Spirituality
Smoke_Nova
Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8697Members
Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8697Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Not exactly religious</div> Well, the basis for this thread originally started here:
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=10&t=53637' target='_blank'>Beast's Image Change thread</a>
Now, I noticed a few of you started ragging on him. Why? Is he any different now then he was before that? Is finding your "true" self something that deserves to be mocked and scorned?
Well, I guess my question is really, what do a lot of people have against a person finding themselves spiritually in a form different than what they are expected to?
I know that recently Beast has been talking to me on MSN/AIM a lot lately and...well, while I might be of a slightly *VERY SLIGHTLY* different mind-set, I find nothing he says or does wrong. He has found himself, and if he is happy, then let him be.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=10&t=53637' target='_blank'>Beast's Image Change thread</a>
Now, I noticed a few of you started ragging on him. Why? Is he any different now then he was before that? Is finding your "true" self something that deserves to be mocked and scorned?
Well, I guess my question is really, what do a lot of people have against a person finding themselves spiritually in a form different than what they are expected to?
I know that recently Beast has been talking to me on MSN/AIM a lot lately and...well, while I might be of a slightly *VERY SLIGHTLY* different mind-set, I find nothing he says or does wrong. He has found himself, and if he is happy, then let him be.
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Comments
Well, I guess my question is really, what do a lot of people have against a person finding themselves spiritually in a form different than what they are expected to? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I too talk to Beast on MSN. I even entered the 'den' (badum TISS) and posted some questions, and challenges to his cult leader (cult isn't a bad word, god get the connotation out of your head. Christianity is a cult as well).
Well, look what happened.
<a href='http://www.wolfrivals.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=322' target='_blank'>http://www.wolfrivals.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=322</a>
As you can see, he was less then 'acceptable' about what other people think as well. The US forest preserve stats say there's a half million gray wolves in Wyoming. THEY PUT THEM THERE, THEY SHOULD KNOW. Yet he wants me to believe some stupid 3rd party website that says there's less then 15,000 in the whole WORLD. Uh huh.
And frankly, read through that thread twice. Even three times (You'll see some forumers who followed me through too). It's just downright insulting what these people think, what they believe. "Predators shouldn't be killed. It's unnatural." It's like entering a vegan / nudist / hippie / PETA camp and having to listen to a 16 hour sermon. In some ways, I'm GLAD I know they'll have almost no effect on what happens in the 'Real World'. Yeah sure, I agree that the needless killing of the ANWAR wolves is unnecessary, but these people want wolves to live in our neighborhoods, they don't care.
And Beast IS different. All the love in the world to him, and I love him as a friend, I don't necesarially like his 'new self'. It's distanced, it's... just odd, if you ask me. I don't hold it against him. Another thing, is the reasons why he believes. Just because I like challenging people on this... I know him and like him so I didn't want to offend him, but... c'mon, dream about a wolf, so you were one? And why wolves? Sid believes he's a wolf as well. Why aren't there any badger cults, or llama cults, or House Wren cults?
If no one ever notices my name, then i need to go find a new community.
And how do you know the "cults" such as those you mentioned don't exist?
I think the fact that I don't know if they exist or not is a good thing...
BTW: Just because I *KNOW* Boggle is going to flame me for this:
<b>Cult</b>:
"A system or community of religious worship and ritual. "
The question, why does it only appear to be Wolves and such? Well, parhaps in this day an age, only the Wolves have spoken out about it so far?
For those who wish to read up a bit more on this, after getting it checked over with the moderators/admins, I suggest you go to this site:
<a href='http://www.wolfsoul.org' target='_blank'>http://www.wolfsoul.org</a>
Oh, there is a little mature content on that website, but if you can't handle the maturity, you shouldn't be posting on this forum now, should you <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
That said, the prime reason I think people have things agaisnt spiritual beliefs is ignorance - it's something they do not understand, "therefore it MUST be wrong.."
I think the fact that I don't know if they exist or not is a good thing...
