I'm As Biased As Biased Gets.
Marik_Steele
To rule in hell... Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9466Members
To rule in hell... Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9466Members
<div class="IPBDescription">An autobiography/why I'm biased thread</div> I'm one of those hard-to-find people more than willing to admit that I'm as biased as biased gets when it comes to George W. Bush and other various "stuff." I'm anti-war unless in self defense (example: "using 2 nukes on Japan" was an <i>understandable</i> choice, but still overreacting in my book). I'm not a vegetarian, but will go for equivalent organic meats, fruits, etc. if given the choice; as a Matrix fan I enjoyed the parody "<a href='http://www.themeatrix.com/' target='_blank'>The Meatrix</a>" and now have the opinion that factory farms = bad. I waver between pro-life and pro-choice all the time.
Most significantly, I fill myself up with stuff that I will readily admit is anti-bush propaganda: Neither of my parents voted for Bush. I read the homepage/blog of <a href='http://www.geisswerks.com/ryan/index.html' target='_blank'>Ryan Geiss </a>, creator of some of my favorite Winamp plugins, and supporter of...well, read it yourself, it's fairly easy to see what stuff he likes and doesn't like in the "what else is new," "useful facts and knowledge," "renewable energy," and "legislative wish list" sections. I've seen, laughed at, and mostly agreed with Michael Moore's movies and books even while knowing that he's notorious for skillfully manipulating facts. I enjoy listening to National Public Radio, but I've noticed that the news coming from my local public radio stations is/has become increasingly anti-Bush. [edit]In general, so far I consider George Bush to have been unfairly elected, and I don't have high respect his intelligence level.[/edit]
I think all of this can be summed up with the following: I haven't heard of any people on the other side of the spectrum who try to put as much humor or eloquent speech into their works. I know I'm missing out on something, show me what it is. I know that in these Discussion forums we've got plenty of supporters of Bush, his foreign/economic policies, and so on. There's got to be some reason why you think the way you do, so show me what it is that keeps you so interested in your side of the fence.
Most significantly, I fill myself up with stuff that I will readily admit is anti-bush propaganda: Neither of my parents voted for Bush. I read the homepage/blog of <a href='http://www.geisswerks.com/ryan/index.html' target='_blank'>Ryan Geiss </a>, creator of some of my favorite Winamp plugins, and supporter of...well, read it yourself, it's fairly easy to see what stuff he likes and doesn't like in the "what else is new," "useful facts and knowledge," "renewable energy," and "legislative wish list" sections. I've seen, laughed at, and mostly agreed with Michael Moore's movies and books even while knowing that he's notorious for skillfully manipulating facts. I enjoy listening to National Public Radio, but I've noticed that the news coming from my local public radio stations is/has become increasingly anti-Bush. [edit]In general, so far I consider George Bush to have been unfairly elected, and I don't have high respect his intelligence level.[/edit]
I think all of this can be summed up with the following: I haven't heard of any people on the other side of the spectrum who try to put as much humor or eloquent speech into their works. I know I'm missing out on something, show me what it is. I know that in these Discussion forums we've got plenty of supporters of Bush, his foreign/economic policies, and so on. There's got to be some reason why you think the way you do, so show me what it is that keeps you so interested in your side of the fence.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Very simply, I can't tell you why I'm on one side of the fence because I don't like political partisan and tend to try not to draw lines on party names. I can try and tell you why I'm not on either side though...
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking for here. Please give some examples.
As for the rest, I'm no Bush Bandwagon Junky and his most recent stunts aimed at gaining votes in the next election are really pushing me away from the ballot box for next fall but for me, the alternative is too much for my stomach to handle.
Maybe a place to start would be trying to look at specific policy actions and Presidential decisions on a case by case basis and not looking at the entire package all the time. Nobody is as bad as everybody thinks they are.
Take Nixon for example: Nixon has been the butt of jokes and snides ever since he was run out of office. He was absolutely despised by the hippies. But Nixon has been credited with many of the Left's key issues of today.
<ul>
<li>Affirmative Action
<li>National Environmental Policy Act
<li>Strategic Arms Limitation Agreement with USSR
<li>26th Amendment
<li>Greatly improved relations with China including getting them added to the UN
<li>The reduction and eventual end to the Vietnam War
</ul>
Just a handful of Nixon's policies and decisions. Of course, we cannot forget the bad. And there was plenty of it. But looking at the whole inspite of the specific isn't very fair.
I was brought up in a pretty liberal household. My parents had both been "hippies", though in today's PC speak that could be rephrased as "alternative lifestyle". They'd both lived in agriculural communes and both are still today quite spiritual people, though not exactly religious. For example:
My stance on abortion comes from this: both my parents support the idea of choice. I happen to support this as well, despite the Catholic Church trying to ram an alternate view down my throat for 12 years.
