I didn't mean to come across <i>that </i>snide. Your earlier posts indicate you have a firm grasp of what is going on in Russia, so I was interested in what you thought the solution was. That's all.
P.S. As a Brit, I'm not that keen on Europe myself. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> I'm not european, damn it! ):
Oops, sorry. So hard to judge things in writing, especially when you're old and slow like me. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Let me think on it a bit more and be back shortly. And doggone it, you are a European like it or not. Such an odd attitude the Brits have about the 'Continentals'. You joined the EU and two World Wars though, so it's your own fault and you're stuck being no better than a frenchman now. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 10 2003, 12:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 10 2003, 12:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not quite sure how analogous Mexico, the Carribean, South America and Canada are to Russia. None are nuclear powers (although for the brief month that Cuba was, we certainly did something about it). None have any meaningful force projection outside their own borders. None have particularly large populations. And in Canadian/Mexican terms, which are the only ones sharing a border, we have generally long peaceful histories (no wars involving Canada for 200 years, and Mexico for 140). So basically, it does not go both ways. Good effort though! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh! I thought we should do something about Russia because they are going to start oppressing their people but obviously we should do something about it because you are afraid they start a new war. Don't you care about anything but yourself! Haf, soon we'll be in the caring thread again <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now quit yer dodgin' and answer the question - what is Europe going to do about it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Umm...nothing? My guess is nothing! At least if it happens before the tighter unification of Europe. However choose what countries you are blaming, or do you blame EU? If you say 'what is Europe going to do', it gives an impression like you expect Iceland to do something about it. Or Portugal. Or Finland <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also, since Russia threatens the whole world, shouldn't the whole world also do something about it? If it threatens Europe alone, then it's Europes own problem, so suyf imperialistic yankee-demon! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now I assume you want Europe as whole to embargo Russia so we would remove the threat to USA? Right-o. Now what do you think would happen? Either a) Russia starts hating Europe and western countries even more. European countries lose money-zor because they stop trading with Russia(lots of oil btw). Russia turns over to Asia and forms bonds with China. Hoozaaa! b) Russian government admits it's wrong and changes it ways. Jeesus arrives riding with a flying unicorn from the cloud palace. MonsE apologizes his behaviour infront of whole NS community. Hell freezes over. c) Russia extremely PO'd. Eastern-block countries can kiss their a** good bye. Europe forms a defensive line against Russia. WW3 and I'll be in the front lines freezing my balls off because I live next to Russia. MonsE barbeques happy in his shiny new backyard and enjoys the fireworks.
I know you'd like that last one but I don't. I like to keep my balls melt. I'd like the second one best, you can start by apologizing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> The first one is the most likely to happen though.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 9 2003, 05:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 9 2003, 05:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And you're right, that's tricky. At least with Hitler, Europe <i>could</i> have done something about it if that had chosen to. It would have been well within the Versailles Treaty rights for certain, at least. Instead, it was appeasement, ignorance, and head in the sand. Rather like nowadays, perhaps? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I would put it to you that "appeasement, ignorance, and head in the sand" pretty much sums up foreign policy of pretty much any country in pretty much any time. The Ug clan can't club Ugg's clan into submission? Then he probably gives them a present, or just hope they goes away.
While I'm not denying that Britain could have - should have - done something more (make policy change clearer? Extend the hand of friendship to Stalin?) to halt the spread of Nazi Germany, let's not forget that the rest of the world also played their part. Italy, the reason Austria wasn't assimilated earlier, turned around and let Hitler have his fun. Stalin was, well, Stalin. France could have pushed Germany right out of the Rhineland if they had called its bluff, and probably would have broken its confidence in doing so. And America was busy dealing with their own problems.
We still practise appeasement, ignorance, and head in the sand to this very day. Is China an enemy of the EU and USA, or their awkward cousin they don't like, but they're polite to regardless of any occupying of, say, Tibet? What's the world doing about the Mugabe problem in Zimbabwe? North Korea? The ugly truth is that although we live in a world where I'm in a conversation with an American from the other side of the ocean, international relations and politics are still hideously primitive.
And, to bring it around full circle, this is why nothing will be done about Russia. We aren't going to be able to change the fact that Russia will most likely slide into yet another tyranny, the same way we couldn't stop it becoming "Communist". If it causes problems down the line, then we'll have to deal with them then.
Calling people wankers in the discussion forums is a privilege that is reserved for moderators. I object to ever have said anything like that. But, of course, we can agree that they are invertebrated masturbationists <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> That is, we. Perhaps. I view it not just as a lack of spine as a problem of potency. EU hasn't got it, even if they would like to. As long as USA resist the formation of a European defense pact that does not involve NATO, I'm afraid that our "force projection" capabilities are weak. Russia (turned into a real totalitarian state) would probably not fear present day Europe. Only China and USA in NATO will make the bear phear.
