<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 19 2004, 06:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 19 2004, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-MMZ>Torak+Feb 19 2004, 01:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Feb 19 2004, 01:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What advantage, intended or not, does a skulk gain from being shot by a marine? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know what kind of logic you apply here, but this question assumes there is an advantage to being bitten.
Which there is none of.
Carry on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The logic you fail to see, is when a marine gets knocked back across a room, it the places the marine in an advantageous position. It is further compounded by using that gained inertia to bunny hop one more time and have his range advantage all over again. All of this because he was bitten once by a skulk. Is there some similar position a skulk can get? Does shooting a jumping skulk actually heal the skulk? How about if you shoot a jumping skulk you actually give him res? Would that be good? No. So why is a jumping marine rewarded for allowing a skulk close enough to bite him? If knockback was removed, marines could continue their river-dancing to aviod skulks, but the skulk would not be penalised for scoring a hit by throwing a his target right back into an optimal position to shoot him again.
Al of this I thoroughly explained earlier, Did you just read until you found something you could make a witty retort to? Certainly looks that way.
<!--QuoteBegin-MMZ>Torak+Feb 19 2004, 08:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Feb 19 2004, 08:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 19 2004, 06:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 19 2004, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-MMZ>Torak+Feb 19 2004, 01:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Feb 19 2004, 01:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What advantage, intended or not, does a skulk gain from being shot by a marine? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know what kind of logic you apply here, but this question assumes there is an advantage to being bitten.
Which there is none of.
Carry on. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The logic you fail to see, is when a marine gets knocked back across a room, it the places the marine in an advantageous position. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's like saying the alien gets an advantage every time the marine fires his gun because he loses ammo from his gun and thus total damage power.
LoL. Look at every game that has ever had imbalances that were abused. Those who abuse it say its balanced because everyone can abuse, but that has to do with a personality disorder that "those people" have. Everyone wants to win, but "those people" take it to the extreme. They are so insecure in their own ability to compete on a level playing field that they will protect their abuse at all costs.
Bite push is stupid and it ruins atmosphere just like marine jump spaming, but im 100% positive that there must be a coding issue with removing it. I have the utmost confidence that flay is not so utterly retarded as to leave it in on purpose. Do i agree with all of flay balance choices? no, But hes not that stupid.
1. THIS TOPIC IS NOT ABOUT BUNNYHOPPING!! Like the very second post in the thread points out that the original poster got the name wrong, and is really talking about something else. So stop mentioning it!
2. Say what you want about Bite Push's balance, but it is definately atmospherically correct. As a marine, when I'm running happily along and suddenly get bitten out of nowhere, I actually FEEL like I'm getting bitten, because not only do I hear a biting sound, but I get pushed aside and unbalanced. I can only assume you're talking about the second type of push effect, where marine jumping velocity appears to combine with the bite push or something and result in a completely unintended jetpack-like flight (which, I reiterate, I have never seen).
if you gave skulks the ability to bite and cling to the marine shakeing and disorinting his veiw then i would agree with bite push.
if a bitten marines screen was hit with a CONC grenade like effect that lasted for atleast 1.5 seconds i would agree with bite push.
YOU "people" protest to the glory of realism when it benifits the implementation of bite-push but then scorn poeple for bringing up the lack of realism as an argument for bunny hoping. you make me angry.
if you were walkign down a hall and an alein jumped out and took a large chunk out of your back you would feel a "push" youd feel alot like DEAD.
Seriously I don't see how people could think taking knockback out would be good. Think about it. Think about how fast a skulk bites without focus. Now think about a marine thats just standing still in one spot. When the skulk makes the first attack, its over. Because the marine didn't move the quick *bite**bite* offed the marine easily. Ok then, lets fall back to the marine having a range advantage. We could say that the skulk killing the marine so fast was because he lost the range. Ok then, what about practically every ns map there is. There aren't as many areas that provide the range advantage for marines as you might think. Then theres the fact that a little dog-like creature that can leap across huge distances, hitting a marine in the chest while biting would probably knock him back a <i>little</i>, if not a few feet backward onto his ****. Even getting bit from anywhere would at least throw you off balance...
As long as it takes two bites to kill me at level 0 armor, I'm going to bunny hop to my hearts content to keep you from getting in that last bite. I think things are fine the way they are.
