Some exploits are good, some are bad. In the original TF, the developers never intended people to go flying around with conc grenades, but they figured it out and it was an 'exploit', and now it is an integral part of gameplay, accepted by everyone. Same goes for rocketjumping. You need to learn there is a difference between exploits that take skill and add something to the game and exploits that take no skill or ruin gameplay (grenade bug in 3.0 on kestrel). A good example of a no skill/ruin gameplay bug is the nail grenade exploit in TFC. If you get a nail grenade in a a ceiling or other brush, your explosion does HUGE damage and has a huge radius and goes through the ceiling to hurt players above it. This is a BAD bug, it adds nothing and it takes relatively little to no skill to accomplish. bhop is good <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
BizZy_9mm_MessiahOld School MemberJoin Date: 2003-07-25Member: 18411Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--e.Nadagast+Jan 13 2004, 05:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Jan 13 2004, 05:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Some exploits are good, some are bad. In the original TF, the developers never intended people to go flying around with conc grenades, but they figured it out and it was an 'exploit', and now it is an integral part of gameplay, accepted by everyone. Same goes for rocketjumping. You need to learn there is a difference between exploits that take skill and add something to the game and exploits that take no skill or ruin gameplay (grenade bug in 3.0 on kestrel). A good example of a no skill/ruin gameplay bug is the nail grenade exploit in TFC. If you get a nail grenade in a a ceiling or other brush, your explosion does HUGE damage and has a huge radius and goes through the ceiling to hurt players above it. This is a BAD bug, it adds nothing and it takes relatively little to no skill to accomplish. bhop is good <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same thing you told me Mullet, Revvy, Dirty Camper and all the other guys. You still bunny hop like a maniac?
I love how people act like being able to bunnyhop is like having an AWP in NS. If you can't aim, YOU WILL GET OWNED. If you put yourself in a position where you don't give yourself enough time to hit the skulk with enough bullets to kill it, YOU WILL GET OWNED. Learn how to play the game please.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 13 2004, 09:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 13 2004, 09:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Go load up a game of HL. Walk up to a crate. Jump, and hold down the forward key. Notice, you will land on the crate. Now, realistically, you can't do this; I mean, you had no momentum when you were next to the crate. If you really wanted to jump on top of the crate, you would have to get a running start and jump before you could hit it. I mean, if you just jump when you are already pressing against the crate, by no logic should you be on top of it after you complete the jump.
However, this would feel like crap to play the game if you needed a running start to clear something as simple as a railing or crate.
Yet, I know we all do this; is this an exploit? Because you do realize that this is the same mechanism that allows me to bhop at insane speeds, correct? Bhopping is part of the game for a VERY good reason, the game would feel and play like crap if it wasn't there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. Your logic is flawed.
Bunny hopping isn't about using air acceleration, it's about using air acceleration to accelerate past top speed. If air speed was capped, we couldn't bunny hop (to move faster), but we would still be able to use air acceleration to climb on ledges. The need for air acceleration doesn't legitimize bunny hopping.
Forlorn... I respect you with the best of them... but I have to simply disagree wholeheartedly with your argument.
Note the age of the HL engine.
Note the age of the engine it was built upon.
Now at these times, game engines simply could not feasibly implement any sort of physics system at all without cutting corners in order to reduce computational power needed to interpolate all objects to the next position. This is why they feature that allows bhopping exists. Now if you like this feature to the point of saying if "What? I have to use momentum to get to certain places? This sux!" then you may as well forget about playing many of the next gen games coming out... including HL2 and Doom 3. These will most certainly not have this feature due to their much advanced physics systems. Also to think that Valve chose to keep the feature in the engine to be able to include bhopping is a joke. It simply couldn't effectively be done any other way at the time.
That said... I actually have a liking for bhopping in SOME instances. For deathmatch style games, I believe it is a good tool to have. This would be part of the "I play to win" mindset. HOWEVER, NS which totes a more believable environment than most standard DM modes, should have some emphasis on simulating SOME realism into the game. This would include restricting bhopping to most lifeforms. As it is though that really isn't a viable option and balance has been made with the realisation that it will likely stay in some form or fashion while being developed on the HL engine.
THAT said... my biggest qualm with bhopping actually has two parts. I'll start with the least significant one.
1) Flayra said that utilizing a script or some other measure in order to "spam" jumps is an exploit... and thus cheating. Nobody likes cheaters. Note that I don't say that bhopping is bad... just the use of scripts to enable/enhance it. Don't blame me... Flayra said it, its his game, and I respect that. If you don't then go make your own game the way YOU want to make it and we'll see how many people come to play it.
2) There is a problem with netcode that gives bhoppers a truly unfair advantage as client prediction cannot take into account the effects of bhopping. This means that instead of slightly leading where you want to hit (to account for lag) in order to accurate, you have to adjust even more as the bhopper has actually pushed his hitbox further than your client can predict. Unfortunately the client code cannot be feasibly changed to fix this problem both from limitations of the HL engine and the fact that NS is already pushing the envelope for net traffic under the engine... even the smallest changes could induce 40-100 ping increase even on the fastest machines. Also... client prediction must rely on the fact that it must run equally on slow machines as well as fast ones (thus evening out the playing field a bit) thus making such technology rediculous to implement. I actually know people that are still running this on 200 MHz machines with only 16MB of RAM. It isn't totally pretty, but they can still play with the best of them.
Refering to the article... those that play to win... well they should all just go find one or two servers that they can dedicate just to themselves and let the rest of the community "play for fun" as the "play to win"ers are only .1% of the community anyway. I'm sure we could do just fine without your company. Just because being an elitist "play to win"er makes the game fun for YOU, does not make the game fun for everyone else.
<!--QuoteBegin--Phoebus+Jan 13 2004, 07:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Phoebus @ Jan 13 2004, 07:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 13 2004, 09:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 13 2004, 09:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Go load up a game of HL. Walk up to a crate. Jump, and hold down the forward key. Notice, you will land on the crate. Now, realistically, you can't do this; I mean, you had no momentum when you were next to the crate. If you really wanted to jump on top of the crate, you would have to get a running start and jump before you could hit it. I mean, if you just jump when you are already pressing against the crate, by no logic should you be on top of it after you complete the jump.
