I agree wholesale with MonsE's point: EU forming into a real union and not just a merry Farmer's Fair (complete with Ferris Wheels and blue ribbons for Most Subsidized Cow of the Year), DOES REQUIRE A FUNCTIONAL ARMY. Not a Japanese Self Defence Force or a rag-tag band of 15 armiers with 15 generals and 15 prime ministers trying to call the shots. There needs to be one commander. This only happens the day the rest of the EU gets the impression that the french or the germans aren't just in it to shaft everyone else when they feel like it. And of course, that the germans will accept their need for a regular army again, and not their currently gun shot shy Bundeswehr. That is, the population needs to face that dillemma, the army, I am sure, is more than ready and capable of doing such things.
We have a long road ahead of us. But he who despairs is the servant of Sauron!
<!--QuoteBegin--Immacolata+Dec 23 2003, 06:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Immacolata @ Dec 23 2003, 06:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But he who despairs is the servant of Sauron! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is this Sauron guy Jacque Chirac's cousin from Paris? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>edited for teeny danish brainz0rs XD </span>
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 24 2003, 12:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 24 2003, 12:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And our air force is completely built in Finland. US-designed fighters though <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not according to the Finnish Defense Forces <a href='http://www2.mil.fi/maavoimat/kalustoesittely/00116_en.dsp' target='_blank'>website</a>. In fact from reading on, it seems that just about nothing of yours is designed or manufactured locally (hell, you even use ex-Soviet armored fighting vehicles, and we saw how well THAT worked out for the iraqi's!). I sure hope you don't get into a trade embargo with any of your defense contractor nations, you'll be breaking out the slingshots. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I just have to start educating you <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you are referring to the 'specs' panel on right, "manufactured in the USA" means that the F18 fighter is originally USA design. However it doesn't have anything to do with the fighters we have. I'll translate you something from the finnish parts of the site: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All one seated F-18 C Hornets were built in Finland by Patria Finavitecin(finnish corporation mind you).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We have 56 one seated F-18 C Hornets(finnish built) And 7 two seated F-18 D Hornets which were flown here in 1995/96. + some 50 older Hawks as training planes built by those "limey snapperheads" as you like to refer to them <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
So there. We can build our own jet fighters and we build lots of other stuff too: -fighters suits(snow/cold suits) -fragment/bulletproof vest -assault rifles -mortars -mines/explosives -artillery/radar -field hospitals -roller truck (real name?) -APC "PASI", used widely by UN peacekeeping forces -variety of army trucks -lots of naval radar, artillery & missile ships +Finlands unique unit: Dread <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Missiles/tanks are what we have to import most. Yes, we use some crappy T-72 though we are replacing them with newer German built Leopard 2's, which are IIRC about as old as the Abrams you use in Iraq. Though the main point is that we just try to get along with Russia and in case s**t hits the fan, we have something to keep them ruskies at bay. We are not trying to get the greatest army in the history of mankind. And I rule with slingshot. I'm not even kidding <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If some crazed dictator takes control of Saudi Arabia and says 'no more oil!', the US simply starts pumping out of Alaska. You on the other hand, need to go in there and take charge, or fall back into the dark ages. A rather improbable scenario I realise, but like I said before, no one ever lost a war by being too prepared.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm probably all hippymood now that it's Christmas and all but I don't think "we don't want to give you oil" is reason enough to invade. There's still plenty of oil in the sea and even more in Russia which is more than happy to trade. However, in the end, I have to agree that it's probably good to have a sturdy army controlled by one leader protecting EU. To get this stone rolling again: before we can establish that one army, we need to separate from NATO completely. I think that's the biggest obstacle in EU-nations way. The other big obstacle is that there is no real need to integrate Europe in to EU. I believe that common enemy would be in need to get everyone working together, so I'm looking(not hoping) at Russia and watching if the new CCCP/USSR happens anytime soon.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Blah blah blah, holy crap I'm off-topic, and I have to correct MonsE with glee since he does not speak Finnish<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are right, I am wrong. I shall learn Finnish so that I do not have to rely on your self-mistranslated websites ever again. