Suprised Of No New Years Terrorism?
Jammer
Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 728Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 728Members, Constellation
in Discussions
Is anyone else suprised there wasn't a terrorist attack on New Years Eve in the US? I am. I thought for sure something would go down. If the Terror warning wasn't politically motivated (Keep terrorism on the 2004 Election Agenda), I'm very impressed. Assuming there were legitimate signs of an attack, the government did a stellar job preventing an attack. Helicopter support over NYC, No-Fly of major cities, and the pre-Christmas Air-France raid. Did the government actually accomplish something?
Again, this is assuming that that the warnings were legitimate and not political. I think they were legit, although the more the government hypes terrorist attacks, the better Bush looks. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Again, this is assuming that that the warnings were legitimate and not political. I think they were legit, although the more the government hypes terrorist attacks, the better Bush looks. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
"OMG! S4ved, your a$$ would hav been 0wned!"
What?
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And just because the terror defense hasn't done anything doesn't mean it hasn't stopped terror. I'd assume most terrorists bright enough to try to circumvent the defense instead of doing what they'd do anyway. I don't think this situation happens often:
"Ok, we'll deliver the bomb by commercial airplane..."
"Hey boss, the Americans screen their airplane cargo now."
"Oh, well... nevermind that, let's just assume that it gets through anyway like it would before."
"Sure thing, boss. Should I coat the bag in metal?"
"Of course. Now where was I?..."
But what do I know, it might. And certainly it would be exciting and nice to see that our defense program is actually stopping live terror threats, but what'rya gonna do? Tell them "Hey terrorists! Attack us so we can stop you already!!" :\... Noe noe, if you think this is what we should do... get out.
no more pesky tigers, and thats a promise! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
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And just because the terror defense hasn't done anything doesn't mean it hasn't stopped terror. I'd assume most terrorists bright enough to try to circumvent the defense instead of doing what they'd do anyway. I don't think this situation happens often:
"Ok, we'll deliver the bomb by commercial airplane..."
"Hey boss, the Americans screen their airplane cargo now."
"Oh, well... nevermind that, let's just assume that it gets through anyway like it would before."
"Sure thing, boss. Should I coat the bag in metal?"
"Of course. Now where was I?..."
But what do I know, it might. And certainly it would be exciting and nice to see that our defense program is actually stopping live terror threats, but what'rya gonna do? Tell them "Hey terrorists! Attack us so we can stop you already!!" :\... Noe noe, if you think this is what we should do... get out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I was ever a terrorist bent on destroying lots of crap in as little time as possible, it'd be madness. I mean, good god, if you wanted to kill a ton of Americans just pack a cooler with neurotoxin and non-incendiary chemical propellant and bring it to a football game... good thing terrorists are lazy SOBs, right? Hell I'm sure if they asked North Korea would lend them a nuke.
Nothing off topic here kids....
Nothing to see here kids...
It's just a jewber h4xor, lets move along, it's only fun for the first 5 seconds...
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I still question how either of those things could come about. Firstly, in the US, you'd need to radically modify the constitution to allow for despotic rule. Thus you'd need the support of a huge slice of Congress and the Senate, plus probably the Supreme Court as well. The likelihood of those man and woman openly supporting a despotic ruler must be close to zero. But even if, for the sake of arguement, a despotic ruler did manage to take over the US from within (and from without would be insanely difficult), he still has to contend with the US army, navy and airforce. Those guys arn't likely to support a despotic ruler. Yet lets go even further and imagine that the despot gets the military on his side.
What are the citizens going to do? Seriously. Shotguns and pistols vs modern battle tanks and fighter aircraft?! That's a battle that could never, ever be won in today's world. Sure, back in 1800 when the main source of US military power was civilian militias then yeah, the people might be able to do something. But not now. The best you could do would be small-scale guerilla fighting. Clinging to the idea that only you, the people, are the only preventing the evil men in Washington from taking over and installing King Bush I is just ludicrous. The people you put in office have no desire to become despots and the very government system they are in prevents them from doing so anyway!
But all that aside, why do people in the US distrust their own government so much? You fought a war to gain the right to choose your own government, and not only do half of you not vote, but you seem to be in constant fear of the very people you put into office turning around and "oppressing" you all! Tell me, if you really think they're going to turn on you, why did you elect them?