LoL. Look at every game that has ever had imbalances that were abused. Those who abuse it say its balanced because everyone can abuse, but that has to do with a personality disorder that "those people" have. Everyone wants to win, but "those people" take it to the extreme. They are so insecure in their own ability to compete on a level playing field that they will protect their abuse at all costs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How is bunny hopping abuse? It has been said to be part of the game and <i>not</i> an exploit by Flayra himself.
And as for the KB, games have been tested by skilled people over and over in the betas. Aliens were simply had the higher percentage in wins so things change.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's like saying the alien gets an advantage every time the marine fires his gun because he loses ammo from his gun and thus total damage power.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But firing a weapon doesn't move the skulk into an advantageous attack position while knockback does. A LMG isn't a mystical tractor beam that makes it easier for an alien to win the fight.
Torak isn't proposing that the hoppity marine be changed. His proposal is to remove the knockback effect that places aliens at a disadvantage for using a melee attack. I agree with him. I don't like that marines frolic about space stations like second grade schoolgirls, since it ruins the atmosphere, but if knockback is removed, it won't matter as much.
<!--QuoteBegin-The Finch+Feb 20 2004, 12:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Finch @ Feb 20 2004, 12:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's like saying the alien gets an advantage every time the marine fires his gun because he loses ammo from his gun and thus total damage power.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But firing a weapon doesn't move the skulk into an advantageous attack position while knockback does. A LMG isn't a mystical tractor beam that makes it easier for an alien to win the fight.
Torak isn't proposing that the hoppity marine be changed. His proposal is to remove the knockback effect that places aliens at a disadvantage for using a melee attack. I agree with him. I don't like that marines frolic about space stations like second grade schoolgirls, since it ruins the atmosphere, but if knockback is removed, it won't matter as much. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You knock the marine back, but he just got bit! You hit him. You hurt him. He is that much closer to dying. Don't try to tell me it's a disadavantage to BITE A MARINE. That is backwards logic.
Just like it is backwards logic to say the marine loses firepower whenever he fires at a skulk.
I don't know, never really had a problem with knockback as an alien. As for bunnyhopping, I thought it has been resolved: aliens get it, marines don't.
Anyway, it bears repeating: atmosphere/realism should take a backseat to gameplay and balance. If something is fun and balanced gameplaywise and also is realistic, cool, but if you have to choose, I'd generally go with the option that gives you better play. Remember, once you get used to the game, you simply don't notice the looks and unrealistic quirks of the game. You care about the balance.
<!--QuoteBegin-RandomEngy+Feb 20 2004, 01:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RandomEngy @ Feb 20 2004, 01:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for bunnyhopping, I thought it has been resolved: aliens get it, marines don't. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What!?
When a skulk jumps, he raises himself to gun-level with marines. When a marine jumps, he vanishes from skulks' view.
Bhopping rine = dodging Bhopping skulk = dead
The knockback is frusterating, and removed or not, I think 'rines should have some enticement not to hop everywhere. A stamina bar seems to much like CS/DoD though.
Maybe if you jump 3 feet straight up in combat armor, you should have your aim disturbed a *little bit?*
<!--QuoteBegin-Scuzball+Feb 20 2004, 06:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scuzball @ Feb 20 2004, 06:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe if you jump 3 feet straight up in combat armor, you should have your aim disturbed a *little bit?* <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nah, maybe it's one of thoe "It's the future" things, Maybe they have implants or something.
Hopping up and down to dodge does not count as bunny hopping. Thats just hopping. Bunny hopping is taking advantage of a weird quirk in HL physics to propel yourself forwards at twice your nomal running speed while hopping. That has been taken out for marines but left in for Aliens.
Now, Bunnyhopping has been discussed to death, resurrected, and discussed to death again in many other threads. Lets try to leave it out of this one. This is a thread about Knockback, ok?
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 20 2004, 05:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 20 2004, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You knock the marine back, but he just got bit! You hit him. You hurt him. He is that much closer to dying. Don't try to tell me it's a disadavantage to BITE A MARINE. That is backwards logic.
Just like it is backwards logic to say the marine loses firepower whenever he fires at a skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> For the slower members of the community <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
With knock back, you bite the marine, he gets thrown away from you, you chase him down and bite him again and he dies.