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The rest of your point is correct, and you should create a free-standing EU army if you want to be a player. If only to provide me endless amusement regarding the 10-year debate of what language will the standard, nevermind the caliber of your tank rounds. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 26 2003, 06:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 26 2003, 06:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You are right, I am wrong. I shall learn Finnish <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually that's not a bad idea at all. You would be in a key position when we take over the world with our foul-tempered hedgies <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The rest of your point is correct, and you should create a free-standing EU army if you want to be a player. If only to provide me endless amusement regarding the 10-year debate of what language will the standard, nevermind the caliber of your tank rounds. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The language debate actually will be very amusing, as everyone knows english would be the wisest solution but do you think French are going to give up? Or Germans? Or Italians? Currently translating EVERY piece of paper in to EVERY language doesn't sound very effecient to me. Though I would be fine with 3 official languages: English, German and French. Or make a compromise and settle for Finnish <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Spellingz0r and I try to bork the quotes as they for some mysterious reason actually work now.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Dec 26 2003, 02:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Dec 26 2003, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The language debate actually will be very amusing, as everyone knows english would be the wisest solution but do you think French are going to give up? Or Germans? Or Italians? Currently translating EVERY piece of paper in to EVERY language doesn't sound very effecient to me. Though I would be fine with 3 official languages: English, German and French. Or make a compromise and settle for Finnish <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Spellingz0r and I try to bork the quotes as they for some mysterious reason actually work now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You'd probably have to go strictly volunteer also, and ditch the draft. Not only would you get the better quality of troops necessary to make a truly professional force, but I'm pretty sure some Normandy french farmer draftee is not going to speak German OR English.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><i>Although I bet they'd know the right words for 'I surrendor'. Oh come on, you didn't really expect me to pass over an easy one like that, did you?!?!</i></span>
The language barrier was a HUGE problem in the Soviet Army all during its lifespan. They used Russian-speaking officers who often could not understand a word their Siberian/Uzbek/Tajak/etc troops were saying. Makes it hard to comprehend a returning patrol leader's report of enemy tanks over the ridge - no one wants to play charades in a fighting hole. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 26 2003, 08:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 26 2003, 08:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You'd probably have to go strictly volunteer also, and ditch the draft. Not only would you get the better quality of troops necessary to make a truly professional force, but I'm pretty sure some Normandy french farmer draftee is not going to speak German OR English. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think there's any problems with the volunteer part. If I'm not completely mistaken, that's the way it works in USA and EU countries(soon) will have as much population as USA and more.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><i>Although I bet they'd know the right words for 'I surrendor'. Oh come on, you didn't really expect me to pass over an easy one like that, did you?!?!</i></span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right, there's no need for logic to back up all the cheap shots Yanks and French take at each other. You must have some spontaneously replicating anti-French/USA code in your DNA <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yep, in the USA all armed forces are 100% volunteer (although this is a fairly recent change - from 1939-1973, the Army, Navy, and Air force had a draft; the Marines though have always been volunteer-based). Having more population has nothing to do with how well you recruit armed forces though.
The Russians have had a US-sized or larger population for a hundred years but they always have trouble getting anyone into uniform without a draft-based on their reputation for mistreatment, poor conditions, low morale, low pay, etc. Your own country relies on a draft mainly because they cannot get enough volunteers in peacetime, I'll reckon, and it only has ~40,000 troops (10,000 actual combat-ready) out of ~5,000,000 people, right?
