BizZy_9mm_MessiahOld School MemberJoin Date: 2003-07-25Member: 18411Members, Constellation
Arrrgh whaaat?! I used semicolons for my call for a medpack on radio and while hitting the bind a text message also comes up because the commander is either paying attention to one or the other. NOO!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->WRONG, I tap my spacebar to bunnyhop <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what?, Could you be more specific?
My point was that bunnyhopping cannot be entirely done by scripting, the hardest part(IMO) is getting up short stairs and various slopes(this part cannot be scripted), not just the jump timing(which is where scripting will help).
I reckon a Science and Industry type of approach could be viable, in that if you held down "jump" it would instantly jump again when you hit the ground. The skill would not be in the scripting of it as some people feel but rather knowing how to time jumps and work them to an advantage over map obstacles eg: rails, stairs etc. Make it more about efficiency not scripting knowledge.
<!--QuoteBegin--Roger Dodger+Jan 12 2004, 06:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Roger Dodger @ Jan 12 2004, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I reckon a Science and Industry type of approach could be viable, in that if you held down "jump" it would instantly jump again when you hit the ground. The skill would not be in the scripting of it as some people feel but rather knowing how to time jumps and work them to an advantage over map obstacles eg: rails, stairs etc. Make it more about efficiency not scripting knowledge.
- RD <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. Either that or remove the scripting abilities ( i use +jump anyway...)
I've never been a fan of bunny hopping myself. That belief was reinforced when I read an interview with Gabe Newell saying that he didn't like it either. (No I can't give you a link, it was many months ago if not a year) A flaw shouldn't be encouraged in my opinion. I can play well enough without it. Though I haven't been active in my clan for quite some time now I never used BH even when I was. Not to mention I find it removes a lot of atmosphere when I see a skulk strafe in the air a few times long before landing.
I learnt to bunny hop with using a normal jump key, I got pretty good at it but missed the occassional jump slowing me down at times. Then I heard about a jump script (think it does 4 jumps) so I put it in just to make it a little easier by helping me land that odd jump or two I missed.
If this script removal stays in 3.0 then I have no qualms in saying I'll try using my mousewheel for jumping as I've read that this has a similar effect to the script I currently use.
My point is that the current scripts don't really make bunny hopping easy, they just make it easier. You can't just give someone a 4 jump script like mine and they can magically bunny hop, they still need to be able to do everything else entailed within it.
But the point is, that "everything else" is the easy part of bhop. The difficult part is the jump timing. Can you call it skill to rely on a script that does that for you?
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 12 2004, 04:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 12 2004, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <a href='http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm' target='_blank'>People who don't like bhopping or scripts are all scrubs.</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you can't play without the assistance of some feature doing the work for you then you are a cheater. The only reason folks are opposed to chnaging bhopping is because they know for a fact a lot of people can't or won't do it. They like having the unfair advantage. Either embrace bhopping and make it a feature or get rid of it.
<!--QuoteBegin--wey+Jan 12 2004, 03:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wey @ Jan 12 2004, 03:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But the point is, that "everything else" is the easy part of bhop. The difficult part is the jump timing. Can you call it skill to rely on a script that does that for you? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> do you bhop?
I do not play very much nowadays and I never played much HL before NS except some CS beta. I easily mastered the bhop timing but not so much the bhop maneuvers.
It would seem the timing is the easy part. Which is what a script helps with. I jump better without a script than with.
People who <i>really</i> know should input.
OT I miss glory days of CS. Bhop, Instakill accurate crosshaired AWP, accurate auto fire while jumping, etc. THE POTENTIAL FOR ABUSE! I should have been more evil. And have had more time on my hands. I imagine a bhopping monstrosity would have been like the dances in RTCW. A bhopping AWPer. Just like UT shock gods. Definitely should have played more. Would've been fun as hell.
