<!--QuoteBegin-ZERG!!+Mar 3 2004, 08:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZERG!! @ Mar 3 2004, 08:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...1)removing knockback != realistic. In fact, 2)when a fade swipes you should probably recoil back a little bit, but if we are going for absolute realism you should be dead. And 3)if an onos gores you it would be more realistic that he knock you back 15 ft. So when the issue of knockback is brought up everybody is all of sudden all for realism. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) Lies. 2) Since the fade has claws curved inwards, and is slicing with those big claws, not bashing, it would be more likely to pull the marine towards it. 3) Gore is just the onos impaling you on its horn, you would get impaled, not thrown back 15 feet.
And skulks BITE marines, a dog biting something doesn't cause it to fly away unless (occasionally)it's a rubber ball.
<!--QuoteBegin-smokingwreckage+Mar 4 2004, 06:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (smokingwreckage @ Mar 4 2004, 06:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They have and AFAIK *do* read the forum. So, Snidely, do <i>you </i> have an opinion on the matter at hand? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I wasn't disputing that they read them. I just doubt that they're going to make such fundamental changes at this point.
*shrug*
As for my opinion - I'd say NS is an FPS with a smattering of RTS. I wouldn't call it a FPS/RTS.
Only the marines (well, one of them anyway) have RTS flavourings in their gameplay, and that's in the build order. Unless you take out free will for marines, and the importance of personal aptitude, it will stay that way.
A highly skillful player "costs" the same as a klutz, which you wouldn't really see in an RTS. I don't see how you can sensibly alter the game for this, either.
In addition, the game as it is doesn't allow for many counters as far as units are concerned, since it's so difficult to adjust accordingly (mostly for aliens).
I might change my mind if I see some suggestions that highlight what "we" think RTS elements might be. For the most part, all I've seen put forward are "realism"/atmosphere suggestions. While those are interesting, they'e more relevant to the question, "Should NS be a more 'realistic' experience than an 'arcade' one?" than, "Should NS be more RTS than FPS?"
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Mar 4 2004, 02:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Mar 4 2004, 02:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for my opinion - I'd say NS is an FPS with a smattering of RTS. I wouldn't call it a FPS/RTS.
Only the marines (well, one of them anyway) have RTS flavourings in their gameplay, and that's in the build order. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A salient point. This almost makes the current FPS/RTS balance a necessity. Since you have one marine playing an RTS and 5-15 playing a FPS, anything you do to make the game more reliant on the RTS player makes things less fun for the FPS players.
To use an extreme example, say the commander could research/build super-capable Assault Death Robots. What are the other 15 players going to do? Tag along and watch the robot? Weld it when it gets hurt?
Funny you say that...if I remember correctly, there used to be an Overwatch mode for marines. I guess it was taken out because of the fact that it required no skill to use - just get into position and you become a human turret. Not fun for an alien. :p
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>(It would be nice if one of the playtesters could correct me if I'm wrong about why it was taken out, since I never saw it in action.)</span>
Anyone remember the C&C game where each player controlled one unit? It was terrible. Try coordinating a tank rush when each tank sets their own waypoint. I think there's a tendancy to see an RTS with players as controllable underlings as some sort of holy grail. I'm not so sure.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Mar 4 2004, 03:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Mar 4 2004, 03:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyone remember the C&C game where each player controlled one unit? It was terrible. Try coordinating a tank rush when each tank sets their own waypoint. I think there's a tendancy to see an RTS with players as controllable underlings as some sort of holy grail. I'm not so sure. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> C&C sole survivor. I remember a friend buying that game and bitching about it to me lol <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) Gore is just the onos impaling you on its horn, you would get impaled, not thrown back 15 feet.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously never seen an elephant attack someone. :o
Switching NS to this "tactical" view will surely turn away ALOT of the current players... I think a larger portion then most of you think. How can you explain to a CS "vet" that because he ran into a CQC situation with only a LMG, he cant possibly win at point blank range with a Skulk? People hate being in situations in which they are totally helpless to stop what is happening.
Take focus for instance, I hear endless bitching if a skulk gets early focus and one bite kills the entire marine team... thats because the marines see the skulk and instantly die... with no ability to interact with or change the outcome. I'm sure we've all been there... However the skulk SHOULD be winning, he gathered the intelligence (or guessed) that the marines didn't get armor 1 yet, and thus got focus. THAT is a stratigec victory... and people HATE IT when it happens.