As for French/American cheap shots, we learned it from our former colonial masters, themselves no great friends of the French for a millenia; blame the English. It's all in good fun though, otherwise we wouldn't have helped each other so much over the decades...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The ultimate goal of military defence is to take pre-emptive action against attempts to subjugate Finland or to make use of her territory. <a href='http://www2.mil.fi/maavoimat/maavoimat/index_en.dsp' target='_blank'>http://www2.mil.fi/maavoimat/maavoimat/index_en.dsp</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> OMG YOU ARE WARMONGERS WITHOUT LEGAL BASIS FOR YOUR ACTIONS!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Heh heh.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The ultimate goal of military defence is to take pre-emptive action against attempts to subjugate Finland or to make use of her territory. <a href='http://www2.mil.fi/maavoimat/maavoimat/index_en.dsp' target='_blank'>http://www2.mil.fi/maavoimat/maavoimat/index_en.dsp</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> OMG YOU ARE WARMONGERS WITHOUT LEGAL BASIS FOR YOUR ACTIONS!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Heh heh. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Har <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> That's pretty good one, although the whole quote goes: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Fundamental objective of national military defence is to make even contemplating the subjugation of Finland or the exploitation of its territory <b>an unprofitable venture from the start.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your own country relies on a draft mainly because they cannot get enough volunteers in peacetime, I'll reckon, and it only has ~40,000 troops (10,000 actual combat-ready) out of ~5,000,000 people, right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's about correct. Some 40 000 standing forces and 500 000 men and women who have gone through armed training. We have a serious need for the draft with the neighbour we have. It's all part of the plan to pre-emptively prevent enemy from attacking. Currently Russia knows it costs too much to take over Finland compared to the gain, but we never know how they calculate the gain. It wouldn't be the first time for them to want bumper-zones on the border of Russia and western Europe. Currently the pressure isn't so bad but you never know what happens. So it's better to be prepared by drafting people.
Ummm...what were we talking about? EU constitution or Finlands defense plans? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Dec 26 2003, 03:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Dec 26 2003, 03:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ummm...what were we talking about? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I have no idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Currently Russia knows it costs too much to take over Finland compared to the gain, but we never know how they calculate the gain.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I sincerely doubt that Finland's 1 brigade of armor would give even a paper tiger like Russia more than a few days fight. This is not 1939 anymore.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 26 2003, 10:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 26 2003, 10:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I sincerely doubt that Finland's 1 brigade of armor would give even a paper tiger like Russia more than a few days fight. This is not 1939 anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The point is that we have lots and lots of forests and lakes. That basically means you either drive through the roads or you walk all the way, and our roads on the east-side of the country are extremely easy to mine/block. Hence it all boils down to running in circles in our vast forrests and trying to keep their air-force at bay.
I'm sure we couldn't hold back if Russia would come at us and really try, however we are making sure that they still suffer enough casualties to not attack us for light reasons. Light reason being that Puting likes reindeers. Of course if they want a bumper-zone, we're gone. Which is why we need a strong EUF to back us up. And we are back on topic! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now if we get a real hardliner with balls of steel as next Russias president and USA gets a president that concentrates on domestic policy, all EU countries get scared sh**les and suddenly everyone has a need to form one powerful army and be all buddies so we don't need to change our pants every times something suprising happens.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Dec 26 2003, 04:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Dec 26 2003, 04:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That basically means you either drive through the roads or you walk all the way, and our roads on the east-side of the country are extremely easy to mine/block. Hence it all boils down to running in circles in our vast forrests and trying to keep their air-force at bay. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You do remember that Iraq placed rougly 1 million mines in front of Kuwait in 1990, which gave the Marines that went in that way almost a one-hour delay? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now if we get a real hardliner with balls of steel as next Russias president and USA gets a president that concentrates on domestic policy, all EU countries get scared sh**les and suddenly everyone has a need to form one powerful army and be all buddies so we don't need to change our pants every times something suprising happens.