However, this would feel like crap to play the game if you needed a running start to clear something as simple as a railing or crate.
Yet, I know we all do this; is this an exploit? Because you do realize that this is the same mechanism that allows me to bhop at insane speeds, correct? Bhopping is part of the game for a VERY good reason, the game would feel and play like crap if it wasn't there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. Your logic is flawed.
Bunny hopping isn't about using air acceleration, it's about using air acceleration to accelerate past top speed. If air speed was capped, we couldn't bunny hop (to move faster), but we would still be able to use air acceleration to climb on ledges. The need for air acceleration doesn't legitimize bunny hopping. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Incorrect.
You failed to consider valve capped the air speed 1.7 times your normal airspeed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The need for air acceleration doesn't legitimize bunny hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, what's to legitimize?
And I paraphrase, "<a href='http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm' target='_blank'>The scrub thinks of bhopping as a kind of magic shield which will make him invincible. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.</a>"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now at these times, game engines simply could not feasibly implement any sort of physics system at all without cutting corners in order to reduce computational power needed to interpolate all objects to the next position. This is why they feature that allows bhopping exists. Now if you like this feature to the point of saying if "What? I have to use momentum to get to certain places? This sux!" then you may as well forget about playing many of the next gen games coming out... including HL2 and Doom 3. These will most certainly not have this feature due to their much advanced physics systems. Also to think that Valve chose to keep the feature in the engine to be able to include bhopping is a joke. It simply couldn't effectively be done any other way at the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Terribly wrong.
The reason is because:
#1 It would be incredibly easy to kill bhopping without putting a strain on the engine. All they have to do is cap the airspeed at 1.01 or something like that. Valve came to the desicion not to remove bhopping, perhaps you should do your research.
#2 I will bet you my car and all the money in the world that HL 2 will have air acceleration, like HL does. You can't actually climb up the crate with your hands in HL2, so obviously jumping up it will be nessesary and therefore air acceleration will remain. Unless, of course, valve makes it so you just press the +use key and automatically climb up something, and I haven't seen anything of the such.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) Flayra said that utilizing a script or some other measure in order to "spam" jumps is an exploit... and thus cheating. Nobody likes cheaters. Note that I don't say that bhopping is bad... just the use of scripts to enable/enhance it. Don't blame me... Flayra said it, its his game, and I respect that. If you don't then go make your own game the way YOU want to make it and we'll see how many people come to play it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You cannot prevent any one from spamming a command on their computer, after all the most basic function of all computers to preform is the "loop", trying to stop this may as well as be trying to kill the computer itself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) There is a problem with netcode that gives bhoppers a truly unfair advantage as client prediction cannot take into account the effects of bhopping. This means that instead of slightly leading where you want to hit (to account for lag) in order to accurate, you have to adjust even more as the bhopper has actually pushed his hitbox further than your client can predict. Unfortunately the client code cannot be feasibly changed to fix this problem both from limitations of the HL engine and the fact that NS is already pushing the envelope for net traffic under the engine... even the smallest changes could induce 40-100 ping increase even on the fastest machines. Also... client prediction must rely on the fact that it must run equally on slow machines as well as fast ones (thus evening out the playing field a bit) thus making such technology rediculous to implement. I actually know people that are still running this on 200 MHz machines with only 16MB of RAM. It isn't totally pretty, but they can still play with the best of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I notice this problem only on steam, tbh, on WON I see it once in a blue moon due to lag, but it's never as bad as it is on steam. The most I ever miss because of a super fast bhopping skulk is like 10 bullets, or maybe an extra shotgun shot. Which is plenty fair in my eyes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Refering to the article... those that play to win... well they should all just go find one or two servers that they can dedicate just to themselves and let the rest of the community "play for fun" as the "play to win"ers are only .1% of the community anyway. I'm sure we could do just fine without your company.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The people you refer to who 'play to win' are clanners like myself who want to take the game to it's fullest. And as such, clanners are what generate the lifeblood of almost any game I can think of, perhaps you would like to rethink your statement on this. I doubt any mod would last long without it's diehard competetive side, to be honest.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just because being an elitist "play to win"er makes the game fun for YOU, does not make the game fun for everyone else.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what is this supposed to mean? "Stop killing me, I hate getting owned!!!1"
Just to clarify the some of the issues I have heard here: The max airspeed cap is 300%, you cannot lower this because it would DISTROY leap and blink, as they would be confined to the lowered airspeed. The max groundspeed is 170%, you cannot achive this without exploiting the fact that jumping using certian proticals will cause your airspeed to increase, and you have to be on the ground for a certian amount of time before you will be slowed to 100%, but under no circumstances will you be able to go above 170% of your groundspeed while on the ground (effectively capping your top speed achieved by bunnyhopping to around 190-200%). Apparently this cannot be lowered without effecting your max airspeed, and therefore cannot be lowered without distroying leap and blink.
The most common fix for bunnyhopping is to slow down the ground speed to below 100% on every contact of the ground after a jump, this effectively makes bunnyhopping impossible. Now, think of using this in context with a skulk, if a marine jumps to avoid his bite he has either the choice of jumping to hit the marine and suffering a massive speed penalty, effectively making him a REALLY east target, or not jumping, missing the marine and getting killed due to being unable to kill the marine. Therefore there is no way to remove bunnyhopping on the halflife engine without distroying the skulks gameplay mechanics.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I belive the last time we had this discussion, someone tried modifying the code in another HL mod, with the effect that the max bunnyhopping speed was decreased to about 120% the max ground speed. I can't remember exactly how he did it, but aparently it was an effective cap to bunnyhopping, although it still would not be removed from the game it would slow down the max speed of bunnyhopping.
