By the way lets examine how much 3 HA cost. Armory, 25, advance, 30. Arms lab 25. Prototype 40, HA tech 35 (right?). 3 HA 45. 3 guns (min 30), 3 welders 15. Add it up we get 245 total cost for 3 HAs with no upgrades at all (and no ip, for that matter.)
<!--QuoteBegin--(e)kent+Nov 27 2003, 03:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ((e)kent @ Nov 27 2003, 03:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> By the way lets examine how much 3 HA cost. Armory, 25, advance, 30. Arms lab 25. Prototype 40, HA tech 35 (right?). 3 HA 45. 3 guns (min 30), 3 welders 15. Add it up we get 245 total cost for 3 HAs with no upgrades at all (and no ip, for that matter.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> For the cost of the research, when it finally gets done, marines are able to produce one suit of heavy armor for 15 resources. I think that more than makes up for the high tech costs and time. Then it only costs between 30 - 40 res to suit up one marine with a powerful gun in heavy armor and a welder.
<b>Edit:</b> Using your method of comparison, a useful onos takes 100 (base cost) + 4 (upgrades) + 40 (2nd hive cost) + 60 (2 sets of 3 upgrade chambers) = 204 resources.
IMO, the main problem is, the Lerk, Fade and Onos ressource costs and gestation times are designed to time the first apearence of the creature. So when evolving to onos you always have to pay sort of research cost.
A solution for this may be to have lowered gestation costs and times after the first Lerk/Fade/Onos finished evolving. Explanation for this behavior cold be: The Kharaa bacteria has first form the genetic code for a new creature. After the first gestation this code is available to all the other aliens, allowing them gestate for less ressources and faster.
With cowardly HA that don't realize that I as an onos is rather vulnerable when digesting someone(as I can't swallow new HA while I'm digesting the first), I+an umbraing lerk(and a gorge but he was mainly useless) managed to take out about 8 HA with various weapons. Yes, there was even one with a grenade launcher, but he got swallowed first <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Of course, this was mainly thanks to the coward part, and the map structure(camping around a corner), yet still.
1 good onos is worth 3 good ha hmg marines,2 with all upgrades. Only time this differs is when the marine/s are defending their base (sitting on a turret),or a other high ground where stomp is useless.
I had lots o times where i ripped 10+ has without dying. And remember ,a onos is *ONE* player who can stall the whole freakin marine team,while the rest of the aliens can drink a coffee/smoke/munch a rt.
<!--QuoteBegin--Max der Hase+Nov 28 2003, 03:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Max der Hase @ Nov 28 2003, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1 good onos is worth 3 good ha hmg marines,2 with all upgrades. Only time this differs is when the marine/s are defending their base (sitting on a turret),or a other high ground where stomp is useless.
I had lots o times where i ripped 10+ has without dying. And remember ,a onos is *ONE* player who can stall the whole freakin marine team,while the rest of the aliens can drink a coffee/smoke/munch a rt. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In a narrow hall, with all marines in a line, with adren stomp, then maybe what you say is true. When that situation isn't in play, upgraded <b>vanilla</b> marines with shotty/hmg > onos with no backup
<!--QuoteBegin--Yassum+Nov 23 2003, 11:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yassum @ Nov 23 2003, 11:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't you people find that onos isn't worth the 100 res u put into them ? I mean when u look at what marines could get for 100 res, 3 fully equiped ha ... the only use I find to an onos is the stomp ability, wich is the only thing that can stop an ha train ( provided u got teammate ). I feel it should be a real juggernaut, I mean at first marines were afraid of it, now it is more of a hunt the onos, they all swarm you, and u die, cause u're so big and slow and clumsy. What are u're feelings about it ? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Onos with stomp is a GREAT asset for any team. If the player is competent they can take an entire squad of ha's with stomp.
without stomp: Risky, weak, will proabably die vs ha's without backup.
an onos with a support gorge, constantly healing it, and a wee pack o' skulks is devestating.. firstly, most marines would usually shoot the most overall threatning target, the onos (this goes for fades as well) so it draws away the fire from the skulks wich wont endure much, but can pack a punch... secondly the onos is quite devestating alone, and with celerity and regen is quite hard to put down.. an onos early in the game is great for leveling marine siegeatempts on hive or the hive in progress... used correctly, the onos is well worth it's cost
1)stomp 2)devour 3)run 4)heal/digest 5)repeat until marines are all dead
With celerity you should survive and now there is one less marine. You can then hide behind a corner and stomp and gore and run while you are digesting.
The current onos, much like the fade, is really really evil when you get good at using it, but it plain sucks when you are just starting out.
Devour reaches way too far(seems like a good 128 units or more from the onos mouth too me <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ), allowing you to easily pluck JPs out of the air when they try to get away even in quite tall rooms (They get **** when you do that, devour is allready annoying, eating someone from 3 meters away makes it much more so). You just need to aim with the center of the screen, jump up and snag them. This makes devour a very skillbased weapon, and I would like to see the manual say that it is an aimed attack, with an unnaturally long reach and I would like it if it had crosshairs by default.
