I disagree with your prediction and your conclusions. A lot of players are seem to be snooty about what players are "good enough" to be in our community, but I don't think that way. In my book, the more people enjoy NS, the better. Every person that gets into NS through Combat is a new player we wouldn't have had otherwise.
Don't snub players because they like simpler games then you do, welcome them to the community instead.
Alcapwn"War is the science of destruction" - John AbbotJoin Date: 2003-06-21Member: 17590Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Flayra+Feb 6 2004, 04:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Feb 6 2004, 04:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I disagree with your prediction and your conclusions. A lot of players are seem to be snooty about what players are "good enough" to be in our community, but I don't think that way. In my book, the more people enjoy NS, the better. Every person that gets into NS through Combat is a new player we wouldn't have had otherwise.
Don't snub players because they like simpler games then you do, welcome them to the community instead. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> good point! But what will get more player here is getting NS onto the My Games list....
<!--QuoteBegin-AmazingAlienEnrique+Feb 5 2004, 02:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AmazingAlienEnrique @ Feb 5 2004, 02:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The introduction of combat has brought more players to the game, as expected. The problem is, it markets to the lowest-common-denominator of online gamers, the undesirable portion that until now, was an exception rather than a rule among the NS community. I feel like I'm playing CS or WC3 with the level of maturity and sportsmanship displayed since 3.0's public release, not the amazing, groundbreaking game that had cost me a lot fo sleep in the past. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The most painful part is this is irreversable. The plague of smacktards has no cure, and once your game is infested, you can't remove them. More often than not, they invite more of their type to play, further spreading it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Playing 3.0 reminds me of playing 2.0 when it just came out.
1.04 was great fun and I expected the same of 2.0. However, the early imbalances and the influx of new players made it a little frustrating at times. It was not only tough to find a good game, but I didn't like lots of the gameplay changes.
1 month later I was having more fun playing 2.01 than I ever did playing 1.04. The public release of the beta and the subsequent balance changes made 2.01 the best version of ns so far.
I know it seems a little more bleak with the addition of combat and the switch to steam, but I don't think there will be any "irremovable plague of smacktards" that will somehow "infest" the ns community. I think that, like after the 2.0 release, the people who enjoy the game will stay and learn, and those who don't, will leave.
Doubtless ns will have some of the problems associated with large gaming communities, such as cheating and 8 year olds, but benefits, like a healthy clan scene, a large player and server base, and continued and increased support and feedback for the ns team are worth the difficulties of change.
Sure it will be hard to adjust, but I think (and hope) that in a month, 3.01 or 3.1 or whatever will be the best and most fun version of ns so far.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 5 2004, 10:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 5 2004, 10:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AmazingAlienEnrique+Feb 5 2004, 04:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AmazingAlienEnrique @ Feb 5 2004, 04:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Before I begin, I'd like to say I think NS is a great game, one of the best and most innovative ideas in the genre to come along. Hats off to the team and community for such a well-done game.
Now, to get to the brass tacks.
Many people were concerned at the announcment of combat, that it would sever the community, bring upon loads of "smacktards" and generally degrade NS that already exists (Originally I shared these concerns). Many NS vets responded that this couldn't possibly happen, and that NS classic would remain great. This is only partially true.
NS is still a great game, and 3.0 is amazing, the balance changes and polish have got me hooked like it was the first day all over again. The problem though, I'm playing a lot less NS now. Finding a server not filled to the brim with poor sports, hatemongers and lone rambos is nearly impossible, and avoiding co_ maps is just as hard (figuring since I personally don't enjoy it, I'll just play classic).
The introduction of combat has brought more players to the game, as expected. The problem is, it markets to the lowest-common-denominator of online gamers, the undesirable portion that until now, was an exception rather than a rule among the NS community. I feel like I'm playing CS or WC3 with the level of maturity and sportsmanship displayed since 3.0's public release, not the amazing, groundbreaking game that had cost me a lot fo sleep in the past. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The most painful part is this is irreversable. The plague of smacktards has no cure, and once your game is infested, you can't remove them. More often than not, they invite more of their type to play, further spreading it.