I'm not saying that the Russian problem with democracy and Putin's obvious grabs for power will be a problem that has to be solved at gunpoint. Trade embargos? Heck, europe is net EXPORTER to Russia by a large margin. If Russia feels like it I'm sure they could pick up heavy trades with China and other asian countries. Call in UN sanctions? Hmm *scratches head*. How do you blackmail a country with nuclear weapons the size of Russia using UN? It worked poorly with Iraq, and they had only a crummy fleet of Scuds to play with. Nope, a cleaning up of Russia must be done from within.
I suspect that Russia feels "alone" and the populace probably quite disspirited. Okay, sure, give us the good old tyrants back. Their steel bootes are heavy and oppressive but they give us food perhaps. Unlike the industrialization of Western Europe centuries ago, where industrialization where a leap ahead into something new, creation of the proletariat as well as the middle class burghers, Russia is playing catch-up in the democratization race. They are not at the lead of it. So it's probably easy to lose the focus when you realize how far behind you are, and there's no one around to pace you.
I do believe that part of the russian's problems with democracy is also a sense of isolation. When we think about it, who is creating bonds and building trade these days? Europe-USA. Europe-Asia- Asia-USA and everyone shilling like pimps to get into China. It seems like the world is ignoring Russia- being president Putin must feel like the modern day equivalent of playing Turkey in the old Empires in Arms strategy game. You've got a big chunk of land and a few measly weapons but no one pays any attention to you, and your grasp of power is waning like the sand running between your fingers. Your neighbours shy you like the plague.
But I am sorry for my pessimistic view, but I do view the Russian joint as "cased". The game is being played, the looting is being done on democracy and free media, and we can only cheer for the little man from the bylines. If there's anything that COULD be done for Russia it would be worldwide investment and trading with the big country. Bringing her out of isolation might help on outlooks, and eventually lead to a revigorized democratization proces.
[edit] I see you board lurking today. Why no #ns lurking?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh! I thought we should do something about Russia because they are going to start oppressing their people but obviously we should do something about it because you are afraid they start a new war. Don't you care about anything but yourself! Haf, soon we'll be in the caring thread again<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, well if we're talking about how it treats its own people - we embargo Cuba. Europe does not. Hell, you encourage a dictarship via cruise ship sales, a first in human history I think! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> We don't do the same to Mexico and Canada because they are basically pleasant, quiet democracies. So your analogy still makes not a whit of sense to me. But that could just be my fault, pray explain further.
I rather doubt 'A', especially since there is a long-standing dislike of the east that predates the Soviet era. You've heard of the Mongol invasions. How about the border wars with Red China? The Russians are a forgetful bunch, except when it comes to invasions. I'm sure they still do annual Nazi effigy barbeques to this day. I sincerely doubt 'B', but I think it was another Dread attempt at humor. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> And I doubt something as clearcut as 'C' either.
I think its in Europe and the EU's best interest to do something about Russia. Europe has a history of allowing dictatorships on (or in) its borders, and the end result just about always seems to be war and suffering (and don't roll your eyes at me saying 'ancient history' - Milosevic is standing trial in The Hague as we speak). How about a little proactivity for once, you lazy swine! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 9 2003, 06:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 9 2003, 06:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think its in Europe and the EU's best interest to do something about Russia. Europe has a history of letting dictatorships for on (or in) its borders, and the end result just about always seems to be war and suffering (and don't roll your eyes at me saying 'anvient history' - Milosevic is standing trial in The Hague as we speak). How about a little proactivity for once, you lazy swine! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Meh, we tried that whole pro-active thing when the Reds were taking over Russia, around 1920 (I think). We just don't have the energy to try something like that again.
We could always join forces with Russia, take over Europe, then stab them in the back when we get all of our troops there. What do you mean it's been done before? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> It would be kind of ironic if Europe went to war with Russia and we criticized France for being a war monger, they claim Russia has weapons of mass destruction. All UN inspectors are shot at the border so they never prove anything. We veto Europe?s vie to go to war with Russia, they do it anyway. Through some miracle from God they manage to win, and American cheese is now known as Freedom cheese in France.
<!--QuoteBegin--reasa+Dec 9 2003, 08:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Dec 9 2003, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We could always join forces with Russia, take over Europe, then stab them in the back when we get all of our troops there. What do you mean it's been done before? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> It would be kind of ironic if Europe went to war with Russia and we criticized France for being a war monger, they claim Russia has weapons of mass destruction. All UN inspectors are shot at the border so they never prove anything. We veto Europe?s vie to go to war with Russia, they do it anyway. Through some miracle from God they manage to win, and American cheese is now known as Freedom cheese in France. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comes to mind---Not official, but close enough.---Good for a laugh.