BTW: Just because I *KNOW* Boggle is going to flame me for this:
<b>Cult</b>:
"A system or community of religious worship and ritual. " <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Christianity is a Jewish cult - guilty as charged <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Cults arent by definition bad, but you rarely get looked upon favourably by the religion you offshoot from <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are less than 250,000 Wolves worldwide <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That seems a little dubious, I think that is what is left of one sub population of wolves, but not all of them (all species). That said, Wolves had undergone a massive downfall at the hands of humans, because they tend to attack farm animals which is certainly not good for ones genes.
Edit: I don't have anything else to say now that I've actually read that site and the linked to post. They aren't overly nutty though, at least they aren't like the Raelians and protecting wildlife, especially predators like Wolves, is a damn good thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, I guess my question is really, what do a lot of people have against a person finding themselves spiritually in a form different than what they are expected to? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because people don't like other people being different.
Just as irrational as believing a magical man lives in the sky who will wrathfully punish you if you don't believe in him without any "rational" experience. crapped out the entire existance in seven days. Its fine to comment with logic but your argument is one of ignorance and has hateful undertones.
myself and my fiancee are btoh members of the wolfrivals forum
Ebon is a great guy not a 'cult leader'
you all need to hear the pop. yes the pop when you pull your heads out of your **** for the first time.. cos quite frankly... the fact that any of you can doubt or hate on somebody elses beliefs and choices.. now thats **** up...
Way to blow my cover! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But seriously - I agree with Moquiao - we are free to believe what we want; no matter how "Illogical" it may be.
I said that Beast/Steve had changed. He's changed that now he's ACTING like a wold (Ugh, I keep typing wold instead of wolf). Look at what Ebon was saying:
"I had to go lick myself for a while." "Woof at you" etc.
You're human. You're a Grade A, 32 chromosomed homo sapiens sapiens. You have 2.9 pounds of organic matter in your skull firing electrical pulses in a sequenced matter, connected to the hypothalamus, an organ that works as a sort of memory router and dream machine from the rear parts of your brain.
It gets a little tiresome... I mean, that's like the people who jumped off a building wearing a cape because they thought they were superman.
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In all seriousness, though, I think you may be looking at this from the wrong perspective. I've noticed pretty much every wolf-avatar-sporting poster on this thread refer to me or my colleagues as 'humans,' as if you yourselves are not. I'm pretty sure that since wolves lack the correct appendages required for typing, you are all of the Homo Sapiens Sapiens race.
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Don't you like being human? Some of the posters here are human, some aren't. What you are physically is not always the same as what you are spiritually. Let's just leave it at that.
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Could have sworne we have a few more than 32, but whatever I'm nub.
But either way, just because Beast/Steve believes something different is no reason to treat him like an inferior or flame him. Heck it wasnt even 1 dream that convinced him it was repeated(check his sig change thread) so IMO he has plenty of reason to believe whta he does.
You know, that just sounds utterly...unhealthy actually.
Now that I've been reading that forum for a while, there ARE a couple of them there that seriously need psychiatric treatment to a degree IMO. After a bit of reading their responces and the like, I definitely wouldn't want my kids to join that sort of cult just from the general tone etc. It's alright to believe something that is a bit weird or far fetched, but to think you are in fact a wolf and try and act like one is plain unhealthy psychologically. I can only imagine what would occur if younger kids who aren't as capable of restraint joined such a cult...
Oh, heard of roleplay? People do that all the time, do you call them insane too?
Hence why I said "a couple" do. Read a few books on psychology, there are one or two there that are what I would definitely call batty. Also when I was talking about general tone I was also talking about the other aspects like the website etc. It isn't really like I'm going to argue this with you, you'll never think anything else. To a neutral observer however, even the basic philosophy (Ebon I think writes it) is slightly bent.
It seems more like an odd justification for animal rights activism than anything else.
Human psychology is - in my opinion - incomplete. What some would call insane is sane to others, it's all relative. You cannot really apply psychology to spiritual beliefs without major conflict.
