skulk: run behind them, and laugh as they can't hear you bite their legs off. They won't turn around until they hear their friends gun hit the floor, and by that time, you will have killed his friend too. Then you can dance (usually the jumping in circles maneuver) in glee until his third friend turns the corner and plasters you in your own blood on the wall. But if your good, you'll have skipped the dancing process and ran away for another super-silent-skulk-attack, only to be followed by the familiar "thunk" of grenades hitting the vent you're hiding in, and the complete and utter vaporization of your uber "elite" skulk.
Seems to me chamber selection is all about playing style. I lik scs right off the abt becuase i suk at anything besidews a skulk and r a little camping biotch. On the up note, i can almost always get the second hive going in under 5 minutes with kill for res on. After that dcs are a good addition to fight of the upgraded weps and armour, but if you know how to use cloaked skulks well, you won't be getting hit enough to care about regen.
Also, if there is a player going fade for res hunting, just have him fallowed by a gorge. That is better team work than dropping dcs at the start.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because that is the kind of thinking that made the jetpack rush so goddam boring in 1.04, it works! lets do it every single game until the server admin bans anyone doing it! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not the player's fault for that. It's the game itself. If one strat does work so well, it is obviously overpowered, as the jp rush in 1.04 was, or the other options are all underpowered. That's where game balancing comes into play; trying to balance the playing field so that multiple strategies are viable.
DMS as it stands will remain the order even in 2.1. Focus really doesn't give sensory the boost that is required to match the king of all upgrades, regen.
For all you people saying that sens shouldn't be first because it does nothing for Fade and Onos, let me just say that anyone who goes onos before the second hive(which would give you dc) goes up is a res **** and dosen't deserve regen or redempt. Sensory is my favorite chamber and I think it gives a much better advatnage to the aliens.
If you put a sens chamber up you can kill <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> that walks into that are with just one <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> .
There are countless people on my local servers who edit their video card settings,use h4xed models,or use wallhacks,so cloaked skulks = fodder.
Also if a good fade appears at 5 minutes,it generally means game over for marines(dont give me BS about shotgunners....any good fade can take on 3-4 shotgunners with ease.Btw good fades dont die unless they get blocked,or they screw up.Its because of blink.Good fades never die since they can just blink away to saftey anytime they want.).
<!--QuoteBegin--Tygent+Nov 22 2003, 11:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tygent @ Nov 22 2003, 11:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For all you people saying that sens shouldn't be first because it does nothing for Fade and Onos, let me just say that anyone who goes onos before the second hive(which would give you dc) goes up is a res **** and dosen't deserve regen or redempt. Sensory is my favorite chamber and I think it gives a much better advatnage to the aliens.
If you put a sens chamber up you can kill <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> that walks into that are with just one <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> .<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First off, I'm not picking on you here Tygent, just this is the closest post to the end of the thread like this and I wanted to elaborate.
PUB PLAY: Well, aliens go sens first, so the smart move for marines would be to get the obs and grab PGs asap (there goes the "kill them as they leave there base theory) as well as armor 1 (armor 1 gives you that "first bite is free" feel for the marines since they can take 2 more after the intial bite). Now, since most of the time the marines grab a hive location right away (and elect 2-3 nodes), there will be a battle for that second hive. Building an obs everywhere they need to hold, the marines can siege out any cloaked structures with little surprise (add motion tracking and you can see them anywhere if you are around and obs, but it's not needed just yet). And with multiple obs, the comm can scan at will to reveal cloaked aliens.
Now once the marines take the second hive, due to no effective fades/lerks because when they get hit they have to run/blink/fly to the nearest gorge (who is really low on adren for heal spray) or the hive (kinda far to leave the action where you are needed) and the skulks are getting beaten by the phasing marines + turrets, the marines fortify AND electrify what they need to.
THIS is where the onos would come in handy, a big "tank" to wipe out the entrenched marine base and help take the hive back. But now it will take a good 3-5 mins more to get one (depending on the kill/death ratio of the two teams), and by then the marines should have lvl 2(3) weap/lvl 2 armor with the armory just about upgraded, and the onos with NO stomp OR ability to heal QUICKLY enough (heal spray is 20hp a pump, regen is about 50 or so) is very very slow and will get mowed down in no time. All that's really left is to rush the marine base.... good luck.