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I still question how either of those things could come about. Firstly, in the US, you'd need to radically modify the constitution to allow for despotic rule. Thus you'd need the support of a huge slice of Congress and the Senate, plus probably the Supreme Court as well. The likelihood of those man and woman openly supporting a despotic ruler must be close to zero. But even if, for the sake of arguement, a despotic ruler did manage to take over the US from within (and from without would be insanely difficult), he still has to contend with the US army, navy and airforce. Those guys arn't likely to support a despotic ruler. Yet lets go even further and imagine that the despot gets the military on his side.
What are the citizens going to do? Seriously. Shotguns and pistols vs modern battle tanks and fighter aircraft?! That's a battle that could never, ever be won in today's world. Sure, back in 1800 when the main source of US military power was civilian militias then yeah, the people might be able to do something. But not now. The best you could do would be small-scale guerilla fighting. Clinging to the idea that only you, the people, are the only preventing the evil men in Washington from taking over and installing King Bush I is just ludicrous. The people you put in office have no desire to become despots and the very government system they are in prevents them from doing so anyway!
But all that aside, why do people in the US distrust their own government so much? You fought a war to gain the right to choose your own government, and not only do half of you not vote, but you seem to be in constant fear of the very people you put into office turning around and "oppressing" you all! Tell me, if you really think they're going to turn on you, why did you elect them? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, you are terribly wrong, if the entire citenzery decided to shake off the government like a bunch of fleas, there is NOTHING, and I mean <b>NOTHING</b> our government could do to stop us.
First, you must take into account that our military is citenzery, all voluntary.
Next, it is the US citizens that support the government and the military... If we just decide to destroy what we are keeping alive then the government might as well as hit f4, there is no way they can support the military with no taxes.
I'm suprised that most people don't see this, but America's greatest enemy always has been and always will be itself.
America created itself out of nessesity, and will probably destroy itself out of nessesity.
The military would slaughter us at first in mass numbers, but it's only a matter of time before it all colapses in on itself. And yes, guns make it all possible.
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I still question how either of those things could come about. Firstly, in the US, you'd need to radically modify the constitution to allow for despotic rule. Thus you'd need the support of a huge slice of Congress and the Senate, plus probably the Supreme Court as well. The likelihood of those man and woman openly supporting a despotic ruler must be close to zero. But even if, for the sake of arguement, a despotic ruler did manage to take over the US from within (and from without would be insanely difficult), he still has to contend with the US army, navy and airforce. Those guys arn't likely to support a despotic ruler. Yet lets go even further and imagine that the despot gets the military on his side.
What are the citizens going to do? Seriously. Shotguns and pistols vs modern battle tanks and fighter aircraft?! That's a battle that could never, ever be won in today's world. Sure, back in 1800 when the main source of US military power was civilian militias then yeah, the people might be able to do something. But not now. The best you could do would be small-scale guerilla fighting. Clinging to the idea that only you, the people, are the only preventing the evil men in Washington from taking over and installing King Bush I is just ludicrous. The people you put in office have no desire to become despots and the very government system they are in prevents them from doing so anyway!
But all that aside, why do people in the US distrust their own government so much? You fought a war to gain the right to choose your own government, and not only do half of you not vote, but you seem to be in constant fear of the very people you put into office turning around and "oppressing" you all! Tell me, if you really think they're going to turn on you, why did you elect them?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If, lets say, the military did turn on it's own people, and the people rose up against the military, and every american citizen were to attack the military and eventually be killed (face it, shotguns have slim chance vs tanks, as you said), then what would there be left to rule? What would the point of taking over a country only to kill all of your people be? Also, I'm sure a different super power, such as the UK would step in and tell the US "No, no, this isn't right what you're doing".
Back on topic (As this seems to be turning into a gun-control thread)...
I personally don't think that terrorists would attack the country when they <i>most expect it</i>. What would the point of that be? You would have to multiply the effort to get a large scale attack to become successful if you were to, say, fly a plane into times square during the ball drop. However, like what happened on 9/11/01, the terrorists will hit us when we least likely suspect an attack to happen.
<i>So what if we keep our terror alert high, and keep all these precautions active year-round, 24/7/365?</i>
The country would literally be like a jail. You would be screened left and right getting on and off of airplanes, you would be screened getting into a mediocre sized event, and it just wouldn't feel like a "free" country any more. It's win-win for the terrorists that way. Either we put our guard down, and allow the possibility of another major strike, or we keep our guard up, and lose the feeling of freedom.
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So this is the same government with a standing army with over 1.5 million members? Plus 25,000 odd nukes, the most advanced military hardware in the world and intelligence gathering services that can monitor 250,000,000 people?
