They are just wolves...honestly, what have they done for us? I know we shouldn't kill off somthing for really no reason, but it's not like it's the end of the world....
save the whales: nuke the whales <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> , don't care
Vegetarian: am not, and I will respond on this, because I see nothing wrong for being a vegetarian for "HEALTH" reasons, but if you do it because you don't want to hurt the poor animals, then you sir/madam need to spend 20 mins in a pen of about 20-30 pigs and see if you don't want to see the lot of them slaughtered. I HATE PETA!
Pollution levels: Don't care, this world is dead anyway, its just in the stages of rotting away.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A few small questions, reply with your view, but give no reasons. this is to avoid flame wars.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm, Mr/Mrs Burr, sir/madam, I think you did not quite read the instructions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No person may respond to another person's response either.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Burr+Nov 24 2003, 09:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Burr @ Nov 24 2003, 09:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> mmm....lack of sleep does wonderful things to the mind... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's incredible what lack of sleep does. I have had full blow hallucenations from lack of sleep which was really scary.
<!--QuoteBegin--DuBERS+Nov 24 2003, 05:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuBERS @ Nov 24 2003, 05:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Burr+Nov 24 2003, 09:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Burr @ Nov 24 2003, 09:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> mmm....lack of sleep does wonderful things to the mind... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's incredible what lack of sleep does. I have had full blow hallucenations from lack of sleep which was really scary. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Try 4 days lack of sleep PLUS a bloodstream full of morphine.....
I swore, the first night I did sleep, the dream was so real I really did thought I died.
<!--QuoteBegin--Burr+Nov 24 2003, 10:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Burr @ Nov 24 2003, 10:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--DuBERS+Nov 24 2003, 05:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuBERS @ Nov 24 2003, 05:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Burr+Nov 24 2003, 09:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Burr @ Nov 24 2003, 09:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> mmm....lack of sleep does wonderful things to the mind... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's incredible what lack of sleep does. I have had full blow hallucenations from lack of sleep which was really scary. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Try 4 days lack of sleep PLUS a bloodstream full of morphine.....
I swore, the first night I did sleep, the dream was so real I really did thought I died.
(oh, and I was in the hospital) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why were you in hospital? At least they gave you morphine coz it pwns any pain and makes you feel like a billion bucks although it made me puke all the time <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Senior yr of High School, Snow day, Decide to go with friends and get pulled behind a fourwheeler on an innertube, mom tells me be careful, but like Im really going to get hurt. Im on the innertube on the snow in an open field, Im hanging on and the tube whips around and hits THE ONLY THING IN THE FIELD which was a large mound of frozen dirt....
End up in the ER for about 6 hrs before they decide to put me in the ICU (intensive care), find out that I have a fractured spleen that causes massive internal bleeding, a collapsed lung, and a dead kidney. I was in the ICU for 5 days, I didn't sleep for four, I was on a constant supply of morphine, which really didn't make the pain go away, it just numbed it. Its nice to know that a living person needs to have a Blood/Oxygen level of 75 to survive and mine was down to about 74.....
Well now! Lookie here, a discussion on the furry little creatures we call wolves.
Eh, it seems that both sides have legitimate reasons for this and that. BigDXLT has probably been the only one to post so far, however, with details and arguments to support his purpose.
Yep, it's true. Us humans may have overpopulated the wolves. Therefore we must make amends and kill the wolves. Why can't we move the wolves instead? Because...
It's not about the wolves. We like to be selfish. It's all about us.
Us humans don't care about those trees. Chop em down. Litter? Nobody pays much attention to that. Wolves? What are those?
As we consider ourselves the supreme beings of Earth, we will use the Earth to our own purpose. We don't like you, you are gone. But if you're a human, that's different, because humans are the supreme beings.
It's sad, really. Every being is a part of this world. Every species. But we're the human race. You can't stop it. The majority of us....
<!--QuoteBegin--Burr+Nov 24 2003, 10:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Burr @ Nov 24 2003, 10:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Shortend version of the story:
Senior yr of High School, Snow day, Decide to go with friends and get pulled behind a fourwheeler on an innertube, mom tells me be careful, but like Im really going to get hurt. Im on the innertube on the snow in an open field, Im hanging on and the tube whips around and hits THE ONLY THING IN THE FIELD which was a large mound of frozen dirt....
