<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was being sarcastic. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sarcastic or not, I've used the Knockback advantage just as you outlined it. Granted, its more due to luck, but getting knocked back across the room has saved my life more than once.
I think knockback should only apply to the higher lifeforms, the Onos and Fade. They are large enough and would have the strength to their attack to knock back a marine. However a skulk is similar to a medium/large sized dog, like a Doberman. Now if a Doberman attacks a human, it bites and latches on to its prey. You don't go flying.
In short, Knockback with Onos/Fade good, atmospheric. Knockback with Skulks/Lerk not good, not atmospheric.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In short, Knockback with Onos/Fade good, atmospheric. Knockback with Skulks/Lerk not good, not atmospheric.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, knockback isn't "atmospheric" for fades. Their scythes seem designed to draw the victim in like insect mandables. If anything, fades should get a negative knockback - a "knock-in".
<!--QuoteBegin-Daxx22+Feb 21 2004, 01:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Daxx22 @ Feb 21 2004, 01:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> However a skulk is similar to a medium/large sized dog, like a Doberman. Now if a Doberman attacks a human, it bites and latches on to its prey. You don't go flying. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As a veterinary nurse with 2 years experience, thats not true.
A Doby with speed behind him can and will send you flying. I've been witness to two entertaining spectacles involving vets, large dogs and aerodynamics.
EDIT
I agree with Majin - it probably wont be balanced, but from a "realism" standpoint, you should get the hug of death.
DoD-type stamina bar actually sounds pretty good, as that'd allow another peeve of mine to be addressed - never liked how aliens get tired of biting but a marine can slash all day long, and a stamina bar could logically be reduced very slightly per slash. And of course it'd keep marines from repeatedly jumping right out of skulks' views, which certainly is irritating and somewhat theme-breaking.
Actually, assuming knifing wouldn't actually get changed, the stamina bar could simply be the jetpack bar. That would be incredibly easy to get used to.
Knockback has never been a problem for me as marine or alien. As marine I just backwards and shoot the buggers before I get hit. As alien always keep the side and behind the marine, constantly moving around and bite him straight again.
Wow. As a skulk, look up a bit as you attack. Move to the sides of the Marine. circle strafe. Problem solved. It really isn't all that hard. Besides, if skulks didn't knock Marines back, then Marines would die instantaneously. The skulk could jump at their head, bite, then finish the second bite on their way down. Just learn how to play with it and you'll be ok.
<!--QuoteBegin-Marine01+Feb 21 2004, 02:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Feb 21 2004, 02:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Daxx22+Feb 21 2004, 01:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Daxx22 @ Feb 21 2004, 01:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> However a skulk is similar to a medium/large sized dog, like a Doberman. Now if a Doberman attacks a human, it bites and latches on to its prey. You don't go flying. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As a veterinary nurse with 2 years experience, thats not true.
A Doby with speed behind him can and will send you flying. I've been witness to two entertaining spectacles involving vets, large dogs and aerodynamics.
EDIT
I agree with Majin - it probably wont be balanced, but from a "realism" standpoint, you should get the hug of death. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Heh, well I tend to avoid dogs, so I was just making an assumption. Still, I think the point still stands. It makes more 'sense' for the Onos to have knockback, but not a skulk. I could see Leap having a knockback factor, but not bite.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
Impact melee weapons generally prevent your opponent from backing off due to the gory delights of suction and friction. But that's beside the point.
What knockback does is reward skill and reduce the value of tactics in an engagement, in a similar manner to your first round being exactly on target in CS.
The debate here, if you wish to call it such, is really about those two opposing schools. The most skilled Veterans wish to keep knockback in because it adds more to the marine in terms of raw FPS skill. This is essential to most Veteran players as they have just as much or even less tactical skill than most community members. There are notable exceptions, Folorn for example, but the above statement is generally true.
On the other hand, most community members FPS skill pales in comparison to Veterans, who can own them up in a straight twitch-reflex battle all day. Since they comparatively suck at FPS, they want to be rewarded for out-thinking Veterans, which is vastly easier, since they find more time to do things like reading, rather than honing their air control. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What it boils down to in terms of gameplay:
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'><span style='font-family:Impact'>Skill versus brains.</span></span></span>
It is either down to Flayra, or should he wish to put it to the vote, the community, to decide which one should have more emphasis placed upon it. Personally, I think most community players play NS because it rewards thought. Certainly, that's what initially attracted me to volunteer to test.
However, neither side is "right" and both sides have their respective merits. I'd like to see NS played as more of a squad level combat game, but currently it is closer to Tribes 2 than it is to any realism style mod.