Sure it doesn't always happen like this, but on the servers I play on, this is how it ends up 80% of the time (I play on about 6 servers frequently). And I do agree that it is map connected, some maps are more sens friendly. However I will play with whatever chamber the majority want to play with, I just don't like getting stuck with something someone felt like THEY wanted to play with.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it's good fades that win games in 2.01. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--George_The_Gorge+Nov 22 2003, 05:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (George_The_Gorge @ Nov 22 2003, 05:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> People usually go dc first not because of the upgrades but because it can help heal ocs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is no longer the case. Now that the gorge does not have a fortune to spend, ocs are rarely backed by dcs. Ironically, sc's are the ones that gets dropped near the ocs.
<!--QuoteBegin--Hunty+Nov 22 2003, 10:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hunty @ Nov 22 2003, 10:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> DC is the best,whether you like it or not.
There are countless people on my local servers who edit their video card settings,use h4xed models,or use wallhacks,so cloaked skulks = fodder. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think we should make NS around hackers and cheaters. If an alien team puts down an SC first, they can kick the marine's collective a** with one simple tactic. Here is how to do it:
1) EVERYONE go gorge. Build 3 SCs and have everyone work on them. 2) Everyone go skulk get Cloaking. 3) Walk into the marine base. 4) Have lunch on anything that moves. 5) Eat the IPs. 6) Crack open the CC like a big walnut & have the comm for an after dinner snack.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Take Your D>m>s And Shove It Please<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Main Problem is that SC puts you in a more defensive position. You are only cloaked if you are near to an SC, you stand still or walk (hold shift) if you got cloaking upgrade. This puts you more into defense than in offense because it wont help you at point on the map where no sc is build and you have no cloaking. Here an Example. Marines got luckily 2 Hives secured with an obs, phase gate and lets say 2 turrets because the round just begun. What do you do <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->? nothing because there is nothing that can help you in this situation. Even higher Lifeforms wont help because they got no regen or adrenaline.
Sens have nice upgrades but they dont help you in Combat. Regen Heals you in Combat and Adrenaline give you energie. But how does cloaking, phero, sens of fear help you in combat ? It only helps to notice marines earlier (I have good ears so i dont need Sens of fear) or moving into Combat unnoticed. But when the First Heavy comes you are in a lot of trouble and even higher lifeforms will be dead in a few seconds without DC or MC. This is the Reason for DMC.
But if the Alien team works good together SC first could be devastating
<!--QuoteBegin--$in+Nov 22 2003, 11:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ($in @ Nov 22 2003, 11:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Tygent+Nov 22 2003, 11:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tygent @ Nov 22 2003, 11:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For all you people saying that sens shouldn't be first because it does nothing for Fade and Onos, let me just say that anyone who goes onos before the second hive(which would give you dc) goes up is a res **** and dosen't deserve regen or redempt. Sensory is my favorite chamber and I think it gives a much better advatnage to the aliens.
If you put a sens chamber up you can kill <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> that walks into that are with just one <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> .<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First off, I'm not picking on you here Tygent, just this is the closest post to the end of the thread like this and I wanted to elaborate.
PUB PLAY: Well, aliens go sens first, so the smart move for marines would be to get the obs and grab PGs asap (there goes the "kill them as they leave there base theory) as well as armor 1 (armor 1 gives you that "first bite is free" feel for the marines since they can take 2 more after the intial bite). Now, since most of the time the marines grab a hive location right away (and elect 2-3 nodes), there will be a battle for that second hive. Building an obs everywhere they need to hold, the marines can siege out any cloaked structures with little surprise (add motion tracking and you can see them anywhere if you are around and obs, but it's not needed just yet). And with multiple obs, the comm can scan at will to reveal cloaked aliens.
Now once the marines take the second hive, due to no effective fades/lerks because when they get hit they have to run/blink/fly to the nearest gorge (who is really low on adren for heal spray) or the hive (kinda far to leave the action where you are needed) and the skulks are getting beaten by the phasing marines + turrets, the marines fortify AND electrify what they need to.
THIS is where the onos would come in handy, a big "tank" to wipe out the entrenched marine base and help take the hive back. But now it will take a good 3-5 mins more to get one (depending on the kill/death ratio of the two teams), and by then the marines should have lvl 2(3) weap/lvl 2 armor with the armory just about upgraded, and the onos with NO stomp OR ability to heal QUICKLY enough (heal spray is 20hp a pump, regen is about 50 or so) is very very slow and will get mowed down in no time. All that's really left is to rush the marine base.... good luck.