As for making the game more tactical... I really dont see how you could make it more tactical without literally copying other ideas from other mods (recoil, Secondary fire modes, Location specific damage) that would make NS lose it's "Sci-Fi" feeling. I for one cannot imagine a "tactical" NS... but i'd sure love to try it out! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Been away for a while, glad to see this thread is still hanging around. Some interesting things have been shared I'll try to get to them in the next couple of days but starting from where I left off...
<b>Forlorn</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I wanted bhop out of the marine's gameplay and always will. Bhop for marine's was rediculous. Movement advantages and range should not be given to the same team. Not to mention you could bhop silently down a hallway moving at insane speeds was also retarded.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
<b>Deacon</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You don't even understand what I'm talking about, go re-read Deacon's post with this link.
He hit the nail right on the head in terms of describing NS's gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I have read Deacon's post and I think he expresses his opinion pretty well, and the diagram really helps to demonstrate his line of thinking. However, if the this is what you got out of the chart;
<b>Forlorn</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, even the games that are "realistic" like ravensheild, racing games, Sim City, etc. are both heavily favored to skilled players with faster reaction times and crap like that. Sim City affected by reaction times? Yes, try playing on a normal speed setting and no pauses.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you are reading the diagram wrong. Look at the chart again; Simcity is on the very left side of the x-axis (Sim v Game) and on the bottom of the y-axis (Reaction v Planning) In that chart Simcity is a simulation which favors planning over reaction. Keep in mind, the way this chart is plotted is a reflection of <i>Deacon's opinion</i>, it would be interesting to see what other people's chart would look like.
<b>Forlorn</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't know about the rest of you guys, but making NS more like a simulation isn't exactly what I'd want, nor do I think it's exactly feasible -<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, that is your opinion.
<b>Deacon</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I wouldn't mind seeing NS:Classic shift a bit to the left. <u>I tend to think realistic-ish physics models make games more immersive and engaging.</u> But I also think NS is just fine on the twitch/planning axis.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By realistic-ish physics models do you mean?
<b>Grendal</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what some people want here is skill in terms of co-ordinated team maneouvers, covering fire, reconnaissance. Essentially making the game more militaristic and to a degree, more "realistic".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>BobTheJanitor</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This thread is a theoretical discussion of the direction we want NS to take, namely: a) More twitch gamer style, where quick reflexes and aim are rewarded over all else b) More strategy gamer style, where tactics and teamwork are more important<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Forlorn</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm basically saying how is it possible to have a type b scenerio?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't even gotten to that question. What this thread is trying to find out is, "Does the NS community <b><i>want</i></b> a type b scenario?"
<b>Forlorn</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This thread claims to want to make NS better, but what does this entail of?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have misunderstood me, this thread asks do you want NS to be <b><i>different</i></b>. Once we decide a majority of people want something different we will then try to find out what it is they want different.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You have misunderstood me, this thread asks do you want NS to be different. Once we decide a majority of people want something different we will then try to find out what it is they want different. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. You have to propose the idea for the change to happen.
I think I see a particular way of thinking that might not be helpful when we talk about the future of teamplay in NS. The line of thinking is;
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Should NS be more of an FPS or an RTS?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS can never be an RTS. It can take features from an RTS (ie. Overhead View, Buildings, Tech Trees, Resources) but it can <b>never be</b> an RTS. Nor do I think it wants to.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the COMMANDER MODE and the "RTS<i>-like</i>" features of NS was suppose to give marines "structure." That structure was put in place to <i>try</i> and inspire greater teamplay. The RTS"<i>-like</i>" features were included to support/shape the FPS side of the game. Only one player is playing an RTS, the rest are playing an FPS.
Let there be no confusion NS is an FPS.
So when we talk/think about the RTS-<i>like</i> features we should <b>not be</b> thinking whether we want NS to be more like an RTS. Trying to get your units to work as a team is not a factor in an RTS.
My opinion but when I think about the RTS"-<i>like</i>" features (ie. Overhead View, Buildings, Tech Trees, Resources) of NS; I see them as tools to build an FPS gameplay model which requires teamwork, <b>A Teamplay FPS</b>. The thing is, not everyone wants NS to be a teamplay FPS, maybe they want more of a Team Deathmatch with NS features/Theme, or maybe somewhere inbetween.
Why I called this thread, 'The "FPS status quo" and NS' is because if we want this;
<b>Grendal</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what some people want here is skill in terms of co-ordinated team maneouvers, covering fire, reconnaissance. Essentially making the game more militaristic and to a degree, more "realistic".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or any variation of this we are breaking away from the conventional playing style of many mainstream Team Deathmatch multiplayer games (ie. CS,CoD,BF42). We have to ask ourselves, how much co-ordination do we want* in a regular pub game.