However easy or fun it is to poke fun at the french, this is serious business and will have far-reaching implications if things go as badly as some have predicted.
Russia is a nuclear power, has some very modern military equipment amongst some very dangerous old equipment, has a large infantry capacity, and has immense industrial potential if the machine o' war is ever activated. If push came to shove the I believe the EU just wouldn't be able to do much without resorting to nuclear arms in which case they'd be outclassed due to Russia's overall size, avaliability of nuclear materials, and the number of nuclear strikes it would take to bring such a large war machine to a halt. It would be like repeatedly shooting a charging elephant with a .22 pistol.
The UN is definitely not up to a challenge like this, I don't think any country or alliance is.
Guys, we have to step back and look at the situation. If Russia does go back to a dictatorship, so what? Nothing happened for 46 years, despite the former USSR and NATO staring down each others throats. Why do we think this will be any differant? Sure, a new Cold War isn't something that the world wants, but there's no reason to think that this one will get any hotter than the last one did. Personally I'm even looking forwards to a world where there is a semblance of balance again, instead of just one super-power dominating the globe.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 10 2003, 01:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 10 2003, 01:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think its in Europe and the EU's best interest to do something about Russia. Europe has a history of allowing dictatorships on (or in) its borders, and the end result just about always seems to be war and suffering <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> a) Russia run by dictatorship is a threat to the whole world. Why EU should have to do all the dirty work? b) What should Europe do about russia? I don't see any way to safely save Russias democracy. If Russia couldn't trade with EU, they would find another trading partner.
Edit: Bleh, my 18th birthday and I don't have anything better to do but argue with monse in the discussion forums. And I'm sick too, temperature over 39C <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Dec 10 2003, 12:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Dec 10 2003, 12:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> a) Russia run by dictatorship is a threat to the whole world. Why EU should have to do all the dirty work? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ahh, the europeans... 'STAY OUT OF OUR AFFAIRS AMERICA OR WE'LL... oh, wait a tic, we need your help now. Come on over here and help us this instant!!!'.
I rather doubt that America would ignore a new dictatorship in russia. We only spent a few trillion dollars and countless lives standing up the Soviets for 50 years. However, as I was pointing out, in this circumstance we'd appreciate it if you fellas in Finland and the rest of the 'Continent' get off your duffs and stop ignoring the problems on your borders. Don't make me do pretend coughing noises where I sarcastically say 'Germany' and 'Yugoslavia' in between coughs.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 10 2003, 08:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 10 2003, 08:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Dec 10 2003, 12:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Dec 10 2003, 12:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> a) Russia run by dictatorship is a threat to the whole world. Why EU should have to do all the dirty work? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ahh, the europeans... 'STAY OUT OF OUR AFFAIRS AMERICA OR WE'LL... oh, wait a tic, we need your help now. Come on over here and help us this instant!!!'. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's YOU who wants to do something about Russia. I find it funny that you insist Europe - which doesn't even see a problem - to do something about Russia because you are afraid they'll start 3rd world war. If we would be afraid of Canada attacking Europe, we would deal with it ourselves <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Not ask USA to do something about it. Or do you want to protect Europe from harm because we don't understand what's best for us?
However if we put aside this debate about if it's Europes job to do something about Russia, and assume for a moment that it is, I'm still curious to know what Europe could do about it. Aggression? Not against Russias army and nukes. Verbal warnings? Yeah, I bet that works. Trade embargo? I don't think Russias leaders are going to step down and admit their crimes, risk being prosecuted and sent in to jail just because it would be good for Russian people. They'll just slide in to dictatorship even faster when they don't need to communicate with Europe the little they do now.
In the end, seeing everyone has nukes and wars are not so common anymore, I don't think Russia would attack Europe. They want war as little as we do. The only reason for us to do something about Russia is that their people are going to suffer, but I don't think we can do much about that. 30years now on and Russia has become new Soviet Union. 30years from that and new revolution changes Russia back to democratic state. We can ofcourse argue if world is going to end or if Russia stays democratic and we are just being pessimistic. What ever happens, I just don't see anything can be done to Russias development.
Diplomatic pressure and grass-roots funding of a few opposition political parties would be a good start. Doing 'something' would be better than the current situation. There are lots of scenarios, but without any will to deal with issues while there's still time, Europe has not learned anything in the past 100 years...
That's being a bit harsh. The area is still trying to draw itself out of centuries old muck through the EU. It's just not congealed yet and thus, EU as an idea is still stronger than EU as an actual, political unit and the power cannot be measured in scale with USA or China. Lots of internal forces counteracting eachother in this proces.
Fair enough. But when is when? The EU has been around for 50 years. And NATO as well. And the UN. These elections, as well as the last couple years of Putinism, have some pretty clear earmarks of a big problem getting bigger. When does it finally get dealt with?