That would do some serious good on this EU thing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow on-topic! This, my friend, is a very, very , very real possibility. The Democratic front-runner here right now is a fellow name Howard Dean. He is a pretty strict isolationist and is in no way intereted in fighting terrorism, dictatorships, or leaving the country's borders at all. If he gets in you can forget about any US military aid for 4 years unless the Russkies start driving for France. Unfortunately for you, this EU army decision really should have been made about 10 years ago, when your constitution should have been written.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 26 2003, 10:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 26 2003, 10:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Dec 26 2003, 04:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Dec 26 2003, 04:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That basically means you either drive through the roads or you walk all the way, and our roads on the east-side of the country are extremely easy to mine/block. Hence it all boils down to running in circles in our vast forrests and trying to keep their air-force at bay. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You do remember that Iraq placed rougly 1 million mines in front of Kuwait in 1990, which gave the Marines that went in that way almost a one-hour delay? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then again, it's not very easy to place mines very tactically when there's 1tree/100 square kilometers. I can draw you a picture of 1 million mines placed on desert and 1 million mines placed on a road surrounded by forest. It's slightly more effecient that way <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow on-topic! This, my friend, is a very, very , very real possibility. The Democratic front-runner here right now is a fellow name Howard Dean. He is a pretty strict isolationist and is in no way intereted in fighting terrorism, dictatorships, or leaving the country's borders at all. If he gets in you can forget about any US military aid for 4 years unless the Russkies start driving for France. Unfortunately for you, this EU army decision really should have been made about 10 years ago, when your constitution should have been written.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How's that? Of course this stuff takes some time but then I guess we just have to hope that the next Russian president is bada** enough to make scary threats but does so only to gain peoples votes. Example: "Russia is teh ownz0r and soon we will kick some serious butt in da west-side and we will be da mad-pimpin' scary gansta...and everyone will have bread and work too."
It's not like Russia will attack THAT surprisingly. It will take years and years for them to slide in to totalitarian dictatorship that wants to rule the world. In that time, hopefully, we can pull our act together and form a better army than Russia has. Even though we have dropped behind in war technology because there hasn't been actual need, we(European countries, excluding east-europe) are still scientifically ahead of Russia. It shouldn't be so hard to make an army strong enough to defend from the immediate danger.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Dec 26 2003, 05:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Dec 26 2003, 05:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Then again, it's not very easy to place mines very tactically when there's 1tree/100 square kilometers. I can draw you a picture of 1 million mines placed on desert and 1 million mines placed on a road surrounded by forest. It's slightly more effecient that way <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Gosh, when are you going to spend some time in the service and learn a little abit about such things, Dread Zepplin! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> The minefield density is entirely irrelevant these days. You simply use a clearing charge fired off the top of an engineers vehicle. It trails a cable of det-cord and RDX charges a few hundred feet behind it. You set if off and a path about 10 meters wide and 100 meters long is mine-free. Total time to clear field - 10 seconds. Mines are no longer a serious weapon in warfare anymore against a modern force.
And sorry, did I say 1 million? I meant <a href='http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/cement_factory_ii/cement_factory_ii_tabe.htm' target='_blank'>3.5 million</a>. Side note - you better hope they invade before 2006, as you will <a href='http://www.icbl.org/lm/2003/finland.html' target='_blank'>not have any AP mines after that</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It will take years and years for them to slide in to totalitarian dictatorship that wants to rule the world<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeeaahhh, <a href='http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,1102929,00.html' target='_blank'>years and years</a>. Oops, or maybe not!
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 26 2003, 11:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 26 2003, 11:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Gosh, when are you going to spend some time in the service and learn a little abit about such things, Dread Zepplin! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Be patient. 6 months and you wont hear a word from me for some time. Your personal sabbath <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mines are no longer a serious weapon in warfare anymore against a modern force.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then we hope ruskies don't have one <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Side note - you better hope they invade before 2006, as you will <a href='http://www.icbl.org/lm/2003/finland.html' target='_blank'>not have any AP mines after that</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holy crap! I thought they were only talking about it and not doing anything, like they usually act but they are actually going to do it? And for some lame humanitarian reasons I bet <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Boohoo, the poor invader gets his lower body blown off. Bah I tell you. Luckily we can still use AT mines. I'm not so worried about enemy soldiers as I'm about enemy vehicles. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finland remains the only country in the European Union (EU) that has not signed, ratified or acceded to the Mine Ban Treaty<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hell, it's easy for French and Italians to condemn the 'inhuman' mines when they are there cozily behind the whole eastern Europe. Wankers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeeaahhh, years and years. Oops, or maybe not!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They might have rigged elections and slight feeling of dictatorship, but it's still not totalitarian and at least they haven't said they want to invade the Europe <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
My god, we're O/T... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They might have rigged elections and slight feeling of dictatorship, but it's still not totalitarian and at least they haven't said they want to invade the Europe <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh huh...