Adding an accuracy penalty based on movement would counter-act this issue to a certain degree. Flayra has suggested that recoil may be implemented at a later date, which may address the issue without requiring the addition of knockback.
My personal <i>feeling</i> on the matter?
I loathe anything that rewards bunny-hopping because it is an exercise in keyboard mashing and has actually now given me such bad RSI in my left hand that I've had to take up being owned by smurfs on Battlenet to rest my thumb. Since a large proportion of NS players (comparitively to other games) are geriatric like me, I think they'd also like to see the back of it. Also aesthetically it offends me by comparison to the beauty of movement in Quake 3 and in terms of the game world.
Well put. I'm personally for Brains and Skill, but if I had to choose one over the other, I'd take the less skilled marine whos smart about his movements and can work as a team over the uber elite rambo.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Feb 21 2004, 08:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Feb 21 2004, 08:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The most skilled Veterans wish to keep knockback in because it adds more to the marine in terms of raw FPS skill. This is essential to most Veteran players as they have just as much or even less tactical skill than most community members. There are notable exceptions, Folorn for example, but the above statement is generally true. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see how you can possibly justify this statement in any manner. How is it possible that the players who play NS purely as a recreational activity could possibly have <b>more</b> or what you're calling brains than the people that play is competitively. In a high level scrim or match, where the two teams are about even in terms of pure FPS twitch experience, the team that ends up winning will be the one with the superior strat, but, more importantly, it will be the team that outsmarts and plays more intelligently than the other team. And that, by the way, is tactics.
Sorry, but to me knockback only serves to highlight LACK of skill. If a person needs knockback in the game then they are saying they have little or no skill and they want the game to compensate for that.
If a skulk gets the jump on you then THEY are showing superior skill. Why should we reward marine incompetence by adding a 'failsafe' for marines to get a second chance at killing the skulk they failed to kill the first time? It makes no sense.
Do marines sometimes get owned when there is no knockback? You're DAMN right they do, and they <b>should</b> get owned. If you go running off alone then I have no sympathy for you should you get killed.
Marines have range weapons, and that means they should have the advantage in literally every encounter. In my opinion, knockback is a poor excuse for poor marine skills.
All that is needed to 'fix' this is to take knockback out and let people LEARN how to play without a safety net. I'm sure they'll manage.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-Berger+Feb 22 2004, 03:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Berger @ Feb 22 2004, 03:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Feb 21 2004, 08:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Feb 21 2004, 08:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The most skilled Veterans wish to keep knockback in because it adds more to the marine in terms of raw FPS skill. This is essential to most Veteran players as they have just as much or even less tactical skill than most community members. There are notable exceptions, Folorn for example, but the above statement is generally true. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see how you can possibly justify this statement in any manner. How is it possible that the players who play NS purely as a recreational activity could possibly have <b>more</b> or what you're calling brains than the people that play is competitively. In a high level scrim or match, where the two teams are about even in terms of pure FPS twitch experience, the team that ends up winning will be the one with the superior strat, but, more importantly, it will be the team that outsmarts and plays more intelligently than the other team. And that, by the way, is tactics. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually that, by the way, is strategy.
I was talking about tactics.
Using the two different terms interchangeably when they mean different things highlights my point nicely. Thanks. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
strategy : The science and art of military command as applied to the overall planning and conduct of large-scale combat operations.
tactics : The military science that deals with securing objectives set by strategy, especially the technique of deploying and directing troops, ships, and aircraft in effective maneuvers against an enemy
This thread is about knockback, and as such, it has no correlation whatsoever to strategy. It is something that can only have an effect on small scale battles, not the outcome of the entire match.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but, more importantly, it will be the team that outsmarts and plays more intelligently than the other team. And that, by the way, is tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be tactics. "Playing intelligently" obviously refers to proper positioning, pack hunting, and flanking maneuvres. This is tactics, not strategy. Strategy is the general plan for winning the round. Here's an example. Forlorn, who you mentioned as a veteran you respect, will tell anyone who asks about his new strategy of dropping MCs for the first hive and using lerks with celerity to contain the marines and hold until larger lifeforms can come into play.
It didn't seem as if either of you were very clear as to which you were referring (strats or tactics).
Both should be emphasised. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
However, marines were *supposed* to (according to documents and posts before NS was released) get owned if they moved out alone or with care. Aliens were supposed to be the team with a high twitch-factor reponse.
Sadly, the atmosphere of those early games has been lost completely. I blame: Sensory providing no offensive benefits. (I mean attacking marine structures / bases).