Sure it doesn't always happen like this, but on the servers I play on, this is how it ends up 80% of the time (I play on about 6 servers frequently). And I do agree that it is map connected, some maps are more sens friendly. However I will play with whatever chamber the majority want to play with, I just don't like getting stuck with something someone felt like THEY wanted to play with. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I was going to post a situation similiar to this, but I think Sin wrapped it up nicely. You guys are only considering the first 2 minutes of the game where marines are still getting their act together and preparing to move out. After that, sensory becomes exponentially less effective to the point where you are wishing you had defense chambers to combat those damn marine entrenchments. Sensory is ONLY good for stopping the occasional rambo, against organized assaults they will get shredded apart. I can't imagine losing as comm with a half-decent team against sensory aliens.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but not only does D>M>S require less effort by the alien team, you also have a solid beginning game as well as a superior end game. D>M>S is here to stay for 2.01, anyone that argues otherwise needs to reconsider the benefits and drawbacks of going sensory first.
Sensory rocks if your team knows how to use it. With sensory, you can deny the marines safe passage throughout the map, given your team knows what to do...
The huge drawback is that if you let the marines secure a hive, you're going to lose that valuable chamber (movement or defense) that makes those Oni, fade, and lerks powerful. The gameplan with sensory is get it fast, and don't let the marines walk and secure anything.
<!--QuoteBegin--Keyser59+Nov 23 2003, 12:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Keyser59 @ Nov 23 2003, 12:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry to burst your bubble, but not only does D>M>S require less effort by the alien team, you also have a solid beginning game as well as a superior end game. D>M>S is here to stay for 2.01, anyone that argues otherwise needs to reconsider the benefits and drawbacks of going sensory first. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright, for you narrow-minded people, this is what a good team of sensory aliens can do: kill a 4 man 3/3 HA train with nothing but two skulks, one lerk, and a gorge. Here is how we pulled it off:
First, sporespam the marines. It doesn't do damage, but it does blur their vision, making skulks harder to see. (plus they usually stop to type "hey n00b! spores don't hurt HA! LOLOLOLO" etc.) Second, have the gorge draw the marine's fire. Third, the skulks just have to <b>walk</b> in behind the marines, and start chomping. That's +150 marine res gone, in about 30 seconds.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dragon_Mech+Nov 23 2003, 02:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dragon_Mech @ Nov 23 2003, 02:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Keyser59+Nov 23 2003, 12:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Keyser59 @ Nov 23 2003, 12:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry to burst your bubble, but not only does D>M>S require less effort by the alien team, you also have a solid beginning game as well as a superior end game. D>M>S is here to stay for 2.01, anyone that argues otherwise needs to reconsider the benefits and drawbacks of going sensory first. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright, for you narrow-minded people, this is what a good team of sensory aliens can do: kill a 4 man 3/3 HA train with nothing but two skulks, one lerk, and a gorge. Here is how we pulled it off:
First, sporespam the marines. It doesn't do damage, but it does blur their vision, making skulks harder to see. (plus they usually stop to type "hey n00b! spores don't hurt HA! LOLOLOLO" etc.) Second, have the gorge draw the marine's fire. Third, the skulks just have to <b>walk</b> in behind the marines, and start chomping. That's +150 marine res gone, in about 30 seconds. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Now the problem, how the heck are we gonna get <u>THAT</u> organized?
That's the problem with pubs nowadays, they simply won't listen >:/ Plus this would sort of near clan-level play so bleh
<!--QuoteBegin--RaVe+Nov 23 2003, 01:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RaVe @ Nov 23 2003, 01:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now the problem, how the heck are we gonna get <u>THAT</u> organized? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yell, scream, threaten, abuse - whatever it takes. Plus, once your little squad has pulled this off, pretty much the entire team starts to listen to you.
i love sc first, gorges can cloak, skulks can sneak into the base or attack without any risk to be killed, and every <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> deserves to be kicked at the first hive <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
the problem is that one Ob in the base can ruin this, but you can still cloak at their base entrances
but normally i build dcs first, the whole team shouts at me if i build SCs <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
MCs are cool too, i killed so many rines with silence , and they didnt even realize im behind them biting their ****
but a skilled player would turn around, most of them <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Mythr1l+Nov 22 2003, 10:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mythr1l @ Nov 22 2003, 10:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Take Your D>m>s And Shove It Please<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines got luckily 2 Hives secured with an obs, phase gate and lets say 2 turrets because the round just begun. What do you do ? nothing because there is nothing that can help you in this situation. Even higher Lifeforms wont help because they got no regen or adrenaline.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunetly, because of the game design and peoples stupidity .. mostly peoples stupidity .. is whats causing the continual D>M>S patterns in all versions of NS past.