I've always liked bhopping, I don't consider it a cheat, it offers a huge advantage to anyone who knows how to do it, but I agree it takes from the atmosphere and feel of the skulk, not to mention it's really unfair <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Jan 13 2004, 07:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Jan 13 2004, 07:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you can't play without the assistance of some feature doing the work for you then you are a cheater. The only reason folks are opposed to chnaging bhopping is because they know for a fact a lot of people can't or won't do it. They like having the unfair advantage. Either embrace bhopping and make it a feature or get rid of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wholeheatedly second that. Say what you will BH scripters, but it gives you an advantage. Nobody deserves a technical advantage over someone else. BHing without scripts I don't mind, but of course I don't know who's using them or not when I play, so as CWAG said make it a feature or dispose of it.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Greatest thing you've ever said Forlorn. Perhaps, even, the most wonderful thing ever said on these forums. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, I was going to say it's an incorrect article to use. Playing to win is not the same as using a loophole in the system.
To use the SF analogy, in Xmen Vs Street Fighter both Wolverine and Chun-Li have unlimited hit combos, if you're good enough and know how to start them. But they're banned from the tournaments I've played in, and using it (yes, even using it but just not getting a kill from it) gets you dumped out of the tournament. (No, I do not only play local, or nubs, so please don't even START with that sort of whining) Why? Because no-one was ever intended to be able to do unlimited hits. It just works out that way because you start a normal combo, then break it & start it again. It relies on a mistake in the development of the game.
Defend bhop, decry bhop, but don't try to legitimise it. It was never intended as part of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--Funkapotamus+Jan 13 2004, 02:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Funkapotamus @ Jan 13 2004, 02:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Greatest thing you've ever said Forlorn. Perhaps, even, the most wonderful thing ever said on these forums. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> its been mentioned before <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Rennex Posted on Jan 12 2004, 09:32 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I bunnyhop, ban me please. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeh ban him!!!.... On second thoughts i like your avatars you can stay!!! (will there be a new one next week rennex?).
<!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Jan 12 2004, 09:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Jan 12 2004, 09:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Greatest thing you've ever said Forlorn. Perhaps, even, the most wonderful thing ever said on these forums. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, I was going to say it's an incorrect article to use. Playing to win is not the same as using a loophole in the system.
To use the SF analogy, in Xmen Vs Street Fighter both Wolverine and Chun-Li have unlimited hit combos, if you're good enough and know how to start them. But they're banned from the tournaments I've played in, and using it (yes, even using it but just not getting a kill from it) gets you dumped out of the tournament. (No, I do not only play local, or nubs, so please don't even START with that sort of whining) Why? Because no-one was ever intended to be able to do unlimited hits. It just works out that way because you start a normal combo, then break it & start it again. It relies on a mistake in the development of the game.
Defend bhop, decry bhop, but don't try to legitimise it. It was never intended as part of the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a using something that wasn't intended to be in the game?
So wait -
Valve decided to use the Quake engine, and release it how it was dispite the fact that in Quake, you could easily bunny hop and it was EXTREMELY well known?
So wait -
HL decided to cap bhop at 1.7 about 2 years after it's release because it wasn't part of the game?
So wait -
Flayra decided to keep bhoping in for the aliens dispite the fact that there are at least 100 ways to kill it? (Or supposedly there are; I'm not sure if you can kill bhop without hurting other alien classes meaneverability)
So tell me -
Go load up a game of HL. Walk up to a crate. Jump, and hold down the forward key. Notice, you will land on the crate. Now, realistically, you can't do this; I mean, you had no momentum when you were next to the crate. If you really wanted to jump on top of the crate, you would have to get a running start and jump before you could hit it. I mean, if you just jump when you are already pressing against the crate, by no logic should you be on top of it after you complete the jump.
However, this would feel like crap to play the game if you needed a running start to clear something as simple as a railing or crate.
Yet, I know we all do this; is this an exploit? Because you do realize that this is the same mechanism that allows me to bhop at insane speeds, correct? Bhopping is part of the game for a VERY good reason, the game would feel and play like crap if it wasn't there.
So remember, as soon as bhopping becomes unintended this also means you weren't supposed to be able to do something as simple as walk up to a crate, hold down the forward key, jump, and get on top of it.
Guess we should all be banned from HL from abusing this exploit. Everyone knows how unrealistic this is. I mean, what kind of a first person shooter would allow you to move in mid-air without any previous acceleration?