<i>My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time... Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."
-Neville Chamberlain "Peace for Our Time," September 30, 1938 </i>
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 27 2003, 12:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 27 2003, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <i>My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time... Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."
-Neville Chamberlain "Peace for Our Time," September 30, 1938 </i> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 5 points. I don't know what else to say. However I hope you're wrong about them Russians...
...and if I still know you after say, four years, and I'm not under Russian dictatorship, I'm going to rub this all around your face. You were either wrong about Russia becoming hostile towards Europe, EU force succeeding or Finlands defense capabilities, but if I'm still sitting infront of my computer, I'm totally going to pour this stuff on you. And that all as a friend <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Ooooooh! Looky looky! Spooge and eggmac are here. Maybe they will get this back on tracks. I'm all out of ideas so maybe they have some refreshing opinion to throw in <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 27 2003, 01:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 27 2003, 01:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Rub away! I'll be glad to be wrong on something like a return to totalitarianism in Russia... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And I'm glad if someone else is wrong about the return of...uhh...it would be great if Russia wouldn't become a totalitarian state. The signs are strong but there's still plenty of hope. Maybe I have a biased view because if I'm wrong, it could mean that my country will be overrun by ruskies within a decade. We'll see what happens but it seems to be so, that the fate of Russia and USA affect a lot what happens to EU.
Comments
We have a long road ahead of us. But he who despairs is the servant of Sauron!
Is this Sauron guy Jacque Chirac's cousin from Paris? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>edited for teeny danish brainz0rs XD </span>
Not according to the Finnish Defense Forces <a href='http://www2.mil.fi/maavoimat/kalustoesittely/00116_en.dsp' target='_blank'>website</a>. In fact from reading on, it seems that just about nothing of yours is designed or manufactured locally (hell, you even use ex-Soviet armored fighting vehicles, and we saw how well THAT worked out for the iraqi's!). I sure hope you don't get into a trade embargo with any of your defense contractor nations, you'll be breaking out the slingshots. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just have to start educating you <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you are referring to the 'specs' panel on right, "manufactured in the USA" means that the F18 fighter is originally USA design. However it doesn't have anything to do with the fighters we have. I'll translate you something from the finnish parts of the site:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All one seated F-18 C Hornets were built in Finland by Patria Finavitecin(finnish corporation mind you).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have 56 one seated F-18 C Hornets(finnish built)
And 7 two seated F-18 D Hornets which were flown here in 1995/96.
+ some 50 older Hawks as training planes built by those "limey snapperheads" as you like to refer to them <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
So there. We can build our own jet fighters and we build lots of other stuff too:
-fighters suits(snow/cold suits)
-fragment/bulletproof vest
-assault rifles
-mortars
-mines/explosives
-artillery/radar
-field hospitals
-roller truck (real name?)
-APC "PASI", used widely by UN peacekeeping forces
-variety of army trucks
-lots of naval radar, artillery & missile ships
+Finlands unique unit: Dread <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Missiles/tanks are what we have to import most. Yes, we use some crappy T-72 though we are replacing them with newer German built Leopard 2's, which are IIRC about as old as the Abrams you use in Iraq. Though the main point is that we just try to get along with Russia and in case s**t hits the fan, we have something to keep them ruskies at bay. We are not trying to get the greatest army in the history of mankind. And I rule with slingshot. I'm not even kidding <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If some crazed dictator takes control of Saudi Arabia and says 'no more oil!', the US simply starts pumping out of Alaska. You on the other hand, need to go in there and take charge, or fall back into the dark ages. A rather improbable scenario I realise, but like I said before, no one ever lost a war by being too prepared.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm probably all hippymood now that it's Christmas and all but I don't think "we don't want to give you oil" is reason enough to invade. There's still plenty of oil in the sea and even more in Russia which is more than happy to trade. However, in the end, I have to agree that it's probably good to have a sturdy army controlled by one leader protecting EU. To get this stone rolling again: before we can establish that one army, we need to separate from NATO completely. I think that's the biggest obstacle in EU-nations way. The other big obstacle is that there is no real need to integrate Europe in to EU. I believe that common enemy would be in need to get everyone working together, so I'm looking(not hoping) at Russia and watching if the new CCCP/USSR happens anytime soon.