End up in the ER for about 6 hrs before they decide to put me in the ICU (intensive care), find out that I have a fractured spleen that causes massive internal bleeding, a collapsed lung, and a dead kidney. I was in the ICU for 5 days, I didn't sleep for four, I was on a constant supply of morphine, which really didn't make the pain go away, it just numbed it. Its nice to know that a living person needs to have a Blood/Oxygen level of 75 to survive and mine was down to about 74.....
Lets just say, listen to your mother. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Dude you must have been going FAST! Hope you dont suffer too much <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Burr+Nov 24 2003, 05:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Burr @ Nov 24 2003, 05:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Shortend version of the story:
Senior yr of High School, Snow day, Decide to go with friends and get pulled behind a fourwheeler on an innertube, mom tells me be careful, but like Im really going to get hurt. Im on the innertube on the snow in an open field, Im hanging on and the tube whips around and hits THE ONLY THING IN THE FIELD which was a large mound of frozen dirt....
End up in the ER for about 6 hrs before they decide to put me in the ICU (intensive care), find out that I have a fractured spleen that causes massive internal bleeding, a collapsed lung, and a dead kidney. I was in the ICU for 5 days, I didn't sleep for four, I was on a constant supply of morphine, which really didn't make the pain go away, it just numbed it. Its nice to know that a living person needs to have a Blood/Oxygen level of 75 to survive and mine was down to about 74.....
Lets just say, listen to your mother. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Owww! That's freaky. What'd your mom say? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--gekigarion+Nov 24 2003, 10:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (gekigarion @ Nov 24 2003, 10:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Burr+Nov 24 2003, 05:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Burr @ Nov 24 2003, 05:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Shortend version of the story:
Senior yr of High School, Snow day, Decide to go with friends and get pulled behind a fourwheeler on an innertube, mom tells me be careful, but like Im really going to get hurt. Im on the innertube on the snow in an open field, Im hanging on and the tube whips around and hits THE ONLY THING IN THE FIELD which was a large mound of frozen dirt....
End up in the ER for about 6 hrs before they decide to put me in the ICU (intensive care), find out that I have a fractured spleen that causes massive internal bleeding, a collapsed lung, and a dead kidney. I was in the ICU for 5 days, I didn't sleep for four, I was on a constant supply of morphine, which really didn't make the pain go away, it just numbed it. Its nice to know that a living person needs to have a Blood/Oxygen level of 75 to survive and mine was down to about 74.....
Lets just say, listen to your mother. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Owww! That's freaky. What'd your mom say? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> "OWNED ROFL J00 H4X?D!!!!!!111" probably.
Not much, since she was in grief from the thought of me dying....
and unfortunatley, I did suffer, I was awake through all the pain, and In the bed they rolled me over, awake, to cut a hole in me to drain the blood....I lost 20 lbs to.
<!--QuoteBegin--Burr+Nov 24 2003, 10:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Burr @ Nov 24 2003, 10:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not much, since she was in grief from the thought of me dying....
and unfortunatley, I did suffer, I was awake through all the pain, and In the bed they rolled me over, awake, to cut a hole in me to drain the blood....I lost 20 lbs to. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Man I can kindof understand what you went thru as I have been I hospital a couple of times myself with some serious injuries. Hopefully it doesn't cause you grief in later life.
Not much, I was in the hospital recently for a kidney stone to (Talk about pain!), and when you only have kidney, they take it a little more seroius than normal people.
At least with the kidney stone, I got to enjoy the morphine, it was even in the military strength one shot syriange too. Trust me, nothing is as good as morphine and I have had alot of painkillers in my life (percoet, vicodin, codine..)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->why complain about this one? because wolves are cute? yes they are. but they're not endangered.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we can focus on a single area, and prove we can make a difference, then others will get the idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--DOOManiac+Nov 24 2003, 08:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DOOManiac @ Nov 24 2003, 08:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Beast asked me to reply to this thread, so here is my response:
<b>Pie</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I suppose they could make pie out of them, but I doubt wolf tastes too good (then again, never tried dog nor would I).
I only killed 1 wolf in my life. My brothers ran over to my house, said that some wolf was after them and that he had blown donw their houses.
I was like "WHAT, Who doesd this SOB think he is?"
So than the Wolf MOFO shows up at my house and starts yappin his mouth off, tellin me and my brothers to come out side. So my 1 brother tells him hes not coming out, not even by his goatie or some **** like that.
I told him, if he trys some **** hes going down. So this wolf SOB starts spittin and blowing at my house. WELL, let my tell you, that was a big mistake!