Edit:
And you're right, I'm being too harsh. But I've been studying European history for years, and it seems the last time they were in the habit of being proactive was when Queen Victoria was in charge and the Light Brigade was charging... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> . It always seems to be a huge. naive surprise everytime something bad happens in that neck of the woods, followed by decades of 'We really should have done blah blah beforehand'.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 11 2003, 02:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 11 2003, 02:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And you're right, I'm being too harsh. But I've been studying European history for years, and it seems the last time they were in the habit of being proactive was when Queen Victoria was in charge and the Light Brigade was charging... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> . It always seems to be a huge. naive surprise everytime something bad happens in that neck of the woods, followed by decades of 'We really should have done blah blah beforehand'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let's put it this way: Europe is a flock of sheeps, whereas USA is a flock of sheeps with a shepherd. When the shepherd says we go there, everyone goes. In Europe-flock, when one sheep wants to go north, half goes west and rest just sits there on their arses wondering wth is going on. We don't have a strong leading figure that would unite us and tell us what to do. Maybe in the future but currently it would be a miracle if all EU countries could just suddenly agree on something as drastic as interfering with Russias internal policy.
You can blame us all you want but it's not going to change the fact that EU is not going to do anything. So what happens next?
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 11 2003, 02:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 11 2003, 02:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fair enough. But when is when? The EU has been around for 50 years. And NATO as well. And the UN. These elections, as well as the last couple years of Putinism, have some pretty clear earmarks of a big problem getting bigger. When does it finally get dealt with? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Patience, young padawan. Do not forget we've merely been out of the shadow of the iron curtain for about 11 years merely. Europe suffers from a "little brother" complex I think. We've needed our hands held since 1945, and while we have enjoyed economic growth and unification of our internal markets, we're not in the habit of playing together on the political playfield. Always there's been USA watching over our shoulders in Western Europe through NATO and numerous army and airbases throughout the region. And there's still a lot of hidden Colonialism pride in France, UK and the other countries. They cannot make them selv to give in to the common cause. And up north we're just damned sceptical about them southern pansies with their mediterranean culture and corrupt bureaucratism.
So when? I guess when Hell Freezes over or Russia becomes a Democracy <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Or France, UK and Germany stops playing their own game. It is really up to them. The minute they would stand together and create consensus, and not just play Colonization 2.0 and always be chasing national interests, I'm sure we would start seeing what you are looking for. So, shoot the french president and give the britons a collective spank for being such stuborn islanders. I think the Germans are the easiest bunch around, very rational people they are. Except when we talk about War and Atomic Waste. They go a bit nuts over that.
And you're right, I'm being too harsh. But I've been studying European history for years, and it seems the last time they were in the habit of being proactive was when Queen Victoria was in charge and the Light Brigade was charging... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> . It always seems to be a huge. naive surprise everytime something bad happens in that neck of the woods, followed by decades of 'We really should have done blah blah beforehand'.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well after centuries of conflagarations created by pro-activitiy and appeasement politics alike, who's to blame people for a bit of apathy <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Anyways you nailed it: One Empire under Her Majesty - ie. one that rules and decides. In Europe we have countless little kings and thats the problem.
QUOTE (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 10 2003, 01:34 AM) <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think its in Europe and the EU's best interest to do something about Russia. Europe has a history of allowing dictatorships on (or in) its borders, and the end result just about always seems to be war and suffering<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... jeah An US point of view. Typical... EU is one block to u ?
but this is soo... (s-word)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ahh, the europeans... 'STAY OUT OF OUR AFFAIRS AMERICA OR WE'LL... oh, wait a tic, we need your help now. Come on over here and help us this instant!!!'.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As u call a europians... u mean France, Brits, sweden...<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->? And About fighting the russia... We finnish kicked the red army in Winter war with help of no one...
So stop showing u ignorance and stop using this europeans word, .... "we are not swedish and we dont wanna be Russian.. so lets be finnish ".
About russian.... It sucks so f*** badly and about the elections... I dont care... as they dont try to invade finland. I Live in Lappeenranta and it?s near russian border (20 km) (less then 15 miles, I think).. So whats wrong with russian.... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
THE RUSSIAN PPL... so simple. Ignorant, rude and so <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> in the ****....
Exitus, just...just don't. It would have been so much better if you had not said you're finnish <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The election was probably skewed, but the article is the only information on this subject I have heard so I can't really come to an informed conclusion at this current time
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Dec 11 2003, 08:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Dec 11 2003, 08:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Exitus, just...just don't. It would have been so much better if you had not said you're finnish <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ROFL. Dread, that's your birthday present right there from me. Good lord, what a post! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Immac - well said, well said. I really don't have an answer to the problem either, just expressing frustration in how Europe has always been a comglomeration of extremely polarized behavior. Before the 20th century it was far too loose with its various powers, conquering the world and stealing whatever it could get its paws on. And now swinging the pendulum backwards, to impotency and fears of its own shadow. Maybe the middle ground will be found in my lifetime, but we'll see...
