AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
Nope, MOST oss users think that we SHOULDNT convince other people. Because linux is a question of choice. We dont want those windows user that just want to play games. When someone choses Linux he knows why. But i for my part think that sometimes we have to show the people that linux is actualy VERY GOOD. Sometimes they forget that in the linux work things change much faster than under windows. Some users have bad experience with.. lets say SuSe 7.2 to say soemthing. Those users have NO idea what changed since then.
But well, oss is not here to convince people, when the people want to use it the can, if not, well, nobody will force them, im just sometimes here to show people that there is a alternative too linux.
<!--QuoteBegin-Asraniel+Feb 15 2004, 03:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Asraniel @ Feb 15 2004, 03:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> they say that you are not realy interested and just want a sollution without doing anything... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That makes no sense... He already has a solution. He's giving linux users the chance to actually backup their professions of linux superiority and they're balking?
Hmmm... maybe I read too much Slashdot, but seems there that the pro-linux evangelism is quite rampant, and that 'if only people knew how great linux was they'd get rid of windows altogether'.
There's no way you;re going to beat MS without getting the word out on the street. Especially since giving away free software has not prevented a 98% MS marketshare. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-othell+Feb 15 2004, 04:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell @ Feb 15 2004, 04:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Asraniel+Feb 15 2004, 03:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Asraniel @ Feb 15 2004, 03:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> they say that you are not realy interested and just want a sollution without doing anything... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That makes no sense... He already has a solution. He's giving linux users the chance to actually backup their professions of linux superiority and they're balking? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> My guess is, Othello, that they took one look at a complex real-world scenario and knew that Linux was not going to be able to do it all. This is why you need to toss the linux hobbiests and get some enterprise-level backing before anyone takes something called 'SlackWare' seriously. Recruiting IBM and Novell was a step in the right direction at least (although you may have let a few wolves into the henhouse, as other software designers have found to their dismay in previous buy-ins). <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
No, the point is that you dont WANT to be convinced. You dont beliefe in surveis as long as they are not from MS, wich has no point. How can we prove you something when you beliefe no argument? Its like the people that say the americans are were never on the moon, its impossible to convince them, they will always say everything is fake and everyone lies.
And you also dont know the facts or dont WANT to know them
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Especially since giving away free software has not prevented a 98% MS marketshare.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Linux just surpased the 3% and something percent on the the desktop and its now in front of MAC. There are more linux users than MAC users on the desktop, together they are something arount 6% not the 2% you say, and thats only the desktop, on the server side its quite different.
ok, im off, i have to teach some students how to programm... well, i'll be back ;-)
<!--QuoteBegin-Asraniel+Feb 16 2004, 07:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Asraniel @ Feb 16 2004, 07:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, the point is that you dont WANT to be convinced. You dont beliefe in surveis as long as they are not from MS, wich has no point. How can we prove you something when you beliefe no argument? Its like the people that say the americans are were never on the moon, its impossible to convince them, they will always say everything is fake and everyone lies.
And you also dont know the facts or dont WANT to know them
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Especially since giving away free software has not prevented a 98% MS marketshare.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Linux just surpased the 3% and something percent on the the desktop and its now in front of MAC. There are more linux users than MAC users on the desktop, together they are something arount 6% not the 2% you say, and thats only the desktop, on the server side its quite different.
ok, im off, i have to teach some students how to programm... well, i'll be back ;-) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As long as you are not going to teach them how to spell. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I don't want to be convinced - I do want to learn and exercise my brain. Hopefully so do you. Having a debate is not about being convinced, it's an excercise in logic. I also know much more about linux than you think (certainly more than you know about MS products, which you refuse to be convinced of, right?), which will be apparent if you actually read this thread -I just like a good discussion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And you also dont know the facts or dont WANT to know them<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not only ludicrous and incorrect, but also bordering on a personal attack. If you are unable to calmly and impersonally discuss the issue, you will not be allowed to do so. Fair warning - keep yourself under control, please.
And, uhhh, who said I was talking about just desktops? Besides operating systems, MS owns the Office Productivity software market, tons of other software applications, messaging products, databases, etc. You're right though that it's difficult to quantify, so I won't. (however, according to Onestat, you are also way off on your numbers, as of 2002 - <a href='http://www.onestat.com/html/aboutus_pressbox10.html' target='_blank'>http://www.onestat.com/html/aboutus_pressbox10.html</a> - I showed you mine, now you show me yours).
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
finaly i got it :-) <a href='http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/13/2134234&mode=thread&tid=106&tid=107&tid=185&tid=187' target='_blank'>http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/1...tid=185&tid=187</a>
Dont feel agressed MrEvil ;-) because im not.