Motion tracking removes almost all fear of ambush for marines.
Knockback gives second chance even if you blunder into an ambush.
Balance (in terms of overall wins and losses, not game phases) has been emphasised *before* game-phase balance and atmosphere.
People claim that NS is growing all the time, but it seems to have reached a fairly stable community size. The currently players oppose changes because they have developed playing styles specifically taylored to the current game. Other players don't like that playing style so they enjoy one of the countless OTHER games in the market. So, in order to keep the current players (esp. clans) happy, we alienate many more potential players. =(
Please note that I like NS a lot. I became a constie well before there was any incentive more then showing support (and getting a cool icon).
here is a quote from the offical ns story six days in sanjii
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but in hyper-alert mode - which for a marine isn't just a state of mind, it's a state of biotech. Nano-glands had been regulating our adrenaline since the incident at the vent, keeping watch for any sign of muscle fatigue, and loading our blood with super-coagulants, nutrients, and other goodies we probably didn't even know about. We wouldn't be feeling the effects of pushing ourselves past the limits of sleep and endurance for a couple of days yet. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As u can see if u went by the story marines should beable to bunny hop as the nanonites in thier system would at the first sign of muscle fatigue load the blood up with stuff to keep the marine going. But to balance the game the marine shouldnt have the ability to gain speed from jumping but should still be allowed to keep jumping for aslong as the want. Adding a stamina bar to the game would totally mess up the story of ns and not make it seem futuristic.
I just think that something needs to be done, either removing KB or making the aim worse in some way, either by recoil or my simply making the marine aim at the cieling when the marines gets biten..
I hope Flay will do something radical in the next patch.
The day this game gets recoil is the day myself and many others quit. KB looks stupid. It helps, but it LOOKS stupid. I don't see the logic behind a skulk bite throwing a marine back 20 feet.
Recoil would be actually a great feature, if it was only used as an improvement to current aim and not otherwise. Good aiming would be encouraged that way, while keeping the fire button pressed would just result in the same spread as it is in the current version... Flayra was thinking about that for quite a long time now, I hope we can try this out some time soon
I think that would be really nice eggmac. Not real recoil, which would be the actual axial movement of the crosshair when you shoot, but adjusted spread based on how long you hold down the button. This would encourage burst-firing on skulks and lerks, and a more panicky-feeling holding down of the fire button when fades or onos showed up. But no actual recoil, that would just mess things up.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mintman+Feb 20 2004, 06:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mintman @ Feb 20 2004, 06:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can't see why a proper attempt at removing knockback couldn't be made. I mean, at the end of the day you just add bites and/or swipes to the marine's effective health.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> We tried that before, it was auto-death when a skulk got a close.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rennex+Feb 22 2004, 08:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rennex @ Feb 22 2004, 08:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Mintman+Feb 20 2004, 06:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mintman @ Feb 20 2004, 06:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can't see why a proper attempt at removing knockback couldn't be made. I mean, at the end of the day you just add bites and/or swipes to the marine's effective health.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We tried that before, it was auto-death when a skulk got a close. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Isn't that the way it's supposed to be? The marine is supposed to be dead if the skulks is close-up, and the skulk should be helpless at long-range. I find it rediciously easy to kill skulks now if the shotgun just work as its supposed to (sometimes the hits wont register).
***EDIT: Why not try to remove KB, and make skulks bite-radio smaller, maybe like in 1.04. I find it rediciously big now anyway...
I'm not sure if you're justified in making those assumptions, Grendel, but I'd like a game that emphasizes "brains", as you call it, more than "skills."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The day this game gets recoil is the day myself and many others quit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When somebody says recoil, the first thing that jumps to halflife players' minds is CS-style recoil. I'm VERY SURE that that's not what Flayra has in mind.
You know, the flying-through-the-air-20-feet knockback that is the subject of most complaints seems more like a bug than a feature, and how many people here would actually prefer to keep that in? I am adamantly in favor of keeping standard knockback, but if the devs can figure out how to remove that buggy aerial knockback without touching normal KB, would that be OK with you guys?
I can only speak for myself but I don't want to see knockback in the game at all. There is no reason to give marines a second chance at life or penalizing an alien because they did a good job in surprizing a marine.