Yeah, I can see how a bunch of untrained, undiciplined, unco-ordinated citizens with handguns are going to take that on. That's only if, of course, the military sides with the despots, something which is just about completely impossible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Next, it is the US citizens that support the government and the military... If we just decide to destroy what we are keeping alive then the government might as well as hit f4, there is no way they can support the military with no taxes.
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Unfortunatly that works both ways. The government also provides services such as police forces and makes sure that services like water and electricity are provided. Say King Bush 1st's subjects in Los Angeles decide to stop paying taxes. Well the government-controlled police are sent in. Electricty, food and water are cut off from the city. Military roadblocks are set up that prevent anyone from leaving. Intelligance officers determine the leaders of the resistance and send in airstrikes to take them out. Meanwhile the whole city is starving and freezing to death. Civil order has completely broken down, and gangs of armed thugs roam the streets pillaging the few remaining supplies. Eventually the few remaining citizens give in and submit to the government's authority. Or they die.
And the government can suppliment it's forces other ways. A despotic government could seize every industry in America and use them to fuel it's economy. Regardless of that though, the government would still be able, by force and coersion, to extract taxes from a percentage of the populace. Faced with an option between death and forking over some dough to a despotic government, a lot of people are going to chose life. The government might not be popular, but they'd be able to do what they wanted.
I am going to quote that in my sig maybe...
Yes, were all a bunch of gun toting hippies that watch to much X-files. That is the most rediculous generalization Ive ever heard.
One man against one Marine will never win, but 20 men wielding 20 shotguns and/or pistols will make that marine think twice before touching his weapon. For every military soldier that falls, his weapons ammo and equipment fall to the enemy. A single man mightnt be able to destroy a tank with conventional firepower alone but with smart thinking, a home made hand grenade (or one scavenged) can be thrown in from the top.
The "Civilian" defense force has the advantage of numbers. The military has power, might and coordination. With a little smart thinking, the civilian defense force could supplant any despot, although the casualties would be horrendous and would leave the country devastated and open to attack.
I think we should take these military scenarios to another thread.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=58104' target='_blank'>Clicky Linky Thingy</a>
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I don't think all Americans are like that. It's just that I have encountered quite a lot of Americans who believe that their government really is going to screw them over. I've never been able to figure out exactly why anyone thinks this way.
I went to Times Square in 1999/2000 and they were expecting the works since it was the millenium. Y2k, terrorism, the 2nd coming of christ etc.
Heck, they even caught a guy trying to sneak in from Canada with explosives in his car. Even though it was pre 9-11 there were a lot of people who thought I was insane going to New York for New Years.
And nothing happened.
Same thing this New Years.
Assuming the entire population of America is capable of fighting and all those capable are willing to fight. Revolutionaries are usually outnumbered.
Willing to Fight - 5:1
Able to Fight - 2:1 or less
Guess I should have elaborated on that, either way, thats in another thread now.
"OMG! S4ved, your a$$ would hav been 0wned!" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope... You tell the world and then you lose a possible source of viable intelligence.
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I don't think all Americans are like that. It's just that I have encountered quite a lot of Americans who believe that their government really is going to screw them over. I've never been able to figure out exactly why anyone thinks this way. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they are students of history, and have learned of all the times that they should have been distrustful of their government and its actions. <i>Not</i> being distrustful is the way to get screwed over. A democracy only works as long as representation works - hence why Ryo and I chatted all about the loss of Australian democracy when their UK Governer General took over and basically dissolved a duly-elected parliament in 1975. We reserve the right as American's to remove our government through civil (and failing that, armed) methods, and have done so on several occasions. The last time sometime tried pulling a version of the "Gough Whitlam affair" on us, we responded with the American Revolution.
As for all the arguments that 'American citizens could never fight the modern US Army', that simply shows ignorance of logistics, manpower, the all-volunteer armed forces, the geography of the United States and its urbanization and communications, and a host of other things. The US Army would not stand a chance.
Many of us understand that the majority of us are in the american consumer class. The businesses want to work us, the sellers want to rip us off, and the government wants to tax and control us. It's all the better if we go through the vicious circle in blissful ignorance living as stress free as possible so they can get the most out of us before we become non-contributing members of society and the government switches fron the "taxing income strategy" to the "baiting us with social security to get a vote strategy" so they can stay in office and reap the benefits as our children and children's children are continually ripped off and forced to stay in this Alcatrazesque class system that is so well orchestrated by all sides.
But that's for another rant.
And yes, I agree. The American government would not stand a chance against a very angry American public....not many things could.