Hey, im shure you know many things about linux... but dont worry, i know also A LOT about windows. Ill make the win2k certification in a few weeks, and i know at least NT4 and 2000 very well (administrating and everything else) And i work everyday at school/work with windows, i only switched at home to linux(and converted many friends.. when you got one the rest folows, goes faster and faster every day)
Dont worry, im not teaching them english spelling, i was the french german translater and VB teacher for some students that wanted to enter our school, was quite funny. Dont worry, im not a VB programmer, i never programmed VB before, but my java knowledge was high enough to show them the basics ;-)
The <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And you also dont know the facts or dont WANT to know them<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> was for things like bringing 2 year old statistics.. and not beliefing in others. but well, if you feel agressed ill try to be nicer, because i like threads like that with you :-)
Ehhh, your article merely agrees with my figures, and talks about how Linux may reach that market share in 3 years. Not quite sure what you thought it was saying...
And my stats were a) 1 year old, and b) stats, not predictions, like this article. As for the rest, fine and dandy - just please be sure to keep it pleasant. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- it's less commercial and less supported so it's hard to hack or infect. - it's made for network years before windows so it's reliable safe and stable. - since linux is free company's can make their own OS or bootable CD OS. - microsoft comes with new ideas to irritate other developers, if some good lazy flowerpower linuxwurm makes a patch or proggie then we have it too. - linux has a better handling in pid processing, that's why it's more stable and it's giving you the idea it's slower than windows, but with less power consumption. - tty, menu, html and desktop based configuration and interface. - windows has a 50% standard security hole, linux 19% and bsd 7% - standard built-in about 10 or 15 desktops with own userfriendly envirement. - linus torvalds checks and double checks his kernels before releasing it. - 4 ways to configure da kernel. - windows can't see a linux box in a network with a damaged utp or hub, linux will get (mostly) a ping reply. - i don't know people with a windows pc with an uptime of a year or more without having memory problems. - linux don't need an update from inet with incomplete bugfixes or SPs, debian users work that way and think their system is cool but don't ask what they did. - i may be stoned or drunk but i install, compile and config linux in 3 hours, if i have to do the same with windows then i need a day only for downloading updates. - software that comes with magazines will NOT screw up my OS unlike wintools. - windows has a dynamic library for drivers that can be added, unix systems have a kernel than can be dynamic, static or a bit of both, less risk of virusses and bugs. - i don't see a spudserver running windows crap - since you don't need a desktop an expert makes a more powerfull server with less diskspace and better/stable services running. - if you are a software expert you install linux on your coffeemachine or stereo. - microsoft's way of coding is like an alfabetical shoppinglist with lot's of new untested features <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> (we fix it in the next sp) - microsoft uses/used bsd for hotmail serving cuz their own servers can't. - i hate defragmenting!! (no i hate it even more!)
when you want to use linux:
- welcome in the harsh unthankfull unsupported crewl world of linux. - don't ask other wurms for help cuz you probably have another distro running. - don't ask other wurms for help cuz you get that boring RTFM answer. - don't ask debian users for help cuz they just know 'apt get' - don't ask other wurms where your kernel is, ask yourself where you want it. - don't do a nickchange on linux irc channels, they don't like it and they ban you. - don't ask anyone to log in for help cuz you don't learn something that way. - don't let other wurms see your firewall.conf script or whatever. - don't config your system with desktop or menu interface, scripting works better. - don't install linux for gaming purposes, it's built for networking and serving. - red hat, suse, mandrake and debian installed with graphical interface is not working with linux, that was clicking 'ok' and 'next' without knowing what happend. - also don't expect after configuring and rebooting that it works cuz some config files do not work correctly with graphical editing. (like eth devices) - stuff like 'rpm' and 'apt get' is only cool if you know what's happening.
the fight of the operating systems:
- myea i noticed years ago that winadmins are not open for discussion about open source coding, dunno why, i stopped fighting them. - my boss in the bank was a NT4 admin/freak with lots of magazines and great comment, i had lots of fun with him so now i'm without a job <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> - for some reason in that same bank the IBM & UNIX rooms are the most silent rooms filled with happy working people. - even if you work for a couple years with linux don't flame a bsd admin cuz he's system is probably 2-3 times better than yours <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> - i don't care about my firewall, i wanna have secure inet and play NS
my comment: - i'm not a pro, i can't install linux on a coffeemachine or flash a spudserver, but if i want a good, safe and stable server i know what to choose. - RTFM = read the f*****g manual - rm -r /bin/laden [?] [y/n] = remove osama? yes/no
<!--QuoteBegin-Mr.TuX+Feb 12 2004, 07:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.TuX @ Feb 12 2004, 07:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> any one ever heard of Debian <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->? its naerly the best Linux Server System i have ever seen and it is totaly free . <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea..if anyone wants more info. go to #debian on IRC quakenet, very useful!