My stance on politics can be probably traced to the liberal roots of my parents, though it goes further than that. Here at least, left wing governments are far more likely to help out low income earners and students. That's my family right there. If we were rich and running big businesses I'd probably vote for a right wing party.
Religion was something that I was sort of forced into when I was young. I ended up going to a Catholic primary and high school, simply because they offered better education than the public schools and my parents wanted to best possible education I could get. Eventually I completly discarded my Christian faith after I came to the realisation that it was completely illogical, and that science offered me far better explainations for the world.
But why do I come in here and argue such boiling hot topics with right wing individuals? I love to debate. When I'm at uni, too often I can only find left wing people to talk to, which is fun, but it's not really debating: "Hey I hate the war in Iraq." "Me too" "Yeah right on". Here, on the NS forums, I can find the kind of people with whom I can really get a roaring debate going: moderate conservatives like Monse and Marine01, fellow left wingers like Nemesis and Dread, and right wingers such as Spooge and Jammer. All in a pleasent atmosphere with fantastic mods acting as unbiased referees ensuring that this forum doesn't turn into WWIII. It's a great place for active discussion and I believe it is an absolute tribute to the NS community that we can actually debate very hot topics without degrading into mud slinging and flaming.
Wavering is a good sign of actual thinking going on, so you're definately getting somewhere.
Here's my advice: pick a couple of battles that are worth fighting at any one time. Get really knowledgable on the subject, from both sides. Ponder. Rinse and repeat. Good information + thinking is going to get you at least close to the right answer. Getting upset over a topic, on the other hand, makes it pretty much impossible to correctly weigh the evidence.
Other than your keys issues, just don't worry about it. Come up with a somewhat informed opinion, and keep an open mind so that if someone comes along with a better arguement than you, you don't miss out of a free ride closer to the real answer.
In the case of pro-life vs pro-choice, both sides pretty much suck, so don't worry about it. Unless you're a mother, it's pretty much impossible to be informed, so a lot of flak is flying on both ends.
Me? I'm an armchair philosopher. I actually enjoy picking apart my beliefs to figure out if there's any truth in there. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Instead of the usual liberal trash which plauges mainstream America, he would like to hear the other side.
I've got bad news for you though Marik, nowhere will you find anyone readily praising Bush. Almost all of the Conservative sites I frequent critize bush, and critize him often. The same goes for my radio shows I listen to.
You have to understand, the conservative bunch are just a bunch of people who fully believe in the constitution, and less federal interferance with our lives. If a canadiate comes along and says he will commit along these lines, then indeed the conservatives will vote for him. But this does not mean we will just praise his arse. We can be just as harsh, but generally less outspoken.
I do believe you want to get away from the liberal mantra, so here I go:
<a href='http://www.mrc.org' target='_blank'>www.mrc.org - Great site, not as baised as you may at first think...</a>
<a href='http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/hentoff1.asp' target='_blank'>This is one Liberal I really like, Nat Hentoff, the last honest liberal</a>
For radio, I like to listen to 96.9 FM talk in New England. I have no idea what 96.9 is in your area, but if you ever head up to new england area turn it to that station.
<a href='http://www.lauraingraham.com/public/about/links/' target='_blank'>A lot of links here, plus the main site itself is a conservative talk show host who's a woman, and a good looking one at that</a>
I too like to see the other side of the spectrum, that is how I came across good ole Nat Hentoff, that dude is the man.
Anyhow, I hope you enjoy!
<a href='http://www.kfi640.com/main.html' target='_blank'>Here.</a>
I do believe you want to get away from the liberal mantra, so here I go:
<a href='http://www.mrc.org' target='_blank'>www.mrc.org - Great site, not as baised as you may at first think...</a>
<a href='http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/hentoff1.asp' target='_blank'>This is one Liberal I really like, Nat Hentoff, the last honest liberal</a>
For radio, I like to listen to 96.9 FM talk in New England. I have no idea what 96.9 is in your area, but if you ever head up to new england area turn it to that station.
<a href='http://www.lauraingraham.com/public/about/links/' target='_blank'>A lot of links here, plus the main site itself is a conservative talk show host who's a woman, and a good looking one at that</a>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the laugh, Forlorn . . . MRC is unbiased. <i>Classic</i>!
The only reason I listen to 96.9 is Jay Severin. I rarely agree with him on political subjects, but he's very intelligent and entertaining.
I punch them...hard. over and over. until they decide to throw one back.
Thats anti-war logic for you.