With OCs costing too much for aliens to drop in the early game, this is yet another reason that aliens SHOULD be more successful in melee battles. Marines are owning the game far to much of late, and anyone who wants to dispute this is free to back it up with actual stats. I've been making notes and the marines are consistently killing aliens at least 50-200% more often than aliens are killing marines. (in classic)
Knockback makes as much sense as the knife doing 30 damage vs aliens. (don't get me started on how stupid that is - if you want to give a knife damage bonus vs buildings, that fine, but a 30 damage melee weapon for marines is just plain wrong on so many levels)
If knockback is removed, people WILL adapt. Yes they will get owned in the beginning, but if they don't adapt they will lose. The repeated raping of the alien's weapons and armor systems is getting rediculous, we don't need to add any marine advantages to it. The game is easy enough for the marines as it is.
Knockback is practically the only way a marine can surrive a close range encounter. The other way is to have enough teammates backing him up so that when the skulk drops on him, the skulk then dies fast enough so the marine won't be killed first.
Don't say that "The skulks should win in any close range encounter!" This is simple-minded thinking and it brings this discussion <b>nowhere</b>. I mean, think about it, how hard is it to bring marines into close range? You name a map, and I can name several locations where skulks litterally can drop onto a marine's head from a vent, or from a courner in a small hallway, and the poor marine has no chance to stop it. Knockback simply means that if the skulk wishes to kill the marine, he can't just look at the marine and hold down the +attack button for .75 seconds to kill the marine, he actually have to <b>move</b> with him, <b>track</b> him, and actually play the game more than just hold down the +attack button.
NS without knockback would be extreamlly gimped, simply put. Skulks can stay around a small hallway or courner be guarenteed a kill? What kind of crappy gameplay do you guys want?
Next, realizing that knockback is in the game to <b>make up for the lack of complexity in the NS maps themselves,</b> I would like to state how knockback does become slightly imbalanced.
Once marines get armor upgrades, they get 3, 4 bites each complete with nice little knockback. This is extreamlly frustrating for a hive 1 skulk, as it becomes extreamlly tough to kill good marines who not only take more abuse, but also can use it to their advantage.
If I were to make any changes to knockback, I would make it so the force applied to a marine's knockback is <i>slightly</i> lessened with each armor upgrade he gets. If you want gameplay reasoning for this, it is because it becomes extreamlly difficult for a skulk, yes, even a good one, to land 3 bites on a marine who is constantly being pushed back a bit. This would be a very common situation, a hive 1 skulk versus a lv. 1 armor marine. The in game 'story' reasoning behind this is that with each armor upgrade, the marine is less meaneverable.
It wouldn't have to be a big reduction in how much less knockback he gets from being bitten; maybe just a few in game inches, but by the time the marine has lv. 3 armor he should be noticably less bouncy than a lv. 0 armor marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can only speak for myself but I don't want to see knockback in the game at all. There is no reason to give marines a second chance at life or penalizing an alien because they did a good job in surprising a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well Savant, you've been speaking for me since this thread started, you've been well spoken, concise, and reasonable all the way through. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The fact that <i>some</i> people don't get what you're saying about KB beats the heck outta me, you've simply put it like it is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines are owning the game far to much of late, and anyone who wants to dispute this is free to back it up with actual stats.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would avoid this point in general and stick to the senselessness of KB. No matter which side b3.0 favors KB should be dealt with as a matter of NS logic. The fundamental NS logic that KB defies is;
<u>Marines are given a second chance at life when they being attacked in a situation which the Aliens were <b>designed</b> to excel at, melee.</u>
I realize KB has been removed before, and I realized it resulted in harsh marine ownage, but adapting to the removal of KB will be no more difficult then when the aliens had to adapt to the multitude of major changes that have been implement over the 3 versions.
Flayra, stop babying the Marines and let them live the reality which you intended for the NS world.
Marines = Range Specialists Aliens = Melee Specialists
They will adapt or perish... this is <b>Natural Selection</b>.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 22 2004, 07:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 22 2004, 07:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fantasmo, that is some seriously weak reasoning, did you even read my post?