I'm just posting this so I can beat MonsE to it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> . From <a href='http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6098' target='_blank'>OSNews</a> (which links to the real results):
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->UK based security firm mi2g has analyzed 17,074 successful digital attacks against servers and networks. The results are a bit surprising. The BSD OSes (including FreeBSD and Mac OS X) proved to be the systems least likely to be successfully cracked, while Linux servers were the most vulnerable. Linux machines suffered 13,654 successful attacks, or 80% of the survey total. Windows based servers enjoyed a sharp decline in successful breaches, with only 2,005 attacks. "Read more" for our take.
Without paying, there's not a lot of information about the methodology used, so the numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. It's not clear whether the low numbers for BSD and OSX breaches can simply be attributed to the fact that they're not as common as Linux servers. And as has been noted in the comments mi2g does not have a sterling repulation in the security industry. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
vizual_j: some of those points dont really say anything... ie "- linus torvalds checks and double checks his kernels before releasing it." <-?? Im sure anything as big as an operating system would get more than 2 checks...thats Windows and Linux and anything else.
Im sorry if i missed this earlier, but when we say "better", in what sense are we talking about? Are we arguing stability, performance, etc?
so, basically: if there's money on the line, go with ms if its your computer and you want to: be different, patch a few secutity holes, try linux/bsd/whatever, feel like it, etc then go with the penguin
webservers and mailservers are among the few exceptions as you could probably go with whatever you want at similar prices, but if you want tech support windows based is for you
1. well, linux has his distro's checked by their own creators, but a kernel is different, linus torvalds checks the kernel for virusses and bugs, you can download kernels everywhere but them are not bugfree cuz a hacker can modify a kernel and if you download it than your system can be infected. hackers built in a rootkit or an old virus like linux.rst, tools like 'ps' will be cloned and let you think your system is safe but hidden processes are not listed. official distro's that you can buy or download have a by Linus Torvalds checked kernel and is 99% bugfree.
2. if we say better then i mean everything that has to do with network cuz it's built for networking years before ms, if you wanna play games on it than windows is a better solution. as I already have written above, hotmail runs on BSD systems cuz their own servers can't handle a million client-server requests, i guess by now some of their servers can but with lots of rebooting and memory flows.
3. for support, i work about 5 years now with linux, i started with red hat 6.0 but i always got problems cuz it mixed up my eth0 and eth1, looking for support I had to register myself at red hat first. then 4 years ago i started to use linux slackware, slack works with script configurations and some menu interfaces, bad support and hardware based. if I want to know something then i go to the build-in howto or manpages and that is how you learn linux, it's kernel, dependencies and firewalling. i'm to stupid to learn anything and I smoke to much to understeand slackware, it's way to hard for me, but I know my FW has not been hacked yet, my services are always up, longest uptime was 235 days (now 23) and it's protected by a 2nd slack box in my network that prevents files are overwritten on the 1st fw.
4. debian, like i told before, it has an auto-software installer, you can do in console 'apt get <tool>' and his gonna search it on debian ftp servers, download it and installs it automaticly (and you dunno where). my friend uses debian, he works 3 years longer with linux than me and i know already more than him cuz i have to do everything manually. he is so proud on his gateaway but he can't create his own firewall.conf and he used to be a c++ programmer, he likes flaming me cuz he knows i got security holes but at least i've put my work together myself.
so it really matters wich distro you have and what and the tempo you are learning, i can't help red hat or suse users cuz their distro is different and i know 100% that the graphical desktop disturbs the configs giving them more bugs and the need for support. I used to be on the linux irc chat for support but I got enough of those flaming virginwurms that always knows things better and your distro is bad and i don't help you et blablabla <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
so, basically: if there's money on the line, go with ms if its your computer and you want to: be different, patch a few secutity holes, try linux/bsd/whatever, feel like it, etc then go with the penguin
At the moment, this is my beef with linux, this is based off of my current knowlege with linux, and they may be totally wrong.
When you compile a program on windows, the executables will work on pretty much every version of windows from windows 95 (now this is an app that just does hello world and doesnt require much from the other than the printf function.).
When you compile that same program in linux, it compiles, runs, just fine and prints out "Hello world".
Now, when I go and move my executable to another linux box, which is configured differently when it comes to the libs or whatever, my program will segfault. And the only way to fix that, is to simply recompile the program on that machine.
So, I'd have to compile my program for every linux box, moving my source code of my program to the new box, in many cases, thats really not an option if you run a closed source application.
<!--QuoteBegin-voogru+Mar 4 2004, 11:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (voogru @ Mar 4 2004, 11:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Linux is a good os for servers, imo.
At the moment, this is my beef with linux, this is based off of my current knowlege with linux, and they may be totally wrong.
When you compile a program on windows, the executables will work on pretty much every version of windows from windows 95 (now this is an app that just does hello world and doesnt require much from the other than the printf function.).
When you compile that same program in linux, it compiles, runs, just fine and prints out "Hello world".
Now, when I go and move my executable to another linux box, which is configured differently when it comes to the libs or whatever, my program will segfault. And the only way to fix that, is to simply recompile the program on that machine.