Bant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield which will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From sirlin.net
Now, let me reword this for NS terms:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as the game is concerned, bhopping is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be just as fast as someone who's bhopping. The scrub thinks of bhopping as a kind of exploit which will make him 10 times as good. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>There is nothing, and I mean <u>nothing</u> that is exploititive about bhopping.</span>
Next, it's time to move to scripts:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you can't play without the assistance of some feature doing the work for you then you are a cheater. The only reason folks are opposed to chnaging bhopping is because they know for a fact a lot of people can't or won't do it. They like having the unfair advantage. Either embrace bhopping and make it a feature or get rid of it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is one script that is abusive with NS; the _special bhop script.
This is being removed in 3.0, but even so it's not the right approach, as there are a million ways to get around it.
You could remove the console, and you won't stop the problem.
So really, scripts aren't a problem. They were built into the game so experts with the game can help take it to how they want to and refine their game. Scripting gives custimization that the controls menu will never give.
This is fine, as making the game as easy as possible to control should be the number one goal. So again, scripts are fine.
However, when scripts go out and abuse something, like a bhop that works through vents (which is inhumanly possible from my experience), then we have problems. Does this mean the scripts are at fault?
No.
Removing scripts because you can exploit one or two features of the game is absurd.
The only way to solve the problem is to make the scripts redundant, by changing the gameplay.
If you still think scripts are bad, let me use this example:
<b>The perfect control setup - a hookup into your brain.</b>
You just think about what you want your guy to do, and it's done, insantly. It wouldn't be cheating, because even though you would have perfect aim, perfect movement, perfect bhop, all you need to learn is patterns; this would not be anywhere close to a hack.
A skulk could still ambush you, and you would never know it, because you forgot to check that courner. You didn't hear him sneak up on you.
You didn't know they had cloaking. Your gun wasn't able to shoot fast enough to kill the skulk before he killed you. Your gun was too weak.
A cheat will never die to any ambushes, or cloaking. A speedhack will make sure you win every fight, even when your gun is too weak or they should have been able to kill you first.
All script does it help you move towards these elements of perfect control, but perfect controls will never come close to hacking.
It makes no sense that scripting should be taboo, when anyone can do it and it's simple as hell to learn. If getting better controls over another player is unfair even when both players have access to the same tools, then I refer back to this quote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield which will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as the game is concerned, scripting is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should never have to touch his controls. The scrub thinks of the game with perfect controls right from the start, with no extra work required. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here is a few basic questions for everyone; answer them:
1. Why do we play games at all?
2. Why do we play online games?
3. If you played a game (FPS for instance) in which you moved around and had the computer aim for you with a built in aimbot or if the game gave you the best items/weapons/whatever from start, would you still call it a game?
4. In any online game, would you stretch the game to the limits, in-game wise in order to gain the maximum advantage over others while playing?
5. Would you still stretch a game to the limits even if some features which existed in a game weren't wanted by the developers AND that these features couldn't be easily removed for any reason, but also weren't considered as bugs (note that I don't mention "exploit" here)
6. When you play online games, which of the following statement is the most important for you?
A. The most important thing for me is to play (and compete) in a game, where everyone is on an equal playing field, to gain the most fun out of the game; which only stays fun as long as the game is fair and balanced, game-wise.
B. The most important thing for me is to gain the upper hand in whatever way I can and win as much as possible (without cheating)
C. I don't care about game balances, or skill levels, I just play cause I want to and it's fun
Think about these questions, and answer them...and perhaps someone can figure out where I'm going at with all of this...may seem silly to some but....ah well..
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 13 2004, 03:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 13 2004, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>There is nothing, and I mean <u>nothing</u> that is exploititive about bhopping.</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, except the fact that it is a hole in the engine technology.
<!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Jan 12 2004, 09:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Jan 12 2004, 09:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Greatest thing you've ever said Forlorn. Perhaps, even, the most wonderful thing ever said on these forums. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, I was going to say it's an incorrect article to use. Playing to win is not the same as using a loophole in the system.
To use the SF analogy, in Xmen Vs Street Fighter both Wolverine and Chun-Li have unlimited hit combos, if you're good enough and know how to start them. But they're banned from the tournaments I've played in, and using it (yes, even using it but just not getting a kill from it) gets you dumped out of the tournament. (No, I do not only play local, or nubs, so please don't even START with that sort of whining) Why? Because no-one was ever intended to be able to do unlimited hits. It just works out that way because you start a normal combo, then break it & start it again. It relies on a mistake in the development of the game.