People always think you have to rush the marines. People always think that you need to have that extended life upgrade. People never think when they attack a marine. People always think ambushing is a sucky tactic.
You never have to rush the marines. If you're a skulk you'll take under half a magazine of LMG ammo and die. Your dead. You can't do anything when you're dead. Yup. Really good idea to rush those marines head on when they're looking at you covering that corner you just sprung out from... Not.
You dont need the extended life upgrade. All you need is a good brain and a good thought process and you can out-smart the enemy. 2 shots from shotgun kills a fade? Maybe you shouldn't walk upto the marine next time. Jesus! It aint that hard to think, is it!? Blink onto a rafter near a door, a marine comes, you jump down, and slice his head off. Turrets? Aw, d***, looks like you're gonna need some gorge's <b>TEAM WORK AND BACKUP</b> to kill them off with <b>BLINKING FADES</b>. Observatory? GET FOCUS AND NOTHING ELSE! Phase gate? SPORES; otherwise, head in with lerk bite and focus! OK, lets see: Gorges, Check. Fades, Check. Lerks, Check.
Alright, this will be quick so hold on: spores on the PG and distracting turrets while fades blink in and out swiping TF + PG with focus and gorges hanging back heal spraying and dropping SCs or OCs to distract turrets. If there are too many turrets fades go for the Obs and again lerks distract turrets and spore PG. Once Obs down gorges SC and OC rush the area and saturate with chambers. Marines in the way? Fade + focus with heal spray + gorges right in marine's faces; fades distracting marine here. Lerks use spore and focus bite on all marines. Onos could be used here, but only for a <b>turret</b> bullet soaking machine needing 2 gorges to continually heal. Hive 2 regained. Use bile bomb, umbra, stomp, and get DCs if you're so concerned about winning.
Ambushing isn't a sucky tactic. Players will and DO get pwned by a player with cloaking or a player that dropped in on them unexpectedly. I killed 3 marines in the lower viaduct floor as they were building a turret factory. They were looking downwards and building. They never saw it (aka. ME) comming for them. Two of them litterally died instantly, and the third one posed a minor inconveniance. I jumped from the top of the Power Silo side ladder <i>onto</i> them. <b>I f***ing killed them in under 5 seconds.</b> Sensory chamber cloak effect + focus (+ silence) in a hallway wouldn't be much different.
Ya, so the skulks walk behind the 2 heavies and start chomping. How many chomps does it take for a HA to die? More than the time required for a heavy to spin around and kill you in .2 seconds with 4 HMG bullets!
I don't care what you say, sensory blows for anything other then a skulk. Try to rationalize it with stupid, make-believe situations and made-up lies you call 'true stories' all you want, once marines get level 2 upgrades, you're going to regret sensory and watch your fades all get mowed down.
Stop arguing... it's just a different game at the top levels than the bottom levels. Sensory might work well vs marines who's aim sucks, but not vs a good comm/marines. Also whoever said a good fade can kill 3-4 shotgunners... lol. Maybe if the shotgunners can't aim. Again, it's a question of top level of play vs lower levels. Different strategies work for different levels of play. In top levels, fades with regen pretty much win games.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The reason why everyone goes dcs first nowadays is because regen fades KICK **** <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
=P
DMS is most popular because it's the easiest to pull off. It's not the best combination, but it's the one that requires the least thought to use, and people like to be lazy.
But, since most commanders I see on pubs nowadays almost always get obs up early, SC has become redundant as the first chamber. DC or sometimes MC has been the way to go because of this. The D-M-S route works all the time, but it does get old. M-D-S works too, and is a bit different, but S-D-M or S-M-D is very hard to win with nowadays on pubs with even halfway decent commanders.
DCs and MCs on the other hand need to be killed in order for their effect to be halted.
Of course, I won't have qualms unless we get a DSM order and marines have locked down a hive.(which often meant Onos dying)
EDIT : Fixing wrong wording <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
On a lame alien team, sc doesn't really do much, but then again, if the team is lame, you're unlikely to win anyway, unless the marines are really thick. I also think that dc first is often the cause of late evolves to higher aliens - how many times do you see people get cara, get killed, get cara, get killed...... I never get cara, its just a waste of res on a skulk.