But what do I know im a dumb redneck right wing warmonger. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--"on+ the MRC.org, website"--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ("on @ the MRC.org, website")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The most recent ASNE study surveyed 1,037 newspaper reporters found 61 percent identified themselves as/leaning "liberal/Democratic" compared to only 15 percent who identified themselves as/leaning "conservative/Republican<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does anybody else see the corellation between education and your party alignment here? Hah! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Instead of the usual liberal trash which plauges mainstream America, he would like to hear the other side.
You have to understand, the conservative bunch are just a bunch of people who fully believe in the constitution, and less federal interferance with our lives.
I do believe you want to get away from the liberal mantra
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marik, asking for help about avoiding bias from a group of people who categorize any and all points of debate, all opinions and even themselves into 1 of 2 political categories probably isnt the brightest of ideas :)
We're still on the first page and the thread has already turned into a black vs. white slagging match with posters lumped into teams and rampant accusations of media hax. If you're going to look objectively at your own beliefs, you have to drop the entire right vs. left comedy act and take each issue as it comes, in singular. Otherwise you'll end up with a forlorn-level of debating, where each viewpoint is first categorised as a liberal/conservative viewpoint, and then addressed by attacking an entire political label.
Topic: "I don't support the war on iraq"
Rebuttal: "Yea? Well an MRC review of the last six months of 2003 found that the 10 Democratic presidential candidates were given 4 hours of airtime on the network morning shows and were frequently asked to articulate their disagreements with President Bush. Four years earlier, the 8 Republicans running for president received considerably less airtime and were almost never asked about President Clinton or Al Gore."
Hurrah for American politics!
Want interesting and unbiased commentary on issues? Try looking for sites that don't use the words 'liberal' or 'conservative' every other sentance. I'd link to maddox, but you requested 'elequant' discussion, and maddox is about as elequant as a sledge hammer -However, wether supporting or opposing my own viewpoints of an issue, he is still consistantly funny.
As for intelligent discussion that praises Bush, i can't say i have ever seen any anywhere. Though the reasons may vary from person to person, he seems to have **** off everyone for one reason or another.
Are you laying out your beliefs and asking us to pick one and debate it? If so, I'd suggest starting a topic about any<i> one</i> and discussing it. Giving us a panopoly of beliefs and saying "why don't you agree?" seems almost flame-bait.
If, as Ryo seems to have interpreted, you were asking WHY we have come to hold the beliefs that we do, I'd hope everyone says "I've made an informed choice".
Of course, I could have misunderstood completely and be shooting off on a wild tangent.
I believe that it's sort of a neutral ground area where everyone explains what drives their beliefs. Not a discussion per say, but more a short "discussion autobiography". No need to follow standard discussion rules in here, just feel free to tell us a little bit about where you're coming from. It helps people understand each other and get beyond the facelessness of the intarweb.
<b>AND MY AUTOBIOGRAPHY IS MORE CORRECT THAN YOURS!!!!</b>
J/K , I can't help myself when I get in here.... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'll post my own stuff shortly. Stupid conference call...
I do believe you want to get away from the liberal mantra, so here I go:
<a href='http://www.mrc.org' target='_blank'>www.mrc.org - Great site, not as baised as you may at first think...</a>
<a href='http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/hentoff1.asp' target='_blank'>This is one Liberal I really like, Nat Hentoff, the last honest liberal</a>
For radio, I like to listen to 96.9 FM talk in New England. I have no idea what 96.9 is in your area, but if you ever head up to new england area turn it to that station.
<a href='http://www.lauraingraham.com/public/about/links/' target='_blank'>A lot of links here, plus the main site itself is a conservative talk show host who's a woman, and a good looking one at that</a>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the laugh, Forlorn . . . MRC is unbiased. <i>Classic</i>!
The only reason I listen to 96.9 is Jay Severin. I rarely agree with him on political subjects, but he's very intelligent and entertaining. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bathroom Monkey explaining himself...now that would be a classic!
Oh and by the way, Jay owns tbh, he's a tad finatical but I find myself agreeing with him more often than not
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->lol @ mrc being called unbiased. The whole goal of it is to "expose" leftist media. They don't seem to have any documentation of any news story being biased to the right.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, they do <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
But that is besides the fact, why does it matter that they do?
I mean, sure, you recongize that it's bias, so what does it matter? I mean do you overlook the fact that you are looking at <b>thousands</b> of instances of slants and spins on media that is spoon-fed to America?
To say it's all justified because supposedly there is as much conservative spin on the media as liberal spin... prove it.
