<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is in a sense like being in love, but the second you try to define love in a scientific quantity science breaks down because it is not capable of such a thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. Science is inapt tool when dealing with immaterial things which cannot be measured. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Try to understand this before going on a "faith is irrational" argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would never go on such an argument. My argument is that an opinion/faith-into-a-truth-claim which is logically justifiable is inherently more valuable than an opinion based on inexplicable feelings.
For example, if A told me that "Romeo & Juliet" is a bad play without being able to specify why she holds this opinion, and B told me that "Romeo & Juliet" is a good play and proceeds to present arguments grounded in art history and sound interpretive methodology, then it is evident that B's opinion deserves more credence than A's.
<!--QuoteBegin--Snidely+Nov 26 2003, 12:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Nov 26 2003, 12:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't get why you'd rather be a good wolf instead of a good human being. Just seems a bit odd to me. <i>*indifferent shrug*</i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This I'd personally like to explain in a bit more detail.
Are you happy with being human? Would you still be happy if you suddenly knew of your past life, that it wasn't human and that it felt far more "natural"? Maybe you were "not meant to be human"?
There are a lot of "freaky things" here, and a lot of it boils down to preference - would you rather help others to survive directly or write a new program in c++ that earns you lots of money? Would you rather spend 2 hours hunting this deer so that you and your pack may live, or spend 2 hours in the supermarket working out what you -might- want? Most would go for the human approach, I would rather the Lupine, as strange as that may sound. I would rather work for my food and help others than the human alternative (hardly working at all, and helping just yourself..<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
As for expanding on the "psychologcal health" thing. Thanks to my experiences I understand a lot of things that some might say humans will never learn in a lifetime (this is all relative so meh..). I no longer fear death, only suffering. I better understand myself now, and I am far more relaxed. I also know what love is for myself, but that's something I will end up explaining later if things go well. (it's very difficult to explain at current without getting all kinds of misunderstandings. Let's put it this way, don't think about it too much, or you will get the wrong idea completely and it's likely your perverted and twisted little minds may twist it all out of proportion <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (not mentioning any names *cough*<span style='font-size:4pt;line-height:100%'>Supernorn2000</span>*cough*) )
Also; if anyone does not quite understand my own spiritual standpoint here, PM me and I will be able to explain in better detail. I will only tell [in detail] of my views/faith/belief to those who make the effort to ask, as trying to be open on it...just ends with people calling me a nub/idiot/moron/fanatic.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Nov 26 2003, 05:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Nov 26 2003, 05:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My argument is that an opinion/faith-into-a-truth-claim which is logically justifiable is inherently more valuable than an opinion based on inexplicable feelings.
For example, if A told me that "Romeo & Juliet" is a bad play without being able to specify why she holds this opinion, and B told me that "Romeo & Juliet" is a good play and proceeds to present arguments grounded in art history and sound interpretive methodology, then it is evident that B's opinion deserves more credence than A's. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OK, I'm curious as to why exactly you say one person's 'oppinion' is better than the other's. They(both oppinions) are both qualatative, not quantatative, in that they cannot just be decided by some number of facts. An oppinion is just that, someone's idea on something.
On another note, you stated that an opinion based in scientificly proven fact is more valuable than one based in unexplainable feelings, if science cant prove why one is having said feelings(or in Beast's case dreams/visions etc) Then the science point is pretty much negated.
For example: If person A told you Romeo&Juliet was awful, then procceeded to give you incorrect information, and person B told you R&J was a great play with correct information on play history etc, then it would be safe to say that person B is 'correct'. However, person A is still allowed to have his/her oppinion and beliefs.
If you think that a person should not be allowed to believe what they want based on whatever they choose, no matter how illogical, then there is something quite wrong with you. People everywhere are entitled to freedom of thought.
On that note, I agree with Beast on his views of reincarnation etc. Including the fact about a previous life as a wolf(Feel free to PM me on this subject).