All aliens need to win is melee? Just camp a chokepoint and it's an instant gg marines, please no gimped NS ty. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hardly. If you know about these chookepoints you simply toss a grenade into the area then go in, or get motiontracking, or call for a scanner sweep. It's not as cut and dried as you think. Furthermore, if marines <b>know</b> they are going to get owned if a skulk gets close, they will <b>have</b> to move together. It will make rambo's nearly obsolete, it will enforce squad tatics, and it puts the stealth back into aliens. Downside? Marines have to adapt.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 22 2004, 07:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 22 2004, 07:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Knockback is practically the only way a marine can surrive a close range encounter. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Correction, as you note below, the word you are missing here is <b>SOLO</b>. Yes, a solo marine is usually SOL if he gets surprized by an alien, and you know what? <b>That's too damn bad.</b> They should suck it up, stop complaining, and when they respawn they shouldn't rambo off on their own so it doesn't happen again. End of story.<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The other way is to have enough teammates backing him up so that when the skulk drops on him, the skulk then dies fast enough so the marine won't be killed first.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->By George I think he's got it!!! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> Yes Forlorn, that <b>*IS*</b> the answer to getting owned by skulks. Now all that needs to be done is to put this into practice. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't say that "The skulks should win in any close range encounter!" This is simple-minded thinking and it brings this discussion <b>nowhere</b>. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You can call it 'simple-minded' or any of any of another hundred adjectives, but the fact of the matter is that <b>it is a valid observation.</b>
Long range encounter = advantage marines Melee range encounter= advantage aliens
Yes, it's that simple, and even Flayra has said he agrees with this point in principle. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I mean, think about it, how hard is it to bring marines into close range? You name a map, and I can name several locations where skulks litterally can drop onto a marine's head from a vent, or from a courner in a small hallway, and the poor marine has no chance to stop it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Your point is? Are you suggesting that there should NEVER be a point in maps where marines are at risk? Why not just HAND the marines the win and be done with it. There is no map that the marines can't get to a point if they bring backup. If there is such an area where this is an issue to the point where the map is unbalanced, then that is a MAP issue and not a GAME issue.<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Knockback simply means that if the skulk wishes to kill the marine, he can't just look at the marine and hold down the +attack button for .75 seconds to kill the marine, he actually have to move with him, track him, and actually play the game more than just hold down the +attack button.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You don't play aliens much, do you? The actual killing of a marine is only a small part of the whole. GETTING within melee range is the hard part. Going in for the kill is the final act, and even then a kill is not guaranteed depending on the area where the attack is taking place. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS without knockback would be extreamlly gimped, simply put. Skulks can stay around a small hallway or courner be guarenteed a kill? What kind of crappy gameplay do you guys want?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->There are no guarantees of kills, as compared to a marine that camps against a wall in a large room or corner hallwall and cannot be killed by low end aliens. If you were to compare the number of points where marines could camp for "guaranteed kills" and where the aliens could camp for "guaranteed kills" then you would find there are FAR more marine friendly points then there are alien friendly points. That's the nature of the game. Aliens are aboard human stations and as such the layouts are more suited to marines than aliens.
Right now knockback takes away any incentive for marines to work together. Just rambo off on their own and count on good 'ole knockback to save their butt every time. Weak, seriously weak.
If people learned to play as teams instead of complaining about getting owned when they are off running solo then we could focus on bigger issues instead of nerfing the game to oblivion with cheap additions like knockback.
Comments
Sarcastic or not, I've used the Knockback advantage just as you outlined it. Granted, its more due to luck, but getting knocked back across the room has saved my life more than once.
I think knockback should only apply to the higher lifeforms, the Onos and Fade. They are large enough and would have the strength to their attack to knock back a marine. However a skulk is similar to a medium/large sized dog, like a Doberman. Now if a Doberman attacks a human, it bites and latches on to its prey. You don't go flying.
In short, Knockback with Onos/Fade good, atmospheric. Knockback with Skulks/Lerk not good, not atmospheric.
Actually, knockback isn't "atmospheric" for fades. Their scythes seem designed to draw the victim in like insect mandables. If anything, fades should get a negative knockback - a "knock-in".
As a veterinary nurse with 2 years experience, thats not true.
A Doby with speed behind him can and will send you flying. I've been witness to two entertaining spectacles involving vets, large dogs and aerodynamics.
EDIT
I agree with Majin - it probably wont be balanced, but from a "realism" standpoint, you should get the hug of death.
DoD-type stamina bar actually sounds pretty good, as that'd allow another peeve of mine to be addressed - never liked how aliens get tired of biting but a marine can slash all day long, and a stamina bar could logically be reduced very slightly per slash. And of course it'd keep marines from repeatedly jumping right out of skulks' views, which certainly is irritating and somewhat theme-breaking.
Actually, assuming knifing wouldn't actually get changed, the stamina bar could simply be the jetpack bar. That would be incredibly easy to get used to.
As a veterinary nurse with 2 years experience, thats not true.
A Doby with speed behind him can and will send you flying. I've been witness to two entertaining spectacles involving vets, large dogs and aerodynamics.
EDIT
I agree with Majin - it probably wont be balanced, but from a "realism" standpoint, you should get the hug of death. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, well I tend to avoid dogs, so I was just making an assumption. Still, I think the point still stands. It makes more 'sense' for the Onos to have knockback, but not a skulk. I could see Leap having a knockback factor, but not bite.