Stomp has a tall vertical reach, it gets you when even though you jump or even though you stand on a normal sized fence(~32 units), this looks just awkvard.
I wish oni would have more health, more armor, a lot shorter devour reach and a circular stomp that only stunned you on the ground and stunned you instantly(no silly 5 m/s wave effect), the time you freeze being corelated to the distance from the onos so that being closer is worse. Right now stomp reaches some 20 meters down the hallway and is a directed attack. I wish charge would be useful, possibly by making it switch off when you change weapons so you can use it as a means of escape and quick attack.
This should make the onos more tank like, which I would prefer to the current onos and which would probably make it something which doesn't require as much experience to be effective. Learning unintuitive oddites like devour reach, bunny hopping, blink bhoping, the insane range of healspray and so on by trial and error should not be nessecary, it should be stated clearly in the manual if it is going to be used at all(heck, I'd gladly do the bunnyhopping section of the manual if I knew it would be put in and if I had the time.)
Comments
For the cost of the research, when it finally gets done, marines are able to produce one suit of heavy armor for 15 resources. I think that more than makes up for the high tech costs and time. Then it only costs between 30 - 40 res to suit up one marine with a powerful gun in heavy armor and a welder.
<b>Edit:</b> Using your method of comparison, a useful onos takes 100 (base cost) + 4 (upgrades) + 40 (2nd hive cost) + 60 (2 sets of 3 upgrade chambers) = 204 resources.
A solution for this may be to have lowered gestation costs and times after the first Lerk/Fade/Onos finished evolving.
Explanation for this behavior cold be:
The Kharaa bacteria has first form the genetic code for a new creature. After the first gestation this code is available to all the other aliens, allowing them gestate for less ressources and faster.
With cowardly HA that don't realize that I as an onos is rather vulnerable when digesting someone(as I can't swallow new HA while I'm digesting the first), I+an umbraing lerk(and a gorge but he was mainly useless) managed to take out about 8 HA with various weapons. Yes, there was even one with a grenade launcher, but he got swallowed first <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Of course, this was mainly thanks to the coward part, and the map structure(camping around a corner), yet still.
Only time this differs is when the marine/s are defending their base (sitting on a turret),or a other high ground where stomp is useless.
I had lots o times where i ripped 10+ has without dying.
And remember ,a onos is *ONE* player who can stall the whole freakin marine team,while the rest of the aliens can drink a coffee/smoke/munch a rt.
Only time this differs is when the marine/s are defending their base (sitting on a turret),or a other high ground where stomp is useless.
I had lots o times where i ripped 10+ has without dying.
And remember ,a onos is *ONE* player who can stall the whole freakin marine team,while the rest of the aliens can drink a coffee/smoke/munch a rt. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a narrow hall, with all marines in a line, with adren stomp, then maybe what you say is true. When that situation isn't in play, upgraded <b>vanilla</b> marines with shotty/hmg > onos with no backup
I mean when u look at what marines could get for 100 res, 3 fully equiped ha ...
the only use I find to an onos is the stomp ability, wich is the only thing that can stop an ha train ( provided u got teammate ).
I feel it should be a real juggernaut, I mean at first marines were afraid of it, now it is more of a hunt the onos, they all swarm you, and u die, cause u're so big and slow and clumsy.
What are u're feelings about it ? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos with stomp is a GREAT asset for any team. If the player is competent they can take an entire squad of ha's with stomp.
without stomp: Risky, weak, will proabably die vs ha's without backup.
2)devour
3)run
4)heal/digest
5)repeat until marines are all dead
With celerity you should survive and now there is one less marine. You can then hide behind a corner and stomp and gore and run while you are digesting.
Devour reaches way too far(seems like a good 128 units or more from the onos mouth too me <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ), allowing you to easily pluck JPs out of the air when they try to get away even in quite tall rooms (They get **** when you do that, devour is allready annoying, eating someone from 3 meters away makes it much more so). You just need to aim with the center of the screen, jump up and snag them. This makes devour a very skillbased weapon, and I would like to see the manual say that it is an aimed attack, with an unnaturally long reach and I would like it if it had crosshairs by default.
Stomp has a tall vertical reach, it gets you when even though you jump or even though you stand on a normal sized fence(~32 units), this looks just awkvard.
I wish oni would have more health, more armor, a lot shorter devour reach and a circular stomp that only stunned you on the ground and stunned you instantly(no silly 5 m/s wave effect), the time you freeze being corelated to the distance from the onos so that being closer is worse. Right now stomp reaches some 20 meters down the hallway and is a directed attack. I wish charge would be useful, possibly by making it switch off when you change weapons so you can use it as a means of escape and quick attack.
This should make the onos more tank like, which I would prefer to the current onos and which would probably make it something which doesn't require as much experience to be effective. Learning unintuitive oddites like devour reach, bunny hopping, blink bhoping, the insane range of healspray and so on by trial and error should not be nessecary, it should be stated clearly in the manual if it is going to be used at all(heck, I'd gladly do the bunnyhopping section of the manual if I knew it would be put in and if I had the time.)