So, I'd have to compile my program for every linux box, moving my source code of my program to the new box, in many cases, thats really not an option if you run a closed source application. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Lol, I think this comes from the Open-Source Ideology. If it worked on every system like windows then Linux would become less open-source. By compiling it everytime, you have to make it open-source, which is cool in many senses and yet for some people annoying.
<!--QuoteBegin-Jim has Skillz+Mar 4 2004, 05:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jim has Skillz @ Mar 4 2004, 05:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lol, I think this comes from the Open-Source Ideology. If it worked on every system like windows then Linux would become less open-source. By compiling it everytime, you have to make it open-source, which is cool in many senses and yet for some people annoying. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No... Its just called establishing a standard. Linux could do it rather easily if they really wanted it to catch on.
<!--QuoteBegin-voogru+Mar 4 2004, 01:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (voogru @ Mar 4 2004, 01:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Linux is a good os for servers, imo.
At the moment, this is my beef with linux, this is based off of my current knowlege with linux, and they may be totally wrong.
When you compile a program on windows, the executables will work on pretty much every version of windows from windows 95 (now this is an app that just does hello .world and doesnt require much from the other than the printf function.).
When you compile that same program in linux, it compiles, runs, just fine and prints out "Hello world".
Now, when I go and move my executable to another linux box, which is configured differently when it comes to the libs or whatever, my program will segfault. And the only way to fix that, is to simply recompile the program on that machine.
So, I'd have to compile my program for every linux box, moving my source code of my program to the new box, in many cases, thats really not an option if you run a closed source application. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've never heard of this problem existing when the kernel major-release-version and GLibC major-release-version match (and major-release-versions of all the dynamic libraries used match, but thats a given), and generally I don't find it to be a big problem even when using several-versions-old binaries. The only reason you don't see this more often on the MS (and Mac) side of things is that they put alot of effort into maintaining compatability. In an open source world most apps can be recompiled for new versions of kernel/glibc/libs so this kind of maintainance doesn't get too much attention.
Frankly I think there are bigger problems in the Linux world, namely zealotous adhearence to the old UNIX method of separating files by type, rather than by association. Let me explain: This method of storage causes a program's files to be spread all over the filesystem, this is fine for a while, but what if you want to uninstall or upgrade said program? Well, if you built it from source you could try a 'make uninstall' and cross your fingers. This is why Packagae Managers (once called "An unnessesary solution to a non-existant problem" by somebody who's name escapes me at the moment) such as RPM, Apt, Pacman (yes, there really is one called Pacman), ect. are nessesary, they keep track of all this BS for you and generally do a reasonable job of dealing with it. Unfortunatly, this has caused a 'our way or the highway' atitude amoungst many distributions, such that none of the developers think its a problem that you can't install binary software that wasn't packaged in their favorite format. Naturally developers aren't going to maintain packages for more than a few distributions, so its left up to others to deal with, and often times it just doesn't get done and your left installing from source, and now uninstallation is a tricky business. The other big problem I have with this method is the fact that only root can install software.
Anyways, a solution has been developed that works really well (IMO), but for some reason it is often attacked as if it were going to prevent the second coming just because it dares to challenge a 30 year old file hierarchy. That solution, as you no doubt would have guessed because I mention it every chance I get, is <a href='http://rox.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/index.php/AppDir' target='_blank'>AppDirs</a>. AppDirs (or Application Directories) are selfcontained applications. They can be installed by drag-n-droping them from some medium (like a CD, floppy, or annother directory) to wherever you have write access , and uninstalled by deleting them. They can be moved from one folder to annother with out disrupting their function, and can contain binaries for more than one platform (so long as it is generally UNIXish). They are, IMO, *the* way to package applications. The older method may be better for the base system, but as far as I'm concerned its all AppDirs from there.
Unfortunatly, due to its hostile reception amongst a good deal of developers, it hasn't taken off very well, and there is little software packaged in this manner. To my knowledge there are three distributions, in very early development stages, intending to use AppDirs at all. They are: <a href='http://roxos.sunsite.dk/dev-contrib/guido/Blog/' target='_blank'>RoxOS</a>, <a href='http://classic-os.sourceforge.net/faq.html' target='_blank'>ClassicOS</a>, and a distribution I seem to have lost the link to... I might fill it in later.
The other thing that bothers me about Linux is X and, XFree86, and the zealots who won't it die. XFree86 first, because it is so damned kludgy. Everything is developed together, the XLibs, the XServer, the standard clients... and the build system is such taht you can't build them independantly. The configuration is a pain in the **** to do manually, and most tools for it suck. I've also heard bad things about the driver interface, but seeing as I don't code driviers I'll let it slide. X itself is a decent protocol, but unfortunatly is lacking in features that are more or less nessesary for a modern GUI. Toolkits are the biggest issue for me, there are so many of them its practically impossible to have a consistant interface, and frankly they should be handled at the server end.