<!--QuoteBegin--Beast+Nov 26 2003, 05:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Beast @ Nov 26 2003, 05:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Are you happy with being human? Would you still be happy if you suddenly knew of your past life, that it wasn't human and that it felt far more "natural"? Maybe you were "not meant to be human"? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well...if I was meant to be anything, I figure I'm meant to be who I am. (But that's beside the point.) I'm just not sure why memory of a past self, although pretty cool, would affect who you are now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are a lot of "freaky things" here, and a lot of it boils down to preference - would you rather help others to survive directly or write a new program in c++ that earns you lots of money? Would you rather spend 2 hours hunting this deer so that you and your pack may live, or spend 2 hours in the supermarket working out what you -might- want? Most would go for the human approach, I would rather the Lupine, as strange as that may sound. I would rather work for my food and help others than the human alternative (hardly working at all, and helping just yourself..:p)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well...while you might help those around you, you'll only be helping out those in your "pack" (presumably). That's pretty much what most people do already. I'm not sure that the "lupine" approach is all that different to a human one, really. And just because you get your food by hunting doesn't mean you "hardly work at all". I don't know who you're basing this on, but they sound like they have it sweet. :P
You seem pretty level-headed about it, so, fair enough. I get that your experiences are different from mine, and vice versa, so maybe it's not possible to reach an understand (especailly since we're communicating via text). Anyway, anything that makes you want to be more charitable can't be all that bad, as long as you watch out for the pit-falls. For example, how the others on that linked forum acted like that - people who think they're better than people, because they're "enlightened".
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
I'm bored, so I thought I should post my 2 cents on the right for everyone to believe what they want.
First off, just to get it out of the way, I'm agnostic leaning strongly towards atheism. Meaning that I believe that when you die you're just dead, the end, but I can't prove it.
I think that the freedom to believe what you want is a sacred right that everyone has and cannot be infringed upon. So if someone wants to believe they have a buddy named jesus or that they used to be a mountain goat then that's fine by me.
My problem comes around when people TALK to each other about it. I believe that the population of the world is mostly dumb and gullible. So whatever any 1 individual gets presented with can become fact to that person in less than the blink of an eye.
So this irks me when people start spreading beliefs that are retarded (keep in mind that this statement is ENTIRELY opinionated). This includes but is not limited to: Greek gods, the tooth fairy, christianity, judaism, spiritual reincarnation, and the idea that "buying a HDTV on a credit card that you don't have to make payments on for 2 years but has really high interest" is a good thing.
For the same reason that crappy products still show up every night on infomercials, people are just too apt to give into blind faith than deal with the hard truth that they can't buy a house with no down payment.
So yes, people have a right to believe anything they want and I won't hate them for that. But the moment they start talking, I have a strong desire to make them exercise their right to SUYF.
But since we live in a world with the internet, people tend to talk at great lengths about stuff like their new imaginary friend that gave them inner peace and it just pisses me off to no end. Because when people talk about it, it becomes an exponentially increasing problem. And in the extreme case you have a continent full of people believing that french is the language of the gods and they'll nuke anyone that says otherwise and it creates a generally bad situation.
And just because I know *someone* is gonna post saying how their beliefs helped them find peace and that I can't deal with that. You should know that I am at peace and do not fear my own death. Only the suffering of dying and missing out on the cool stuff that life has to offer, like playstation 3 and motorcycles that go 210 mph.
In closing, I know this doesn't solve anything, but I still think it's a good thing for people to consider when discussing spirituality/religion, because I know I'm not alone in my beliefs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->OK, I'm curious as to why exactly you say one person's 'oppinion' is better than the other's.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because one opinion is informed and the other isn't. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They(both oppinions) are both qualatative, not quantatative, in that they cannot just be decided by some number of facts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course we're not dealing with mathematical equations, so <i>final</i> judgement is not possible. In our example we've only seen that B deserves more credence than A. It is always possible that C shows up to pwnz0r B. But just because the judgement isn't final doesn't mean that it's invalid. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On another note, you stated that an opinion based in scientificly proven fact is more valuable than one based in unexplainable feelings, if science cant prove why one is having said feelings(or in Beast's case dreams/visions etc) Then the science point is pretty much negated.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please. This is now the second time that someone brings up science when I was talking about reason. I know too much about science to refer to a concept as oxymoronic as "scientifically proven fact". <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For example: If person A told you Romeo&Juliet was awful, then procceeded to give you incorrect information, and person B told you R&J was a great play with correct information on play history etc, then it would be safe to say that person B is 'correct'. However, person A is still allowed to have his/her oppinion and beliefs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course she is. In a free country, nobody will arrest A or beat her till she recants. But in an enlightened country, nobody will take her serious either.
