Training map questions

Greedo

Training level won't be obsolete.  Not everyone who's going to play NS will start playing with version 1.0.

Theliel

Training levels are for those who learn kinimatically, vs. those who learn visually or audioaly.

Happening to be one of those poor ######## who learns best by doing, a safe, secure practice level is a really nice idea where i can get all those nifty concepts in the manual to interrelate correctly....

otoh, nothing like a baptism by fire:)

also, re: delay of release...i don't know, delay it a bit, i broke my hand so even if it came out i couldn't play <ducks>

Insane

<!--QuoteBegin--Greedo386+Sep. 27 2002,13:39--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Greedo386 @ Sep. 27 2002,13:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Training level won't be obsolete.  Not everyone who's going to play NS will start playing with version 1.0.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly what I mean.  There are still people out there that are just starting to play CS and there will be for some time still, I expect.

Novakoala

There is nothing wrong with training levels... but I wouldn't say they're absolutely necessary. It'd be nice for NS to have one - but it's hardly worth holding up the release for it.

I'll just read the manual before going in. Needless to say, however, once the training level is released I'll play it (just to see what it's like). And there will always be new players who will use it.

The people who really <i>need</i> a training level (those to whom manuals are a mysterious waste of time) probably won't be playing NS at its first release anyway.

Scythe

What about the ingame tooltips?

That means for release we're going to have a manual and plenty of ingame tooltips. That's a fair bit of a helping hand. I don't think a tutorial map would be defcon-4 priority but rather a necessary addition sometime in the future.

--Scythe--

SNAFU

<!--QuoteBegin--Scythe+Sep. 27 2002,17:31--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Scythe @ Sep. 27 2002,17:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->What about the ingame tooltips?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh gawd... not those. ANYTHING but those! I'm so sick and tired of those annoying prompts that show up, and state the obvious, when you're much more concerned on learning how to work your mini-map.

"Click on enemy to shoot him." <!--emo&:0--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'><!--endemo-->

And if such prompts are to be used, restrict them to a training level. Simple.

Greedo

The in game tooltips are unobtrusive, and easily turned off.  It's not like in S&I where the tip basically covers the whole of the center of your screen.  A small ding, and the tip slides to the bottom right corner of your screen, not obscuring any HUD elements, or even really distracting from the game if you're 'too busy' to read them.  They're there if you want to read them, and eventually you'll probably end up reading them, or else you won't know how to turn them off!  <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->  (And yes, there is a tooltip that tells you how to shut tooltips off)

Res1

Honestly, how many times have you picked up a manual and read it all before you played a game?  I would say not very many, I don't think i've ever read a manual without playing the game a lot first.  I don't think NS will be an exception either.  Most people are just gonna dive right in and start playing NS rather than going thru the manual. Don't hold up the release just to wait for the manual o_O

Moleculor

I almost never read a manual entirely before playing a game. Sometimes I don't read it at all, till I've played a bit.

HBNayr

<!--QuoteBegin--Greedo386+Sep. 27 2002,23<!--emo&:0--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Greedo386 @ Sep. 27 2002,23<!--emo&<!--emo&:0--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'><!--endemo-->)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->(And yes, there is a tooltip that tells you how to shut tooltips off)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And another tooltip that explains what the tooltips are for, and another tooltip explaining why it's positioned in that particular location, and yet ANOTHER tooltip explaining how to tweak your Windows XP gaming machine on-the-fly.

Seriously, though, I think tooltips are a good idea.  I doubt it will be something like, "This is an alien.  They are naughty, naughty bad.  Kill him.  [To learn how to kill him, pause for 3.57 seconds, and tooltip #1876 will automatically pop up.]"  If you are playing NS, then you own Half-Life.  If you own Half-Life, then you probably know the "basics" of a FPS already,  Let's leave the overly-explanitive tool tips to the commercial games trying to appeal to a mass audience.

And as far as the training map goes, I'm looking foward to it.  Whether it comes out now, with the release, or a year after the release of 1.0, I'm going to play it.  But if it still isn't finished or scripted, then focus instead on those bugs and tweaks that NEED to be finished to get NS in my hot little hard drive.

But that's just my opinion.

Edit:  Actually, I read the manual.  When I bought Warcraft 3, I read the manual cover-to-cover before even installing the game.  There was some really, really smooth writing there.  And the release of the game isn't being held up by the manual; in fact, they hope to release the manual before the game.  Then, you'll HAVE to read the manual if you want the biggest NS fix available.  The thing being discussed is actually the in-game training level...the map is not finished, and the scripting is not finished.  But it will be done, and done right, I'm sure.