You are right, I am wrong. I shall learn Finnish so that I do not have to rely on your self-mistranslated websites ever again. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The rest of your point is correct, and you should create a free-standing EU army if you want to be a player. If only to provide me endless amusement regarding the 10-year debate of what language will the standard, nevermind the caliber of your tank rounds. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually that's not a bad idea at all. You would be in a key position when we take over the world with our foul-tempered hedgies <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The rest of your point is correct, and you should create a free-standing EU army if you want to be a player. If only to provide me endless amusement regarding the 10-year debate of what language will the standard, nevermind the caliber of your tank rounds. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The language debate actually will be very amusing, as everyone knows english would be the wisest solution but do you think French are going to give up? Or Germans? Or Italians? Currently translating EVERY piece of paper in to EVERY language doesn't sound very effecient to me. Though I would be fine with 3 official languages: English, German and French. Or make a compromise and settle for Finnish <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Spellingz0r and I try to bork the quotes as they for some mysterious reason actually work now.
Edit: Spellingz0r and I try to bork the quotes as they for some mysterious reason actually work now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd probably have to go strictly volunteer also, and ditch the draft. Not only would you get the better quality of troops necessary to make a truly professional force, but I'm pretty sure some Normandy french farmer draftee is not going to speak German OR English.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><i>Although I bet they'd know the right words for 'I surrendor'. Oh come on, you didn't really expect me to pass over an easy one like that, did you?!?!</i></span>
The language barrier was a HUGE problem in the Soviet Army all during its lifespan. They used Russian-speaking officers who often could not understand a word their Siberian/Uzbek/Tajak/etc troops were saying. Makes it hard to comprehend a returning patrol leader's report of enemy tanks over the ridge - no one wants to play charades in a fighting hole. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't think there's any problems with the volunteer part. If I'm not completely mistaken, that's the way it works in USA and EU countries(soon) will have as much population as USA and more.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><i>Although I bet they'd know the right words for 'I surrendor'. Oh come on, you didn't really expect me to pass over an easy one like that, did you?!?!</i></span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right, there's no need for logic to back up all the cheap shots Yanks and French take at each other. You must have some spontaneously replicating anti-French/USA code in your DNA <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The Russians have had a US-sized or larger population for a hundred years but they always have trouble getting anyone into uniform without a draft-based on their reputation for mistreatment, poor conditions, low morale, low pay, etc. Your own country relies on a draft mainly because they cannot get enough volunteers in peacetime, I'll reckon, and it only has ~40,000 troops (10,000 actual combat-ready) out of ~5,000,000 people, right?