1.)People have a right to believe in whatever they wish so long as it dosen't harm others 2.)Beliefs aren't inherently bad, we can blame society for that. 3.)To each his own. Just because Jack thinks he is/or was a wolf dosen't give you the right to peddle your ideals of a magical man in the sky.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain: Why Wolves.
Honestly, this is just baffling. Est. 30 million species of life on earth...
... and every single person here that believes in this reincarnation is a wolf. What'd be especially entertaining is to get a compilation of everyone who believes that, and find out that it probably more then quintuples the population of the last 5 generations of wolves. Uh oh! Now what!
Do I have to put into words how rediculously <b>absurd</b> that sounds?
You ask me, in all honesty, you saw a movie with wolves or something and began thinking about how cool they are to the point where you believe it. Sorry, I outgrew pretending to be Superman and a Power Ranger about 16 years ago.
(What I find most especially funny is I'm probably more 'wolf' then any of you: My entire family has incredibly acute noses to the point where I can smell out where my cats have been and I'm able to consume (and enjoy, I'm proud to say) great quantities of raw meat)
Beast, this 'primal urge' or whatever you're talking about... yeah, it makes a lot more sense to you and everyone else if you trust in evolution...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm still waiting for someone to explain: Why Wolves.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not that surprising. The wolf has many mythological connotations (Fenris Wolf, Werewolf etc.) and is a recurring dream symbol.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
Well, What can I really say? I'm a snail myself, I just got in the wrong body. Nah actually I'm more like 25% cascalot whale and 75% snail. You see I had a dream once being a snail. then I met a cascalot whale and felt really familiar with it, like it was a part of me. Therefore it should be 100% obvious that I was 25% cascalot whale and 75% snail in my past life.
Nah, I didnt mock you, I was trying to show you how irrational it really is.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
edited November 2003
Looking the wolfsoul site I'd say he has an unhealthy obsession with it. Actually i'd say he is suffering from a mental disorder. I've seen two good discovery programs about some issues similiar, Body-dismorphia and transsexuality, which suffers completely the same feeling, it's just that they feel they are the opposite sex or in their image they are an arm short or a leg.
Just to underline there's something wrong: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Everything I ever read anymore justifies my desire to see millions of human slaughtered.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Nov 30 2003, 06:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Nov 30 2003, 06:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm still waiting for someone to explain: Why Wolves.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not that surprising. The wolf has many mythological connotations (Fenris Wolf, Werewolf etc.) and is a recurring dream symbol. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Isn't that insulting to the real followers of those mythologies? That's like me declaring myself the Messiah.
To me, this seems a lot more like a phycological problem than a new-found spirit.
You cannot possibly have such a big change without any big physical or emotional trauma.
I'm sorry, I just don't buy that one day you're 'Superskulk, rawr, I like playing NS" and the next day you're "I found out that I was a wolf in the past life. Ok, superskulk phase is over and I'm now a wolf !".
I seriously suggest you see a doctor or a phycologist.
<!--QuoteBegin--MrMojo+Nov 30 2003, 10:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Nov 30 2003, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To me, this seems a lot more like a phycological problem than a new-found spirit.
You cannot possibly have such a big change without any big physical or emotional trauma.
I'm sorry, I just don't buy that one day you're 'Superskulk, rawr, I like playing NS" and the next day you're "I found out that I was a wolf in the past life. Ok, superskulk phase is over and I'm now a wolf !".