What knockback does is reward skill and reduce the value of tactics in an engagement, in a similar manner to your first round being exactly on target in CS.
The debate here, if you wish to call it such, is really about those two opposing schools. The most skilled Veterans wish to keep knockback in because it adds more to the marine in terms of raw FPS skill. This is essential to most Veteran players as they have just as much or even less tactical skill than most community members. There are notable exceptions, Folorn for example, but the above statement is generally true.
On the other hand, most community members FPS skill pales in comparison to Veterans, who can own them up in a straight twitch-reflex battle all day. Since they comparatively suck at FPS, they want to be rewarded for out-thinking Veterans, which is vastly easier, since they find more time to do things like reading, rather than honing their air control. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What it boils down to in terms of gameplay:
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'><span style='font-family:Impact'>Skill versus brains.</span></span></span>
It is either down to Flayra, or should he wish to put it to the vote, the community, to decide which one should have more emphasis placed upon it. Personally, I think most community players play NS because it rewards thought. Certainly, that's what initially attracted me to volunteer to test.
However, neither side is "right" and both sides have their respective merits. I'd like to see NS played as more of a squad level combat game, but currently it is closer to Tribes 2 than it is to any realism style mod.
Adding an accuracy penalty based on movement would counter-act this issue to a certain degree. Flayra has suggested that recoil may be implemented at a later date, which may address the issue without requiring the addition of knockback.
My personal <i>feeling</i> on the matter?
I loathe anything that rewards bunny-hopping because it is an exercise in keyboard mashing and has actually now given me such bad RSI in my left hand that I've had to take up being owned by smurfs on Battlenet to rest my thumb. Since a large proportion of NS players (comparitively to other games) are geriatric like me, I think they'd also like to see the back of it. Also aesthetically it offends me by comparison to the beauty of movement in Quake 3 and in terms of the game world.
I don't see how you can possibly justify this statement in any manner. How is it possible that the players who play NS purely as a recreational activity could possibly have <b>more</b> or what you're calling brains than the people that play is competitively. In a high level scrim or match, where the two teams are about even in terms of pure FPS twitch experience, the team that ends up winning will be the one with the superior strat, but, more importantly, it will be the team that outsmarts and plays more intelligently than the other team. And that, by the way, is tactics.
If a skulk gets the jump on you then THEY are showing superior skill. Why should we reward marine incompetence by adding a 'failsafe' for marines to get a second chance at killing the skulk they failed to kill the first time? It makes no sense.
Do marines sometimes get owned when there is no knockback? You're DAMN right they do, and they <b>should</b> get owned. If you go running off alone then I have no sympathy for you should you get killed.
Marines have range weapons, and that means they should have the advantage in literally every encounter. In my opinion, knockback is a poor excuse for poor marine skills.
All that is needed to 'fix' this is to take knockback out and let people LEARN how to play without a safety net. I'm sure they'll manage.
Regards,
Savant
I don't see how you can possibly justify this statement in any manner. How is it possible that the players who play NS purely as a recreational activity could possibly have <b>more</b> or what you're calling brains than the people that play is competitively. In a high level scrim or match, where the two teams are about even in terms of pure FPS twitch experience, the team that ends up winning will be the one with the superior strat, but, more importantly, it will be the team that outsmarts and plays more intelligently than the other team. And that, by the way, is tactics. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually that, by the way, is strategy.
I was talking about tactics.
Using the two different terms interchangeably when they mean different things highlights my point nicely. Thanks. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
From dictionary.com :
strategy : The science and art of military command as applied to the overall planning and conduct of large-scale combat operations.
tactics : The military science that deals with securing objectives set by strategy, especially the technique of deploying and directing troops, ships, and aircraft in effective maneuvers against an enemy
This thread is about knockback, and as such, it has no correlation whatsoever to strategy. It is something that can only have an effect on small scale battles, not the outcome of the entire match.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but, more importantly, it will be the team that outsmarts and plays more intelligently than the other team. And that, by the way, is tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be tactics. "Playing intelligently" obviously refers to proper positioning, pack hunting, and flanking maneuvres. This is tactics, not strategy. Strategy is the general plan for winning the round. Here's an example. Forlorn, who you mentioned as a veteran you respect, will tell anyone who asks about his new strategy of dropping MCs for the first hive and using lerks with celerity to contain the marines and hold until larger lifeforms can come into play.
Both should be emphasised. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
However, marines were *supposed* to (according to documents and posts before NS was released) get owned if they moved out alone or with care. Aliens were supposed to be the team with a high twitch-factor reponse.