As for French/American cheap shots, we learned it from our former colonial masters, themselves no great friends of the French for a millenia; blame the English. It's all in good fun though, otherwise we wouldn't have helped each other so much over the decades...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The ultimate goal of military defence is to take pre-emptive action against attempts to subjugate Finland or to make use of her territory. <a href='http://www2.mil.fi/maavoimat/maavoimat/index_en.dsp' target='_blank'>http://www2.mil.fi/maavoimat/maavoimat/index_en.dsp</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG YOU ARE WARMONGERS WITHOUT LEGAL BASIS FOR YOUR ACTIONS!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Heh heh.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The ultimate goal of military defence is to take pre-emptive action against attempts to subjugate Finland or to make use of her territory. <a href='http://www2.mil.fi/maavoimat/maavoimat/index_en.dsp' target='_blank'>http://www2.mil.fi/maavoimat/maavoimat/index_en.dsp</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG YOU ARE WARMONGERS WITHOUT LEGAL BASIS FOR YOUR ACTIONS!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Heh heh. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Har <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> That's pretty good one, although the whole quote goes:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Fundamental objective of national military defence is to make even contemplating the subjugation of Finland or the exploitation of its territory <b>an unprofitable venture from the start.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your own country relies on a draft mainly because they cannot get enough volunteers in peacetime, I'll reckon, and it only has ~40,000 troops (10,000 actual combat-ready) out of ~5,000,000 people, right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's about correct. Some 40 000 standing forces and 500 000 men and women who have gone through armed training. We have a serious need for the draft with the neighbour we have. It's all part of the plan to pre-emptively prevent enemy from attacking. Currently Russia knows it costs too much to take over Finland compared to the gain, but we never know how they calculate the gain. It wouldn't be the first time for them to want bumper-zones on the border of Russia and western Europe. Currently the pressure isn't so bad but you never know what happens. So it's better to be prepared by drafting people.
Ummm...what were we talking about? EU constitution or Finlands defense plans? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have no idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Currently Russia knows it costs too much to take over Finland compared to the gain, but we never know how they calculate the gain.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I sincerely doubt that Finland's 1 brigade of armor would give even a paper tiger like Russia more than a few days fight. This is not 1939 anymore.
The point is that we have lots and lots of forests and lakes. That basically means you either drive through the roads or you walk all the way, and our roads on the east-side of the country are extremely easy to mine/block. Hence it all boils down to running in circles in our vast forrests and trying to keep their air-force at bay.
I'm sure we couldn't hold back if Russia would come at us and really try, however we are making sure that they still suffer enough casualties to not attack us for light reasons. Light reason being that Puting likes reindeers. Of course if they want a bumper-zone, we're gone. Which is why we need a strong EUF to back us up. And we are back on topic! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now if we get a real hardliner with balls of steel as next Russias president and USA gets a president that concentrates on domestic policy, all EU countries get scared sh**les and suddenly everyone has a need to form one powerful army and be all buddies so we don't need to change our pants every times something suprising happens.
That would do some serious good on this EU thing.
You do remember that Iraq placed rougly 1 million mines in front of Kuwait in 1990, which gave the Marines that went in that way almost a one-hour delay? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now if we get a real hardliner with balls of steel as next Russias president and USA gets a president that concentrates on domestic policy, all EU countries get scared sh**les and suddenly everyone has a need to form one powerful army and be all buddies so we don't need to change our pants every times something suprising happens.
That would do some serious good on this EU thing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow on-topic! This, my friend, is a very, very , very real possibility. The Democratic front-runner here right now is a fellow name Howard Dean. He is a pretty strict isolationist and is in no way intereted in fighting terrorism, dictatorships, or leaving the country's borders at all. If he gets in you can forget about any US military aid for 4 years unless the Russkies start driving for France. Unfortunately for you, this EU army decision really should have been made about 10 years ago, when your constitution should have been written.
You do remember that Iraq placed rougly 1 million mines in front of Kuwait in 1990, which gave the Marines that went in that way almost a one-hour delay? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then again, it's not very easy to place mines very tactically when there's 1tree/100 square kilometers. I can draw you a picture of 1 million mines placed on desert and 1 million mines placed on a road surrounded by forest. It's slightly more effecient that way <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow on-topic! This, my friend, is a very, very , very real possibility. The Democratic front-runner here right now is a fellow name Howard Dean. He is a pretty strict isolationist and is in no way intereted in fighting terrorism, dictatorships, or leaving the country's borders at all. If he gets in you can forget about any US military aid for 4 years unless the Russkies start driving for France. Unfortunately for you, this EU army decision really should have been made about 10 years ago, when your constitution should have been written.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How's that? Of course this stuff takes some time but then I guess we just have to hope that the next Russian president is bada** enough to make scary threats but does so only to gain peoples votes. Example: "Russia is teh ownz0r and soon we will kick some serious butt in da west-side and we will be da mad-pimpin' scary gansta...and everyone will have bread and work too."