I seriously suggest you see a doctor or a phycologist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is a big difference here. Superskulk was a joke, pretend, "role playing" and not serious. This Wolf thing is VERY serious. I don't give a flying monkey about how "irrational" my beliefs are; they are no more irrational than Hinduism or the belief Jesus rose from the dead, are they?
Science is a religion too; care to explain partical/wave duality? ^^ Go on, try to explain WHY <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> It will either get needlessly complicated or you won't be able to explain it.
I'll say this again. It is more than just dreams. Unless you have experienced what I talk of yourself you have no substance for your arguments.
And considering the "psychological effects" this has had, well, its all positive. I'm FAR more relaxed, I actually have philosphical views now as opposed to nothing.
As for Ebon, If you try to judge him as a human using purely human scienfitic grounds to judge him, you will think hes insane and needs to be locked away.......
...... just like what they used to think about the dyslexic (sp?).....
If you actually read what he had written for what it is, you will see he has far more insight than you could imagine. I've spoken to him personaly and he is far from insane; he is more sane than me (which may not say much, weeeeee!!! (sorry, obligitory joke <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->))
So, quit the "OMG YOU HAVE SPIRITUAL BELIEFS! YOU ARE A NUBCAEK BECAUSE THEY ARE IRRATIONAL!!!" stuff, it's getting really old, really fast, k?
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
edited November 2003
Ask why do a bunch of people who's in the large minority start believing they were a wolf suddenly, he babbles about brainwashing but he fail to realize he has brainwashed himself. I've added the possiblity that you might be ill in your brain countless of times now, but you do not seem to consider. Yeah it's more than dreams, it's delusional feelings.
I'd have better point than this running around saying omg, U noobcaek to defy all rational, logical and scientific points
<span style='color:orange'>Even if you're not in agreement with fellow forumgoers' spiritual decisions or beliefs, try to give it more respect than calling it "delusional" or "unhealthy obsessions" offhand.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--Sid+Nov 30 2003, 05:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sid @ Nov 30 2003, 05:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Nov 30 2003, 04:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 30 2003, 04:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm still waiting for someone to explain: Why Wolves. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why not? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why not power rangers? If you're going to pretend to be something just becase you like it, why attach that 'i was one in my past life' sham to it?
<!--QuoteBegin--Beast+Nov 30 2003, 05:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Beast @ Nov 30 2003, 05:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Science is a religion too; care to explain partical/wave duality? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The difference is that I won't pretend to try to explain it, and it's not my job to explain it, nor is it my job to research it.
It is YOUR job to know everything about YOUR spirituality YOU CHOSE, so don't throw this bassackwards logic in our faces.
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Nov 29 2003, 05:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Nov 29 2003, 05:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think we've summed it up.
1.)People have a right to believe in whatever they wish so long as it dosen't harm others 2.)Beliefs aren't inherently bad, we can blame society for that. 3.)To each his own. Just because Jack thinks he is/or was a wolf dosen't give you the right to peddle your ideals of a magical man in the sky.
Yay it ended peacefully! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ... thus ending the point of this thread.
Comments
I agree. Science is inapt tool when dealing with immaterial things which cannot be measured.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Try to understand this before going on a "faith is irrational" argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would never go on such an argument. My argument is that an opinion/faith-into-a-truth-claim which is logically justifiable is inherently more valuable than an opinion based on inexplicable feelings.
For example, if A told me that "Romeo & Juliet" is a bad play without being able to specify why she holds this opinion, and B told me that "Romeo & Juliet" is a good play and proceeds to present arguments grounded in art history and sound interpretive methodology, then it is evident that B's opinion deserves more credence than A's.
This I'd personally like to explain in a bit more detail.
Are you happy with being human? Would you still be happy if you suddenly knew of your past life, that it wasn't human and that it felt far more "natural"? Maybe you were "not meant to be human"?