Of course, there are solutions to that too, like the <a href='http://www.y-windows.org/' target='_blank'>Y Window System</a>. Witch is a step in the right direction, but like all good ideas is generally met with a hostile attitude in the linux world. There is also <a href='http://www.picogui.org/' target='_blank'>PicoGUI</a>, or rahter, PicoGUI 2.0 which would be much more flexable, if it were to ever show signs of life.
Anyway, today's 2:00am rant has been brought to you by the letter K: Helping KDE developers write their own dictionary since 1998.
Oh, and since its almost on topic, as it deals with usability: <a href='http://www.asktog.com/columns/022DesignedToGiveFitts.html#fittsQuiz' target='_blank'>A Quiz Designed to Give You Fitts</a>.
EDIT: When I was ranting about the filehierarchy, I forgot to rant about compiled in paths. You see, some programs will specify absolute paths to certain data <i>in the code</i>, making it a pain in the **** to make it work with a different layout. You can read about more such BS, at Peter Geer's <a href='http://www.cs.sunyit.edu/~geerp/rox/appdirs.html' target='_blank'>Building and Packaging Application Directories</a> page.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, I'd have to compile my program for every linux box, moving my source code of my program to the new box, in many cases, thats really not an option if you run a closed source application. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't think it has anything to do with open source code, it's more like, they could have stayed with one ancient yet updated linux distro. linux was built to use with tarballs, same standards as windows winrar and winzip, but when other distro's came with package managers you can expect differences in library and paths.
Comments
But i for my part think that sometimes we have to show the people that linux is actualy VERY GOOD. Sometimes they forget that in the linux work things change much faster than under windows. Some users have bad experience with.. lets say SuSe 7.2 to say soemthing. Those users have NO idea what changed since then.
But well, oss is not here to convince people, when the people want to use it the can, if not, well, nobody will force them, im just sometimes here to show people that there is a alternative too linux.
That makes no sense... He already has a solution. He's giving linux users the chance to actually backup their professions of linux superiority and they're balking?
There's no way you;re going to beat MS without getting the word out on the street. Especially since giving away free software has not prevented a 98% MS marketshare. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That makes no sense... He already has a solution. He's giving linux users the chance to actually backup their professions of linux superiority and they're balking? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My guess is, Othello, that they took one look at a complex real-world scenario and knew that Linux was not going to be able to do it all. This is why you need to toss the linux hobbiests and get some enterprise-level backing before anyone takes something called 'SlackWare' seriously. Recruiting IBM and Novell was a step in the right direction at least (although you may have let a few wolves into the henhouse, as other software designers have found to their dismay in previous buy-ins). <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And you also dont know the facts or dont WANT to know them
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Especially since giving away free software has not prevented a 98% MS marketshare.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Linux just surpased the 3% and something percent on the the desktop and its now in front of MAC. There are more linux users than MAC users on the desktop, together they are something arount 6% not the 2% you say, and thats only the desktop, on the server side its quite different.
ok, im off, i have to teach some students how to programm... well, i'll be back ;-)
And you also dont know the facts or dont WANT to know them
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Especially since giving away free software has not prevented a 98% MS marketshare.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Linux just surpased the 3% and something percent on the the desktop and its now in front of MAC. There are more linux users than MAC users on the desktop, together they are something arount 6% not the 2% you say, and thats only the desktop, on the server side its quite different.
ok, im off, i have to teach some students how to programm... well, i'll be back ;-) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As long as you are not going to teach them how to spell. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I don't want to be convinced - I do want to learn and exercise my brain. Hopefully so do you. Having a debate is not about being convinced, it's an excercise in logic. I also know much more about linux than you think (certainly more than you know about MS products, which you refuse to be convinced of, right?), which will be apparent if you actually read this thread -I just like a good discussion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And you also dont know the facts or dont WANT to know them<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not only ludicrous and incorrect, but also bordering on a personal attack. If you are unable to calmly and impersonally discuss the issue, you will not be allowed to do so. Fair warning - keep yourself under control, please.
And, uhhh, who said I was talking about just desktops? Besides operating systems, MS owns the Office Productivity software market, tons of other software applications, messaging products, databases, etc. You're right though that it's difficult to quantify, so I won't. (however, according to Onestat, you are also way off on your numbers, as of 2002 - <a href='http://www.onestat.com/html/aboutus_pressbox10.html' target='_blank'>http://www.onestat.com/html/aboutus_pressbox10.html</a> - I showed you mine, now you show me yours).
<a href='http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/13/2134234&mode=thread&tid=106&tid=107&tid=185&tid=187' target='_blank'>http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/1...tid=185&tid=187</a>
Dont feel agressed MrEvil ;-) because im not.