*<i>first we think idealistically about what we want and when we agree on that THEN we can dicuss how much co-ordination can we realistically </i><b>expect</b><i> out of your regular NS server (the much harder question is the 2nd)</i>
If we truly want something that is currently unavailable we have to step out from under everything we've ever known and ask ourselves what do we really want. And since it might be something we have never really known, finding out exactly what it is we want may take time and discussion.
Now in the beta stages of the 3rd version of NS we have learned some things about what works and what doesn't, I think NS has shown positive improvements but the bigger question is;
<b>Are we any closer to where we want NS to be? Is this what Flay envisioned the Pub NS experience to be like? Is this what Flay envisioned the Clan NS experience to be like? Is it little tweaks from here-on-in until prefection, in Flay's eyes? How about in the community's eyes? Can we use more teamplay or less teamplay on pubs? Is the clan aspect close to perfection </b>(pub/clan should always be treated and thought of differently)<b><i>If</i> NS isn't where we want it to be, <i>where</i> would we like to go?</b>
Well, how do you quantify teamwork? If you mean stuff like marines covering buddies who are building, ninjas getting into position for a sneaky phase gate outside hive, lerks providing umbra, skulks parasiting, people communicating enemy movements/positions, then I'd suggest that that's already in there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are we any closer to where we want NS to be? Is this what Flay envisioned the Pub NS experience to be like? Is this what Flay envisioned the Clan NS experience to be like? Is it little tweaks from here-on-in until prefection, in Flay's eyes?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who knows? Maybe he'll post and enlighten us.
I don't think NS needs a gameplay overhaul. There are some things I'd like to see changed, but the overall feel of the game is good.
<!--QuoteBegin-Fantasmo+Mar 5 2004, 04:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Mar 5 2004, 04:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I wouldn't mind seeing NS:Classic shift a bit to the left. <u>I tend to think realistic-ish physics models make games more immersive and engaging.</u> But I also think NS is just fine on the twitch/planning axis.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By realistic-ish physics models do you mean? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know, the usual stuff.
. R6-style aiming (best accuracy when standing still, firing short bursts at a fixed target. worst accuracy when running, jumping, and firing wildly at a moving target) . No knockback from melee damage. If something hits you hard enough to send you flying twenty feet, the doctors should be picking bone fragments out of your internal organs. . Slower movement sideways and backwards. . Making the HMG more of a big, heavy support weapon, instead of a riced-out LMG
The bizarre thing is that some of this stuff (variable weapon accuracy, recoil) is already implemented in Counterstrike. So I'm not so sure that these features would instantly kill the mod, or drive off new players.
<!--QuoteBegin-Deacon+Mar 5 2004, 07:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Deacon @ Mar 5 2004, 07:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Fantasmo+Mar 5 2004, 04:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Mar 5 2004, 04:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I wouldn't mind seeing NS:Classic shift a bit to the left. <u>I tend to think realistic-ish physics models make games more immersive and engaging.</u> But I also think NS is just fine on the twitch/planning axis.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By realistic-ish physics models do you mean? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know, the usual stuff.
. R6-style aiming (best accuracy when standing still, firing short bursts at a fixed target. worst accuracy when running, jumping, and firing wildly at a moving target) . No knockback from melee damage. If something hits you hard enough to send you flying twenty feet, the doctors should be picking bone fragments out of your internal organs. . Slower movement sideways and backwards. . Making the HMG more of a big, heavy support weapon, instead of a riced-out LMG
The bizarre thing is that some of this stuff (variable weapon accuracy, recoil) is already implemented in Counterstrike. So I'm not so sure that these features would instantly kill the mod, or drive off new players. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The thing is, you have to consider balance
In CS there is huge recoil but guns kill in 1-4 shots, even if you have armor.
If NS were to add recoil and remove KB, you would have to weaken the aliens.
Making it realistic at the cost of balance isn't exactly wise.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 5 2004, 11:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 5 2004, 11:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If NS were to add recoil and remove KB, you would have to weaken the aliens.
Making it realistic at the cost of balance isn't exactly wise. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh no doubt. You'd totally have to rejigger balance across the mod if you made all the changes at once. It would be chaos.
I guess my suggestion is more along the lines of "in general, changes like this might be worth trying. One at a time. Over multiple versions." Which is why I didn't type out a list the first time.