Anyways, you heard it here first: there will be true dictatorship in Russia in my lifetime again. The russkies just aren't happy unless they're under the boot.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 11 2003, 03:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 11 2003, 03:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I really don't have an answer to the problem either, just expressing frustration in how Europe has always been a comglomeration of extremely polarized behavior. Before the 20th century it was far too loose with its various powers, conquering the world and stealing whatever it could get its paws on. And now swinging the pendulum backwards, to impotency and fears of its own shadow. Maybe the middle ground will be found in my lifetime, but we'll see... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you're being a bit harsh. America isn't all that different. Behaviour has to be looked at in the context of the times, and I can't help but feel that you're looking at countries in Europe from a modern day, American perspective.
Edit: I reckon the lifetime of a thread in this forum is the time it takes for America/Europe to overtake the topic at hand. It seems that even if someone posted a topic on sandwiches, you'd get someone saying, "American/French/German/British/'European' turkey sandwiches are the best!!", and that's that.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 11 2003, 10:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 11 2003, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Before the 20th century it was far too loose with its various powers, conquering the world and stealing whatever it could get its paws on. And now swinging the pendulum backwards, to impotency and fears of its own shadow. Maybe the middle ground will be found in my lifetime, but we'll see...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well we've had some darn entertaining wars we've had! There's material for a booming american cottage industry of high quality war games for the next century! Not to mention a few great action games and war movies. Why, I've bought two WW2 themede games this fall already. Can't get enough.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyways, you heard it here first: there will be true dictatorship in Russia in my lifetime again. The russkies just aren't happy unless they're under the boot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I predicted that! Give proper credentials <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Then people also know where to send their mailbombs when it turns out to be untrue (I hope it wont happen!)
<!--QuoteBegin--Snidely+Dec 12 2003, 02:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Dec 12 2003, 02:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 11 2003, 03:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 11 2003, 03:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I really don't have an answer to the problem either, just expressing frustration in how Europe has always been a comglomeration of extremely polarized behavior. Before the 20th century it was far too loose with its various powers, conquering the world and stealing whatever it could get its paws on. And now swinging the pendulum backwards, to impotency and fears of its own shadow. Maybe the middle ground will be found in my lifetime, but we'll see... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you're being a bit harsh. America isn't all that different. Behaviour has to be looked at in the context of the times, and I can't help but feel that you're looking at countries in Europe from a modern day, American perspective.
Edit: I reckon the lifetime of a thread in this forum is the time it takes for America/Europe to overtake the topic at hand. It seems that even if someone posted a topic on sandwiches, you'd get someone saying, "American/French/German/British/'European' turkey sandwiches are the best!!", and that's that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, we should have a chat about china then! They're big fries in the world and a country of much greater magnitude than Russia. Also feared and loathed yet craved by the capitalists of the world. An enigma wrapped in a mystery!
Comments
P.S. As a Brit, I'm not that keen on Europe myself. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> I'm not european, damn it! ):
Let me think on it a bit more and be back shortly. And doggone it, you are a European like it or not. Such an odd attitude the Brits have about the 'Continentals'. You joined the EU and two World Wars though, so it's your own fault and you're stuck being no better than a frenchman now. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh! I thought we should do something about Russia because they are going to start oppressing their people but obviously we should do something about it because you are afraid they start a new war. Don't you care about anything but yourself! Haf, soon we'll be in the caring thread again <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now quit yer dodgin' and answer the question - what is Europe going to do about it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm...nothing? My guess is nothing! At least if it happens before the tighter unification of Europe. However choose what countries you are blaming, or do you blame EU? If you say 'what is Europe going to do', it gives an impression like you expect Iceland to do something about it. Or Portugal. Or Finland <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also, since Russia threatens the whole world, shouldn't the whole world also do something about it? If it threatens Europe alone, then it's Europes own problem, so suyf imperialistic yankee-demon! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now I assume you want Europe as whole to embargo Russia so we would remove the threat to USA? Right-o. Now what do you think would happen? Either
a) Russia starts hating Europe and western countries even more. European countries lose money-zor because they stop trading with Russia(lots of oil btw). Russia turns over to Asia and forms bonds with China. Hoozaaa!
b) Russian government admits it's wrong and changes it ways. Jeesus arrives riding with a flying unicorn from the cloud palace. MonsE apologizes his behaviour infront of whole NS community. Hell freezes over.
c) Russia extremely PO'd. Eastern-block countries can kiss their a** good bye. Europe forms a defensive line against Russia. WW3 and I'll be in the front lines freezing my balls off because I live next to Russia. MonsE barbeques happy in his shiny new backyard and enjoys the fireworks.