Oh, and if the marines have a two hive lockdown by the time you have enough res to build your hive, then obviously you're not working well as a team, and are very likely going to lose anyway.
Maps like Tanith are wonderful for sc first. Other maps, like Bast, are not.
Quite honestly, I think SC's, if used in the appropriate manner without a bunch of total morons, is actually a viable solution to making sure the marines never get another resource node. Usually silence is my kind of style with a skulk: run behind them, and laugh as they can't hear you bite their legs off. They won't turn around until they hear their friends gun hit the floor, and by that time, you will have killed his friend too. Then you can dance (usually the jumping in circles maneuver) in glee until his third friend turns the corner and plasters you in your own blood on the wall. But if your good, you'll have skipped the dancing process and ran away for another super-silent-skulk-attack, only to be followed by the familiar "thunk" of grenades hitting the vent you're hiding in, and the complete and utter vaporization of your uber "elite" skulk.
D does not help the low levels that much. Lerk and gorge somewhat
S is much improved now. The counters are still appropriate but always easier with clan and small teams.
Also, if there is a player going fade for res hunting, just have him fallowed by a gorge. That is better team work than dropping dcs at the start.
if you have a -good- team which communicates and is able to use it effectively.
shame you have a team like that once in a decade on most pubs
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It's not the player's fault for that. It's the game itself. If one strat does work so well, it is obviously overpowered, as the jp rush in 1.04 was, or the other options are all underpowered. That's where game balancing comes into play; trying to balance the playing field so that multiple strategies are viable.
DMS as it stands will remain the order even in 2.1. Focus really doesn't give sensory the boost that is required to match the king of all upgrades, regen.
If you put a sens chamber up you can kill <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> that walks into that are with just one <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> .
There are countless people on my local servers who edit their video card settings,use h4xed models,or use wallhacks,so cloaked skulks = fodder.
Also if a good fade appears at 5 minutes,it generally means game over for marines(dont give me BS about shotgunners....any good fade can take on 3-4 shotgunners with ease.Btw good fades dont die unless they get blocked,or they screw up.Its because of blink.Good fades never die since they can just blink away to saftey anytime they want.).
If you put a sens chamber up you can kill <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> that walks into that are with just one <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> .<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, I'm not picking on you here Tygent, just this is the closest post to the end of the thread like this and I wanted to elaborate.
PUB PLAY:
Well, aliens go sens first, so the smart move for marines would be to get the obs and grab PGs asap (there goes the "kill them as they leave there base theory) as well as armor 1 (armor 1 gives you that "first bite is free" feel for the marines since they can take 2 more after the intial bite). Now, since most of the time the marines grab a hive location right away (and elect 2-3 nodes), there will be a battle for that second hive. Building an obs everywhere they need to hold, the marines can siege out any cloaked structures with little surprise (add motion tracking and you can see them anywhere if you are around and obs, but it's not needed just yet). And with multiple obs, the comm can scan at will to reveal cloaked aliens.
Now once the marines take the second hive, due to no effective fades/lerks because when they get hit they have to run/blink/fly to the nearest gorge (who is really low on adren for heal spray) or the hive (kinda far to leave the action where you are needed) and the skulks are getting beaten by the phasing marines + turrets, the marines fortify AND electrify what they need to.
THIS is where the onos would come in handy, a big "tank" to wipe out the entrenched marine base and help take the hive back. But now it will take a good 3-5 mins more to get one (depending on the kill/death ratio of the two teams), and by then the marines should have lvl 2(3) weap/lvl 2 armor with the armory just about upgraded, and the onos with NO stomp OR ability to heal QUICKLY enough (heal spray is 20hp a pump, regen is about 50 or so) is very very slow and will get mowed down in no time. All that's really left is to rush the marine base.... good luck.
Sure it doesn't always happen like this, but on the servers I play on, this is how it ends up 80% of the time (I play on about 6 servers frequently). And I do agree that it is map connected, some maps are more sens friendly. However I will play with whatever chamber the majority want to play with, I just don't like getting stuck with something someone felt like THEY wanted to play with.
Well said.
This is no longer the case. Now that the gorge does not have a fortune to spend, ocs are rarely backed by dcs. Ironically, sc's are the ones that gets dropped near the ocs.