The 3 of us went out side and beat this mother fu**er down.
A lot of people don't seem to be thinking about this much. I'm sure that this isn't just a "lets go out and hunt the wolves and have a grand old time". This is a measured response to something that happened. Anybody found the article that this came from? Just one tiny snipit isn't much to go on. Espcially considering the source, I mean come on, one could hardely call those guys impartial.
Disease crops up in wild animals when they live in close proximity to each other. Very very nasty diseases. Ones which can spread to other animals. I'm sure that this was considered by the people yelling at others for being ignorant, of course.
Over crowding of a territorial animal. Always a great idea. Yep, no danger to anything there. Hell, they'll just learn to live in harmony, right?
I'm sure all of you have a great understanding of what happens when over crowding happens in wolves too. And wolf population dynamics also. I'm sure that you've researched this subject throughly, and aren't just being totally reactionary because the innocent little wolves are being murdered.
Oh, and since somebody brought up the number of carabou and the number of wolves. The wolves are fewer. No, really? They're supposed to be. Predators should always be fewer than their prey. Hell, even if wolves don't eat carabou or moose they should still be fewer. I believe, and my memory is a bit sketchy on this, that for every 100 prey there should be 10 predators, give or take. That's the trend.
Just to give a bit of measure to the above post, I do care about the environment. It's my biggest concern when voting, bar none. I've been camping since I was in 6th grade. I'm an avid backpacker. But one thing I can't stand is people not looking at both sides of the issue. Now, I've read this whole thread. You guys SERIOUSLY are just being totally reactionary. Step back and look at it from the other side. What possible reasons do they have for doing this? Is it just maybe possible that they might have consulted somebody who knows more about wolves that you do?
[I'm sorry about being so inflamitory. I'm tired of getting ignored every single time I make a post. I've read the whole thread twice, so unless I'm totally missing something big...]
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I believe, and my memory is a bit sketchy on this, that for every 100 prey there should be 10 predators, give or take. That's the trend. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, that is correct although it can depend. For example, you might see 5 predators (IE wolves) for every 100 prey. This forms due to things like competition from another predator, such as bears in this case.
As for Majin, I declare you the winner <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ok, I've done a bit more research. The guys a total ****. I still stand by the fact that you guys haven't really considered this much on both sides though. You'd probably respond the same way if it was done in a measured and reasonable way. I do not repeal my statments, I meerly do not support this anymore.
That is to say, I agree with you, but do not agree with your methods. I'm finding I do that more and more with people these days.
(slight ranty post) So, controlling a population by KILLING them is justifyable? Er?? yeah, if you are someone like Hitler maybe. (slight sarcasm here, but still serious)
I can see there -might- be a problem, but the methods they are planning to use is just morally wrong, Wolves feel pain and suffering too, and grieve for their lost family/mates/members - don't call me a liar here because my own cat grieved for one of my other cats when he died - she would sit at the window whining for him. She missed him. If they can feel pain and suffering, why is it justifyable to kill them to "control the population"?
The answer: IT ISN'T <span style='font-size:6pt;line-height:100%'>[edit must work on spellings]</span>
Jus ship all the extra wolves to Scotland, we need some coz we basically shot our last one at the beginning of last century <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes. It is. The comparison to Hitler is moronic. Hitler was killing people not because he thought that the population needed to be controlled, but because it needed to be cleansed. Cleansing /= controlling.
Like I said, when bred in close quarters, animals get diseases quicker, they overrun their boundaries. They exhibit behavior far outside the norm, and things get dangerous. It's morally justifiable, because, while harming/killing the individual, it saves the population. Would you rather 10 wolves are killed "unjustifiably' to save 100, or would you rather all 100 die?
I've seen plenty of people who I think should be subject to "Population Control". I've just yet to see anyone discuss a humane way of doing it. [1/2 joke, 1/2 serious.]
I know that animals feel pain, etc. I recently had a dog pass away. This dog knew when I was feeling bad, and would come comfort me. I also know how deep a connection we had, which I hadn't realized until she was gone.
How else are you going to control a population besides killing them? Ask them nicely to stop breeding?
[Are you willing to foot the bill for shipping the Wolves to a foreign country/state? It's definatly not going to be cheap.]