Defend bhop, decry bhop, but don't try to legitimise it. It was never intended as part of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Read the bottom of the article about Iceman. I believe a proper link can be drawn from the Iceman cancel to bunnyhopping.
<!--QuoteBegin--Align+Jan 13 2004, 11:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Jan 13 2004, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 13 2004, 03:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 13 2004, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>There is nothing, and I mean <u>nothing</u> that is exploititive about bhopping.</span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, except the fact that it is a hole in the engine technology. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You obviously read his very conherent and well thought out post arguing his (and my) point of view extremely well before writing that didn't you.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mintman+Jan 13 2004, 06:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mintman @ Jan 13 2004, 06:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You obviously read his very conherent and well thought out post arguing his (and my) point of view extremely well before writing that didn't you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yus :) But seriously, I don't care how he argues, if you put it in that way, you're lying. It IS an engine hole, even if generally accepted(which it isn't, as is obvious due to all the arguing in these topics), and using it is by definition an exploit.
EDIT: I had read everything down to that before I posted, and now I have read what he said after as well, and I keep my opinion. The feature which allows you to get up on crates[easily] is unfortunately possible to use for bunnyhopping- not it's intended use. And about "the perfect control setup", you know, that sounds awfully much like those who get "radar" headphones and hear everyones exact location within 50 virtual feet of their position and therefore rock a lot more. Or those who get optical mice that don't screw up because they're dirty.
I'm not arguing about scripts though, I dislike them, but I know how people with technical problems(like some people can't change weapon while they are reloading for some reason) absolutely NEED them to be able to have any sort of fun experience.
<!--QuoteBegin--Align+Jan 13 2004, 11:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Jan 13 2004, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 13 2004, 03:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 13 2004, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>There is nothing, and I mean <u>nothing</u> that is exploititive about bhopping.</span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, except the fact that it is a hole in the engine technology. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong again, scrub. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sigh. I guess you guys don't completely understand bhopping either:
When you jump and hold down a direction key, you move in that direction. This applies to mid-air movement as well, otherwise the game would feel like poop.
However, the <b>only</b> reason bhopping works is that you keep your momentum after you land. The real exploit here is that if you keep jumping, you will never lose any of your speed because it's not designed in the game so that you lose momentum after each jump. What happens is that after a jump, you lose speed based on a formula which is related to the amount of time you spend on the ground. It's something like this I do believe:
Your speed declines at x rate (which is dependant on the type of surface you are on, i.e. ice, sand) per seconds.
If you keep jumping, you don't lose your speed. If you did lose your speed, it would be impossible to bhop.
The actual act of using the air_accelleration that is integral to the game is not by any means an exploit, it was part of the game, and for good reasons.
On the other hand, something like a jump which makes sure friction does not affect you is rather questionable in my eyes, but I'm sure the developers have seen this.
However, if bhopping is such a hole in the engine, tell me this:
Valve chose to use the Quake 1 engine for HL. Bhopping was well known by the time Valve ever got their hands on the HL project. So why did Valve leave in bhopping, if this 'undesirable' exploit was left in the game? It's obvious to me that bhopping was left in because bhopping helped to make Quake a successful game (and it's successors).
While yes, bhopping was unwanted (no one wanted it because no one knew it existed!) when Quake 1 was being made, I'm sure once the developers learned about this exploit and how much top tier players enjoyed this, it became extreamlly desirable to keep.
And therefore, as a result, if bhopping is a 'hole' in the HL engine, then so is shooting your gun, because both carry the same charecteristics:
- Designed into the game - Helped other games it was in (Quake), as people liked it
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But seriously, I don't care how he argues, if you put it in that way, you're lying. It IS an engine hole, even if generally accepted(which it isn't, as is obvious due to all the arguing in these topics), and using it is by definition an exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
bunny hopping is only annoying if you are marines <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> but if your good enough (not me) you can just kill the wee f00kers before they get to0 you <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The only bhoping that actually is annoying is when a marine bounces up and down like a jo-jo. Kharaa bhoping is fine. I actually agree with RD about the holding space thing. THat would remove ALL these kinds of threads. And i just need to say; Forlorn: YOU ROCK!