We said this would happen, and it has.
I'm braced for the flames....but what's everyone else's thoughts on this? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> *yawns*
Seriously... people are gonna try to learn the game, either help or don't, but please get out of the way.
Your idea of a 'smacktard' means nothing. It is your own definition. Let others play the game how they want to, and try to guide them.
If all else fails, find another server, because that's exactly what I do. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think he's talking about the people that are WILLING to learn..
IAN-SDZCreator of co_rebirthJoin Date: 2003-05-07Member: 16116Members
edited February 2004
I realy enjoy playing combat when i have not so much time to spend playing and it allows me to get better. I realy enjoy playing NSclassic for the templay when i have a free hour or more to do.
Thanks to combat, i have now realy great games on classic: every time I play on NSclassic i meet guys who want to play in team. And it's sincerly better than a few games i played since 1.04
We have just two different games. Make your choice. The first, the second or both.
NS is now bigger, but NS is still here and we must be happy to see that new players are coming from everywhere. IMO
Remember that CS is really just a shoot game with guns. 3-4 minutes max with a bomb and stupid hostages. Never you'll see a terrorist or a CT flying, evolving, upgrading, welding in a 15-20-30-40 minutes game . Never.
I think we realy can't say that combat is the new CS, absolutly not. Cloaking/Scent of fear/focus/redemption/carapace/regeneration/silence/resupply/motions tracking/armor/jetpacks etc... etc... it realy sounds like CS for you? Me i just remember sniper rifles, ak47 and a few guns, the same in a team or the other.
I open my eyes on my screen. I see lerks flying around, onii incoming and jetpackers trying to kill a hive. And i think it's just amazing...
My goal in Combat is sometimes killing aliens/rines with different upgrades, sometimes i really try to get down the hive or the cc and sometimes i just get a welder to help my team to win.
My goal in Classic is to be the best for my team/commander and to respect a hard strategy bringing us to victory.
NSclassic and NScombat are both different great games. This is my opinion. And we have the chance to explain what we want, what we expect, what we need.. this is amazing too i think.
Me i'm just happy with the new version of my favourite game. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I like having more players to the NS community for those who are mature and willing to learn how to play NS. But the main problem we're more or less talking about is how there are those who aren't mature, and are generally painfully annoying. These range from cheaters, to sore losers, to sore winners, to voice comm abusers (although this can be cancelled out with the mute option), to... Well the not-so-nice portion of the CS community. As I said, having a simpler gameplay mode is a good idea to bring more people, but the majority of those people are quite immature and takes pleasure in bothering others (some of them have mentioned it to the public in websites, although I wished I could remember what some of those were).
It's a good thing NS: Combat doesn't use team resources, as there are some people who believe their skills are hidden in their weapon of choice (COMM! HMG! GIVE ME HMG! COMM! COMM! HMG! [somehow they can stay alive for minutes to whine, yet they die the moment they get their present; I have yet to understand how that works]).
In the end, I believe that both points are valid. There are more players happy to be welcomed to the world of NS without the time needed to learn how to play, yet at the same time, there are even more players happy to see that we are all terrorised.
I wished we were all rich enough to pay for 24/7 unbiased admins to govern all servers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree with your prediction and your conclusions. A lot of players are seem to be snooty about what players are "good enough" to be in our community, but I don't think that way. In my book, the more people enjoy NS, the better. Every person that gets into NS through Combat is a new player we wouldn't have had otherwise.
Don't snub players because they like simpler games then you do, welcome them to the community instead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I appreciate you taking time to respond, Flayra....you're a busy guy and all <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The point is not to snub those who like simpler games...Hell, I love games like UT, Q3, and TFC. That'd be a bit hypocritical.
My wish is to eliminate folks who have poor sportsmanship, selfish attitudes, or are here to ruin the game for their own amusement. Honestly, who DOES like dealing with those sorts of players? They can't be gotten rid of completely...but attracting them is a bit counter-productive, IMO.