Hey, im shure you know many things about linux... but dont worry, i know also A LOT about windows. Ill make the win2k certification in a few weeks, and i know at least NT4 and 2000 very well (administrating and everything else) And i work everyday at school/work with windows, i only switched at home to linux(and converted many friends.. when you got one the rest folows, goes faster and faster every day)
Dont worry, im not teaching them english spelling, i was the french german translater and VB teacher for some students that wanted to enter our school, was quite funny. Dont worry, im not a VB programmer, i never programmed VB before, but my java knowledge was high enough to show them the basics ;-)
The
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And you also dont know the facts or dont WANT to know them<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
was for things like bringing 2 year old statistics.. and not beliefing in others. but well, if you feel agressed ill try to be nicer, because i like threads like that with you :-)
And my stats were a) 1 year old, and b) stats, not predictions, like this article. As for the rest, fine and dandy - just please be sure to keep it pleasant. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- it's less commercial and less supported so it's hard to hack or infect.
- it's made for network years before windows so it's reliable safe and stable.
- since linux is free company's can make their own OS or bootable CD OS.
- microsoft comes with new ideas to irritate other developers, if some good lazy flowerpower linuxwurm makes a patch or proggie then we have it too.
- linux has a better handling in pid processing, that's why it's more stable and it's giving you the idea it's slower than windows, but with less power consumption.
- tty, menu, html and desktop based configuration and interface.
- windows has a 50% standard security hole, linux 19% and bsd 7%
- standard built-in about 10 or 15 desktops with own userfriendly envirement.
- linus torvalds checks and double checks his kernels before releasing it.
- 4 ways to configure da kernel.
- windows can't see a linux box in a network with a damaged utp or hub, linux will get (mostly) a ping reply.
- i don't know people with a windows pc with an uptime of a year or more without having memory problems.
- linux don't need an update from inet with incomplete bugfixes or SPs, debian users work that way and think their system is cool but don't ask what they did.
- i may be stoned or drunk but i install, compile and config linux in 3 hours, if i have to do the same with windows then i need a day only for downloading updates.
- software that comes with magazines will NOT screw up my OS unlike wintools.
- windows has a dynamic library for drivers that can be added, unix systems have a kernel than can be dynamic, static or a bit of both, less risk of virusses and bugs.
- i don't see a spudserver running windows crap
- since you don't need a desktop an expert makes a more powerfull server with less diskspace and better/stable services running.
- if you are a software expert you install linux on your coffeemachine or stereo.
- microsoft's way of coding is like an alfabetical shoppinglist with lot's of new untested features <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> (we fix it in the next sp)
- microsoft uses/used bsd for hotmail serving cuz their own servers can't.
- i hate defragmenting!! (no i hate it even more!)
when you want to use linux:
- welcome in the harsh unthankfull unsupported crewl world of linux.
- don't ask other wurms for help cuz you probably have another distro running.
- don't ask other wurms for help cuz you get that boring RTFM answer.
- don't ask debian users for help cuz they just know 'apt get'
- don't ask other wurms where your kernel is, ask yourself where you want it.
- don't do a nickchange on linux irc channels, they don't like it and they ban you.
- don't ask anyone to log in for help cuz you don't learn something that way.
- don't let other wurms see your firewall.conf script or whatever.
- don't config your system with desktop or menu interface, scripting works better.
- don't install linux for gaming purposes, it's built for networking and serving.
- red hat, suse, mandrake and debian installed with graphical interface is not working with linux, that was clicking 'ok' and 'next' without knowing what happend.
- also don't expect after configuring and rebooting that it works cuz some config files do not work correctly with graphical editing. (like eth devices)
- stuff like 'rpm' and 'apt get' is only cool if you know what's happening.
the fight of the operating systems:
- myea i noticed years ago that winadmins are not open for discussion about open source coding, dunno why, i stopped fighting them.
- my boss in the bank was a NT4 admin/freak with lots of magazines and great comment, i had lots of fun with him so now i'm without a job <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- for some reason in that same bank the IBM & UNIX rooms are the most silent rooms filled with happy working people.
- even if you work for a couple years with linux don't flame a bsd admin cuz he's system is probably 2-3 times better than yours <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- i don't care about my firewall, i wanna have secure inet and play NS
my comment:
- i'm not a pro, i can't install linux on a coffeemachine or flash a spudserver, but if i want a good, safe and stable server i know what to choose.
- RTFM = read the f*****g manual
- rm -r /bin/laden [?] [y/n] = remove osama? yes/no
Yea..if anyone wants more info. go to #debian on IRC quakenet, very useful!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->UK based security firm mi2g has analyzed 17,074 successful digital attacks against servers and networks. The results are a bit surprising. The BSD OSes (including FreeBSD and Mac OS X) proved to be the systems least likely to be successfully cracked, while Linux servers were the most vulnerable. Linux machines suffered 13,654 successful attacks, or 80% of the survey total. Windows based servers enjoyed a sharp decline in successful breaches, with only 2,005 attacks. "Read more" for our take.