Scrub? Please don't break out the dictionary for 12 year old suburban middle class gangsters <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
what?, Could you be more specific?
My point was that bunnyhopping cannot be entirely done by scripting, the hardest part(IMO) is getting up short stairs and various slopes(this part cannot be scripted), not just the jump timing(which is where scripting will help).
- RD
- RD <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Either that or remove the scripting abilities ( i use +jump anyway...)
If this script removal stays in 3.0 then I have no qualms in saying I'll try using my mousewheel for jumping as I've read that this has a similar effect to the script I currently use.
My point is that the current scripts don't really make bunny hopping easy, they just make it easier. You can't just give someone a 4 jump script like mine and they can magically bunny hop, they still need to be able to do everything else entailed within it.
You really like that article today huh, Forlorn? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you can't play without the assistance of some feature doing the work for you then you are a cheater. The only reason folks are opposed to chnaging bhopping is because they know for a fact a lot of people can't or won't do it. They like having the unfair advantage. Either embrace bhopping and make it a feature or get rid of it.
do you bhop?
I do not play very much nowadays and I never played much HL before NS except some CS beta. I easily mastered the bhop timing but not so much the bhop maneuvers.
It would seem the timing is the easy part. Which is what a script helps with. I jump better without a script than with.
People who <i>really</i> know should input.
OT I miss glory days of CS. Bhop, Instakill accurate crosshaired AWP, accurate auto fire while jumping, etc. THE POTENTIAL FOR ABUSE! I should have been more evil. And have had more time on my hands. I imagine a bhopping monstrosity would have been like the dances in RTCW. A bhopping AWPer. Just like UT shock gods. Definitely should have played more. Would've been fun as hell.
oh btw, i accept scrub status with open arms.
I wholeheatedly second that. Say what you will BH scripters, but it gives you an advantage. Nobody deserves a technical advantage over someone else. BHing without scripts I don't mind, but of course I don't know who's using them or not when I play, so as CWAG said make it a feature or dispose of it.
Funny, I was going to say it's an incorrect article to use. Playing to win is not the same as using a loophole in the system.
To use the SF analogy, in Xmen Vs Street Fighter both Wolverine and Chun-Li have unlimited hit combos, if you're good enough and know how to start them. But they're banned from the tournaments I've played in, and using it (yes, even using it but just not getting a kill from it) gets you dumped out of the tournament. (No, I do not only play local, or nubs, so please don't even START with that sort of whining) Why? Because no-one was ever intended to be able to do unlimited hits. It just works out that way because you start a normal combo, then break it & start it again. It relies on a mistake in the development of the game.
Defend bhop, decry bhop, but don't try to legitimise it. It was never intended as part of the game.
its been mentioned before <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
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I bunnyhop, ban me please. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeh ban him!!!.... On second thoughts i like your avatars you can stay!!! (will there be a new one next week rennex?).
- RD <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Funny, I was going to say it's an incorrect article to use. Playing to win is not the same as using a loophole in the system.
To use the SF analogy, in Xmen Vs Street Fighter both Wolverine and Chun-Li have unlimited hit combos, if you're good enough and know how to start them. But they're banned from the tournaments I've played in, and using it (yes, even using it but just not getting a kill from it) gets you dumped out of the tournament. (No, I do not only play local, or nubs, so please don't even START with that sort of whining) Why? Because no-one was ever intended to be able to do unlimited hits. It just works out that way because you start a normal combo, then break it & start it again. It relies on a mistake in the development of the game.
Defend bhop, decry bhop, but don't try to legitimise it. It was never intended as part of the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a using something that wasn't intended to be in the game?
So wait -
Valve decided to use the Quake engine, and release it how it was dispite the fact that in Quake, you could easily bunny hop and it was EXTREMELY well known?
So wait -
HL decided to cap bhop at 1.7 about 2 years after it's release because it wasn't part of the game?