Without knock back, you bite the marine once, he stays where he is and you bite him again in quick succession and he dies.
In both situations the marine is moving around. With knockback, killing a marine takes longer. Without knockback, killing a marine is quicker. We all know that the quicker combat with a marine is, the higher the chances of the skulk surviving the encounter, unless he completely outmanouvers the marine and he runs out of bullets.
So to recap, knock back disadvantages skulks and helps marines by moving the marines away from the skulk when he is bitten, thus giving the marine more time to shoot at the skulk.
Just for the record - <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=39260&hl=knockback' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...60&hl=knockback</a>
About halfway down highlighted is the sentence re: knockback.
Fixing the onos' hitboxes needed to be done, and has required careful testing. I can't see why a proper attempt at removing knockback couldn't be made. I mean, at the end of the day you just add bites and/or swipes to the marine's effective health.
You would have to boost the gradual damage weapons such as spore to compensate. But that could be easily done by comparing the percentage of health it takes now off now and altering it's damage value to do the same percentage on any new marine health value.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->O Put back in knockback for bite, claws, gore and swipe (it affects balance too much to remove without careful testing).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Marine01+Feb 20 2004, 02:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Feb 20 2004, 02:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 20 2004, 05:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 20 2004, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You knock the marine back, but he just got bit! You hit him. You hurt him. He is that much closer to dying. Don't try to tell me it's a disadavantage to BITE A MARINE. That is backwards logic.
Just like it is backwards logic to say the marine loses firepower whenever he fires at a skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> For the slower members of the community <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
With knock back, you bite the marine, he gets thrown away from you, you chase him down and bite him again and he dies.
Without knock back, you bite the marine once, he stays where he is and you bite him again in quick succession and he dies.
In both situations the marine is moving around. With knockback, killing a marine takes longer. Without knockback, killing a marine is quicker. We all know that the quicker combat with a marine is, the higher the chances of the skulk surviving the encounter, unless he completely outmanouvers the marine and he runs out of bullets.
So to recap, knock back disadvantages skulks and helps marines by moving the marines away from the skulk when he is bitten, thus giving the marine more time to shoot at the skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There is no reasoning with people like this. None.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Electrification: it would require a HUGE power for an electrified res node to attack an alien from so far.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not necessarily. Have you ever seen lightning. It jumps through miles of air to reach the ground. Sure its alot of electricity but to jump a few feet as compared to on average 5280 feet hmm not that much electricity.
Anyway back on topic. I dont find bh to be too annoying. I can live with it. KB sucks though. I dont see how if a skulk wraps his mouth around someone and chomps, the guy is going to fly backwards. I just dont see it happenning. When lions bite an annelope it doesnt fly back away from the lion. Usually it gets drug to the ground.
No, inflicting damage upon an enemy isn't good for them. But what they mean is that in an environment with knockback, that bite is much more beneficial to the marine than a bite in an environment without knockback (due to the distance the bite can put between the marine and the skulk again).
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 21 2004, 12:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 21 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is no reasoning with people like this. None.
HURTING THE ENEMY != GIVING ADVANTAGES <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can someone please tell me if Forlorn is just kidding around, cause I'm trying to have a serious arguement here and to have someone being a jackass is kinda annoying.
You are kidding right, for the love of God dont tell me this is America's finest <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm going to assume that you are in fact quite slow and are not kidding around. Now go back, re read what I typed and attack each point arguementively. I'm sure if you ACTUALLY READ IT this time you'll have something relevant to contribute.
The way I see it there are two things that can correct the problem:
1) Remove knockback from bite, possibly increase marine armor slightly or decrease skulk attack speed slightly.
2) Put in a stamina bar (yes I know bad idea, I don't like this option either). This will keep the marine jumping to a minium, thereby limiting the circumstance that causes the flying knockback.
I am only concerned about knockback which results in the marine flying across the room, not the small shift in position that happens when you bite a marine that is not airborn.
<u>It is counter intuitive to have your attack remove your target from your attack range.</u>
I'll try one more analogy for Forlorn, since he seems rather lost about this discussion. What if the LMG had a limited range, and had knockback. Therefore when you shot a skulk you pushed it out of the range of the gun. Certainly, the answer wouldn't be "get better". Certainly people would be complaining.