NS is in my mind the most innovative game in existance right now. Combat isn't "simpler" as much as it takes all the things that makes NS great and removes them from play. Regardless of any bugs or balance issues, I'd far rather play a deathmatch game than a "debased" version of a rich, complex game. Of course, that's why I frequent "NS-only" servers.
I think my real question to you personally, Flayra, is what is the "goal" of combat? To get new blood into regular NS, or to market to the lowest-common-denominator in hopes of a broader appeal? (I know things like that are neccesary for full retail support and such, I'm just curious of your hopes with it)
Popularity isn't always a good thing....I think it depends a lot on who you're popular with.
Thanks to everyone for very well-thought out responses, I thought I was gonna get burned at the stake! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I've been playing just combat maps recently, I am guilty of leaving as soon as the map turns to classic, just because most servers have both sorts in their map rotation (regardless of player numbers).
One thing that I do love about combat is the training aspect - I have spent much more time learning to use the lerk than I ever had in classic. Once I feel I have lerk skilz I will move onto fade and so on.
Over time I think there will be very few people who purely play combat, they will either progress to the more strategic/penalising classic or dissapear. I could only take 2years of Dod and moved on <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDIT - and all for the better if the combat players don't dissapear. Flayra will have a solid playerbase to launch brand new NS or "other" creations onto.
A good solution is to find a good server...for example the [On|E] Lerk Jerky server, a heavily admined clan or community server is the best thing you can do to remove the racist lamers and such, while maintaining a decently skilled playerbase.
Comments
Don't snub players because they like simpler games then you do, welcome them to the community instead.
Don't snub players because they like simpler games then you do, welcome them to the community instead. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
good point! But what will get more player here is getting NS onto the My Games list....
The most painful part is this is irreversable. The plague of smacktards has no cure, and once your game is infested, you can't remove them. More often than not, they invite more of their type to play, further spreading it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Playing 3.0 reminds me of playing 2.0 when it just came out.
1.04 was great fun and I expected the same of 2.0. However, the early imbalances and the influx of new players made it a little frustrating at times. It was not only tough to find a good game, but I didn't like lots of the gameplay changes.
1 month later I was having more fun playing 2.01 than I ever did playing 1.04. The public release of the beta and the subsequent balance changes made 2.01 the best version of ns so far.
I know it seems a little more bleak with the addition of combat and the switch to steam, but I don't think there will be any "irremovable plague of smacktards" that will somehow "infest" the ns community. I think that, like after the 2.0 release, the people who enjoy the game will stay and learn, and those who don't, will leave.
Doubtless ns will have some of the problems associated with large gaming communities, such as cheating and 8 year olds, but benefits, like a healthy clan scene, a large player and server base, and continued and increased support and feedback for the ns team are worth the difficulties of change.
Sure it will be hard to adjust, but I think (and hope) that in a month, 3.01 or 3.1 or whatever will be the best and most fun version of ns so far.
Now, to get to the brass tacks.
Many people were concerned at the announcment of combat, that it would sever the community, bring upon loads of "smacktards" and generally degrade NS that already exists (Originally I shared these concerns). Many NS vets responded that this couldn't possibly happen, and that NS classic would remain great. This is only partially true.
NS is still a great game, and 3.0 is amazing, the balance changes and polish have got me hooked like it was the first day all over again. The problem though, I'm playing a lot less NS now. Finding a server not filled to the brim with poor sports, hatemongers and lone rambos is nearly impossible, and avoiding co_ maps is just as hard (figuring since I personally don't enjoy it, I'll just play classic).
The introduction of combat has brought more players to the game, as expected. The problem is, it markets to the lowest-common-denominator of online gamers, the undesirable portion that until now, was an exception rather than a rule among the NS community. I feel like I'm playing CS or WC3 with the level of maturity and sportsmanship displayed since 3.0's public release, not the amazing, groundbreaking game that had cost me a lot fo sleep in the past. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The most painful part is this is irreversable. The plague of smacktards has no cure, and once your game is infested, you can't remove them. More often than not, they invite more of their type to play, further spreading it.
We said this would happen, and it has.