-Ryan!


"Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers."
-- Voltaire

Unknown

I actually read most of the manual before I play a game.  Mostly to find out the basic controls and/or installing info.  Sometimes the manual can provide very helpful tips that would take you awhile to figure out yourself.

I do plan on reading the manual for NS for the tech tree of the mariens and the evolution chart for the aliens.  I wanna know what a building or tech does before I build/research it.

Scythe

I usually read the manual if I can't install the game immediately, such as if I'm away from the computer, or if I get stuck somewhere. I usually peruse manuals when I get a spare minute with nothing to do also.

--Scythe--

Bill

My HL mod playing expierence usually goes like this:

Read manual if it has pretty pictures/unique gameplay->walk around a few maps in a lan game->travel online-> die

Honestly though, I've been gaming for a loooooooooooooong time I honestly pick up event he most difficult games in no time at all.

MooMoo_the_SnowCow

I usally end up playing the game because I'm so hyped up about finaly getting it I don't want to read the manual. But after running into something that I have no idea what to do or after making my self look like a complete idiot I go and read the manual.

I'm one of those people who are better at learning by doing something hands on then from a book or manual.

coil

Heh... we playtesters didn't have a manual, or a tutorial, or anything.  We just got tossed in, handed a LMG, and someone shoved us down a hallway and said "Go kill aliens!  And don't die."

Pulse

Ok, obviously some of you can download 50mbs in 3 seconds, I am cursed  with dial up however, and while I'm downloading a big mod (30mbs and above) I have enough time to:
-Read the online manual
-Read the sven coop manual (just for kicks)
-go through that horrid CS tutorial 5 times
-beat the HL and OP4 tutorials
-beat Blue-Shift
-eat some pizza (which takes about 20mins to come)
If I can do all that while I'm downloading a mod, how can you not take 5 minutes from your (lagged cuz ur d/l) game time to read a simple manual?!?!  But ummm... yeah, NS should at least have a manual if not a tutorial mission or many people may be turned off by the learning curve.

Slycaster

Also, most manuals are released BEFORE the game is actually released, for mods at least.  This allows people to really get to know the basics of the game before it's even out.  So if the manual is released before the release, i know every single rabid fan will want to view it.  Plus, it's ALWAYS good to have a general understanding of something from the professional point of view.  Hell, i will read the NS manual and i playtest, it's just a thing that you do.

Greedo

Back when I first started playing, it took me a couple weeks to get used to the game.  Though, playtesting was only on the weekends back then, so about 5-6 days of gaming, a few hours each.  This was me as a fan having followed the mod for 7 months prior.  This was also NS in an incredibly less complex state, compared to how it is now.

I shudder to think how people will expect to play the game, right off the bat.  Moreso, I shudder to think of the many inevitable posts of complaints (the hostile ones, not the well thought out and civil ones) made by people who stuck themselves in that situation.

Fam

<!--QuoteBegin--coil+Sep. 28 2002,08:13--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (coil @ Sep. 28 2002,08:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Heh... we playtesters didn't have a manual, or a tutorial, or anything.  We just got tossed in, handed a LMG, and someone shoved us down a hallway<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yah, I was told to go 'scout the hive' on my own by Monse. I didnt even get down the first corridoor. Damn you Monse, damn you.

AND he laughed afterwards. <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo-->

Longtooth

He does have "evil" in his name after all fam.  You should have been expecting it, and when you spotted the aliens lead them right back to the CC and laughed as they mangled him.

LockNLoaded

IMO, its either have an internet/document download of the 'manual' or not have it at all and do the tutorial. Having a 'hands on' experience with a tutorial (well minus the actual game play when joining a server) speaks for chapters in an otherwise 'wordy' manual slapped in with some jpegs.

Then again, since word of this 'tutorial level' isn't completed yet, might as well just concentrate on the internet/document dl of this manual as well as iron out whatever anomalies in the current NS build?