<!--QuoteBegin--Beast+Nov 24 2003, 10:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Beast @ Nov 24 2003, 10:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (slight ranty post) So, controlling a population by KILLING them is justifyable? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well yeah, that's how normal predator/prey interactions do so. You don't see thousands of pidgeons everywhere because their natural predators control their population. This is why we take the likes of parasitic wasps and introduce them to control caterpillars (or other insects).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Er?? yeah, if you are someone like Hitler maybe. (slight sarcasm here, but still serious)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, Hitler did what he did to humans, and naturally that really annoyed more than a few thousand people.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can see there -might- be a problem, but the methods they are planning to use is just morally wrong,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, they could attack them with sticks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wolves feel pain and suffering too, and grieve for their lost family/mates/members - don't call me a liar here because my own cat grieved for one of my other cats when he died - she would sit at the window whining for him. She missed him.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too an extent this can be seen as grieving but it is impossible to tell in the end exactly what an animal is doing. I have seen domestic animals pine for the other animals that have died, but natural behaviours don't really ascribe evidence to any sort of higher animal intelligence on the matter. Animals aren't really capable of thinking like humans and hence 'grieving'.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If they can feel pain and suffering,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Debatable, and feeling pain is technically just a nervous system responce.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->why is it justifyable to kill them to "control the population"?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Already stated, to change the natural predator/prey equilibriums present for example.
Well actually it pretty much is. For example on a different animal, the etermination campaign going on in the US against fire ants is pretty much essential to work. There are cases where it is desirable to cull or maintain a population of animals at a lower level. Another example is the culling of horses that occured in New Zealand a while back.
Comments
neutral
save the whales:
nuke the whales <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> , don't care
Vegetarian:
am not, and I will respond on this, because I see nothing wrong for being a vegetarian for "HEALTH" reasons, but if you do it because you don't want to hurt the poor animals, then you sir/madam need to spend 20 mins in a pen of about 20-30 pigs and see if you don't want to see the lot of them slaughtered.
I HATE PETA!
Pollution levels:
Don't care, this world is dead anyway, its just in the stages of rotting away.
Abortion:
neutral
Umm, Mr/Mrs Burr, sir/madam, I think you did not quite read the instructions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No person may respond to another person's response either.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, ****!
It's incredible what lack of sleep does. I have had full blow hallucenations from lack of sleep which was really scary.
It's incredible what lack of sleep does. I have had full blow hallucenations from lack of sleep which was really scary. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try 4 days lack of sleep PLUS a bloodstream full of morphine.....
I swore, the first night I did sleep, the dream was so real I really did thought I died.
(oh, and I was in the hospital)
It's incredible what lack of sleep does. I have had full blow hallucenations from lack of sleep which was really scary. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try 4 days lack of sleep PLUS a bloodstream full of morphine.....
I swore, the first night I did sleep, the dream was so real I really did thought I died.
(oh, and I was in the hospital) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why were you in hospital? At least they gave you morphine coz it pwns any pain and makes you feel like a billion bucks although it made me puke all the time <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Senior yr of High School, Snow day, Decide to go with friends and get pulled behind a fourwheeler on an innertube, mom tells me be careful, but like Im really going to get hurt. Im on the innertube on the snow in an open field, Im hanging on and the tube whips around and hits THE ONLY THING IN THE FIELD which was a large mound of frozen dirt....
End up in the ER for about 6 hrs before they decide to put me in the ICU (intensive care), find out that I have a fractured spleen that causes massive internal bleeding, a collapsed lung, and a dead kidney. I was in the ICU for 5 days, I didn't sleep for four, I was on a constant supply of morphine, which really didn't make the pain go away, it just numbed it. Its nice to know that a living person needs to have a Blood/Oxygen level of 75 to survive and mine was down to about 74.....
Lets just say, listen to your mother.
Eh, it seems that both sides have legitimate reasons for this and that. BigDXLT has probably been the only one to post so far, however, with details and arguments to support his purpose.
Yep, it's true. Us humans may have overpopulated the wolves. Therefore we must make amends and kill the wolves. Why can't we move the wolves instead? Because...
It's not about the wolves. We like to be selfish. It's all about us.
Us humans don't care about those trees. Chop em down. Litter? Nobody pays much attention to that. Wolves? What are those?
As we consider ourselves the supreme beings of Earth, we will use the Earth to our own purpose. We don't like you, you are gone. But if you're a human, that's different, because humans are the supreme beings.
It's sad, really. Every being is a part of this world. Every species. But we're the human race. You can't stop it. The majority of us....
Are selfish.