So wait -
Flayra decided to keep bhoping in for the aliens dispite the fact that there are at least 100 ways to kill it? (Or supposedly there are; I'm not sure if you can kill bhop without hurting other alien classes meaneverability)
So tell me -
Go load up a game of HL. Walk up to a crate. Jump, and hold down the forward key. Notice, you will land on the crate. Now, realistically, you can't do this; I mean, you had no momentum when you were next to the crate. If you really wanted to jump on top of the crate, you would have to get a running start and jump before you could hit it. I mean, if you just jump when you are already pressing against the crate, by no logic should you be on top of it after you complete the jump.
However, this would feel like crap to play the game if you needed a running start to clear something as simple as a railing or crate.
Yet, I know we all do this; is this an exploit? Because you do realize that this is the same mechanism that allows me to bhop at insane speeds, correct? Bhopping is part of the game for a VERY good reason, the game would feel and play like crap if it wasn't there.
So remember, as soon as bhopping becomes unintended this also means you weren't supposed to be able to do something as simple as walk up to a crate, hold down the forward key, jump, and get on top of it.
Guess we should all be banned from HL from abusing this exploit. Everyone knows how unrealistic this is. I mean, what kind of a first person shooter would allow you to move in mid-air without any previous acceleration?
Bant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield which will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From sirlin.net
Now, let me reword this for NS terms:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as the game is concerned, bhopping is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be just as fast as someone who's bhopping. The scrub thinks of bhopping as a kind of exploit which will make him 10 times as good. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>There is nothing, and I mean <u>nothing</u> that is exploititive about bhopping.</span>
Next, it's time to move to scripts:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you can't play without the assistance of some feature doing the work for you then you are a cheater. The only reason folks are opposed to chnaging bhopping is because they know for a fact a lot of people can't or won't do it. They like having the unfair advantage. Either embrace bhopping and make it a feature or get rid of it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is one script that is abusive with NS; the _special bhop script.
This is being removed in 3.0, but even so it's not the right approach, as there are a million ways to get around it.
You could remove the console, and you won't stop the problem.
So really, scripts aren't a problem. They were built into the game so experts with the game can help take it to how they want to and refine their game. Scripting gives custimization that the controls menu will never give.
This is fine, as making the game as easy as possible to control should be the number one goal. So again, scripts are fine.
However, when scripts go out and abuse something, like a bhop that works through vents (which is inhumanly possible from my experience), then we have problems. Does this mean the scripts are at fault?
No.
Removing scripts because you can exploit one or two features of the game is absurd.
The only way to solve the problem is to make the scripts redundant, by changing the gameplay.
If you still think scripts are bad, let me use this example:
<b>The perfect control setup - a hookup into your brain.</b>
You just think about what you want your guy to do, and it's done, insantly. It wouldn't be cheating, because even though you would have perfect aim, perfect movement, perfect bhop, all you need to learn is patterns; this would not be anywhere close to a hack.
A skulk could still ambush you, and you would never know it, because you forgot to check that courner. You didn't hear him sneak up on you.
You didn't know they had cloaking. Your gun wasn't able to shoot fast enough to kill the skulk before he killed you. Your gun was too weak.
A cheat will never die to any ambushes, or cloaking. A speedhack will make sure you win every fight, even when your gun is too weak or they should have been able to kill you first.
All script does it help you move towards these elements of perfect control, but perfect controls will never come close to hacking.
It makes no sense that scripting should be taboo, when anyone can do it and it's simple as hell to learn. If getting better controls over another player is unfair even when both players have access to the same tools, then I refer back to this quote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield which will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as the game is concerned, scripting is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should never have to touch his controls. The scrub thinks of the game with perfect controls right from the start, with no extra work required. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Why do we play games at all?
2. Why do we play online games?
3. If you played a game (FPS for instance) in which you moved around and had the computer aim for you with a built in aimbot or if the game gave you the best items/weapons/whatever from start, would you still call it a game?
4. In any online game, would you stretch the game to the limits, in-game wise in order to gain the maximum advantage over others while playing?
5. Would you still stretch a game to the limits even if some features which existed in a game weren't wanted by the developers AND that these features couldn't be easily removed for any reason, but also weren't considered as bugs (note that I don't mention "exploit" here)
6. When you play online games, which of the following statement is the most important for you?
A. The most important thing for me is to play (and compete) in a game, where everyone is on an equal playing field, to gain the most fun out of the game; which only stays fun as long as the game is fair and balanced, game-wise.