Without paying, there's not a lot of information about the methodology used, so the numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. It's not clear whether the low numbers for BSD and OSX breaches can simply be attributed to the fact that they're not as common as Linux servers. And as has been noted in the comments mi2g does not have a sterling repulation in the security industry. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im sorry if i missed this earlier, but when we say "better", in what sense are we talking about? Are we arguing stability, performance, etc?
if there's money on the line, go with ms
if its your computer and you want to: be different, patch a few secutity holes, try linux/bsd/whatever, feel like it, etc then go with the penguin
webservers and mailservers are among the few exceptions as you could probably go with whatever you want at similar prices, but if you want tech support windows based is for you
well, linux has his distro's checked by their own creators, but a kernel is different, linus torvalds checks the kernel for virusses and bugs, you can download kernels everywhere but them are not bugfree cuz a hacker can modify a kernel and if you download it than your system can be infected.
hackers built in a rootkit or an old virus like linux.rst, tools like 'ps' will be cloned and let you think your system is safe but hidden processes are not listed.
official distro's that you can buy or download have a by Linus Torvalds checked kernel and is 99% bugfree.
2.
if we say better then i mean everything that has to do with network cuz it's built for networking years before ms, if you wanna play games on it than windows is a better solution.
as I already have written above, hotmail runs on BSD systems cuz their own servers can't handle a million client-server requests, i guess by now some of their servers can but with lots of rebooting and memory flows.
3.
for support, i work about 5 years now with linux, i started with red hat 6.0 but i always got problems cuz it mixed up my eth0 and eth1, looking for support I had to register myself at red hat first.
then 4 years ago i started to use linux slackware, slack works with script configurations and some menu interfaces, bad support and hardware based.
if I want to know something then i go to the build-in howto or manpages and that is how you learn linux, it's kernel, dependencies and firewalling.
i'm to stupid to learn anything and I smoke to much to understeand slackware, it's way to hard for me, but I know my FW has not been hacked yet, my services are always up, longest uptime was 235 days (now 23) and it's protected by a 2nd slack box in my network that prevents files are overwritten on the 1st fw.
4.
debian, like i told before, it has an auto-software installer, you can do in console 'apt get <tool>' and his gonna search it on debian ftp servers, download it and installs it automaticly (and you dunno where).
my friend uses debian, he works 3 years longer with linux than me and i know already more than him cuz i have to do everything manually.
he is so proud on his gateaway but he can't create his own firewall.conf and he used to be a c++ programmer, he likes flaming me cuz he knows i got security holes but at least i've put my work together myself.
so it really matters wich distro you have and what and the tempo you are learning, i can't help red hat or suse users cuz their distro is different and i know 100% that the graphical desktop disturbs the configs giving them more bugs and the need for support.
I used to be on the linux irc chat for support but I got enough of those flaming virginwurms that always knows things better and your distro is bad and i don't help you et blablabla <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
so, basically:
if there's money on the line, go with ms
if its your computer and you want to: be different, patch a few secutity holes, try linux/bsd/whatever, feel like it, etc then go with the penguin
>>> blammo!
At the moment, this is my beef with linux, this is based off of my current knowlege with linux, and they may be totally wrong.
When you compile a program on windows, the executables will work on pretty much every version of windows from windows 95 (now this is an app that just does hello world and doesnt require much from the other than the printf function.).
When you compile that same program in linux, it compiles, runs, just fine and prints out "Hello world".
Now, when I go and move my executable to another linux box, which is configured differently when it comes to the libs or whatever, my program will segfault. And the only way to fix that, is to simply recompile the program on that machine.
So, I'd have to compile my program for every linux box, moving my source code of my program to the new box, in many cases, thats really not an option if you run a closed source application.
At the moment, this is my beef with linux, this is based off of my current knowlege with linux, and they may be totally wrong.
When you compile a program on windows, the executables will work on pretty much every version of windows from windows 95 (now this is an app that just does hello world and doesnt require much from the other than the printf function.).
When you compile that same program in linux, it compiles, runs, just fine and prints out "Hello world".
Now, when I go and move my executable to another linux box, which is configured differently when it comes to the libs or whatever, my program will segfault. And the only way to fix that, is to simply recompile the program on that machine.
So, I'd have to compile my program for every linux box, moving my source code of my program to the new box, in many cases, thats really not an option if you run a closed source application. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, I think this comes from the Open-Source Ideology. If it worked on every system like windows then Linux would become less open-source. By compiling it everytime, you have to make it open-source, which is cool in many senses and yet for some people annoying.
No... Its just called establishing a standard. Linux could do it rather easily if they really wanted it to catch on.
At the moment, this is my beef with linux, this is based off of my current knowlege with linux, and they may be totally wrong.
When you compile a program on windows, the executables will work on pretty much every version of windows from windows 95 (now this is an app that just does hello .world and doesnt require much from the other than the printf function.).
When you compile that same program in linux, it compiles, runs, just fine and prints out "Hello world".
Now, when I go and move my executable to another linux box, which is configured differently when it comes to the libs or whatever, my program will segfault. And the only way to fix that, is to simply recompile the program on that machine.