Personally I would like to see no change made to bunnyhopping the way it currently is. It is difficult enough to use and impliment that it is effectivly just one more thing that you can do to master the skulk after you have everything else down. I think it probably goes without saying, the only people who actually want bunnyhopping removed are people who don't know how to use it. Anyone who knows how to use it probably doesn't hate it. As a marine, I can never remember thinking to myself "I wish there was no bunnyhopping, then my job would be so much easyer". I have always just taking it in stride. To me, learning to bunnyhop in NS is just part of the game.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I doubt any mod would last long without it's diehard competetive side, to be honest. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The gamers graveyard is littered with games that lacked either. You need both to survive.
I don't 'scrub' (stupid term, tbh) I play to win myself. The problem of course arises when you get more & more competitive, and suddenly you <b>have</b> to do these things to survive, let alone win.
Getting to competitive at a computer game is kinda....sad :| i dont get annoyed in them sometimes, but i mostly like to enjoy them <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
whilst being shouted at through the mic to build something <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Forlorn, if you could actually argue against our posts when we make a point instead of saying how much we suck, we could get a real discussion going. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But seriously, I don't care how he argues, if you put it in that way, you're lying. It IS an engine hole, even if generally accepted(which it isn't, as is obvious due to all the arguing in these topics), and using it is by definition an exploit.
Due to sheer ignorance as you yourself carry.
I find your logic absurd. Try again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Problem: instead of saying how I'm wrong about any of that, you just say "OMG u r suck/scrub and I won't listen". It IS still an engine hole, even if a necessary one, but you're using it in a way that it's not meant to be used in, when you bunnyhop. Does that make sense to your 'absurd' logic?
EDIT: oh and by the way, some time back someone posted a piece of code that could be used to stop bunnyhopping, but not prevent jumping up on crates. If anything, flayra would want bunnyhopping in NS if he didn't use such coding. But it would still be an engine exploit.
EDIT2: And, just incase you still see what you want to see in my posts, I'll put it in a nutshell: bunnyhopping is using part of the engine in a way it was not meant to be used. That makes it an exploit. Even if it's "legit" somehow. Using "stopcommandermode" to get out of the commchair was useful, although not necessary- which the air acceleration isn't either, it just makes things more convenient. But, stopcommandermode could be exploited. As can the air acceleration.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->EDIT: oh and by the way, some time back someone posted a piece of code that could be used to stop bunnyhopping, but not prevent jumping up on crates. If anything, flayra would want bunnyhopping in NS if he didn't use such coding. But it would still be an engine exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I saw that code, as a matter of interest, it doens't stop bunny hopping per say, it just limits its max speed to signifigantly below 170%
BTW, CS anti bunnyhopping code alows you to jump up on crates the same way the HL engine does by default, but it applys a slowdown to your current speed once it registers a landing, thus preventing bunnyhopping from working. Anyone who has played CS could tell you that this code would distroy the skulk in NS however. Like I said before, you can't stop bunnyhopping for the NS skulk, but it is possible to nerf it. Never the less, I'm still opposed.
An exploit is an exploit is an exploit. Trying to sugarcoat it by saying "It's a good exploit!" or the like is just stupid. It's like saying you could get infinite cash in <insert MMORPG here> by doing a bugged quest repeatedly and getting an expensive item repeatedly from it without having to repeat the quest, but it's not a bad exploit because anyone can do it if they learn the process of repeating the bug. Or using an infinite combo in your fighting game of choice. I mean, it's in the game, anybody can learn how to do it. Can't be an exploit if it's been left in, right?
I know how to bunny hop. I only really do it occasionally when playing Sven Coop (my keyboard doesn't like too many keys being hit/held at the same time, so it's kinda hard to do often), because jumping around like an idiot is fun. Is it still me exploiting the engine? YES. Is anybody else suffering because I'm bunnyhopping to get to the nearest weapon cache to grab some ammo, or getting back to fighting the horde of gargs? Not really. I don't use it when actually fighting in Sven, because I don't see much point when dealing with AI aiming. Strafing tends to work better.
As CWAG said, either fully embrace it and make it accessable to everyone, or remove it. To anyone who says it already is accessable to all, tell me what the key binding is to autojump when I touch the ground, or show me the guide to doing it that comes bundled with the NS install, or is hosted on site. Don't see any of those? Neither do I.
You failed to consider valve capped the air speed 1.7 times your normal airspeed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They didn't, AFAIK they have the max airspeed set at something redicolously high(like 4000 units/second or something). What they did was to implement a function which sets you back to some predetermined speed if you try to jump when going faster than a certain percent of your max speed, you can still gauss jump or whatever at much higher speeds and this speed limit pertains ONLY to horizontal speed not vertical.
But I get your point, they could have capped it to 1.1 or something, but they more or less let some bunnyjumping be in for the fun of it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I saw that code, as a matter of interest, it doens't stop bunny hopping per say, it just limits its max speed to signifigantly below 170%<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you are talking about removing the forward directed component of air acceleration when strafe-jumping, then it totally removes the problem with sustained bunnyjumping(you lose speed quite quickly, scripting or not,), but it does not prevent you from gaining speed some other way(e.g. "strafe-turning on the ground", leaping, gauss jumping, wall-strafe bug) and then keeping it for a while by repeated jumping.
I'll just let my two essays on the previous pages speak for themselves, while you guys wallow in your ignorance and scrubbery <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm tired of arguing this, but remember, if you ever want the truth I just gave you all of it, but of course you can continue to ignore it. God bless America, land of the fools.
And to anyone who's reading this but doesn't want to post, you too can decide if you are a scrub in your imaginary land of NS or if you will accept the game for what it is.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 14 2004, 03:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 14 2004, 03:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'll just let my two essays on the previous pages speak for themselves, while you guys wallow in your ignorance and scrubbery <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm tired of arguing this, but remember, if you ever want the truth I just gave you all of it, but of course you can continue to ignore it. God bless America, land of the fools.
And to anyone who's reading this but doesn't want to post, you too can decide if you are a scrub in your imaginary land of NS or if you will accept the game for what it is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The first part just proves how Forlorn says how we suck, but doesn't point out in what way we are wrong.
The second part, well, I don't live in America. Does that mean I'm not a fool then? ollool? Don't ever name any specific country or nation as... well, anything. Stereotyping is pretty bad when you're doing it to a whole country.