I have spoken to Ebon personally. He is FAR from insane. He has more sense than many humans <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (pun slightly intended)
I agree with Beast.
Not really, psychology is a very deep science that involves a lot of people arguing with one another. However there are clearly things that you can use to determine if the mind is functioning abnormally. Schizophrenia for example is demonstrated often in people who kill their mothers (which is abormal biologically too except in rare cases!). Then again, nobody has any idea if multiple personality disorder has any real cause, and some even don't think it exists. However, there are what are definitely sets of 'healthy' behaviours and some of those are definitely not fully with this set of ideals.
Also on these basic ideals a bit more, some aren't aren't really very justifiable from a psychological perspective (Wolf Metapsychosis part of link earlier). It in fact seems that your base philosophy you've adopted does just what you've criticised me for doing right now, taking psychology and applying it to spirituality- Incorrectly as well I might add.
Funny that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have spoken to Ebon personally. He is FAR from insane. He has more sense than many humans (pun slightly intended) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose it's in the eye of the beholder, and what you think of the 'philosophy' initially.
I stand by that I wouldn't want my kids joining such a cult, because it just seems to have a really rocky base (firstly) and secondly, potentially psychologically damaging.
You know, that just sounds utterly...unhealthy actually.
Now that I've been reading that forum for a while, there ARE a couple of them there that seriously need psychiatric treatment to a degree IMO. After a bit of reading their responces and the like, I definitely wouldn't want my kids to join that sort of cult just from the general tone etc. It's alright to believe something that is a bit weird or far fetched, but to think you are in fact a wolf and try and act like one is plain unhealthy psychologically. I can only imagine what would occur if younger kids who aren't as capable of restraint joined such a cult... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apparently you aren't reading too well. They say they feel inside, spritually they were once or are a wolf. Now, a fairly large religion belives in reincarnation, are they all sick in the head because they believe in that? I think believing in something that makes you feel good is more healthy than trying to belittle people on a forum.
If somebody believes one thing that you do not agree with - well, is that a bad thing? No, not really.
Sure, in some cases it may be a bad thing: but in cases such as this, it's not. There is absolutley nothing wrong with any of this!
It's not like we're injecting some kind of fluid in too our viens, and than forcing others to join a cult...and...I have no clue where I'm getting at this.
Listen - what I'm trying to say is, I'm going to believe what I want to believe, and nothing you say or do can stop me from believing.
Actually - thats not what I'm trying to say, either.
What I'm trying to get out here, is, well - we all look at things in a different view. To some it's good and harmless, to other's it's "bad".
ie: different religions, different races, species, people - the list goes on. We all our different, so what - maybe some of us do not want to "go with the flow" - maybe some of us want to stray from the path - take the road less travelled by, sort of thing.
So - thats it. All this thinking and etc. is makeing my brain cell hurt.
Seeya,
-Sid
You seem to suggest that a belief can be justified by a feeling alone. That is an irrational position to take, as it means assigning equal value to all beliefs and all opinions. Ultimately, it leads to relativism, i.e. indifference towards the validity and soundness of arguments in the name of misguided tolerance.
In other words, reincarnation stands or falls on its own, depending on the quality of the arguments brought up by its proponents. The same is true for the wolf cult. Spiritual feelings, however, are fickle and cannot justify anything.
To quote from The Matrix:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->..being the one is like being in love, nobody can tell you you are, you just know it...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless you were in my position I'd have every expectation you wouldn't understand any of this, but it is something you just -know- and feel, it's pretty much "a part of you". It is in a sense like being in love, but the second you try to define love in a scientific quantity science breaks down because it is not capable of such a thing. To quote my own physics teacher, who is a damn good one at that:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There are many pretty girls in the world, but why do you fall in love with just -that- one? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The answer? No-one knows unless they feel it for themselves.
Try to understand this before going on a "faith is irrational" argument. Do you know exactly how it feels? If not then it's likely you have no real argument <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->