It's not like Russia will attack THAT surprisingly. It will take years and years for them to slide in to totalitarian dictatorship that wants to rule the world. In that time, hopefully, we can pull our act together and form a better army than Russia has. Even though we have dropped behind in war technology because there hasn't been actual need, we(European countries, excluding east-europe) are still scientifically ahead of Russia. It shouldn't be so hard to make an army strong enough to defend from the immediate danger.
Edit: Bad-arse is teh banz0r word.
Gosh, when are you going to spend some time in the service and learn a little abit about such things, Dread Zepplin! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> The minefield density is entirely irrelevant these days. You simply use a clearing charge fired off the top of an engineers vehicle. It trails a cable of det-cord and RDX charges a few hundred feet behind it. You set if off and a path about 10 meters wide and 100 meters long is mine-free. Total time to clear field - 10 seconds. Mines are no longer a serious weapon in warfare anymore against a modern force.
And sorry, did I say 1 million? I meant <a href='http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/cement_factory_ii/cement_factory_ii_tabe.htm' target='_blank'>3.5 million</a>. Side note - you better hope they invade before 2006, as you will <a href='http://www.icbl.org/lm/2003/finland.html' target='_blank'>not have any AP mines after that</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It will take years and years for them to slide in to totalitarian dictatorship that wants to rule the world<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeeaahhh, <a href='http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,1102929,00.html' target='_blank'>years and years</a>. Oops, or maybe not!
Be patient. 6 months and you wont hear a word from me for some time. Your personal sabbath <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mines are no longer a serious weapon in warfare anymore against a modern force.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then we hope ruskies don't have one <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Side note - you better hope they invade before 2006, as you will <a href='http://www.icbl.org/lm/2003/finland.html' target='_blank'>not have any AP mines after that</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holy crap! I thought they were only talking about it and not doing anything, like they usually act but they are actually going to do it? And for some lame humanitarian reasons I bet <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Boohoo, the poor invader gets his lower body blown off. Bah I tell you. Luckily we can still use AT mines. I'm not so worried about enemy soldiers as I'm about enemy vehicles.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finland remains the only country in the European Union (EU) that has not signed, ratified or acceded to the Mine Ban Treaty<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hell, it's easy for French and Italians to condemn the 'inhuman' mines when they are there cozily behind the whole eastern Europe. Wankers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeeaahhh, years and years. Oops, or maybe not!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They might have rigged elections and slight feeling of dictatorship, but it's still not totalitarian and at least they haven't said they want to invade the Europe <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Kicked the quotes right.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They might have rigged elections and slight feeling of dictatorship, but it's still not totalitarian and at least they haven't said they want to invade the Europe <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh huh...
<i>My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time...
Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."
-Neville Chamberlain
"Peace for Our Time," September 30, 1938
</i>
Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."
-Neville Chamberlain
"Peace for Our Time," September 30, 1938
</i> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5 points. I don't know what else to say. However I hope you're wrong about them Russians...
...and if I still know you after say, four years, and I'm not under Russian dictatorship, I'm going to rub this all around your face. You were either wrong about Russia becoming hostile towards Europe, EU force succeeding or Finlands defense capabilities, but if I'm still sitting infront of my computer, I'm totally going to pour this stuff on you. And that all as a friend <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Ooooooh! Looky looky! Spooge and eggmac are here. Maybe they will get this back on tracks. I'm all out of ideas so maybe they have some refreshing opinion to throw in <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
And I'm glad if someone else is wrong about the return of...uhh...it would be great if Russia wouldn't become a totalitarian state. The signs are strong but there's still plenty of hope. Maybe I have a biased view because if I'm wrong, it could mean that my country will be overrun by ruskies within a decade. We'll see what happens but it seems to be so, that the fate of Russia and USA affect a lot what happens to EU.
Edit: I can't spell. Not at 1:30.