The third: I accept that bhopping is in, and that it's bound to stay, and that there's nothing I can do about it staying in. But, I will still argue that it IS an exploit. Or, more fittingly, abuse of an engine feature.
Now for some older stuff in the topic:<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Refering to the article... those that play to win... well they should all just go find one or two servers that they can dedicate just to themselves and let the rest of the community "play for fun" as the "play to win"ers are only .1% of the community anyway. I'm sure we could do just fine without your company.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The people you refer to who 'play to win' are clanners like myself who want to take the game to it's fullest. And as such, clanners are what generate the lifeblood of almost any game I can think of, perhaps you would like to rethink your statement on this. I doubt any mod would last long without it's diehard competetive side, to be honest.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, since veterans etc ARE the minority, the mod is usually considered Dead when there are only veterans/clanners playing. Public play is the "life-o-meter" for lack of better expressions.
A pro-mode would fit rather well in most HL mods actually, where bunnyhopping and scripting and all that which was considered "OMG LAME"[removed stuff, that is.] and/or...***, is in, because it was considered a skill that anyone could do by the hardcore gamers/veterans.
Bunny hopping isn't about using air acceleration, it's about using air acceleration to accelerate past top speed. If air speed was capped, we couldn't bunny hop (to move faster), but we would still be able to use air acceleration to climb on ledges. The need for air acceleration doesn't legitimize bunny hopping. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Incorrect.
You failed to consider valve capped the air speed 1.7 times your normal airspeed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are now talking of air speed cap, NOT air acceleration. Your WHOLE argument was based on air acceleration.
Also, if I remember correctly, Valve's fix doesn't cap air speed, they just added a routine to cap playerspeed when they jump.
The reason they capped it to 1.7 times max speed is because when you jump, you get some vertical (Z) velocity added to your horizontal velocity (X & Y), so your character's velocity (X, Y & Z) can be faster than max speed even while your horizontal (X & Y) velocity is equal or slower than max speed. So capping the character's velocity (X, Y & Z) to 1 time max speed while the character has vertical (Z) velocity would mean capping horizontal (X & Y) velocity to a speed under max speed. If they would have excluded vertical velocity from the speed cap, they could have capped horizontal velocity to 1.0 * max speed without secondary effects.
That wouldn't prevent a player going faster than max_speed through air acceleration, but it would prevent a player from adding that extra velocity to the next jump.
-----
And, btw, that 'scrub' thing is the work of an ignorant. By it's definition, any gamer, if not any human being, is a scrub. The reason? There is only one game, Reality, all the other games are 'intricate construct of fictitious rules'. So the next time you play against someone who's 'cheating', he's not cheating, he's simply playing by the REAL set of rules, and YOU are being a 'scrub'.
That being said, I'm a 'scrub', and I am proud of it.
At the end of the day, its just another obscure trick that top-tier players can use to jump on a pub game and 'pwnt' the 'n00bs' who are ignorant of it. Im sure thats the primary motivation for most players.
I dont buy into these balance arguements, im not convinced that bunnyhopping is the best way to give aliens increased mobility. NS needs far less attention on personal skill and more on the teamwork aspect (its already bad enough with lone fades slaughting the entire marine team un-aided). The team with the best strategy and coordination should win out, the skill aspect should be secondary and only give a very slight advantage.
This function was provided by Soylent Green in another thread: "Bunny Hopping in 3.0" <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> // Only allow bunny jumping up to 1.7x server / player maxspeed setting #define BUNNYJUMP_MAX_SPEED_FACTOR 1.7f
//----------------------------------------------------------------------------- // Purpose: Corrects bunny jumping ( where player initiates a bunny jump before other // movement logic runs, thus making onground == -1 thus making PM_Friction get skipped and // running PM_AirMove, which doesn't crop velocity to maxspeed like the ground / other // movement logic does. //----------------------------------------------------------------------------- void PM_PreventMegaBunnyJumping( void ) { // Current player speed float spd; // If we have to crop, apply this cropping fraction to velocity float fraction; // Speed at which bunny jumping is limited float maxscaledspeed;
Modified function to prevent bunnyhopping. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> // Only allow bunny jumping up to 1.0 x server / player maxspeed setting #define BUNNYJUMP_MAX_SPEED_FACTOR 1.0f
//----------------------------------------------------------------------------- // Purpose: Corrects bunny jumping ( where player initiates a bunny jump before other // movement logic runs, thus making onground == -1 thus making PM_Friction get skipped and // running PM_AirMove, which doesn't crop velocity to maxspeed like the ground / other // movement logic does. //----------------------------------------------------------------------------- void PM_PreventMegaBunnyJumping( void ) { // Current player horizontal speed float spd; // Current player vertical speed float vspd; // If we have to crop, apply this cropping fraction to velocity float fraction; // Speed at which bunny jumping is limited float maxscaledspeed;
I believe the scrub article also fails to mention one other group of people. Former winners.
This group of people used to solely "play to win," but in the end were left empty inside. They tend to sympathize with "scrubs" and find that their notions of "honor" and "finesse" are more than fulfilling. So while these players easily have the knowledge and skill to win outright, they choose not to because they beleive there is something greater than simply winning the game. This "thing" for lack of a better term could be anything as the reasons for each of these former winners is different.
The way I personally envision those that play solely to win is many have said: top-teir competitive play. As such, they hardly have any excuse playing with "the masses" as playing against them likely wouldn't even constitute good practice compared to said winner's 1337 skillz. I also find that the difference between many scrubs and "winners" is simply level of committment. There are many scrubs that will play to win, and will win in many cases, but because they otherwise have a life outside the game and other commitments they simply don't get as skilled or knowledgable as the stereotypical "winner."
I have to humbly admit that I am one of these "former winners." I imagine there are quite a few others on this forum that fit into the same category. My reasons?