I know you'd like that last one but I don't. I like to keep my balls melt. I'd like the second one best, you can start by apologizing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> The first one is the most likely to happen though.
<a href='http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2003/12/10/003.html' target='_blank'>http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2003.../12/10/003.html</a>
I would put it to you that "appeasement, ignorance, and head in the sand" pretty much sums up foreign policy of pretty much any country in pretty much any time. The Ug clan can't club Ugg's clan into submission? Then he probably gives them a present, or just hope they goes away.
While I'm not denying that Britain could have - should have - done something more (make policy change clearer? Extend the hand of friendship to Stalin?) to halt the spread of Nazi Germany, let's not forget that the rest of the world also played their part. Italy, the reason Austria wasn't assimilated earlier, turned around and let Hitler have his fun. Stalin was, well, Stalin. France could have pushed Germany right out of the Rhineland if they had called its bluff, and probably would have broken its confidence in doing so. And America was busy dealing with their own problems.
We still practise appeasement, ignorance, and head in the sand to this very day. Is China an enemy of the EU and USA, or their awkward cousin they don't like, but they're polite to regardless of any occupying of, say, Tibet? What's the world doing about the Mugabe problem in Zimbabwe? North Korea? The ugly truth is that although we live in a world where I'm in a conversation with an American from the other side of the ocean, international relations and politics are still hideously primitive.
And, to bring it around full circle, this is why nothing will be done about Russia. We aren't going to be able to change the fact that Russia will most likely slide into yet another tyranny, the same way we couldn't stop it becoming "Communist". If it causes problems down the line, then we'll have to deal with them then.
I'm not saying that the Russian problem with democracy and Putin's obvious grabs for power will be a problem that has to be solved at gunpoint. Trade embargos? Heck, europe is net EXPORTER to Russia by a large margin. If Russia feels like it I'm sure they could pick up heavy trades with China and other asian countries. Call in UN sanctions? Hmm *scratches head*. How do you blackmail a country with nuclear weapons the size of Russia using UN? It worked poorly with Iraq, and they had only a crummy fleet of Scuds to play with. Nope, a cleaning up of Russia must be done from within.
I suspect that Russia feels "alone" and the populace probably quite disspirited. Okay, sure, give us the good old tyrants back. Their steel bootes are heavy and oppressive but they give us food perhaps. Unlike the industrialization of Western Europe centuries ago, where industrialization where a leap ahead into something new, creation of the proletariat as well as the middle class burghers, Russia is playing catch-up in the democratization race. They are not at the lead of it. So it's probably easy to lose the focus when you realize how far behind you are, and there's no one around to pace you.
I do believe that part of the russian's problems with democracy is also a sense of isolation. When we think about it, who is creating bonds and building trade these days? Europe-USA. Europe-Asia- Asia-USA and everyone shilling like pimps to get into China. It seems like the world is ignoring Russia- being president Putin must feel like the modern day equivalent of playing Turkey in the old Empires in Arms strategy game. You've got a big chunk of land and a few measly weapons but no one pays any attention to you, and your grasp of power is waning like the sand running between your fingers. Your neighbours shy you like the plague.
But I am sorry for my pessimistic view, but I do view the Russian joint as "cased". The game is being played, the looting is being done on democracy and free media, and we can only cheer for the little man from the bylines. If there's anything that COULD be done for Russia it would be worldwide investment and trading with the big country. Bringing her out of isolation might help on outlooks, and eventually lead to a revigorized democratization proces.
[edit] I see you board lurking today. Why no #ns lurking?
Hmm, well if we're talking about how it treats its own people - we embargo Cuba. Europe does not. Hell, you encourage a dictarship via cruise ship sales, a first in human history I think! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> We don't do the same to Mexico and Canada because they are basically pleasant, quiet democracies. So your analogy still makes not a whit of sense to me. But that could just be my fault, pray explain further.
I rather doubt 'A', especially since there is a long-standing dislike of the east that predates the Soviet era. You've heard of the Mongol invasions. How about the border wars with Red China? The Russians are a forgetful bunch, except when it comes to invasions. I'm sure they still do annual Nazi effigy barbeques to this day. I sincerely doubt 'B', but I think it was another Dread attempt at humor. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> And I doubt something as clearcut as 'C' either.
I think its in Europe and the EU's best interest to do something about Russia. Europe has a history of allowing dictatorships on (or in) its borders, and the end result just about always seems to be war and suffering (and don't roll your eyes at me saying 'ancient history' - Milosevic is standing trial in The Hague as we speak). How about a little proactivity for once, you lazy swine! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Meh, we tried that whole pro-active thing when the Reds were taking over Russia, around 1920 (I think). We just don't have the energy to try something like that again.