There are a lot of "freaky things" here, and a lot of it boils down to preference - would you rather help others to survive directly or write a new program in c++ that earns you lots of money? Would you rather spend 2 hours hunting this deer so that you and your pack may live, or spend 2 hours in the supermarket working out what you -might- want? Most would go for the human approach, I would rather the Lupine, as strange as that may sound. I would rather work for my food and help others than the human alternative (hardly working at all, and helping just yourself..<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
As for expanding on the "psychologcal health" thing. Thanks to my experiences I understand a lot of things that some might say humans will never learn in a lifetime (this is all relative so meh..). I no longer fear death, only suffering. I better understand myself now, and I am far more relaxed. I also know what love is for myself, but that's something I will end up explaining later if things go well. (it's very difficult to explain at current without getting all kinds of misunderstandings. Let's put it this way, don't think about it too much, or you will get the wrong idea completely and it's likely your perverted and twisted little minds may twist it all out of proportion <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (not mentioning any names *cough*<span style='font-size:4pt;line-height:100%'>Supernorn2000</span>*cough*) )
Also; if anyone does not quite understand my own spiritual standpoint here, PM me and I will be able to explain in better detail. I will only tell [in detail] of my views/faith/belief to those who make the effort to ask, as trying to be open on it...just ends with people calling me a nub/idiot/moron/fanatic.
For example, if A told me that "Romeo & Juliet" is a bad play without being able to specify why she holds this opinion, and B told me that "Romeo & Juliet" is a good play and proceeds to present arguments grounded in art history and sound interpretive methodology, then it is evident that B's opinion deserves more credence than A's. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, I'm curious as to why exactly you say one person's 'oppinion' is better than the other's. They(both oppinions) are both qualatative, not quantatative, in that they cannot just be decided by some number of facts. An oppinion is just that, someone's idea on something.
On another note, you stated that an opinion based in scientificly proven fact is more valuable than one based in unexplainable feelings, if science cant prove why one is having said feelings(or in Beast's case dreams/visions etc) Then the science point is pretty much negated.
For example: If person A told you Romeo&Juliet was awful, then procceeded to give you incorrect information, and person B told you R&J was a great play with correct information on play history etc, then it would be safe to say that person B is 'correct'. However, person A is still allowed to have his/her oppinion and beliefs.
If you think that a person should not be allowed to believe what they want based on whatever they choose, no matter how illogical, then there is something quite wrong with you. People everywhere are entitled to freedom of thought.
On that note, I agree with Beast on his views of reincarnation etc. Including the fact about a previous life as a wolf(Feel free to PM me on this subject).
Well...if I was meant to be anything, I figure I'm meant to be who I am. (But that's beside the point.) I'm just not sure why memory of a past self, although pretty cool, would affect who you are now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are a lot of "freaky things" here, and a lot of it boils down to preference - would you rather help others to survive directly or write a new program in c++ that earns you lots of money? Would you rather spend 2 hours hunting this deer so that you and your pack may live, or spend 2 hours in the supermarket working out what you -might- want? Most would go for the human approach, I would rather the Lupine, as strange as that may sound. I would rather work for my food and help others than the human alternative (hardly working at all, and helping just yourself..:p)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well...while you might help those around you, you'll only be helping out those in your "pack" (presumably). That's pretty much what most people do already. I'm not sure that the "lupine" approach is all that different to a human one, really. And just because you get your food by hunting doesn't mean you "hardly work at all". I don't know who you're basing this on, but they sound like they have it sweet. :P
You seem pretty level-headed about it, so, fair enough. I get that your experiences are different from mine, and vice versa, so maybe it's not possible to reach an understand (especailly since we're communicating via text). Anyway, anything that makes you want to be more charitable can't be all that bad, as long as you watch out for the pit-falls. For example, how the others on that linked forum acted like that - people who think they're better than people, because they're "enlightened".
EDIT: took out a "vice versa". One's enough. :/
First off, just to get it out of the way, I'm agnostic leaning strongly towards atheism. Meaning that I believe that when you die you're just dead, the end, but I can't prove it.
I think that the freedom to believe what you want is a sacred right that everyone has and cannot be infringed upon. So if someone wants to believe they have a buddy named jesus or that they used to be a mountain goat then that's fine by me.