1) Now that i'm in grad school and researching/working for a living I have much less a commitment to gaming... it just doesn't pay the bills. 2) When I do play the game (whatever game that may be), I find that the social community aspect of the game is much more fulfilling than winning. Beating the **** out of all my opponents is hardly a way to make friends with them in most cases. So I've learned to tune it down a bit to make whomever I'm fighting feel like they have an equal chance of winning. Only in rare occasions do people complain that I'm just "toying with them" and to let loose... so I do and they stop complaining VERY quickly. Actually they usually just leave... which I don't care for. If you get to a point that everyone leaves as soon as you get in the game, it may be an ego boost to some, but they are still alone and NOT PLAYING THE GAME.
I find myself playing Final Fantasy XI a lot more often these days because the general community there is simply kinder and less competitive. They tend to help you out more than beat you down and scoff at you (this community comes to mind). Anyways that's my two bits.
no no no keep flaming so someone will finally LOCK this stupid thread <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Phoebus, the method is found in "pm_shared.c"- Soylent's code works, I've tested it and seen many variations on the same concept.
I'm going to point something out that most of you probably don't understand: Valve intentionally kept bunnyhopping. They felt that it had become an "intregal part of many mods", to the point that many were balanced around it. Even though it was initially an exploit, Valve has allowed it to become a (intentional) feature. Much like the Iceman example in the link Forlorn posted, bhopping has raised the bar of gameplay for NS. Tactics have evolved to combat bunnyhopping. The result at the end of the day is a raised standard of gaming, and a growing gap of skill between good and bad players- leaving a robust 'middle ground' for gamers to hone themselves in.
Stop trying to get rid of bunnyhopping! For many, it has become an intregal part of NS. If it is taken out, then gameplay will be dilluted. Bunnyhopping is a rung on the ladder of skill, leading to higher levels of compitence as a NS gamer.
You'll notice that mostly everyone in high level clans favor the preservation of bunnyhopping compared to the majority of pubs who despise it. I say to you, pubs: just because you havn't tasted <i>real</i> NS gameplay shouldn't mean that the rest of us should be denied a gaming tactic. Just because you can't do it, or don't like to do it because it 'destroys the atmosphere' (IT CREATES A MORE INTENSE ONE- this is better than the slow, boring gameplay that 99% of pubs have.), shouldn't mean that the rest of us should suffer. Honestly, <b>suffer</b> is what the hoppers will do if it is removed. The lot of you have yet to see the light and skill bhopping has brought NS.
ns without bunnyhopping would be like quake without bunnyhopping <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
The same thing you told me Mullet, Revvy, Dirty Camper and all the other guys. You still bunny hop like a maniac?
However, this would feel like crap to play the game if you needed a running start to clear something as simple as a railing or crate.
Yet, I know we all do this; is this an exploit? Because you do realize that this is the same mechanism that allows me to bhop at insane speeds, correct? Bhopping is part of the game for a VERY good reason, the game would feel and play like crap if it wasn't there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. Your logic is flawed.
Bunny hopping isn't about using air acceleration, it's about using air acceleration to accelerate past top speed. If air speed was capped, we couldn't bunny hop (to move faster), but we would still be able to use air acceleration to climb on ledges.
The need for air acceleration doesn't legitimize bunny hopping.
Note the age of the HL engine.
Note the age of the engine it was built upon.
Now at these times, game engines simply could not feasibly implement any sort of physics system at all without cutting corners in order to reduce computational power needed to interpolate all objects to the next position. This is why they feature that allows bhopping exists. Now if you like this feature to the point of saying if "What? I have to use momentum to get to certain places? This sux!" then you may as well forget about playing many of the next gen games coming out... including HL2 and Doom 3. These will most certainly not have this feature due to their much advanced physics systems. Also to think that Valve chose to keep the feature in the engine to be able to include bhopping is a joke. It simply couldn't effectively be done any other way at the time.
That said... I actually have a liking for bhopping in SOME instances. For deathmatch style games, I believe it is a good tool to have. This would be part of the "I play to win" mindset. HOWEVER, NS which totes a more believable environment than most standard DM modes, should have some emphasis on simulating SOME realism into the game. This would include restricting bhopping to most lifeforms. As it is though that really isn't a viable option and balance has been made with the realisation that it will likely stay in some form or fashion while being developed on the HL engine.
THAT said... my biggest qualm with bhopping actually has two parts. I'll start with the least significant one.
1) Flayra said that utilizing a script or some other measure in order to "spam" jumps is an exploit... and thus cheating. Nobody likes cheaters. Note that I don't say that bhopping is bad... just the use of scripts to enable/enhance it. Don't blame me... Flayra said it, its his game, and I respect that. If you don't then go make your own game the way YOU want to make it and we'll see how many people come to play it.
2) There is a problem with netcode that gives bhoppers a truly unfair advantage as client prediction cannot take into account the effects of bhopping. This means that instead of slightly leading where you want to hit (to account for lag) in order to accurate, you have to adjust even more as the bhopper has actually pushed his hitbox further than your client can predict. Unfortunately the client code cannot be feasibly changed to fix this problem both from limitations of the HL engine and the fact that NS is already pushing the envelope for net traffic under the engine... even the smallest changes could induce 40-100 ping increase even on the fastest machines. Also... client prediction must rely on the fact that it must run equally on slow machines as well as fast ones (thus evening out the playing field a bit) thus making such technology rediculous to implement. I actually know people that are still running this on 200 MHz machines with only 16MB of RAM. It isn't totally pretty, but they can still play with the best of them.
Refering to the article... those that play to win... well they should all just go find one or two servers that they can dedicate just to themselves and let the rest of the community "play for fun" as the "play to win"ers are only .1% of the community anyway. I'm sure we could do just fine without your company. Just because being an elitist "play to win"er makes the game fun for YOU, does not make the game fun for everyone else.
However, this would feel like crap to play the game if you needed a running start to clear something as simple as a railing or crate.
Yet, I know we all do this; is this an exploit? Because you do realize that this is the same mechanism that allows me to bhop at insane speeds, correct? Bhopping is part of the game for a VERY good reason, the game would feel and play like crap if it wasn't there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. Your logic is flawed.
Bunny hopping isn't about using air acceleration, it's about using air acceleration to accelerate past top speed. If air speed was capped, we couldn't bunny hop (to move faster), but we would still be able to use air acceleration to climb on ledges.