Senior yr of High School, Snow day, Decide to go with friends and get pulled behind a fourwheeler on an innertube, mom tells me be careful, but like Im really going to get hurt. Im on the innertube on the snow in an open field, Im hanging on and the tube whips around and hits THE ONLY THING IN THE FIELD which was a large mound of frozen dirt....
End up in the ER for about 6 hrs before they decide to put me in the ICU (intensive care), find out that I have a fractured spleen that causes massive internal bleeding, a collapsed lung, and a dead kidney. I was in the ICU for 5 days, I didn't sleep for four, I was on a constant supply of morphine, which really didn't make the pain go away, it just numbed it. Its nice to know that a living person needs to have a Blood/Oxygen level of 75 to survive and mine was down to about 74.....
Lets just say, listen to your mother. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude you must have been going FAST! Hope you dont suffer too much <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Senior yr of High School, Snow day, Decide to go with friends and get pulled behind a fourwheeler on an innertube, mom tells me be careful, but like Im really going to get hurt. Im on the innertube on the snow in an open field, Im hanging on and the tube whips around and hits THE ONLY THING IN THE FIELD which was a large mound of frozen dirt....
End up in the ER for about 6 hrs before they decide to put me in the ICU (intensive care), find out that I have a fractured spleen that causes massive internal bleeding, a collapsed lung, and a dead kidney. I was in the ICU for 5 days, I didn't sleep for four, I was on a constant supply of morphine, which really didn't make the pain go away, it just numbed it. Its nice to know that a living person needs to have a Blood/Oxygen level of 75 to survive and mine was down to about 74.....
Lets just say, listen to your mother. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Owww! That's freaky. What'd your mom say? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Senior yr of High School, Snow day, Decide to go with friends and get pulled behind a fourwheeler on an innertube, mom tells me be careful, but like Im really going to get hurt. Im on the innertube on the snow in an open field, Im hanging on and the tube whips around and hits THE ONLY THING IN THE FIELD which was a large mound of frozen dirt....
End up in the ER for about 6 hrs before they decide to put me in the ICU (intensive care), find out that I have a fractured spleen that causes massive internal bleeding, a collapsed lung, and a dead kidney. I was in the ICU for 5 days, I didn't sleep for four, I was on a constant supply of morphine, which really didn't make the pain go away, it just numbed it. Its nice to know that a living person needs to have a Blood/Oxygen level of 75 to survive and mine was down to about 74.....
Lets just say, listen to your mother. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Owww! That's freaky. What'd your mom say? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
"OWNED ROFL J00 H4X?D!!!!!!111" probably.
Or not...
and unfortunatley, I did suffer, I was awake through all the pain, and In the bed they rolled me over, awake, to cut a hole in me to drain the blood....I lost 20 lbs to.
and unfortunatley, I did suffer, I was awake through all the pain, and In the bed they rolled me over, awake, to cut a hole in me to drain the blood....I lost 20 lbs to. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man I can kindof understand what you went thru as I have been I hospital a couple of times myself with some serious injuries. Hopefully it doesn't cause you grief in later life.
At least with the kidney stone, I got to enjoy the morphine, it was even in the military strength one shot syriange too. Trust me, nothing is as good as morphine and I have had alot of painkillers in my life (percoet, vicodin, codine..)
Im a medical nightmare.
If we can focus on a single area, and prove we can make a difference, then others will get the idea.
<b>Pie</b>
nice
<b>Pie</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose they could make pie out of them, but I doubt wolf tastes too good (then again, never tried dog nor would I).
My brothers ran over to my house, said that some wolf was after them and that he had blown donw their houses.
I was like "WHAT, Who doesd this SOB think he is?"
So than the Wolf MOFO shows up at my house and starts yappin his mouth off, tellin me and my brothers to come out side. So my 1 brother tells him hes not coming out, not even by his goatie or some **** like that.
I told him, if he trys some **** hes going down.
So this wolf SOB starts spittin and blowing at my house.
WELL, let my tell you, that was a big mistake!
The 3 of us went out side and beat this mother fu**er down.
Thats the only Wolf I have ever killed!
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Disease crops up in wild animals when they live in close proximity to each other. Very very nasty diseases. Ones which can spread to other animals. I'm sure that this was considered by the people yelling at others for being ignorant, of course.
Over crowding of a territorial animal. Always a great idea. Yep, no danger to anything there. Hell, they'll just learn to live in harmony, right?