My problem comes around when people TALK to each other about it. I believe that the population of the world is mostly dumb and gullible. So whatever any 1 individual gets presented with can become fact to that person in less than the blink of an eye.
So this irks me when people start spreading beliefs that are retarded (keep in mind that this statement is ENTIRELY opinionated). This includes but is not limited to: Greek gods, the tooth fairy, christianity, judaism, spiritual reincarnation, and the idea that "buying a HDTV on a credit card that you don't have to make payments on for 2 years but has really high interest" is a good thing.
For the same reason that crappy products still show up every night on infomercials, people are just too apt to give into blind faith than deal with the hard truth that they can't buy a house with no down payment.
So yes, people have a right to believe anything they want and I won't hate them for that. But the moment they start talking, I have a strong desire to make them exercise their right to SUYF.
But since we live in a world with the internet, people tend to talk at great lengths about stuff like their new imaginary friend that gave them inner peace and it just pisses me off to no end. Because when people talk about it, it becomes an exponentially increasing problem. And in the extreme case you have a continent full of people believing that french is the language of the gods and they'll nuke anyone that says otherwise and it creates a generally bad situation.
And just because I know *someone* is gonna post saying how their beliefs helped them find peace and that I can't deal with that. You should know that I am at peace and do not fear my own death. Only the suffering of dying and missing out on the cool stuff that life has to offer, like playstation 3 and motorcycles that go 210 mph.
In closing, I know this doesn't solve anything, but I still think it's a good thing for people to consider when discussing spirituality/religion, because I know I'm not alone in my beliefs.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo-->
What I see as "Yellow", may not be the same "Yellow" you see.
Understand?
Because one opinion is informed and the other isn't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They(both oppinions) are both qualatative, not quantatative, in that they cannot just be decided by some number of facts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course we're not dealing with mathematical equations, so <i>final</i> judgement is not possible. In our example we've only seen that B deserves more credence than A. It is always possible that C shows up to pwnz0r B. But just because the judgement isn't final doesn't mean that it's invalid.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On another note, you stated that an opinion based in scientificly proven fact is more valuable than one based in unexplainable feelings, if science cant prove why one is having said feelings(or in Beast's case dreams/visions etc) Then the science point is pretty much negated.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please. This is now the second time that someone brings up science when I was talking about reason. I know too much about science to refer to a concept as oxymoronic as "scientifically proven fact".
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For example: If person A told you Romeo&Juliet was awful, then procceeded to give you incorrect information, and person B told you R&J was a great play with correct information on play history etc, then it would be safe to say that person B is 'correct'. However, person A is still allowed to have his/her oppinion and beliefs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course she is. In a free country, nobody will arrest A or beat her till she recants. But in an enlightened country, nobody will take her serious either.
HOWEVER I <i>do</i> believe that people can believe whatever they want to believe as long as it doesn't adversely affect me or anyone I care about.
I find an attitude of amiable tolerance goes a long way.
--Scythe--
1.)People have a right to believe in whatever they wish so long as it dosen't harm others
2.)Beliefs aren't inherently bad, we can blame society for that.
3.)To each his own. Just because Jack thinks he is/or was a wolf dosen't give you the right to peddle your ideals of a magical man in the sky.
Yay it ended peacefully!
Honestly, this is just baffling. Est. 30 million species of life on earth...
... and every single person here that believes in this reincarnation is a wolf. What'd be especially entertaining is to get a compilation of everyone who believes that, and find out that it probably more then quintuples the population of the last 5 generations of wolves. Uh oh! Now what!
Do I have to put into words how rediculously <b>absurd</b> that sounds?
You ask me, in all honesty, you saw a movie with wolves or something and began thinking about how cool they are to the point where you believe it. Sorry, I outgrew pretending to be Superman and a Power Ranger about 16 years ago.