B. The most important thing for me is to gain the upper hand in whatever way I can and win as much as possible (without cheating)
C. I don't care about game balances, or skill levels, I just play cause I want to and it's fun
Think about these questions, and answer them...and perhaps someone can figure out where I'm going at with all of this...may seem silly to some but....ah well..
Well, except the fact that it is a hole in the engine technology.
Funny, I was going to say it's an incorrect article to use. Playing to win is not the same as using a loophole in the system.
To use the SF analogy, in Xmen Vs Street Fighter both Wolverine and Chun-Li have unlimited hit combos, if you're good enough and know how to start them. But they're banned from the tournaments I've played in, and using it (yes, even using it but just not getting a kill from it) gets you dumped out of the tournament. (No, I do not only play local, or nubs, so please don't even START with that sort of whining) Why? Because no-one was ever intended to be able to do unlimited hits. It just works out that way because you start a normal combo, then break it & start it again. It relies on a mistake in the development of the game.
Defend bhop, decry bhop, but don't try to legitimise it. It was never intended as part of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read the bottom of the article about Iceman.
I believe a proper link can be drawn from the Iceman cancel to bunnyhopping.
Well, except the fact that it is a hole in the engine technology. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You obviously read his very conherent and well thought out post arguing his (and my) point of view extremely well before writing that didn't you.
Yus :)
But seriously, I don't care how he argues, if you put it in that way, you're lying. It IS an engine hole, even if generally accepted(which it isn't, as is obvious due to all the arguing in these topics), and using it is by definition an exploit.
EDIT: I had read everything down to that before I posted, and now I have read what he said after as well, and I keep my opinion. The feature which allows you to get up on crates[easily] is unfortunately possible to use for bunnyhopping- not it's intended use.
And about "the perfect control setup", you know, that sounds awfully much like those who get "radar" headphones and hear everyones exact location within 50 virtual feet of their position and therefore rock a lot more. Or those who get optical mice that don't screw up because they're dirty.
I'm not arguing about scripts though, I dislike them, but I know how people with technical problems(like some people can't change weapon while they are reloading for some reason) absolutely NEED them to be able to have any sort of fun experience.
Well, except the fact that it is a hole in the engine technology. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong again, scrub. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sigh. I guess you guys don't completely understand bhopping either:
When you jump and hold down a direction key, you move in that direction. This applies to mid-air movement as well, otherwise the game would feel like poop.
However, the <b>only</b> reason bhopping works is that you keep your momentum after you land. The real exploit here is that if you keep jumping, you will never lose any of your speed because it's not designed in the game so that you lose momentum after each jump. What happens is that after a jump, you lose speed based on a formula which is related to the amount of time you spend on the ground. It's something like this I do believe:
Your speed declines at x rate (which is dependant on the type of surface you are on, i.e. ice, sand) per seconds.
If you keep jumping, you don't lose your speed. If you did lose your speed, it would be impossible to bhop.
The actual act of using the air_accelleration that is integral to the game is not by any means an exploit, it was part of the game, and for good reasons.
On the other hand, something like a jump which makes sure friction does not affect you is rather questionable in my eyes, but I'm sure the developers have seen this.
However, if bhopping is such a hole in the engine, tell me this:
Valve chose to use the Quake 1 engine for HL. Bhopping was well known by the time Valve ever got their hands on the HL project. So why did Valve leave in bhopping, if this 'undesirable' exploit was left in the game? It's obvious to me that bhopping was left in because bhopping helped to make Quake a successful game (and it's successors).
While yes, bhopping was unwanted (no one wanted it because no one knew it existed!) when Quake 1 was being made, I'm sure once the developers learned about this exploit and how much top tier players enjoyed this, it became extreamlly desirable to keep.
And therefore, as a result, if bhopping is a 'hole' in the HL engine, then so is shooting your gun, because both carry the same charecteristics:
- Designed into the game
- Helped other games it was in (Quake), as people liked it
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But seriously, I don't care how he argues, if you put it in that way, you're lying. It IS an engine hole, even if generally accepted(which it isn't, as is obvious due to all the arguing in these topics), and using it is by definition an exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Due to sheer ignorance as you yourself carry.
I find your logic absurd. Try again.