Simply because it happens infrequently doesn't make it any less of a problem. I understand why it was put back in, "it affects balance too much to remove without careful testing". I say it is time for careful testing, and this is my reasoning:
<!--QuoteBegin-Sarisel+Feb 19 2004, 11:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sarisel @ Feb 19 2004, 11:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have perfected this skill to the point that I can now direct myself while flying from the skulk's bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(nothing personal Sarisel <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
This is not a skill that we need in this game. It is already hard enough to close with most marines, let's not continue to make it even harder by letting marines off the hook once they've allowed a skulk into range. I feel this is a problem as much as the "crouching marine, hidden hitbox" was pre 2.0.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The way I see it there are two things that can correct the problem:
1) Remove knockback from bite, possibly increase marine armor slightly or decrease skulk attack speed slightly.
2) Put in a stamina bar (yes I know bad idea, I don't like this option either). This will keep the marine jumping to a minium, thereby limiting the circumstance that causes the flying knockback.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The last time I heard him comment on it, Flayra said he wasn't all that keen on doing a stamina bar at all. So it would be removal of the knockback that would be our main option here.
However, I don't think marines need an armor boost in that case. Frankly, some marines need to smarten up and understand that the game can and WILL change, and that they MUST adapt to it or get owned.
'Knockack getting you owned? Then don't run off and rambo yourself into oblivion.'
Fades had to adapt to life without acid rocket in the early game, so I'm sure marines can adapt to no knockback.
Simply by their nature, marines have the advantage with their range weapons. That means unless you screw up, you should ALWAYS have the jump on an alien that attacks you.
In my opinion, knockback is just a poor excuse to compensate for marines who have poor skills and that won't adapt to a changing game.
Savant, I missed your voice of reason. So glad to see you posting again. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Feb 20 2004, 12:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Feb 20 2004, 12:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That means unless you screw up, you should ALWAYS have the jump on an alien that attacks you.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats funny considering *random percentage of all ns maps I just made up* of all ns maps give aliens a huge advantage over a marines range advantage. Unless you know exactly where every skulk is hiding in the next room, you can't really do much can you? You can try to make them come to you so you can shoot from a distance, but exactly how likely is that with intelligent players... Not to mention, you can't just wait somewhere to always have your advantage, you have to move through those likely to die areas to finish orders. I fail to see your logic on this.
I would also like to point-out that knock back doesent happen every time you bite, more of the less skilled people I bite tend to no fly away. So its more of an advantage to vet players. So it will only really affect them anyways. So if your an advanced player you shouldnt need the extra edge to win, you should already be prepared for when that skulk comes.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-MMZ>Torak+Feb 20 2004, 10:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Feb 20 2004, 10:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The way I see it there are two things that can correct the problem:
1) Remove knockback from bite, possibly increase marine armor slightly or decrease skulk attack speed slightly.
2) Put in a stamina bar (yes I know bad idea, I don't like this option either). This will keep the marine jumping to a minium, thereby limiting the circumstance that causes the flying knockback.
I am only concerned about knockback which results in the marine flying across the room, not the small shift in position that happens when you bite a marine that is not airborn.
<u>It is counter intuitive to have your attack remove your target from your attack range.</u>
I'll try one more analogy for Forlorn, since he seems rather lost about this discussion. What if the LMG had a limited range, and had knockback. Therefore when you shot a skulk you pushed it out of the range of the gun. Certainly, the answer wouldn't be "get better". Certainly people would be complaining.
Simply because it happens infrequently doesn't make it any less of a problem. I understand why it was put back in, "it affects balance too much to remove without careful testing". I say it is time for careful testing, and this is my reasoning:
<!--QuoteBegin-Sarisel+Feb 19 2004, 11:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sarisel @ Feb 19 2004, 11:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have perfected this skill to the point that I can now direct myself while flying from the skulk's bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(nothing personal Sarisel <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
This is not a skill that we need in this game. It is already hard enough to close with most marines, let's not continue to make it even harder by letting marines off the hook once they've allowed a skulk into range. I feel this is a problem as much as the "crouching marine, hidden hitbox" was pre 2.0. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I was being sarcastic.