There are countless people on my local servers who edit their video card settings,use h4xed models,or use wallhacks,so cloaked skulks = fodder. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think we should make NS around hackers and cheaters. If an alien team puts down an SC first, they can kick the marine's collective a** with one simple tactic. Here is how to do it:
1) EVERYONE go gorge. Build 3 SCs and have everyone work on them.
2) Everyone go skulk get Cloaking.
3) Walk into the marine base.
4) Have lunch on anything that moves.
5) Eat the IPs.
6) Crack open the CC like a big walnut & have the comm for an after dinner snack.
No.
You are only cloaked if you are near to an SC, you stand still or walk (hold shift) if you got cloaking upgrade.
This puts you more into defense than in offense because it wont help you at point on the map where no sc is build and you have no cloaking.
Here an Example. Marines got luckily 2 Hives secured with an obs, phase gate and lets say 2 turrets because the round just begun. What do you do <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->? nothing because there is nothing that can help you in this situation. Even higher Lifeforms wont help because they got no regen or adrenaline.
Sens have nice upgrades but they dont help you in Combat.
Regen Heals you in Combat and Adrenaline give you energie.
But how does cloaking, phero, sens of fear help you in combat ?
It only helps to notice marines earlier (I have good ears so i dont need Sens of fear) or moving into Combat unnoticed. But when the First Heavy comes you are in a lot of trouble and even higher lifeforms will be dead in a few seconds without DC or MC. This is the Reason for DMC.
But if the Alien team works good together SC first could be devastating
If you put a sens chamber up you can kill <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> that walks into that are with just one <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> .<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, I'm not picking on you here Tygent, just this is the closest post to the end of the thread like this and I wanted to elaborate.
PUB PLAY:
Well, aliens go sens first, so the smart move for marines would be to get the obs and grab PGs asap (there goes the "kill them as they leave there base theory) as well as armor 1 (armor 1 gives you that "first bite is free" feel for the marines since they can take 2 more after the intial bite). Now, since most of the time the marines grab a hive location right away (and elect 2-3 nodes), there will be a battle for that second hive. Building an obs everywhere they need to hold, the marines can siege out any cloaked structures with little surprise (add motion tracking and you can see them anywhere if you are around and obs, but it's not needed just yet). And with multiple obs, the comm can scan at will to reveal cloaked aliens.
Now once the marines take the second hive, due to no effective fades/lerks because when they get hit they have to run/blink/fly to the nearest gorge (who is really low on adren for heal spray) or the hive (kinda far to leave the action where you are needed) and the skulks are getting beaten by the phasing marines + turrets, the marines fortify AND electrify what they need to.
THIS is where the onos would come in handy, a big "tank" to wipe out the entrenched marine base and help take the hive back. But now it will take a good 3-5 mins more to get one (depending on the kill/death ratio of the two teams), and by then the marines should have lvl 2(3) weap/lvl 2 armor with the armory just about upgraded, and the onos with NO stomp OR ability to heal QUICKLY enough (heal spray is 20hp a pump, regen is about 50 or so) is very very slow and will get mowed down in no time. All that's really left is to rush the marine base.... good luck.
Sure it doesn't always happen like this, but on the servers I play on, this is how it ends up 80% of the time (I play on about 6 servers frequently). And I do agree that it is map connected, some maps are more sens friendly. However I will play with whatever chamber the majority want to play with, I just don't like getting stuck with something someone felt like THEY wanted to play with. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was going to post a situation similiar to this, but I think Sin wrapped it up nicely. You guys are only considering the first 2 minutes of the game where marines are still getting their act together and preparing to move out. After that, sensory becomes exponentially less effective to the point where you are wishing you had defense chambers to combat those damn marine entrenchments. Sensory is ONLY good for stopping the occasional rambo, against organized assaults they will get shredded apart. I can't imagine losing as comm with a half-decent team against sensory aliens.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but not only does D>M>S require less effort by the alien team, you also have a solid beginning game as well as a superior end game. D>M>S is here to stay for 2.01, anyone that argues otherwise needs to reconsider the benefits and drawbacks of going sensory first.
The huge drawback is that if you let the marines secure a hive, you're going to lose that valuable chamber (movement or defense) that makes those Oni, fade, and lerks powerful. The gameplan with sensory is get it fast, and don't let the marines walk and secure anything.