The need for air acceleration doesn't legitimize bunny hopping. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incorrect.
You failed to consider valve capped the air speed 1.7 times your normal airspeed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The need for air acceleration doesn't legitimize bunny hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, what's to legitimize?
And I paraphrase, "<a href='http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm' target='_blank'>The scrub thinks of bhopping as a kind of magic shield which will make him invincible. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.</a>"
Try again.
Terribly wrong.
The reason is because:
#1 It would be incredibly easy to kill bhopping without putting a strain on the engine. All they have to do is cap the airspeed at 1.01 or something like that. Valve came to the desicion not to remove bhopping, perhaps you should do your research.
#2 I will bet you my car and all the money in the world that HL 2 will have air acceleration, like HL does. You can't actually climb up the crate with your hands in HL2, so obviously jumping up it will be nessesary and therefore air acceleration will remain. Unless, of course, valve makes it so you just press the +use key and automatically climb up something, and I haven't seen anything of the such.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) Flayra said that utilizing a script or some other measure in order to "spam" jumps is an exploit... and thus cheating. Nobody likes cheaters. Note that I don't say that bhopping is bad... just the use of scripts to enable/enhance it. Don't blame me... Flayra said it, its his game, and I respect that. If you don't then go make your own game the way YOU want to make it and we'll see how many people come to play it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You cannot prevent any one from spamming a command on their computer, after all the most basic function of all computers to preform is the "loop", trying to stop this may as well as be trying to kill the computer itself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) There is a problem with netcode that gives bhoppers a truly unfair advantage as client prediction cannot take into account the effects of bhopping. This means that instead of slightly leading where you want to hit (to account for lag) in order to accurate, you have to adjust even more as the bhopper has actually pushed his hitbox further than your client can predict. Unfortunately the client code cannot be feasibly changed to fix this problem both from limitations of the HL engine and the fact that NS is already pushing the envelope for net traffic under the engine... even the smallest changes could induce 40-100 ping increase even on the fastest machines. Also... client prediction must rely on the fact that it must run equally on slow machines as well as fast ones (thus evening out the playing field a bit) thus making such technology rediculous to implement. I actually know people that are still running this on 200 MHz machines with only 16MB of RAM. It isn't totally pretty, but they can still play with the best of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I notice this problem only on steam, tbh, on WON I see it once in a blue moon due to lag, but it's never as bad as it is on steam. The most I ever miss because of a super fast bhopping skulk is like 10 bullets, or maybe an extra shotgun shot. Which is plenty fair in my eyes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Refering to the article... those that play to win... well they should all just go find one or two servers that they can dedicate just to themselves and let the rest of the community "play for fun" as the "play to win"ers are only .1% of the community anyway. I'm sure we could do just fine without your company.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The people you refer to who 'play to win' are clanners like myself who want to take the game to it's fullest. And as such, clanners are what generate the lifeblood of almost any game I can think of, perhaps you would like to rethink your statement on this. I doubt any mod would last long without it's diehard competetive side, to be honest.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just because being an elitist "play to win"er makes the game fun for YOU, does not make the game fun for everyone else.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what is this supposed to mean? "Stop killing me, I hate getting owned!!!1"
Nice try, but try again.
2.) Most bhoppers have to get started by running a straight path. Straight path+Hallway=dewm
Just ADAPT to the bunnyhopping, its not all that difficult people.
The most common fix for bunnyhopping is to slow down the ground speed to below 100% on every contact of the ground after a jump, this effectively makes bunnyhopping impossible. Now, think of using this in context with a skulk, if a marine jumps to avoid his bite he has either the choice of jumping to hit the marine and suffering a massive speed penalty, effectively making him a REALLY east target, or not jumping, missing the marine and getting killed due to being unable to kill the marine. Therefore there is no way to remove bunnyhopping on the halflife engine without distroying the skulks gameplay mechanics.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I belive the last time we had this discussion, someone tried modifying the code in another HL mod, with the effect that the max bunnyhopping speed was decreased to about 120% the max ground speed. I can't remember exactly how he did it, but aparently it was an effective cap to bunnyhopping, although it still would not be removed from the game it would slow down the max speed of bunnyhopping.
Personally I would like to see no change made to bunnyhopping the way it currently is. It is difficult enough to use and impliment that it is effectivly just one more thing that you can do to master the skulk after you have everything else down. I think it probably goes without saying, the only people who actually want bunnyhopping removed are people who don't know how to use it. Anyone who knows how to use it probably doesn't hate it. As a marine, I can never remember thinking to myself "I wish there was no bunnyhopping, then my job would be so much easyer". I have always just taking it in stride. To me, learning to bunnyhop in NS is just part of the game.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The gamers graveyard is littered with games that lacked either. You need both to survive.
I don't 'scrub' (stupid term, tbh) I play to win myself. The problem of course arises when you get more & more competitive, and suddenly you <b>have</b> to do these things to survive, let alone win.
whilst being shouted at through the mic to build something <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But seriously, I don't care how he argues, if you put it in that way, you're lying. It IS an engine hole, even if generally accepted(which it isn't, as is obvious due to all the arguing in these topics), and using it is by definition an exploit.
Due to sheer ignorance as you yourself carry.
I find your logic absurd. Try again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem: instead of saying how I'm wrong about any of that, you just say "OMG u r suck/scrub and I won't listen".
It IS still an engine hole, even if a necessary one, but you're using it in a way that it's not meant to be used in, when you bunnyhop. Does that make sense to your 'absurd' logic?
EDIT: oh and by the way, some time back someone posted a piece of code that could be used to stop bunnyhopping, but not prevent jumping up on crates. If anything, flayra would want bunnyhopping in NS if he didn't use such coding. But it would still be an engine exploit.
EDIT2: And, just incase you still see what you want to see in my posts, I'll put it in a nutshell: bunnyhopping is using part of the engine in a way it was not meant to be used. That makes it an exploit. Even if it's "legit" somehow. Using "stopcommandermode" to get out of the commchair was useful, although not necessary- which the air acceleration isn't either, it just makes things more convenient. But, stopcommandermode could be exploited. As can the air acceleration.
does that involve bunnies hopping up and down? then I can see why forlorn would defend it.