(What I find most especially funny is I'm probably more 'wolf' then any of you: My entire family has incredibly acute noses to the point where I can smell out where my cats have been and I'm able to consume (and enjoy, I'm proud to say) great quantities of raw meat)
Beast, this 'primal urge' or whatever you're talking about... yeah, it makes a lot more sense to you and everyone else if you trust in evolution...
It's not that surprising. The wolf has many mythological connotations (Fenris Wolf, Werewolf etc.) and is a recurring dream symbol.
You see I had a dream once being a snail. then I met a cascalot whale and felt really familiar with it, like it was a part of me. Therefore it should be 100% obvious that I was 25% cascalot whale and 75% snail in my past life.
Nah, I didnt mock you, I was trying to show you how irrational it really is.
Just to underline there's something wrong:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Everything I ever read anymore justifies my desire to see millions of human slaughtered.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not that surprising. The wolf has many mythological connotations (Fenris Wolf, Werewolf etc.) and is a recurring dream symbol. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't that insulting to the real followers of those mythologies? That's like me declaring myself the Messiah.
You cannot possibly have such a big change without any big physical or emotional trauma.
I'm sorry, I just don't buy that one day you're 'Superskulk, rawr, I like playing NS" and the next day you're "I found out that I was a wolf in the past life. Ok, superskulk phase is over and I'm now a wolf !".
I seriously suggest you see a doctor or a phycologist.
You cannot possibly have such a big change without any big physical or emotional trauma.
I'm sorry, I just don't buy that one day you're 'Superskulk, rawr, I like playing NS" and the next day you're "I found out that I was a wolf in the past life. Ok, superskulk phase is over and I'm now a wolf !".
I seriously suggest you see a doctor or a phycologist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a big difference here. Superskulk was a joke, pretend, "role playing" and not serious. This Wolf thing is VERY serious. I don't give a flying monkey about how "irrational" my beliefs are; they are no more irrational than Hinduism or the belief Jesus rose from the dead, are they?
Science is a religion too; care to explain partical/wave duality? ^^ Go on, try to explain WHY <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> It will either get needlessly complicated or you won't be able to explain it.
I'll say this again. It is more than just dreams. Unless you have experienced what I talk of yourself you have no substance for your arguments.
And considering the "psychological effects" this has had, well, its all positive. I'm FAR more relaxed, I actually have philosphical views now as opposed to nothing.
As for Ebon, If you try to judge him as a human using purely human scienfitic grounds to judge him, you will think hes insane and needs to be locked away.......
...... just like what they used to think about the dyslexic (sp?).....
If you actually read what he had written for what it is, you will see he has far more insight than you could imagine. I've spoken to him personaly and he is far from insane; he is more sane than me (which may not say much, weeeeee!!! (sorry, obligitory joke <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->))
So, quit the "OMG YOU HAVE SPIRITUAL BELIEFS! YOU ARE A NUBCAEK BECAUSE THEY ARE IRRATIONAL!!!" stuff, it's getting really old, really fast, k?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not?
I've added the possiblity that you might be ill in your brain countless of times now, but you do not seem to consider.
Yeah it's more than dreams, it's delusional feelings.
I'd have better point than this running around saying omg, U noobcaek to defy all rational, logical and scientific points
<span style='color:orange'>Even if you're not in agreement with fellow forumgoers' spiritual decisions or beliefs, try to give it more respect than calling it "delusional" or "unhealthy obsessions" offhand.</span>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
he said it all.
just live and let live....
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not power rangers? If you're going to pretend to be something just becase you like it, why attach that 'i was one in my past life' sham to it?
The difference is that I won't pretend to try to explain it, and it's not my job to explain it, nor is it my job to research it.
It is YOUR job to know everything about YOUR spirituality YOU CHOSE, so don't throw this bassackwards logic in our faces.
1.)People have a right to believe in whatever they wish so long as it dosen't harm others
2.)Beliefs aren't inherently bad, we can blame society for that.
3.)To each his own. Just because Jack thinks he is/or was a wolf dosen't give you the right to peddle your ideals of a magical man in the sky.
Yay it ended peacefully! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
... thus ending the point of this thread.