What about the people who have insane reflexes as well as a brilliant tactical mind? What do you do about those players? And in order for tactics come into play there needs to be a level playing field, which rarely happens because people tech differently. What tactics are there to use when 2 onos, 2 lerks and 2 fades go against 5 LMG marines, there are none, the LMGers are screwed. What happens when a team of 6 skulks go against a group of HA SGers, they get murdered, unless those HA reallly REALLY suck.
Now consider for a moment. What if those 2 onos, 2 lerks and 2 fades went against 3 HA and 2 JPers (OMG HA AND JP?!?!?! BLASPHEMY) with 1 with a GL, 2 with HMGs and 2 with shotties. This battle isn't all decided by "omg I have onos RAWR" no, you need to use tactics. God forbid to figure out which room you have the advantage in, or find new points of conflict, that is never done because in NS either you have the tech, or you dont. The only time it starts out even is in the first 2-3 mins of the game. But when those marines get Armor 1, the balance is shifted a little. One side's tech is ALMOST always superior to another. When the tech is drastically superior, tactics don't mean a damn thing.
Until there is a way to have consistent mid-game and late-game tech go against each other for BOTH sides, tactics are obsolete.
Just because people can twitch doesn't mean that they are dumb in tactics, to assume that because they aim better than you, that must mean they are stupid is pathetic, and spiteful. (Hint the trick to aiming is to know where the enemy is comming from, which is tactical, SHHHHH its a secret, don't tell anyone).
<b>Firewater</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One side's tech is ALMOST always superior to another. When the tech is drastically superior, tactics don't mean a damn thing.
Until there is a way to have consistent mid-game and late-game tech go against each other for BOTH sides, tactics are obsolete.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An interesting and important observation. Beyond our desires for a certain style of gameplay there seems to be certain <b>fundamental</b> factors that needs to be addressed. What you are talking about here is basic gameplay balance. That is not exactly the topic of this thread but I would like to hear how you think we could achieve greater tech balance between the two teams in an average game.
<b>Firewater</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just because people can twitch doesn't mean that they are dumb in tactics, to assume that because they aim better than you, that must mean they are stupid is pathetic, and spiteful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Leave your baggage at the door Firewater. It seems to me you have some sort of "complex" (Forlorn seems to have the same "complex"). In every thread that discusses making changes to the game you seem to take it as some sort of attack on vets/clanners or "skilled people".
Don't bring that complex in here because I have stated quite clearly;
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Skill will always be a factor, but as we explore the future of NS as a teamplay game we should not say;
"Skill SHOULD be more important then tactics and strategy."
or
"Tactics and strategy SHOULD be more important then skill."
Maybe what we are exploring is,
"Where does skill fit into the tactics and strategy of a teamplay game?"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You asked;
<b>Firewater</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What about the people who have insane reflexes as well as a brilliant tactical mind? What do you do about those players?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have to find a way to fit these people in. It would be just as unfair to exclude these people into the balance of the game, as it would be to exclude any other level of player.
Remember, we are striving to make a mod that is fun for <b>EVERYONE</b>.
I have a solution, but it not practical, and never be implemented, because SO many changes would have to be made, and I know the dev team and mappers would not want to do that, which is fine.
The problem with the tech is Marines are only restricted by resources, Aliens are restricted by Resources, and the hive system.
My suggestion (the unpractical one), is abolish the hive system, and instead let the aliens build structures for the things they want (i.e. fade DC, lerk, extra spawning area). My theory is this, if the game was strictly a resource battle, there more be more dynamics involved in the game. Right now aliens have 2 options A)Rush in the beginning, hope for the best B)save for second hive/fades
Marines have a TON of more options, because they can build all their structures in their base without being harmed (theoretically). Is there anyway to stop marines from purchasing a building an arms lab? No (practically), is there a way to stop aliens from getting the second hive? Absolutely, this alone drastically effects the way aliens tech up. The ability to stop teching by not denying resources is the greatest advantage in the game. I dont even mean by lock downs, all they have to do is deny them the hive, not take it over.
Its ok to have different sides, and I understand the importance of hive rooms, but not only will this balance the game, it will give as much freedom to the aliens as the marines have, meaning the game well dwell less more on FPS game play, and more on tactics and strategy.
That is how the game can be fixed, but I know it won't happen, because it would take way too much time to almost restart everything, so I will have to think of a practical solution when I have some spare time.
I dont appreciate the fact that people think just because the vets can aim good, thats all they can do, thats what is implied about the vets in the beginning of the is post, its simply not true.