Doesn't it seem odd that you see a site with a dedicated news staff pop up to combat 'liberal' reporting, and yet no sites to combat 'conservative' reporting?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We're still on the first page and the thread has already turned into a black vs. white slagging match with posters lumped into teams and rampant accusations of media hax. If you're going to look objectively at your own beliefs, you have to drop the entire right vs. left comedy act and take each issue as it comes, in singular. Otherwise you'll end up with a forlorn-level of debating, where each viewpoint is first categorised as a liberal/conservative viewpoint, and then addressed by attacking an entire political label.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
#1. While I don't find your distaste of political labels unusual, I hardly see why it's suddenly taboo to use them.
Using a term liberal and conservative should only be general indicators, nowhere do I indicate in any of my posts that I'm suddenly ready to slap on the labels and move on from there. However, when you are trying to adress a subject when the orginal poster uses terms such as 'liberal', then of course I'm going to respond along the same lines.
Nowhere in the subject did the orignal poster refer to any topic, but he did refer to a theme, and the theme was that would like a little insight onto the other side of the political spectrum.
Saying that using political labels is ignorant (or as you put it, forlorn-level) is no worse than saying using political labels is a bad thing, because you had no idea of how I was applying them. If you are going to jump on something as small as a label when you can't even understand the intent then perhaps you should rethink yourself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Topic: "I don't support the war on iraq"
Rebuttal: "Yea? Well an MRC review of the last six months of 2003 found that the 10 Democratic presidential candidates were given 4 hours of airtime on the network morning shows and were frequently asked to articulate their disagreements with President Bush. Four years earlier, the 8 Republicans running for president received considerably less airtime and were almost never asked about President Clinton or Al Gore."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Topic: What the hell are you talking about?
Rebuttal: <Awaiting TeoH's response here>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Want interesting and unbiased commentary on issues? Try looking for sites that don't use the words 'liberal' or 'conservative' every other sentance. I'd link to maddox, but you requested 'elequant' discussion, and maddox is about as elequant as a sledge hammer -However, wether supporting or opposing my own viewpoints of an issue, he is still consistantly funny.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everything can be baised if you put the right perspective on it, so there's no point in trying to avoid it. It's best to recongize that something <b>may be baised</b>, and then go ahead reading/watching whatever but keeping that comment in mind.
Really, douncoucing a political label is... absurd... while it cannot be trusted in it's entirenty, it most certainly can be taken as the generalization it is.
But of course, using the TeoH-level of thinking that we should simply "Assume that all generalizations are false" type thinking isn't going to get anyone anywhere.
Marik was talking about going headfirst into the other side's 'bais' (or whatever the hell you wish to call it), and I believe I gave him the appropirate response.
Remember, when you hear the term 'conservative' and 'liberal', you shouldn't immediately roll your eyes into your head and look away. This is a poor elitist view to carry...
Keep a level head, and learn to reconize the generalizations that each carry. When I hear liberal, I feel that the type of person I'm talking to will fall more often than not to one side than another. The same goes for conservative.
Of course, you take these generalizations with not a full heart, and this is why you should just go ahead on the topic, even if you feel you will disagree with them. You then learn a thing or two, and you also learn that 'conservative' and 'liberal' are just like any other adjectives, much like calling someone fat or in good shape. There is always more truth behind the words.
Of course TeoH probably did not understand how I regarded these such labels, but ah such is the expose on ignorance of life. It's quite humorous that TeoH labeled me as a 'forlorn-level' of debating when he himself fell down to the same level, as I'm immediately labeled as the type who labels. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Talk about hypocritical.
Also, one final note:
- Using political labels to judge institutions, rather than a people, is completely different in my oppinion and in most cases the full extent of the sterotype can be aplied. Like calling Bush's adminstration conservative - I would accept that statement exactly as the words imply.
I do believe you want to get away from the liberal mantra, so here I go:
<a href='http://www.mrc.org' target='_blank'>www.mrc.org - Great site, not as baised as you may at first think...</a>
<a href='http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/hentoff1.asp' target='_blank'>This is one Liberal I really like, Nat Hentoff, the last honest liberal</a>
For radio, I like to listen to 96.9 FM talk in New England. I have no idea what 96.9 is in your area, but if you ever head up to new england area turn it to that station.
<a href='http://www.lauraingraham.com/public/about/links/' target='_blank'>A lot of links here, plus the main site itself is a conservative talk show host who's a woman, and a good looking one at that</a>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the laugh, Forlorn . . . MRC is unbiased. <i>Classic</i>!
The only reason I listen to 96.9 is Jay Severin. I rarely agree with him on political subjects, but he's very intelligent and entertaining. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bathroom Monkey explaining himself...now that would be a classic!
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sigh. You already tried to flog the MRC as an unbiased source, and I explained myself,
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=53504&st=90' target='_blank'>here</a>.