Alright, for you narrow-minded people, this is what a good team of sensory aliens can do: kill a 4 man 3/3 HA train with nothing but two skulks, one lerk, and a gorge. Here is how we pulled it off:
First, sporespam the marines. It doesn't do damage, but it does blur their vision, making skulks harder to see. (plus they usually stop to type "hey n00b! spores don't hurt HA! LOLOLOLO" etc.) Second, have the gorge draw the marine's fire. Third, the skulks just have to <b>walk</b> in behind the marines, and start chomping. That's +150 marine res gone, in about 30 seconds.
Alright, for you narrow-minded people, this is what a good team of sensory aliens can do: kill a 4 man 3/3 HA train with nothing but two skulks, one lerk, and a gorge. Here is how we pulled it off:
First, sporespam the marines. It doesn't do damage, but it does blur their vision, making skulks harder to see. (plus they usually stop to type "hey n00b! spores don't hurt HA! LOLOLOLO" etc.) Second, have the gorge draw the marine's fire. Third, the skulks just have to <b>walk</b> in behind the marines, and start chomping. That's +150 marine res gone, in about 30 seconds. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now the problem, how the heck are we gonna get <u>THAT</u> organized?
That's the problem with pubs nowadays, they simply won't listen >:/ Plus this would sort of near clan-level play so bleh
Yell, scream, threaten, abuse - whatever it takes. Plus, once your little squad has pulled this off, pretty much the entire team starts to listen to you.
the problem is that one Ob in the base can ruin this, but you can still cloak at their base entrances
but normally i build dcs first, the whole team shouts at me if i build SCs <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
MCs are cool too, i killed so many rines with silence , and they didnt even realize im behind them biting their ****
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
but a skilled player would turn around, most of them <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
No. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines got luckily 2 Hives secured with an obs, phase gate and lets say 2 turrets because the round just begun. What do you do ? nothing because there is nothing that can help you in this situation. Even higher Lifeforms wont help because they got no regen or adrenaline.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunetly, because of the game design and peoples stupidity .. mostly peoples stupidity .. is whats causing the continual D>M>S patterns in all versions of NS past.
People always think you have to rush the marines.
People always think that you need to have that extended life upgrade.
People never think when they attack a marine.
People always think ambushing is a sucky tactic.
You never have to rush the marines. If you're a skulk you'll take under half a magazine of LMG ammo and die. Your dead. You can't do anything when you're dead. Yup. Really good idea to rush those marines head on when they're looking at you covering that corner you just sprung out from... Not.
You dont need the extended life upgrade. All you need is a good brain and a good thought process and you can out-smart the enemy. 2 shots from shotgun kills a fade? Maybe you shouldn't walk upto the marine next time. Jesus! It aint that hard to think, is it!? Blink onto a rafter near a door, a marine comes, you jump down, and slice his head off. Turrets? Aw, d***, looks like you're gonna need some gorge's <b>TEAM WORK AND BACKUP</b> to kill them off with <b>BLINKING FADES</b>. Observatory? GET FOCUS AND NOTHING ELSE! Phase gate? SPORES; otherwise, head in with lerk bite and focus! OK, lets see: Gorges, Check. Fades, Check. Lerks, Check.
Alright, this will be quick so hold on: spores on the PG and distracting turrets while fades blink in and out swiping TF + PG with focus and gorges hanging back heal spraying and dropping SCs or OCs to distract turrets. If there are too many turrets fades go for the Obs and again lerks distract turrets and spore PG. Once Obs down gorges SC and OC rush the area and saturate with chambers. Marines in the way? Fade + focus with heal spray + gorges right in marine's faces; fades distracting marine here. Lerks use spore and focus bite on all marines. Onos could be used here, but only for a <b>turret</b> bullet soaking machine needing 2 gorges to continually heal. Hive 2 regained. Use bile bomb, umbra, stomp, and get DCs if you're so concerned about winning.
Ambushing isn't a sucky tactic. Players will and DO get pwned by a player with cloaking or a player that dropped in on them unexpectedly. I killed 3 marines in the lower viaduct floor as they were building a turret factory. They were looking downwards and building. They never saw it (aka. ME) comming for them. Two of them litterally died instantly, and the third one posed a minor inconveniance. I jumped from the top of the Power Silo side ladder <i>onto</i> them. <b>I f***ing killed them in under 5 seconds.</b> Sensory chamber cloak effect + focus (+ silence) in a hallway wouldn't be much different.
DCs 1st, forever! Until Focus, maybe <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Not a skulks vs HAs; SKULKS against <b>a</b> HA. Just fight one at a time.