I'm braced for the flames....but what's everyone else's thoughts on this? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*yawns*
Seriously... people are gonna try to learn the game, either help or don't, but please get out of the way.
Your idea of a 'smacktard' means nothing. It is your own definition. Let others play the game how they want to, and try to guide them.
If all else fails, find another server, because that's exactly what I do. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think he's talking about the people that are WILLING to learn..
I realy enjoy playing NSclassic for the templay when i have a free hour or more to do.
Thanks to combat, i have now realy great games on classic:
every time I play on NSclassic i meet guys who want to play in team.
And it's sincerly better than a few games i played since 1.04
We have just two different games. Make your choice.
The first, the second or both.
NS is now bigger, but NS is still here and we must be happy to see that new players are coming from everywhere. IMO
Remember that CS is really just a shoot game with guns. 3-4 minutes max with a bomb and stupid hostages.
Never you'll see a terrorist or a CT flying, evolving, upgrading, welding in a 15-20-30-40 minutes game . Never.
I think we realy can't say that combat is the new CS, absolutly not.
Cloaking/Scent of fear/focus/redemption/carapace/regeneration/silence/resupply/motions tracking/armor/jetpacks etc... etc... it realy sounds like CS for you?
Me i just remember sniper rifles, ak47 and a few guns, the same in a team or the other.
I open my eyes on my screen. I see lerks flying around, onii incoming and jetpackers trying to kill a hive. And i think it's just amazing...
My goal in Combat is sometimes killing aliens/rines with different upgrades, sometimes i really try to get down the hive or the cc and sometimes i just get a welder to help my team to win.
My goal in Classic is to be the best for my team/commander and to respect a hard strategy bringing us to victory.
NSclassic and NScombat are both different great games. This is my opinion.
And we have the chance to explain what we want, what we expect, what we need.. this is amazing too i think.
Me i'm just happy with the new version of my favourite game. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It's a good thing NS: Combat doesn't use team resources, as there are some people who believe their skills are hidden in their weapon of choice (COMM! HMG! GIVE ME HMG! COMM! COMM! HMG! [somehow they can stay alive for minutes to whine, yet they die the moment they get their present; I have yet to understand how that works]).
In the end, I believe that both points are valid. There are more players happy to be welcomed to the world of NS without the time needed to learn how to play, yet at the same time, there are even more players happy to see that we are all terrorised.
I wished we were all rich enough to pay for 24/7 unbiased admins to govern all servers.
Don't snub players because they like simpler games then you do, welcome them to the community instead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I appreciate you taking time to respond, Flayra....you're a busy guy and all <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The point is not to snub those who like simpler games...Hell, I love games like UT, Q3, and TFC. That'd be a bit hypocritical.
My wish is to eliminate folks who have poor sportsmanship, selfish attitudes, or are here to ruin the game for their own amusement. Honestly, who DOES like dealing with those sorts of players? They can't be gotten rid of completely...but attracting them is a bit counter-productive, IMO.
NS is in my mind the most innovative game in existance right now. Combat isn't "simpler" as much as it takes all the things that makes NS great and removes them from play. Regardless of any bugs or balance issues, I'd far rather play a deathmatch game than a "debased" version of a rich, complex game. Of course, that's why I frequent "NS-only" servers.
I think my real question to you personally, Flayra, is what is the "goal" of combat? To get new blood into regular NS, or to market to the lowest-common-denominator in hopes of a broader appeal? (I know things like that are neccesary for full retail support and such, I'm just curious of your hopes with it)
Popularity isn't always a good thing....I think it depends a lot on who you're popular with.
Thanks to everyone for very well-thought out responses, I thought I was gonna get burned at the stake! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
One thing that I do love about combat is the training aspect - I have spent much more time learning to use the lerk than I ever had in classic. Once I feel I have lerk skilz I will move onto fade and so on.
Over time I think there will be very few people who purely play combat, they will either progress to the more strategic/penalising classic or dissapear. I could only take 2years of Dod and moved on <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDIT - and all for the better if the combat players don't dissapear. Flayra will have a solid playerbase to launch brand new NS or "other" creations onto.