Comments
I don't know what kind of logic you apply here, but this question assumes there is an advantage to being bitten.
Which there is none of.
Carry on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The logic you fail to see, is when a marine gets knocked back across a room, it the places the marine in an advantageous position. It is further compounded by using that gained inertia to bunny hop one more time and have his range advantage all over again. All of this because he was bitten once by a skulk. Is there some similar position a skulk can get? Does shooting a jumping skulk actually heal the skulk? How about if you shoot a jumping skulk you actually give him res? Would that be good? No. So why is a jumping marine rewarded for allowing a skulk close enough to bite him? If knockback was removed, marines could continue their river-dancing to aviod skulks, but the skulk would not be penalised for scoring a hit by throwing a his target right back into an optimal position to shoot him again.
Al of this I thoroughly explained earlier, Did you just read until you found something you could make a witty retort to? Certainly looks that way.
Carry on.
I don't know what kind of logic you apply here, but this question assumes there is an advantage to being bitten.
Which there is none of.
Carry on. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The logic you fail to see, is when a marine gets knocked back across a room, it the places the marine in an advantageous position. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's like saying the alien gets an advantage every time the marine fires his gun because he loses ammo from his gun and thus total damage power.
bunny hopping ruins atmosphere? yes.
LoL. Look at every game that has ever had imbalances that were abused. Those who abuse it say its balanced because everyone can abuse, but that has to do with a personality disorder that "those people" have. Everyone wants to win, but "those people" take it to the extreme. They are so insecure in their own ability to compete on a level playing field that they will protect their abuse at all costs.
Bite push is stupid and it ruins atmosphere just like marine jump spaming, but im 100% positive that there must be a coding issue with removing it. I have the utmost confidence that flay is not so utterly retarded as to leave it in on purpose.
Do i agree with all of flay balance choices? no, But hes not that stupid.
2. Say what you want about Bite Push's balance, but it is definately atmospherically correct. As a marine, when I'm running happily along and suddenly get bitten out of nowhere, I actually FEEL like I'm getting bitten, because not only do I hear a biting sound, but I get pushed aside and unbalanced. I can only assume you're talking about the second type of push effect, where marine jumping velocity appears to combine with the bite push or something and result in a completely unintended jetpack-like flight (which, I reiterate, I have never seen).
if a bitten marines screen was hit with a CONC grenade like effect that lasted for atleast 1.5 seconds i would agree with bite push.
YOU "people" protest to the glory of realism when it benifits the implementation of bite-push but then scorn poeple for bringing up the lack of realism as an argument for bunny hoping. you make me angry.
if you were walkign down a hall and an alein jumped out and took a large chunk out of your back you would feel a "push" youd feel alot like DEAD.
sereinity NOW!!!! SEREINITY NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As long as it takes two bites to kill me at level 0 armor, I'm going to bunny hop to my hearts content to keep you from getting in that last bite. I think things are fine the way they are.
bunny hopping ruins atmosphere? yes.
LoL. Look at every game that has ever had imbalances that were abused. Those who abuse it say its balanced because everyone can abuse, but that has to do with a personality disorder that "those people" have. Everyone wants to win, but "those people" take it to the extreme. They are so insecure in their own ability to compete on a level playing field that they will protect their abuse at all costs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is bunny hopping abuse? It has been said to be part of the game and <i>not</i> an exploit by Flayra himself.
And as for the KB, games have been tested by skilled people over and over in the betas. Aliens were simply had the higher percentage in wins so things change.
But firing a weapon doesn't move the skulk into an advantageous attack position while knockback does. A LMG isn't a mystical tractor beam that makes it easier for an alien to win the fight.
Torak isn't proposing that the hoppity marine be changed. His proposal is to remove the knockback effect that places aliens at a disadvantage for using a melee attack. I agree with him. I don't like that marines frolic about space stations like second grade schoolgirls, since it ruins the atmosphere, but if knockback is removed, it won't matter as much.
But firing a weapon doesn't move the skulk into an advantageous attack position while knockback does. A LMG isn't a mystical tractor beam that makes it easier for an alien to win the fight.