I'm sure all of you have a great understanding of what happens when over crowding happens in wolves too. And wolf population dynamics also. I'm sure that you've researched this subject throughly, and aren't just being totally reactionary because the innocent little wolves are being murdered.
Oh, and since somebody brought up the number of carabou and the number of wolves. The wolves are fewer. No, really? They're supposed to be. Predators should always be fewer than their prey. Hell, even if wolves don't eat carabou or moose they should still be fewer. I believe, and my memory is a bit sketchy on this, that for every 100 prey there should be 10 predators, give or take. That's the trend.
Just to give a bit of measure to the above post, I do care about the environment. It's my biggest concern when voting, bar none. I've been camping since I was in 6th grade. I'm an avid backpacker. But one thing I can't stand is people not looking at both sides of the issue. Now, I've read this whole thread. You guys SERIOUSLY are just being totally reactionary. Step back and look at it from the other side. What possible reasons do they have for doing this? Is it just maybe possible that they might have consulted somebody who knows more about wolves that you do?
[I'm sorry about being so inflamitory. I'm tired of getting ignored every single time I make a post. I've read the whole thread twice, so unless I'm totally missing something big...]
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, that is correct although it can depend. For example, you might see 5 predators (IE wolves) for every 100 prey. This forms due to things like competition from another predator, such as bears in this case.
As for Majin, I declare you the winner <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
That is to say, I agree with you, but do not agree with your methods. I'm finding I do that more and more with people these days.
So, controlling a population by KILLING them is justifyable? Er?? yeah, if you are someone like Hitler maybe. (slight sarcasm here, but still serious)
I can see there -might- be a problem, but the methods they are planning to use is just morally wrong, Wolves feel pain and suffering too, and grieve for their lost family/mates/members - don't call me a liar here because my own cat grieved for one of my other cats when he died - she would sit at the window whining for him. She missed him.
If they can feel pain and suffering, why is it justifyable to kill them to "control the population"?
The answer: IT ISN'T
<span style='font-size:6pt;line-height:100%'>[edit must work on spellings]</span>
Like I said, when bred in close quarters, animals get diseases quicker, they overrun their boundaries. They exhibit behavior far outside the norm, and things get dangerous. It's morally justifiable, because, while harming/killing the individual, it saves the population. Would you rather 10 wolves are killed "unjustifiably' to save 100, or would you rather all 100 die?
I've seen plenty of people who I think should be subject to "Population Control". I've just yet to see anyone discuss a humane way of doing it. [1/2 joke, 1/2 serious.]
I know that animals feel pain, etc. I recently had a dog pass away. This dog knew when I was feeling bad, and would come comfort me. I also know how deep a connection we had, which I hadn't realized until she was gone.
How else are you going to control a population besides killing them? Ask them nicely to stop breeding?
[Are you willing to foot the bill for shipping the Wolves to a foreign country/state? It's definatly not going to be cheap.]
So, controlling a population by KILLING them is justifyable? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yeah, that's how normal predator/prey interactions do so. You don't see thousands of pidgeons everywhere because their natural predators control their population. This is why we take the likes of parasitic wasps and introduce them to control caterpillars (or other insects).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Er?? yeah, if you are someone like Hitler maybe. (slight sarcasm here, but still serious)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, Hitler did what he did to humans, and naturally that really annoyed more than a few thousand people.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can see there -might- be a problem, but the methods they are planning to use is just morally wrong,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, they could attack them with sticks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wolves feel pain and suffering too, and grieve for their lost family/mates/members - don't call me a liar here because my own cat grieved for one of my other cats when he died - she would sit at the window whining for him. She missed him.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too an extent this can be seen as grieving but it is impossible to tell in the end exactly what an animal is doing. I have seen domestic animals pine for the other animals that have died, but natural behaviours don't really ascribe evidence to any sort of higher animal intelligence on the matter. Animals aren't really capable of thinking like humans and hence 'grieving'.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If they can feel pain and suffering,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Debatable, and feeling pain is technically just a nervous system responce.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->why is it justifyable to kill them to "control the population"?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Already stated, to change the natural predator/prey equilibriums present for example.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The answer: IT ISN'T<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well actually it pretty much is. For example on a different animal, the etermination campaign going on in the US against fire ants is pretty much essential to work. There are cases where it is desirable to cull or maintain a population of animals at a lower level. Another example is the culling of horses that occured in New Zealand a while back.