Once the manual is uploaded -say a week b4 release- the players and server ops can get a good informative read out of it.Even better, allow a DL link to this manual so that the install size can be shortened, as a result the installer code is shortened.

i'm not saying scrap the 'tutorial level'and throw it away. Save it and use it when its *gasp* gone retail. (far-fetched i know- but we can speculate cant we? <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo-->)

my 0.00002$

CMEast

<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Heh... we playtesters didn't have a manual, or a tutorial, or anything.  We just got tossed in, handed a LMG, and someone shoved us down a hallway and said "Go kill aliens!  And don't die."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Now we know why weve been through so many RC's, they just didnt know what they were doing.
I bet the AK47 models really confused them though
"Ah, big bug, the AK47 is firing properly and there iss no snipah rifle!"

8D


Oh and for all those who keep saying "Well, I learn better with hands on experience", fine, Im sure you do. That doesnt mean that you can just completely ignore a manual, the manual will tell you all the basics so you at least know what is available. Take UT2k3 for example, I know someone who got the demo off a CD but didnt bother to read anything about it and so had no idea how to use adrenaline, didnt know about the shock rifles combo and couldnt do any special moves. Fine, he learnt how to play without reading and he could beat others yes, but he didnt... <i>couldnt</i> learnt everything and so would be beaten by those with the same general skill level as he has but didnt know the moves. Oh and he accused the bots of cheating! (silly billy that he is, Im so glad he doesnt play online, not a gamer at all).
Noone can learn everything from a manual, even if your trying to learn excel or word or something. Its only truly learnt by doing, the point of the manual is to show you what you can and cant do in the first place.

C'mon people, read those damn manuals, its only a few minutes out of your lives and it will make the following minutes while playing the game soooo much better.

Oh, and if any of you dont read the manuals just cos you dont like reading then a) I'll bite/gun you down  b)ban you on my server and c)probably wont have read all these threats as this post involves alot of reading... <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->

Me            Llama       Me(again, I hate you non-readers that much)
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/bob.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='::skulk::'><!--endemo-->          <!--emo&:0--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'><!--endemo-->       <!--emo&::onos::--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tiny.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='::onos::'><!--endemo-->

Necro

<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Sep. 26 2002,11:30--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Flayra @ Sep. 26 2002,11:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->The training level is still up in the air.  Merkaba's done a fantastic job on it, but I'm not sure if we want to hold up v1.0 because the scripting isn't done for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i hope the manuals gonna be good then cause otherwise we'll have cs-how-do-i-buy-guns-type noobs :'(

Necro

<!--QuoteBegin--Res1+Sep. 27 2002,23:12--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Res1 @ Sep. 27 2002,23:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Honestly, how many times have you picked up a manual and read it all before you played a game?  I would say not very many, I don't think i've ever read a manual without playing the game a lot first.  I don't think NS will be an exception either.  Most people are just gonna dive right in and start playing NS rather than going thru the manual. Don't hold up the release just to wait for the manual o_O<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ah but if the manuals out before the game people WILL read it!

Asraniel

Yes thats true, when the manual is out one week bevor the release, i shure every forum member will know it by heart.... and also other fans

SuperMunchkin

I'm a big manual reader.. people thought I was odd.  The first thing I do with a new game is shoot for the manual to see what sort of spiffy things I can do and how to do them.  Then I try them, and do them, and all is good.  I don't get why manuals are shunned so.

CMEast

But what about all those who hear about the game once NS is out, releasing the manual early will only help us... us being the people who have been following this mod for awhile and so probably need the least amount of help.

You could create a list of questions based on the manual for people to answer and they cant play unless they answer a random question.

Skrift

<!--QuoteBegin--SuperMunchkin+Sep. 29 2002,10:44--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (SuperMunchkin @ Sep. 29 2002,10:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm a big manual reader.. people thought I was odd.  The first thing I do with a new game is shoot for the manual to see what sort of spiffy things I can do and how to do them.  Then I try them, and do them, and all is good.  I don't get why manuals are shunned so.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same here. I always read the game´s manual before playing the game (usually during installation). Let´s be weird <b>together</b>!  <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->

LockNLoaded

i checked the main site links and it seems the community page was updated with a couple new.

Over @ <a href="http://www.readyroom.org/merkaba/" target="_blank">Merkaba's</a> site theres 2 screens of this afore mentioned 'tutorial lvl' this topic is so heated about.Just scroll down a little towards the middle of the site.

Also, its a nice site filled to the brim with NS_Hera screens if u havn't noticed already.

*if this has been posted b4, i apologize*

now why are u still reading? go dig those screens! <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->

Khaim

I just read manuals while I install stuff, durring loading times and other such, usualy can read all of it durring that time too ;P, fast reader.