Yes, thousands of examples of liberal bias. Sure, for many, they have to mangle quotes, mis-quote, quote a <i>quote</i> as the quoting author's actual words, take quotes out of context, and engineer studies where they compare apples to oranges, and just plain lie.
Tell you what-- I challenge you to find five <b>strong</b> examples where they condemn the 'conservative' bias in a media source. For my part, I will find five strong examples where they have been completely intellectually dishonest about quotes/facts that are supposed to demonstrate a 'liberal' bias. The thread-goers can pick the winner. Game?
And I honestly can't believe you're using the 'well, if there's a web site for it, it must be real!' defense. Speaking of:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Doesn't it seem odd that you see a site with a dedicated news staff pop up to combat 'liberal' reporting, and yet no sites to combat 'conservative' reporting?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quick question: Who funds them? Is it the general population, so angered about the 'liberal' media that they take their hard earned pocket to fund this site and its staff?
Nope. Funding comes courtesy of Richard Mellon Scaife-- you know, the ridiculously wealthy fanatical far right winger with an axe to grind? WHo gives <i>millions</i> of dollars per year to right wing groups? Trust me, it ain't exactly a ringing endorsement.
I believe that it's sort of a neutral ground area where everyone explains what drives their beliefs. Not a discussion per say, but more a short "discussion autobiography". No need to follow standard discussion rules in here, just feel free to tell us a little bit about where you're coming from. It helps people understand each other and get beyond the facelessness of the intarweb.
<b>AND MY AUTOBIOGRAPHY IS MORE CORRECT THAN YOURS!!!!</b>
J/K , I can't help myself when I get in here.... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'll post my own stuff shortly. Stupid conference call... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, sorry, was speaking to an infuriating customer at the time, I was at a fluffiness low.
I wish more people would hope to achive that kind of empathy.
all too often do people attempt to write off a side of an argument based on whos making it rather than the actual facts.
every side is worth examining every time.
there will never be a single truth which holds for every situation.
... or somthing
I do believe you want to get away from the liberal mantra, so here I go:
<a href='http://www.mrc.org' target='_blank'>www.mrc.org - Great site, not as baised as you may at first think...</a>
<a href='http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/hentoff1.asp' target='_blank'>This is one Liberal I really like, Nat Hentoff, the last honest liberal</a>
For radio, I like to listen to 96.9 FM talk in New England. I have no idea what 96.9 is in your area, but if you ever head up to new england area turn it to that station.
<a href='http://www.lauraingraham.com/public/about/links/' target='_blank'>A lot of links here, plus the main site itself is a conservative talk show host who's a woman, and a good looking one at that</a>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the laugh, Forlorn . . . MRC is unbiased. <i>Classic</i>!
The only reason I listen to 96.9 is Jay Severin. I rarely agree with him on political subjects, but he's very intelligent and entertaining. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bathroom Monkey explaining himself...now that would be a classic!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sigh. You already tried to flog the MRC as an unbiased source, and I explained myself,
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=53504&st=90' target='_blank'>here</a>.
Yes, thousands of examples of liberal bias. Sure, for many, they have to mangle quotes, mis-quote, quote a <i>quote</i> as the quoting author's actual words, take quotes out of context, and engineer studies where they compare apples to oranges, and just plain lie.
Tell you what-- I challenge you to find five <b>strong</b> examples where they condemn the 'conservative' bias in a media source. For my part, I will find five strong examples where they have been completely intellectually dishonest about quotes/facts that are supposed to demonstrate a 'liberal' bias. The thread-goers can pick the winner. Game?
And I honestly can't believe you're using the 'well, if there's a web site for it, it must be real!' defense. Speaking of:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Doesn't it seem odd that you see a site with a dedicated news staff pop up to combat 'liberal' reporting, and yet no sites to combat 'conservative' reporting?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quick question: Who funds them? Is it the general population, so angered about the 'liberal' media that they take their hard earned pocket to fund this site and its staff?
Nope. Funding comes courtesy of Richard Mellon Scaife-- you know, the ridiculously wealthy fanatical far right winger with an axe to grind? WHo gives <i>millions</i> of dollars per year to right wing groups? Trust me, it ain't exactly a ringing endorsement. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How can the quotes be out of context, when not only do they list their entire news source on the site, but they also post a link to it?
All mrc does is critize the institution of the media. Their title simply fits with the fact that yes, most of the crap on mainstream news <b>is</b> liberal. Who cares if this site is biased? It's doing that on PURPOSE, because that is it's GOAL! Their goal is to put the expose on the fact that reporters around the nation really are not doing their jobs of simply reporting - they throw in their oppinions and thoughts without you even knowing. They put a spin on everything and slowly change the attitude of America. Sites like mrc caught on to this, and have voiced their opposition to this by stating what is obviously extraneous stuff to news stories and pointing out bais.