Sadly, the atmosphere of those early games has been lost completely. I blame:
Sensory providing no offensive benefits. (I mean attacking marine structures / bases).
Motion tracking removes almost all fear of ambush for marines.
Knockback gives second chance even if you blunder into an ambush.
Balance (in terms of overall wins and losses, not game phases) has been emphasised *before* game-phase balance and atmosphere.
People claim that NS is growing all the time, but it seems to have reached a fairly stable community size. The currently players oppose changes because they have developed playing styles specifically taylored to the current game. Other players don't like that playing style so they enjoy one of the countless OTHER games in the market. So, in order to keep the current players (esp. clans) happy, we alienate many more potential players. =(
Please note that I like NS a lot. I became a constie well before there was any incentive more then showing support (and getting a cool icon).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but in hyper-alert mode - which for a marine isn't just a state of mind, it's a state of biotech. Nano-glands had been regulating our adrenaline since the incident at the vent, keeping watch for any sign of muscle fatigue, and loading our blood with super-coagulants, nutrients, and other goodies we probably didn't even know about. We wouldn't be feeling the effects of pushing ourselves past the limits of sleep and endurance for a couple of days yet.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As u can see if u went by the story marines should beable to bunny hop as the nanonites in thier system would at the first sign of muscle fatigue load the blood up with stuff to keep the marine going.
But to balance the game the marine shouldnt have the ability to gain speed from jumping but should still be allowed to keep jumping for aslong as the want. Adding a stamina bar to the game would totally mess up the story of ns and not make it seem futuristic.
just my opionion
Zor
I hope Flay will do something radical in the next patch.
Flayra was thinking about that for quite a long time now, I hope we can try this out some time soon
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
We tried that before, it was auto-death when a skulk got a close.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We tried that before, it was auto-death when a skulk got a close. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't that the way it's supposed to be? The marine is supposed to be dead if the skulks is close-up, and the skulk should be helpless at long-range. I find it rediciously easy to kill skulks now if the shotgun just work as its supposed to (sometimes the hits wont register).
***EDIT:
Why not try to remove KB, and make skulks bite-radio smaller, maybe like in 1.04. I find it rediciously big now anyway...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The day this game gets recoil is the day myself and many others quit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When somebody says recoil, the first thing that jumps to halflife players' minds is CS-style recoil. I'm VERY SURE that that's not what Flayra has in mind.
With OCs costing too much for aliens to drop in the early game, this is yet another reason that aliens SHOULD be more successful in melee battles. Marines are owning the game far to much of late, and anyone who wants to dispute this is free to back it up with actual stats. I've been making notes and the marines are consistently killing aliens at least 50-200% more often than aliens are killing marines. (in classic)
Knockback makes as much sense as the knife doing 30 damage vs aliens. (don't get me started on how stupid that is - if you want to give a knife damage bonus vs buildings, that fine, but a 30 damage melee weapon for marines is just plain wrong on so many levels)
If knockback is removed, people WILL adapt. Yes they will get owned in the beginning, but if they don't adapt they will lose. The repeated raping of the alien's weapons and armor systems is getting rediculous, we don't need to add any marine advantages to it. The game is easy enough for the marines as it is.
Regards,
Savant
Knockback is practically the only way a marine can surrive a close range encounter. The other way is to have enough teammates backing him up so that when the skulk drops on him, the skulk then dies fast enough so the marine won't be killed first.
Don't say that "The skulks should win in any close range encounter!" This is simple-minded thinking and it brings this discussion <b>nowhere</b>. I mean, think about it, how hard is it to bring marines into close range? You name a map, and I can name several locations where skulks litterally can drop onto a marine's head from a vent, or from a courner in a small hallway, and the poor marine has no chance to stop it. Knockback simply means that if the skulk wishes to kill the marine, he can't just look at the marine and hold down the +attack button for .75 seconds to kill the marine, he actually have to <b>move</b> with him, <b>track</b> him, and actually play the game more than just hold down the +attack button.
NS without knockback would be extreamlly gimped, simply put. Skulks can stay around a small hallway or courner be guarenteed a kill? What kind of crappy gameplay do you guys want?
Next, realizing that knockback is in the game to <b>make up for the lack of complexity in the NS maps themselves,</b> I would like to state how knockback does become slightly imbalanced.
Once marines get armor upgrades, they get 3, 4 bites each complete with nice little knockback. This is extreamlly frustrating for a hive 1 skulk, as it becomes extreamlly tough to kill good marines who not only take more abuse, but also can use it to their advantage.