</nonsense>
i like cheese i like cheese
let's drop this freaking topic please!
I saw that code, as a matter of interest, it doens't stop bunny hopping per say, it just limits its max speed to signifigantly below 170%
BTW, CS anti bunnyhopping code alows you to jump up on crates the same way the HL engine does by default, but it applys a slowdown to your current speed once it registers a landing, thus preventing bunnyhopping from working. Anyone who has played CS could tell you that this code would distroy the skulk in NS however. Like I said before, you can't stop bunnyhopping for the NS skulk, but it is possible to nerf it. Never the less, I'm still opposed.
I know how to bunny hop. I only really do it occasionally when playing Sven Coop (my keyboard doesn't like too many keys being hit/held at the same time, so it's kinda hard to do often), because jumping around like an idiot is fun. Is it still me exploiting the engine? YES. Is anybody else suffering because I'm bunnyhopping to get to the nearest weapon cache to grab some ammo, or getting back to fighting the horde of gargs? Not really. I don't use it when actually fighting in Sven, because I don't see much point when dealing with AI aiming. Strafing tends to work better.
As CWAG said, either fully embrace it and make it accessable to everyone, or remove it. To anyone who says it already is accessable to all, tell me what the key binding is to autojump when I touch the ground, or show me the guide to doing it that comes bundled with the NS install, or is hosted on site. Don't see any of those? Neither do I.
You failed to consider valve capped the air speed 1.7 times your normal airspeed.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They didn't, AFAIK they have the max airspeed set at something redicolously high(like 4000 units/second or something). What they did was to implement a function which sets you back to some predetermined speed if you try to jump when going faster than a certain percent of your max speed, you can still gauss jump or whatever at much higher speeds and this speed limit pertains ONLY to horizontal speed not vertical.
But I get your point, they could have capped it to 1.1 or something, but they more or less let some bunnyjumping be in for the fun of it.
If you are talking about removing the forward directed component of air acceleration when strafe-jumping, then it totally removes the problem with sustained bunnyjumping(you lose speed quite quickly, scripting or not,), but it does not prevent you from gaining speed some other way(e.g. "strafe-turning on the ground", leaping, gauss jumping, wall-strafe bug) and then keeping it for a while by repeated jumping.
I'm tired of arguing this, but remember, if you ever want the truth I just gave you all of it, but of course you can continue to ignore it. God bless America, land of the fools.
And to anyone who's reading this but doesn't want to post, you too can decide if you are a scrub in your imaginary land of NS or if you will accept the game for what it is.
I'm tired of arguing this, but remember, if you ever want the truth I just gave you all of it, but of course you can continue to ignore it. God bless America, land of the fools.
And to anyone who's reading this but doesn't want to post, you too can decide if you are a scrub in your imaginary land of NS or if you will accept the game for what it is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first part just proves how Forlorn says how we suck, but doesn't point out in what way we are wrong.
The second part, well, I don't live in America. Does that mean I'm not a fool then? ollool?
Don't ever name any specific country or nation as... well, anything. Stereotyping is pretty bad when you're doing it to a whole country.
The third: I accept that bhopping is in, and that it's bound to stay, and that there's nothing I can do about it staying in. But, I will still argue that it IS an exploit. Or, more fittingly, abuse of an engine feature.
Now for some older stuff in the topic:<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Refering to the article... those that play to win... well they should all just go find one or two servers that they can dedicate just to themselves and let the rest of the community "play for fun" as the "play to win"ers are only .1% of the community anyway. I'm sure we could do just fine without your company.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The people you refer to who 'play to win' are clanners like myself who want to take the game to it's fullest. And as such, clanners are what generate the lifeblood of almost any game I can think of, perhaps you would like to rethink your statement on this. I doubt any mod would last long without it's diehard competetive side, to be honest.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, since veterans etc ARE the minority, the mod is usually considered Dead when there are only veterans/clanners playing. Public play is the "life-o-meter" for lack of better expressions.
A pro-mode would fit rather well in most HL mods actually, where bunnyhopping and scripting and all that which was considered "OMG LAME"[removed stuff, that is.] and/or...***, is in, because it was considered a skill that anyone could do by the hardcore gamers/veterans.
Wrong. Your logic is flawed.
Bunny hopping isn't about using air acceleration, it's about using air acceleration to accelerate past top speed. If air speed was capped, we couldn't bunny hop (to move faster), but we would still be able to use air acceleration to climb on ledges.
The need for air acceleration doesn't legitimize bunny hopping. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incorrect.
You failed to consider valve capped the air speed 1.7 times your normal airspeed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are now talking of air speed cap, NOT air acceleration.
Your WHOLE argument was based on air acceleration.
Also, if I remember correctly, Valve's fix doesn't cap air speed, they just added a routine to cap playerspeed when they jump.
The reason they capped it to 1.7 times max speed is because when you jump, you get some vertical (Z) velocity added to your horizontal velocity (X & Y), so your character's velocity (X, Y & Z) can be faster than max speed even while your horizontal (X & Y) velocity is equal or slower than max speed. So capping the character's velocity (X, Y & Z) to 1 time max speed while the character has vertical (Z) velocity would mean capping horizontal (X & Y) velocity to a speed under max speed.
If they would have excluded vertical velocity from the speed cap, they could have capped horizontal velocity to 1.0 * max speed without secondary effects.
That wouldn't prevent a player going faster than max_speed through air acceleration, but it would prevent a player from adding that extra velocity to the next jump.
-----
And, btw, that 'scrub' thing is the work of an ignorant. By it's definition, any gamer, if not any human being, is a scrub.
The reason?
There is only one game, Reality, all the other games are 'intricate construct of fictitious rules'. So the next time you play against someone who's 'cheating', he's not cheating, he's simply playing by the REAL set of rules, and YOU are being a 'scrub'.
That being said, I'm a 'scrub', and I am proud of it.