I mean, really, a biased site on bias? Big deal. Also, if you check your ba
Anyhow, if you want to see more questioning on mrc, check <a href='http://www.mrc.org/biasbasics/welcome.asp#public' target='_blank'>here.</a>
And you don't have to provide five examples, one will do. Give me one example where a quote is completely out of context and I will do my best to defend it. Please try to keep it recent, going back into the 1990's I was 8-14 years old, and I wasn't too interested in present day politics to be honest.
I freely admit having tons of bias. To be biased is to be human, and to claim being unbiased is to be a liar or self-deceiver. It's impossible to avoid, and difficult to even mitigate. While I work hard at being as logical and analytical as I can be (as I consider myself getting wrapped up in emtional opinions to be a sign of personal weakness in my brain), I recognize that I'll always be taking 3 steps forward and 1 back (some might say 85 bajillion back, but they're my more liberal Discussion mates <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ). I lean towards a conservative bend in some ways (not the Republican party - just a conservative bend), and that I also lean liberally in others (I have a very conservative father and a very liberal mother - the result is FrankeNed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ).
More important though is that I want to have people understand that:
a) Many of my arguments are often based on devil's advocacy rather than a true support of the matter at hand. I find the debate stimulating, and everyone agreeing is about as exciting as a quilting circle. I try to mention it when possible, but I don't always remember.
b) My intention is never to change your mind to match my own. My goal is always to make you <b>THINK</b>, and not just follow the easy road of your society, your idiot teachers, your cliquey friends, your inadequate textbooks, and your cookie-cutter educational systems. If I can get a few people to at least <i>consider</i> the opposite sides of an issue, my work is done for that day.
side-note: And if anyone wants to dispute the idiot teacher comment, feel free. I went to a teachers college, and I can say that after 3 years and seeing thousands of soon-to-be teachers, odds are most of yours are complete imbeciles, ill-equipped to teach anyone anything. But that's something better left for a PM, not an offtopic dragging.
My main bias is probably only evident in scientific arguments. As has already been demonstrated, unless it is in a recognised peer reviewed journal, it just isn't worth anything. It was like that time when I was having that discussion as to if aspartame was poisonous. Not a pleasant memory.
My main bias is probably only evident in scientific arguments. As has already been demonstrated, unless it is in a recognised peer reviewed journal, it just isn't worth anything. It was like that time when I was having that discussion as to if aspartame was poisonous. Not a pleasant memory. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In other words, you have a bais and respect for the authorities, not nessesarly a bad thing.
Not to mention how you hint the discussion forum as a bunch of inconsiderate juvenile.
/end Devil's advocate <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Define the difference between "Open-mindedness" and "Cliches".
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not to mention how you hint the discussion forum as a bunch of inconsiderate juvenile.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He wasn't hinting and it is.
Back to Marik's original topic.
Why do I think the way I do? Just like Sirus I've tried multiple times to post a solid reply and I've deleted all of them. I guess for me it always comes back to two terms--Individualism and Self-Reliance. When I was growing up my family never discussed politics. At least not in my presence.
My mother was a soft spoken home-maker who babysat neighborhood kids for a few extra bucks. Both she and my aunt were adopted by a Syrian/Lebanese couple when they were only babies. They lived on a farm in very rural central Michigan. My mother's family lived off the land and the money my grandfather earned from a resturaunt he co-owned with a friend. My mother learned to cook and bake from scratch including a number of traditional Lebanese dishes and spent most of her free time doing light work on the farm. My grandfather died when my mother was in her late teens and her family moved to the city. She never learned any history of her biological parents.
My father grew up in a strict Dutch Christian Reformed community. His days were basically regimented by my grandmother during the day and instruction from my rigid Frisian grandfather. My grandfather died when my father was just entering his teens. My father became the only man in the family and therefore the bread-winner. Leisure time was limited and he worked every day after school and on weekends.
They married just out of high school and found a house toward the outter edge of the city. My father put up everything he had and purchased an auto parts supply store from a friend of my grandfather. They had 3 children almost exactly 3 years apart. A year before I was born they purchased a house in a rural area near the store. I was the fourth and last of the children so pretty much everything I did had been done before.
I've never considered my childhood to be sheltered. I didn't know FM radio existed until about the age of 10. I didn't have cable television in my house until I was 13. I did have an Atari though (hence my current addiction--hint, hint). We used propane from the big white tank behind our house for our stove and water heater but we had a wood burning stove for heating the house. That means firewood. In a Michigan winter, that means alot of firewood. Every Saturday in the Fall, while my friends were watching the fresh new season of cartoons, I was out in the woods gathering firewood with my father and brothers.