<b>Firewater</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have a solution, but it not practical, and never be implemented, because SO many changes would have to be made, and I know the dev team and mappers would not want to do that, which is fine.
...
but I know it won't happen, because it would take way too much time to almost restart everything, so I will have to think of a practical solution when I have some spare time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, thank you for proposing a solution that is definately <i>out-of-the-box*</i>. For the purpose of this thread I don't think you need to think in terms of "practicality" because I think it will seriously take some imagination and inventiveness if we want to even <b>mentally experiment</b> with any gameplay changes.
*<i>By out-of-the-box I mean a shift from the current gameplay structure. It takes courage and imagination to see beyond what is currently available so I invite everyone to be equally as imaginative for the purpose of this thread.</i>
Don't worry about whether the Dev/Mapping Team wants to impliment your proposed solutions, this is really just one big brainstorming thread. Propose away and we'll think of it as a big mental experiment.
I think this observation is worth re-emphasizing;
<b>Firewater</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem with the tech is Marines are only restricted by resources, Aliens are restricted by Resources, and the hive system.
...
Marines have a TON of more options, because they can build all their structures in their base without being harmed (theoretically). Is there anyway to stop marines from purchasing a building an arms lab? No (practically), is there a way to stop aliens from getting the second hive? Absolutely, this alone drastically effects the way aliens tech up. The ability to stop teching by not denying resources is the greatest advantage in the game. I dont even mean by lock downs, all they have to do is deny them the hive, not take it over.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree this is a <b>major factor*</b> which skews the strategic balance of NS. I have tried to express this on a b2.01 forum of yesteryear without much notice, perhaps I wasn't quite as simple and concise as you have been.
*<i>So major infact I think if the Devs want to experiment with any major gameplay changes they should address this issue first and see how the changes will affect the outcome.</i>
I need to think some more about your proposed solution but here is something I have long considered for ironing out this imbalance.
<b><u>Proposal:</u></b> Add 3 "Power Supply Nozzle" on each map that the marines need to secure in order for them to progress further up in the tech tree.
<b><u>Details:</u></b> Allow 3 "Power Supply Nozzle" that the marines need to build on (instead of a RT maybe a PT aka Power Tower) to progress up the tech tree. So in order for marines to have full tech they must also have 3 PTs. With each PT they secure they "unlock" new techs, if they lose a PT they lose the ability to use the techs.
<b><u>Impact?</u></b>: All the marines need is to protect their MS and secure RTs to tech. This makes marine strategy much more flexible because the aliens must protect their MS, secure RTs, <i>as well as</i> a 2nd/3rd hive to tech.
My proposal is to add an additional element (not unlike a hive with the aliens) for the marines to secure in order for them to max out their tech.
Welp, this is my idea to address the issue you presented. I don't have much "Idea Ego" so feel free to tell me it sucks, or poke holes through it. I'm just throwing it out there. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'll give your solution some thought and post my thoughts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont appreciate the fact that people think just because the vets can aim good, thats all they can do, thats what is implied about the vets in the beginning of the is post, its simply not true. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I have posted anything on this thread that gave you this impression <b>it was unintentional and I apologize.</b> I do not believe that all vets can do is aim and if you give me the line you felt I implied it I will edit it to be more clear. I do not want this to turn into a vets/clanners vs pubbers thing in any way whatsoever.
Thank you for contributing Firewater and everyone else, lets keep this discussion rolling. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
However, because marines are so slow and have to attack several key locations of the aliens constantly in order to win, it would be way too much to ask for 3 power nozzles, try 1 instead.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 7 2004, 08:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 7 2004, 08:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A power nozzle idea isn't too bad.
However, because marines are so slow and have to attack several key locations of the aliens constantly in order to win, it would be way too much to ask for 3 power nozzles, try 1 instead. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for your input Forlorn!
I think you are right, 3 PTs might be too much to ask.
With 1 PT maybe we can divide the tech tree where the advanced armoury meets the proto lab. So without the PT you can build/upgrade to the advanced armoury but you will need a PT to build and upgrade the Proto. Just a thought.
The interesting thing is we can come up with all sorts of suggestions on what is buildable/upgradable before and after the PT. If you guys like the Power Supply Idea, I'd like to hear more thoughts on how you think it should work for both Clan/Pub games.
<!--QuoteBegin-Fantasmo+Mar 7 2004, 07:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Mar 7 2004, 07:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b><u>Proposal:</u></b> Add 3 "Power Supply Nozzle" on each map that the marines need to secure in order for them to progress further up in the tech tree.