If I were to make any changes to knockback, I would make it so the force applied to a marine's knockback is <i>slightly</i> lessened with each armor upgrade he gets. If you want gameplay reasoning for this, it is because it becomes extreamlly difficult for a skulk, yes, even a good one, to land 3 bites on a marine who is constantly being pushed back a bit. This would be a very common situation, a hive 1 skulk versus a lv. 1 armor marine. The in game 'story' reasoning behind this is that with each armor upgrade, the marine is less meaneverable.
It wouldn't have to be a big reduction in how much less knockback he gets from being bitten; maybe just a few in game inches, but by the time the marine has lv. 3 armor he should be noticably less bouncy than a lv. 0 armor marine.
Well Savant, you've been speaking for me since this thread started, you've been well spoken, concise, and reasonable all the way through. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The fact that <i>some</i> people don't get what you're saying about KB beats the heck outta me, you've simply put it like it is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines are owning the game far to much of late, and anyone who wants to dispute this is free to back it up with actual stats.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would avoid this point in general and stick to the senselessness of KB. No matter which side b3.0 favors KB should be dealt with as a matter of NS logic. The fundamental NS logic that KB defies is;
<u>Marines are given a second chance at life when they being attacked in a situation which the Aliens were <b>designed</b> to excel at, melee.</u>
I realize KB has been removed before, and I realized it resulted in harsh marine ownage, but adapting to the removal of KB will be no more difficult then when the aliens had to adapt to the multitude of major changes that have been implement over the 3 versions.
Flayra, stop babying the Marines and let them live the reality which you intended for the NS world.
Marines = Range Specialists
Aliens = Melee Specialists
They will adapt or perish... this is <b>Natural Selection</b>.
All aliens need to win is melee? Just camp a chokepoint and it's an instant gg marines, please no gimped NS ty.
All aliens need to win is melee? Just camp a chokepoint and it's an instant gg marines, please no gimped NS ty. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hardly. If you know about these chookepoints you simply toss a grenade into the area then go in, or get motiontracking, or call for a scanner sweep. It's not as cut and dried as you think. Furthermore, if marines <b>know</b> they are going to get owned if a skulk gets close, they will <b>have</b> to move together. It will make rambo's nearly obsolete, it will enforce squad tatics, and it puts the stealth back into aliens. Downside? Marines have to adapt.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't say that "The skulks should win in any close range encounter!" This is simple-minded thinking and it brings this discussion <b>nowhere</b>. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You can call it 'simple-minded' or any of any of another hundred adjectives, but the fact of the matter is that <b>it is a valid observation.</b>
Long range encounter = advantage marines
Melee range encounter= advantage aliens
Yes, it's that simple, and even Flayra has said he agrees with this point in principle.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I mean, think about it, how hard is it to bring marines into close range? You name a map, and I can name several locations where skulks litterally can drop onto a marine's head from a vent, or from a courner in a small hallway, and the poor marine has no chance to stop it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Your point is? Are you suggesting that there should NEVER be a point in maps where marines are at risk? Why not just HAND the marines the win and be done with it. There is no map that the marines can't get to a point if they bring backup. If there is such an area where this is an issue to the point where the map is unbalanced, then that is a MAP issue and not a GAME issue.<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Knockback simply means that if the skulk wishes to kill the marine, he can't just look at the marine and hold down the +attack button for .75 seconds to kill the marine, he actually have to move with him, track him, and actually play the game more than just hold down the +attack button.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You don't play aliens much, do you? The actual killing of a marine is only a small part of the whole. GETTING within melee range is the hard part. Going in for the kill is the final act, and even then a kill is not guaranteed depending on the area where the attack is taking place.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS without knockback would be extreamlly gimped, simply put. Skulks can stay around a small hallway or courner be guarenteed a kill? What kind of crappy gameplay do you guys want?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->There are no guarantees of kills, as compared to a marine that camps against a wall in a large room or corner hallwall and cannot be killed by low end aliens. If you were to compare the number of points where marines could camp for "guaranteed kills" and where the aliens could camp for "guaranteed kills" then you would find there are FAR more marine friendly points then there are alien friendly points. That's the nature of the game. Aliens are aboard human stations and as such the layouts are more suited to marines than aliens.
Right now knockback takes away any incentive for marines to work together. Just rambo off on their own and count on good 'ole knockback to save their butt every time. Weak, seriously weak.
If people learned to play as teams instead of complaining about getting owned when they are off running solo then we could focus on bigger issues instead of nerfing the game to oblivion with cheap additions like knockback.
Regards,
Savant