My father worked 5-6 days a week, for at least 10 hours a day. After he got home, he ate the dinner that was waiting for him and either read the local paper or started working on whatever home project needed finishing.
I am nearly the age now as my father was when this was happening. After leaving high school I wanted to cut loose. School was easy so who cared. I wanted to party. So I did. Alot. And soon I realized that eventually, the party is over. Then you have to clean up. I realized that if I wanted to survive, I needed to provide for myself. I needed skills and then a job. Sprinkle in some luck and coincidence wrought from diligence and work ethic and here I am today.
The thing is, after all that, I don't consider myself that much different from anyone else. Everybody has issues and a past. So, if I can stand up and get my **** together, so can somebody else. This is typically mistaken for callousness or cold-heartedness. For me, it's just reality. For me, there is no Dr. Feelgood in Washington ready to put a roof over my head or food on my plate. That's my job. Their job is to make sure no dumb-**** crawls over the horizon and tries to take away my house and my food. Otherwise I generally want nothing to do with them. In my opinion, a representatives job is to voice the opinion of his local community for a common term and then go back to his or her job.
I mentioned 2 terms when I started this. There are 2 more: Responsibility and Law. Freedom is the greatest thing a person can experience. But without responsibility, it can also be the most dangerous. For the irresponsible, there is the law.
I think that's it. If anybody actually read all of that.....um, sorry it took so long <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
[...] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just came back to this thread after awhile. My original idea wouldn't have been nearly as as fun as getting the chance to talk about ourselves, so this is great. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I guess I'll continue from where I left off.
Just in this past week it seems as if I'm getting constant reminders that I -- heck, everyone in my grade and my school -- lives in a bubble. Or even a bubble-within-a-bubble: first the US compared with the world, and then my school and suburb compared to the rest of the city or state or country. The majority of my classmates come from middle-to-upper class families. Meanwhile I'm pretty sure <10% of my school is minorities such as African-Americans, Asians, Hispanics, etc., and even then, most are in upper-middle to high-class. I prefer to think of myself as Joe Middleclass; no doctor or lawyer in the family.
Whenever I hear them talking or arguing with themselves or my Macroeconomics teacher about Bush's current economic policy, I can't help but think "Do they realize what being poor really means?" Even I can't say I know what it means. The closest to poor I've ever gotten was "sleeping with roaches," but it doesn't really count if it's just a typical house roach problem and 2 show up in your bed -- there's still a roof over your head, food in the fridge, and clothing in the closet, so you've got no reason to complain. The short-sightedness of some people just disgusts me, and yet I'm probably one of the people I'm insulting.
As for responding to other people:
Rhyo-Ohki, we share something in common: parents who wanted us to believe their religion, and a religiously affiliated elementary school. Likewise, it pushed me away from the religion originally "planned" for me; I'm still trying to settle on one, but haven't heard of one that agrees with my personal beliefs. I might as well go start a one-man-cult.
Monse: thanks for clearing that up. I was wondering if it was possible to pin you into any category, and I guess the only name for it is "all over the place" <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Still, I imagine your age/military experience has altered your view on the world a bit. At least somewhere along the line you've probably seen real poverty much mare than I have, anyway. You didn't mention anything about whether your time in the marines changed you at all. We're interested.
Spooge: your family story reminds me of the stories my parents and grandparents told me about <i>their</i> parents. Not many people around here know their family history back that far; a lot of my friends are in Jewish families whose family records only go as far back as WW2 at the most, so hearing another story like yours is a good read.
Get this -
My entire immediate family was on welfare at one point. Today, I dislike welfare for the most part (due to the rampant abuse of it) and I'm conservative on most issues, making myself a conservative. I have no problems whatsoever labeling myself this.
Since spooge's story moved me so much, might as well as post my own:
My mother was born in the 60's in Soeul, Korea, as an orphean. No doubt some kind of side effect of the war. Her father was french, he mother was Korean.
My father was born to my Syrian/Lebonese grandparents. My grandfather was son to an immigrant who came over from Lebonon when he was 16 years old and he came right over through Ellis island. My grandmother was again, born to syrian parents, and their Origin to me is unknown. Oddly enough, our religion is not Muslim. I'm Orthadox Christian but I really know zlich about religion.
You would think that I might be dark skinned, but I look like any other white american male. However, to my knowledge, me and my brother are the only kids in America with a Korean/Arabic background. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
When I was born, my Father was in the midst of the reganomics boom - he was running a paint store so succesfully he was a millionare. This paintstore was a family buisiness, started by my grandfather. However, soon came the depression followed by this boom, and my father was hit hard. At the same time, the buisiness paint store had some external politics which lost them their biggest seller, and the business then started to die, and die fast. As the buisiness died, so did his realationship with my mother, and by the time I was two, my father was divorced, quit his involvement in the buisiness (due to fighting with his father) and he also declared bankruptcy which was a bad effect due to the depression.