I dont buy into these balance arguements, im not convinced that bunnyhopping is the best way to give aliens increased mobility. NS needs far less attention on personal skill and more on the teamwork aspect (its already bad enough with lone fades slaughting the entire marine team un-aided). The team with the best strategy and coordination should win out, the skill aspect should be secondary and only give a very slight advantage.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
// Only allow bunny jumping up to 1.7x server / player maxspeed setting
#define BUNNYJUMP_MAX_SPEED_FACTOR 1.7f
//-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Purpose: Corrects bunny jumping ( where player initiates a bunny jump before other
// movement logic runs, thus making onground == -1 thus making PM_Friction get skipped and
// running PM_AirMove, which doesn't crop velocity to maxspeed like the ground / other
// movement logic does.
//-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
void PM_PreventMegaBunnyJumping( void )
{
// Current player speed
float spd;
// If we have to crop, apply this cropping fraction to velocity
float fraction;
// Speed at which bunny jumping is limited
float maxscaledspeed;
maxscaledspeed = BUNNYJUMP_MAX_SPEED_FACTOR * pmove->maxspeed;
// Don't divide by zero
if ( maxscaledspeed <= 0.0f )
return;
spd = Length( pmove->velocity );
if ( spd <= maxscaledspeed )
return;
fraction = ( maxscaledspeed / spd ) * 0.65; //Returns the modifier for the velocity
VectorScale( pmove->velocity, fraction, pmove->velocity ); //Crop it down!.
}
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Modified function to prevent bunnyhopping.
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// Only allow bunny jumping up to 1.0 x server / player maxspeed setting
#define BUNNYJUMP_MAX_SPEED_FACTOR 1.0f
//-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Purpose: Corrects bunny jumping ( where player initiates a bunny jump before other
// movement logic runs, thus making onground == -1 thus making PM_Friction get skipped and
// running PM_AirMove, which doesn't crop velocity to maxspeed like the ground / other
// movement logic does.
//-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
void PM_PreventMegaBunnyJumping( void )
{
// Current player horizontal speed
float spd;
// Current player vertical speed
float vspd;
// If we have to crop, apply this cropping fraction to velocity
float fraction;
// Speed at which bunny jumping is limited
float maxscaledspeed;
maxscaledspeed = BUNNYJUMP_MAX_SPEED_FACTOR * pmove->maxspeed;
// Don't divide by zero
if ( maxscaledspeed <= 0.0f )
return;
// Store vertical velocity
vspd = pmove->velocity[2];
pmove->velocity[2] = 0;
spd = Length( pmove->velocity );
if ( spd <= maxscaledspeed )
return;
fraction = ( pmove->maxspeed / spd ); //Returns the modifier for the velocity
VectorScale( pmove->velocity, fraction, pmove->velocity ); //Crop it down!.
// Restore vertical velocity
pmove->velocity[2] = vspd;
}
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Soylent green, which Half-Life version is that function from?
This group of people used to solely "play to win," but in the end were left empty inside. They tend to sympathize with "scrubs" and find that their notions of "honor" and "finesse" are more than fulfilling. So while these players easily have the knowledge and skill to win outright, they choose not to because they beleive there is something greater than simply winning the game. This "thing" for lack of a better term could be anything as the reasons for each of these former winners is different.
The way I personally envision those that play solely to win is many have said: top-teir competitive play. As such, they hardly have any excuse playing with "the masses" as playing against them likely wouldn't even constitute good practice compared to said winner's 1337 skillz. I also find that the difference between many scrubs and "winners" is simply level of committment. There are many scrubs that will play to win, and will win in many cases, but because they otherwise have a life outside the game and other commitments they simply don't get as skilled or knowledgable as the stereotypical "winner."
I have to humbly admit that I am one of these "former winners." I imagine there are quite a few others on this forum that fit into the same category. My reasons?
1) Now that i'm in grad school and researching/working for a living I have much less a commitment to gaming... it just doesn't pay the bills.
2) When I do play the game (whatever game that may be), I find that the social community aspect of the game is much more fulfilling than winning. Beating the **** out of all my opponents is hardly a way to make friends with them in most cases. So I've learned to tune it down a bit to make whomever I'm fighting feel like they have an equal chance of winning. Only in rare occasions do people complain that I'm just "toying with them" and to let loose... so I do and they stop complaining VERY quickly. Actually they usually just leave... which I don't care for. If you get to a point that everyone leaves as soon as you get in the game, it may be an ego boost to some, but they are still alone and NOT PLAYING THE GAME.
I find myself playing Final Fantasy XI a lot more often these days because the general community there is simply kinder and less competitive. They tend to help you out more than beat you down and scoff at you (this community comes to mind). Anyways that's my two bits.
I'm going to point something out that most of you probably don't understand: Valve intentionally kept bunnyhopping. They felt that it had become an "intregal part of many mods", to the point that many were balanced around it. Even though it was initially an exploit, Valve has allowed it to become a (intentional) feature. Much like the Iceman example in the link Forlorn posted, bhopping has raised the bar of gameplay for NS. Tactics have evolved to combat bunnyhopping. The result at the end of the day is a raised standard of gaming, and a growing gap of skill between good and bad players- leaving a robust 'middle ground' for gamers to hone themselves in.
Stop trying to get rid of bunnyhopping! For many, it has become an intregal part of NS. If it is taken out, then gameplay will be dilluted. Bunnyhopping is a rung on the ladder of skill, leading to higher levels of compitence as a NS gamer.
You'll notice that mostly everyone in high level clans favor the preservation of bunnyhopping compared to the majority of pubs who despise it. I say to you, pubs: just because you havn't tasted <i>real</i> NS gameplay shouldn't mean that the rest of us should be denied a gaming tactic. Just because you can't do it, or don't like to do it because it 'destroys the atmosphere' (IT CREATES A MORE INTENSE ONE- this is better than the slow, boring gameplay that 99% of pubs have.), shouldn't mean that the rest of us should suffer. Honestly, <b>suffer</b> is what the hoppers will do if it is removed. The lot of you have yet to see the light and skill bhopping has brought NS.