Torak isn't proposing that the hoppity marine be changed. His proposal is to remove the knockback effect that places aliens at a disadvantage for using a melee attack. I agree with him. I don't like that marines frolic about space stations like second grade schoolgirls, since it ruins the atmosphere, but if knockback is removed, it won't matter as much. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You knock the marine back, but he just got bit! You hit him. You hurt him. He is that much closer to dying. Don't try to tell me it's a disadavantage to BITE A MARINE. That is backwards logic.
Just like it is backwards logic to say the marine loses firepower whenever he fires at a skulk.
Anyway, it bears repeating: atmosphere/realism should take a backseat to gameplay and balance. If something is fun and balanced gameplaywise and also is realistic, cool, but if you have to choose, I'd generally go with the option that gives you better play. Remember, once you get used to the game, you simply don't notice the looks and unrealistic quirks of the game. You care about the balance.
What!?
When a skulk jumps, he raises himself to gun-level with marines.
When a marine jumps, he vanishes from skulks' view.
Bhopping rine = dodging
Bhopping skulk = dead
The knockback is frusterating, and removed or not, I think 'rines should have some enticement not to hop everywhere. A stamina bar seems to much like CS/DoD though.
Maybe if you jump 3 feet straight up in combat armor, you should have your aim disturbed a *little bit?*
Nah, maybe it's one of thoe "It's the future" things, Maybe they have implants or something.
Now, Bunnyhopping has been discussed to death, resurrected, and discussed to death again in many other threads. Lets try to leave it out of this one. This is a thread about Knockback, ok?
Just like it is backwards logic to say the marine loses firepower whenever he fires at a skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the slower members of the community <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
With knock back, you bite the marine, he gets thrown away from you, you chase him down and bite him again and he dies.
Without knock back, you bite the marine once, he stays where he is and you bite him again in quick succession and he dies.
In both situations the marine is moving around. With knockback, killing a marine takes longer. Without knockback, killing a marine is quicker. We all know that the quicker combat with a marine is, the higher the chances of the skulk surviving the encounter, unless he completely outmanouvers the marine and he runs out of bullets.
So to recap, knock back disadvantages skulks and helps marines by moving the marines away from the skulk when he is bitten, thus giving the marine more time to shoot at the skulk.
About halfway down highlighted is the sentence re: knockback.
You would have to boost the gradual damage weapons such as spore to compensate. But that could be easily done by comparing the percentage of health it takes now off now and altering it's damage value to do the same percentage on any new marine health value.
Thats from the beta 3.0 change log.
Just like it is backwards logic to say the marine loses firepower whenever he fires at a skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the slower members of the community <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
With knock back, you bite the marine, he gets thrown away from you, you chase him down and bite him again and he dies.
Without knock back, you bite the marine once, he stays where he is and you bite him again in quick succession and he dies.
In both situations the marine is moving around. With knockback, killing a marine takes longer. Without knockback, killing a marine is quicker. We all know that the quicker combat with a marine is, the higher the chances of the skulk surviving the encounter, unless he completely outmanouvers the marine and he runs out of bullets.
So to recap, knock back disadvantages skulks and helps marines by moving the marines away from the skulk when he is bitten, thus giving the marine more time to shoot at the skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no reasoning with people like this. None.
HURTING THE ENEMY != GIVING ADVANTAGES
Not necessarily. Have you ever seen lightning. It jumps through miles of air to reach the ground. Sure its alot of electricity but to jump a few feet as compared to on average 5280 feet hmm not that much electricity.
Anyway back on topic. I dont find bh to be too annoying. I can live with it. KB sucks though. I dont see how if a skulk wraps his mouth around someone and chomps, the guy is going to fly backwards. I just dont see it happenning. When lions bite an annelope it doesnt fly back away from the lion. Usually it gets drug to the ground.
HURTING THE ENEMY != GIVING ADVANTAGES <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can someone please tell me if Forlorn is just kidding around, cause I'm trying to have a serious arguement here and to have someone being a jackass is kinda annoying.
You are kidding right, for the love of God dont tell me this is America's finest <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm going to assume that you are in fact quite slow and are not kidding around. Now go back, re read what I typed and attack each point arguementively. I'm sure if you ACTUALLY READ IT this time you'll have something relevant to contribute.
1) Remove knockback from bite, possibly increase marine armor slightly or decrease skulk attack speed slightly.