<i>*EU goes back to sleep*</i>
<a href='http://www.theonion.com/3948/opinion1.html' target='_blank'>http://www.theonion.com/3948/opinion1.html</a>
You should check out this week’s whole issue it's an unusually funny one.
*feels like an idiot for being unable to add anything serious to the discussion*
<a href='http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html' target='_blank'>http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html</a>
Comes to mind---Not official, but close enough.---Good for a laugh.
However easy or fun it is to poke fun at the french, this is serious business and will have far-reaching implications if things go as badly as some have predicted.
Russia is a nuclear power, has some very modern military equipment amongst some very dangerous old equipment, has a large infantry capacity, and has immense industrial potential if the machine o' war is ever activated. If push came to shove the I believe the EU just wouldn't be able to do much without resorting to nuclear arms in which case they'd be outclassed due to Russia's overall size, avaliability of nuclear materials, and the number of nuclear strikes it would take to bring such a large war machine to a halt. It would be like repeatedly shooting a charging elephant with a .22 pistol.
The UN is definitely not up to a challenge like this, I don't think any country or alliance is.
a) Russia run by dictatorship is a threat to the whole world. Why EU should have to do all the dirty work?
b) What should Europe do about russia? I don't see any way to safely save Russias democracy. If Russia couldn't trade with EU, they would find another trading partner.
Edit: Bleh, my 18th birthday and I don't have anything better to do but argue with monse in the discussion forums. And I'm sick too, temperature over 39C <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ahh, the europeans... 'STAY OUT OF OUR AFFAIRS AMERICA OR WE'LL... oh, wait a tic, we need your help now. Come on over here and help us this instant!!!'.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I rather doubt that America would ignore a new dictatorship in russia. We only spent a few trillion dollars and countless lives standing up the Soviets for 50 years. However, as I was pointing out, in this circumstance we'd appreciate it if you fellas in Finland and the rest of the 'Continent' get off your duffs and stop ignoring the problems on your borders. Don't make me do pretend coughing noises where I sarcastically say 'Germany' and 'Yugoslavia' in between coughs.
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ahh, the europeans... 'STAY OUT OF OUR AFFAIRS AMERICA OR WE'LL... oh, wait a tic, we need your help now. Come on over here and help us this instant!!!'. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's YOU who wants to do something about Russia. I find it funny that you insist Europe - which doesn't even see a problem - to do something about Russia because you are afraid they'll start 3rd world war. If we would be afraid of Canada attacking Europe, we would deal with it ourselves <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Not ask USA to do something about it. Or do you want to protect Europe from harm because we don't understand what's best for us?
However if we put aside this debate about if it's Europes job to do something about Russia, and assume for a moment that it is, I'm still curious to know what Europe could do about it. Aggression? Not against Russias army and nukes. Verbal warnings? Yeah, I bet that works. Trade embargo? I don't think Russias leaders are going to step down and admit their crimes, risk being prosecuted and sent in to jail just because it would be good for Russian people. They'll just slide in to dictatorship even faster when they don't need to communicate with Europe the little they do now.
In the end, seeing everyone has nukes and wars are not so common anymore, I don't think Russia would attack Europe. They want war as little as we do. The only reason for us to do something about Russia is that their people are going to suffer, but I don't think we can do much about that. 30years now on and Russia has become new Soviet Union. 30years from that and new revolution changes Russia back to democratic state. We can ofcourse argue if world is going to end or if Russia stays democratic and we are just being pessimistic. What ever happens, I just don't see anything can be done to Russias development.
Edit:
And you're right, I'm being too harsh. But I've been studying European history for years, and it seems the last time they were in the habit of being proactive was when Queen Victoria was in charge and the Light Brigade was charging... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> . It always seems to be a huge. naive surprise everytime something bad happens in that neck of the woods, followed by decades of 'We really should have done blah blah beforehand'.
Let's put it this way: Europe is a flock of sheeps, whereas USA is a flock of sheeps with a shepherd. When the shepherd says we go there, everyone goes. In Europe-flock, when one sheep wants to go north, half goes west and rest just sits there on their arses wondering wth is going on. We don't have a strong leading figure that would unite us and tell us what to do. Maybe in the future but currently it would be a miracle if all EU countries could just suddenly agree on something as drastic as interfering with Russias internal policy.
You can blame us all you want but it's not going to change the fact that EU is not going to do anything. So what happens next?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Patience, young padawan. Do not forget we've merely been out of the shadow of the iron curtain for about 11 years merely. Europe suffers from a "little brother" complex I think. We've needed our hands held since 1945, and while we have enjoyed economic growth and unification of our internal markets, we're not in the habit of playing together on the political playfield. Always there's been USA watching over our shoulders in Western Europe through NATO and numerous army and airbases throughout the region. And there's still a lot of hidden Colonialism pride in France, UK and the other countries. They cannot make them selv to give in to the common cause. And up north we're just damned sceptical about them southern pansies with their mediterranean culture and corrupt bureaucratism.