Yes, he went from middle class (as he was born in one) to riches to rags. I was three when we moved into a Hampton Beach cottage in NH. My father was declared custody of me and my brother as he had a job when he was divorced (the paint store) and my mother did not, but like I just said up above, my father soon quit this job. He later told me that in this point of his life, the only reason he continued on was due to two little baby boys who needed to be fed.
Meanwhile, my mother had a boyfriend named Khalid - he was part of the royalty of Qutar. He was living in a nice apartment in Boston (the Summerset, for those who know boston) while getting his college degree. He could afford all of this quite easily, of course, as he was being payed for by the Qutar government, which I'm sure you all know is quite wealthy due to the fact that Qutar, while being a tiny landslab in the middle east, holds something around 2% of the world's total Oil. lol. Qutar today is probably the most developed Arab nation.
While my parents did not have joint-custody of me and my brother, she was still entilted to see us. Of course, my dad and my mother really never cared for silly little arbitrary rules that were very complicated (alloted hours, etc. etc.), me and my brother basically went with my mother on the weekends and summers, and lived with our dad during the schooldays.
Meanwhile, as I grew from 3 years old to 6 years old in with my struggling father and mother who... I never really knew what she was doing at this time, I was babysat by various lots of people and friends while my father worked 8-10 hour days making ends meet. When I was 5 years old, I went to darecare, and my brother went at age 4. Immediately I hated daycare, a sign of how much I would hate the schooling to come.
To also help make his ends meet, my father was on welfare during this time; how old I was I cannot remember, but I do remember that we were only on it for about 6 months... I think. I'm not 100% sure.
Anyhow, once I hit six years of age, I started school! Needless to say, I hated school from almost the first day, but I had to go. lol, I remember now that I had around 160 uncompleted assignments by the years end. I was also very unpolite for the most part as my father wasn't too much on the manners, as he didn't care much for them himself. I was indeed a little rascal type dude.
During this time me and my brother were rountinely going to my mother's house in boston every weekend. I had a lot of upper-class city life from these experiences. I was able to see life from both ends; both rich and poor. I actually did not realize it a the time, but I definatly had more fun at my mother's house - there was simply more stuff to do, and more toys to play with. My mother also had a big screen TV (big for the time, like 24 inches) and the super NES was exclusively at her house. Me and my brother would spend hours playing games at her apartment.
Interestly enough, this video game love I had at this early age did not start just now; it started when I was around 3-4 years old, when soon after my father had moved into a beachhouse he gave me and my brother an NES. I remeber to this day asking my Dad's girlfriend at the time to help me beat the goomba's in Super Mario Bros., as I was afriad of them. XD So yes, I was playing games at an early age to help pass the time.
When I hit 2nd grade, and my brother was in 1st grade, my dad gave me my first house-key. Since my dad could not afford a baby-sitter, and he himself had to work all daylight hours, and my mother could not just drive up from boston everyday to watch us, he gave us a housekey. I kept it, and each day after the busride home I would go inside and spend some quality time on the NES, home-alone and in complete control.
What was interesting to note, however, was that I before I got my housekey, my uncle was supposed to pick me up and take us to somewhere for awhile. However, while waiting for my uncle, me and my brother would go find other kids on the block to play with. I remember having a lot of fun playing on that area, and it still gives me fond memories. However, one day our uncle missed us and couldn't find us on the block, and so left us unknowling. (My uncle isn't very bright. Oh well.) My dad, after that experience of leaving us outside untill 8 PM for one night, while we were cold and hungry, decided to give us our housekey after this. I learned at the age of six that it's better for the control to be in the individual rather than in someone else's hands.
Indeed I was given an early taste of independance, and I fully enjoyed it even though I was a tad scared.
I'll edit this and post more later.
He wasn't hinting and it is.
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Wow Spooge. You managed to insult yourself and all of us there.
We make this forum what it is. If we act like a bunch of inconsiderate juveniles, then yeah, your comment is correct. But I for one realise that we have debated and still debate red hot topics in this forum without degrading to flaming and sledging. I think that there is a lot of maturity in this forum and that the regulars in here, such as yourself, Dread, Monse, Forlorn ect, act with excellent conduct. You can sell yourself short if you want and poar scorn on all of us in this forum, but I for one couldn't ask for more mature and intelligant debating partners than the people in the discussions forum.
It's a rather off hand comment anyways, as it should be taken as a grain of salt, but we can act immature on occasions. Take it tongue in cheek if you must.