So, I'd have to compile my program for every linux box, moving my source code of my program to the new box, in many cases, thats really not an option if you run a closed source application. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never heard of this problem existing when the kernel major-release-version and GLibC major-release-version match (and major-release-versions of all the dynamic libraries used match, but thats a given), and generally I don't find it to be a big problem even when using several-versions-old binaries. The only reason you don't see this more often on the MS (and Mac) side of things is that they put alot of effort into maintaining compatability. In an open source world most apps can be recompiled for new versions of kernel/glibc/libs so this kind of maintainance doesn't get too much attention.
Frankly I think there are bigger problems in the Linux world, namely zealotous adhearence to the old UNIX method of separating files by type, rather than by association. Let me explain: This method of storage causes a program's files to be spread all over the filesystem, this is fine for a while, but what if you want to uninstall or upgrade said program? Well, if you built it from source you could try a 'make uninstall' and cross your fingers. This is why Packagae Managers (once called "An unnessesary solution to a non-existant problem" by somebody who's name escapes me at the moment) such as RPM, Apt, Pacman (yes, there really is one called Pacman), ect. are nessesary, they keep track of all this BS for you and generally do a reasonable job of dealing with it. Unfortunatly, this has caused a 'our way or the highway' atitude amoungst many distributions, such that none of the developers think its a problem that you can't install binary software that wasn't packaged in their favorite format. Naturally developers aren't going to maintain packages for more than a few distributions, so its left up to others to deal with, and often times it just doesn't get done and your left installing from source, and now uninstallation is a tricky business. The other big problem I have with this method is the fact that only root can install software.
Anyways, a solution has been developed that works really well (IMO), but for some reason it is often attacked as if it were going to prevent the second coming just because it dares to challenge a 30 year old file hierarchy. That solution, as you no doubt would have guessed because I mention it every chance I get, is <a href='http://rox.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/index.php/AppDir' target='_blank'>AppDirs</a>. AppDirs (or Application Directories) are selfcontained applications. They can be installed by drag-n-droping them from some medium (like a CD, floppy, or annother directory) to wherever you have write access , and uninstalled by deleting them. They can be moved from one folder to annother with out disrupting their function, and can contain binaries for more than one platform (so long as it is generally UNIXish). They are, IMO, *the* way to package applications. The older method may be better for the base system, but as far as I'm concerned its all AppDirs from there.
Unfortunatly, due to its hostile reception amongst a good deal of developers, it hasn't taken off very well, and there is little software packaged in this manner. To my knowledge there are three distributions, in very early development stages, intending to use AppDirs at all. They are: <a href='http://roxos.sunsite.dk/dev-contrib/guido/Blog/' target='_blank'>RoxOS</a>, <a href='http://classic-os.sourceforge.net/faq.html' target='_blank'>ClassicOS</a>, and a distribution I seem to have lost the link to... I might fill it in later.
The other thing that bothers me about Linux is X and, XFree86, and the zealots who won't it die. XFree86 first, because it is so damned kludgy. Everything is developed together, the XLibs, the XServer, the standard clients... and the build system is such taht you can't build them independantly. The configuration is a pain in the **** to do manually, and most tools for it suck. I've also heard bad things about the driver interface, but seeing as I don't code driviers I'll let it slide. X itself is a decent protocol, but unfortunatly is lacking in features that are more or less nessesary for a modern GUI. Toolkits are the biggest issue for me, there are so many of them its practically impossible to have a consistant interface, and frankly they should be handled at the server end.
Of course, there are solutions to that too, like the <a href='http://www.y-windows.org/' target='_blank'>Y Window System</a>. Witch is a step in the right direction, but like all good ideas is generally met with a hostile attitude in the linux world. There is also <a href='http://www.picogui.org/' target='_blank'>PicoGUI</a>, or rahter, PicoGUI 2.0 which would be much more flexable, if it were to ever show signs of life.
Anyway, today's 2:00am rant has been brought to you by the letter K: Helping KDE developers write their own dictionary since 1998.
Oh, and since its almost on topic, as it deals with usability: <a href='http://www.asktog.com/columns/022DesignedToGiveFitts.html#fittsQuiz' target='_blank'>A Quiz Designed to Give You Fitts</a>.
EDIT: When I was ranting about the filehierarchy, I forgot to rant about compiled in paths. You see, some programs will specify absolute paths to certain data <i>in the code</i>, making it a pain in the **** to make it work with a different layout. You can read about more such BS, at Peter Geer's <a href='http://www.cs.sunyit.edu/~geerp/rox/appdirs.html' target='_blank'>Building and Packaging Application Directories</a> page.
i don't think it has anything to do with open source code, it's more like, they could have stayed with one ancient yet updated linux distro.
linux was built to use with tarballs, same standards as windows winrar and winzip, but when other distro's came with package managers you can expect differences in library and paths.