So when? I guess when Hell Freezes over or Russia becomes a Democracy <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Or France, UK and Germany stops playing their own game. It is really up to them. The minute they would stand together and create consensus, and not just play Colonization 2.0 and always be chasing national interests, I'm sure we would start seeing what you are looking for. So, shoot the french president and give the britons a collective spank for being such stuborn islanders. I think the Germans are the easiest bunch around, very rational people they are. Except when we talk about War and Atomic Waste. They go a bit nuts over that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Edit:
And you're right, I'm being too harsh. But I've been studying European history for years, and it seems the last time they were in the habit of being proactive was when Queen Victoria was in charge and the Light Brigade was charging... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> . It always seems to be a huge. naive surprise everytime something bad happens in that neck of the woods, followed by decades of 'We really should have done blah blah beforehand'.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well after centuries of conflagarations created by pro-activitiy and appeasement politics alike, who's to blame people for a bit of apathy <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Anyways you nailed it: One Empire under Her Majesty - ie. one that rules and decides. In Europe we have countless little kings and thats the problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think its in Europe and the EU's best interest to do something about Russia. Europe has a history of allowing dictatorships on (or in) its borders, and the end result just about always seems to be war and suffering<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... jeah An US point of view. Typical... EU is one block to u ?
but this is soo... (s-word)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ahh, the europeans... 'STAY OUT OF OUR AFFAIRS AMERICA OR WE'LL... oh, wait a tic, we need your help now. Come on over here and help us this instant!!!'.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As u call a europians... u mean France, Brits, sweden...<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->? And About fighting the russia... We finnish kicked the red army in Winter war with help of no one...
So stop showing u ignorance and stop using this europeans word, .... "we are not swedish and we dont wanna be Russian.. so lets be finnish ".
About russian.... It sucks so f*** badly and about the elections... I dont care... as they dont try to invade finland. I Live in Lappeenranta and it?s near russian border (20 km) (less then 15 miles, I think).. So whats wrong with russian.... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
THE RUSSIAN PPL... so simple. Ignorant, rude and so <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> in the ****....
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The election was probably skewed, but the article is the only information on this subject I have heard so I can't really come to an informed conclusion at this current time
ROFL. Dread, that's your birthday present right there from me. Good lord, what a post! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Immac - well said, well said. I really don't have an answer to the problem either, just expressing frustration in how Europe has always been a comglomeration of extremely polarized behavior. Before the 20th century it was far too loose with its various powers, conquering the world and stealing whatever it could get its paws on. And now swinging the pendulum backwards, to impotency and fears of its own shadow. Maybe the middle ground will be found in my lifetime, but we'll see...
Anyways, you heard it here first: there will be true dictatorship in Russia in my lifetime again. The russkies just aren't happy unless they're under the boot.
I think you're being a bit harsh. America isn't all that different. Behaviour has to be looked at in the context of the times, and I can't help but feel that you're looking at countries in Europe from a modern day, American perspective.
Edit: I reckon the lifetime of a thread in this forum is the time it takes for America/Europe to overtake the topic at hand. It seems that even if someone posted a topic on sandwiches, you'd get someone saying, "American/French/German/British/'European' turkey sandwiches are the best!!", and that's that.
Before the 20th century it was far too loose with its various powers, conquering the world and stealing whatever it could get its paws on. And now swinging the pendulum backwards, to impotency and fears of its own shadow. Maybe the middle ground will be found in my lifetime, but we'll see...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well we've had some darn entertaining wars we've had! There's material for a booming american cottage industry of high quality war games for the next century! Not to mention a few great action games and war movies. Why, I've bought two WW2 themede games this fall already. Can't get enough.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyways, you heard it here first: there will be true dictatorship in Russia in my lifetime again. The russkies just aren't happy unless they're under the boot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I predicted that! Give proper credentials <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Then people also know where to send their mailbombs when it turns out to be untrue (I hope it wont happen!)
I think you're being a bit harsh. America isn't all that different. Behaviour has to be looked at in the context of the times, and I can't help but feel that you're looking at countries in Europe from a modern day, American perspective.
Edit: I reckon the lifetime of a thread in this forum is the time it takes for America/Europe to overtake the topic at hand. It seems that even if someone posted a topic on sandwiches, you'd get someone saying, "American/French/German/British/'European' turkey sandwiches are the best!!", and that's that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, we should have a chat about china then! They're big fries in the world and a country of much greater magnitude than Russia. Also feared and loathed yet craved by the capitalists of the world. An enigma wrapped in a mystery!