2) Put in a stamina bar (yes I know bad idea, I don't like this option either). This will keep the marine jumping to a minium, thereby limiting the circumstance that causes the flying knockback.
I am only concerned about knockback which results in the marine flying across the room, not the small shift in position that happens when you bite a marine that is not airborn.
<u>It is counter intuitive to have your attack remove your target from your attack range.</u>
I'll try one more analogy for Forlorn, since he seems rather lost about this discussion. What if the LMG had a limited range, and had knockback. Therefore when you shot a skulk you pushed it out of the range of the gun. Certainly, the answer wouldn't be "get better". Certainly people would be complaining.
Simply because it happens infrequently doesn't make it any less of a problem. I understand why it was put back in, "it affects balance too much to remove without careful testing". I say it is time for careful testing, and this is my reasoning:
<!--QuoteBegin-Sarisel+Feb 19 2004, 11:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sarisel @ Feb 19 2004, 11:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have perfected this skill to the point that I can now direct myself while flying from the skulk's bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(nothing personal Sarisel <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
This is not a skill that we need in this game. It is already hard enough to close with most marines, let's not continue to make it even harder by letting marines off the hook once they've allowed a skulk into range. I feel this is a problem as much as the "crouching marine, hidden hitbox" was pre 2.0.
1) Remove knockback from bite, possibly increase marine armor slightly or decrease skulk attack speed slightly.
2) Put in a stamina bar (yes I know bad idea, I don't like this option either). This will keep the marine jumping to a minium, thereby limiting the circumstance that causes the flying knockback.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The last time I heard him comment on it, Flayra said he wasn't all that keen on doing a stamina bar at all. So it would be removal of the knockback that would be our main option here.
However, I don't think marines need an armor boost in that case. Frankly, some marines need to smarten up and understand that the game can and WILL change, and that they MUST adapt to it or get owned.
'Knockack getting you owned? Then don't run off and rambo yourself into oblivion.'
Fades had to adapt to life without acid rocket in the early game, so I'm sure marines can adapt to no knockback.
Simply by their nature, marines have the advantage with their range weapons. That means unless you screw up, you should ALWAYS have the jump on an alien that attacks you.
In my opinion, knockback is just a poor excuse to compensate for marines who have poor skills and that won't adapt to a changing game.
Regards,
Savant
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats funny considering *random percentage of all ns maps I just made up* of all ns maps give aliens a huge advantage over a marines range advantage. Unless you know exactly where every skulk is hiding in the next room, you can't really do much can you? You can try to make them come to you so you can shoot from a distance, but exactly how likely is that with intelligent players... Not to mention, you can't just wait somewhere to always have your advantage, you have to move through those likely to die areas to finish orders. I fail to see your logic on this.
So if your an advanced player you shouldnt need the extra edge to win, you should already be prepared for when that skulk comes.
1) Remove knockback from bite, possibly increase marine armor slightly or decrease skulk attack speed slightly.
2) Put in a stamina bar (yes I know bad idea, I don't like this option either). This will keep the marine jumping to a minium, thereby limiting the circumstance that causes the flying knockback.
I am only concerned about knockback which results in the marine flying across the room, not the small shift in position that happens when you bite a marine that is not airborn.
<u>It is counter intuitive to have your attack remove your target from your attack range.</u>
I'll try one more analogy for Forlorn, since he seems rather lost about this discussion. What if the LMG had a limited range, and had knockback. Therefore when you shot a skulk you pushed it out of the range of the gun. Certainly, the answer wouldn't be "get better". Certainly people would be complaining.
Simply because it happens infrequently doesn't make it any less of a problem. I understand why it was put back in, "it affects balance too much to remove without careful testing". I say it is time for careful testing, and this is my reasoning:
<!--QuoteBegin-Sarisel+Feb 19 2004, 11:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sarisel @ Feb 19 2004, 11:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have perfected this skill to the point that I can now direct myself while flying from the skulk's bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(nothing personal Sarisel <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
This is not a skill that we need in this game. It is already hard enough to close with most marines, let's not continue to make it even harder by letting marines off the hook once they've allowed a skulk into range. I feel this is a problem as much as the "crouching marine, hidden hitbox" was pre 2.0. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was being sarcastic.