<b><u>Details:</u></b> Allow 3 "Power Supply Nozzle" that the marines need to build on (instead of a RT maybe a PT aka Power Tower) to progress up the tech tree. So in order for marines to have full tech they must also have 3 PTs. With each PT they secure they "unlock" new techs, if they lose a PT they lose the ability to use the techs.
<b><u>Impact?</u></b>: All the marines need is to protect their MS and secure RTs to tech. This makes marine strategy much more flexible because the aliens must protect their MS, secure RTs, <i>as well as</i> a 2nd/3rd hive to tech.
My proposal is to add an additional element (not unlike a hive with the aliens) for the marines to secure in order for them to max out their tech.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> While I like the idea, I think its too static, too much like the Kharaa's 3 hive dependancy. I would propose simiplifiying it to that the Marines mearly need to hold a minimum of three resource nodes to have access to all thier tech. Something like this:
1 Resource Node: Ablity to place and construct all buildings, provided previous tech requirements are met. Standard Armory benifits only. No Arms Lab Upgrades, or Observatory Upgrades
Therefore to have access to most of the mid-high level tech, the Marine team will need at least two resource nozzels. I wouldn't think this would be an excessive requirement, if a Marine team is even doing marginally well they are going to control at least 2-3 nodes.
It would however greatly aid in the Kharaa endgame when the Marines are locked into their starting location. If the Kharaa can knock the Marines back to their start and down to one node, the Marines will fall much more quickly without upgrades and andvanced weapons.
<!--QuoteBegin-Fantasmo+Mar 7 2004, 08:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Mar 7 2004, 08:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 7 2004, 08:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 7 2004, 08:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A power nozzle idea isn't too bad.
However, because marines are so slow and have to attack several key locations of the aliens constantly in order to win, it would be way too much to ask for 3 power nozzles, try 1 instead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for your input Forlorn!
I think you are right, 3 PTs might be too much to ask.
With 1 PT maybe we can divide the tech tree where the advanced armoury meets the proto lab. So without the PT you can build/upgrade to the advanced armoury but you will need a PT to build and upgrade the Proto. Just a thought.
The interesting thing is we can come up with all sorts of suggestions on what is buildable/upgradable before and after the PT. If you guys like the Power Supply Idea, I'd like to hear more thoughts on how you think it should work for both Clan/Pub games.
Thanks all, keep the ideas/feedback coming! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Lets see...
What you could do with the power node principle is that you'd build this 7000 hitpoint building that cannot be electrified, and costs 20 res instead of 15 to build.
It gives res just like any other node, and the power node cannot be captured by the alien team.
What the purpose of the power node is that you cannot upgrade your armory without this building.
As soon as you cap the powernode, your armory begains to upgrade. If the node is destroyed, then your armory stops upgrading. If you rebuild the node, it <b>resumes</b> where it was last finished upgrading minus 10 seconds.
The reason I chose the armory to be linked to this power node principle is because the advanced armory is singlehandedly the most important struture in the marine's arsenal. Without an advanced armory you will never get HMG's/GL's JP's/HA's to meet any late game tech the aliens ever get.
One major gripe I have with a power node principle is the major map design implications it will make. It would have to be exactly in the center between each alien hive and marine start in order to be balanced.
While I think this idea would be interesting, I think it would just be better to abolish the hive dependency, because it allows for more freedom. This system, while not bad, is just a reverse lock down system for the aliens. I think a more free system with the aliens actually "teching" would be better off, because of the more dynamic play that is involved. Though considering the ammount of time this would take to recode, perhaps maybe having marine "hive" dependency (for lack of a better description) might be more workable then allowing the alien tech tree to be unrestrictive.
I feel that if hives were abolished, then the aliens would be more free to tech to specfic upgrades, and would allow for a more dynamic upgrade chamber order, which can lead to more tactics and strategy to be devloped. Right now the aliens are almost pure TDM, which is fine for those who like it (I actually like the way it is) but to compromise to allow more tactical and strategic play, making the alien tech tree focused just on resources is the only thing that can do that. The only way to do that is to some how remove the hive dependency.
I would say "Tactics and Strategy over quick reflexes and aim." It's not because idon't have the skills, it's because supreme tactics should overpower one or two good players. EG. now 2 skilled fades with 2 hives is GG, completely the same in combat + focus. GG marins.
Mayby by taking KB out and making a recoil could fix this, but a good fade/skulk/lerk can be hard to kill even with a team of 4-5 marines. Maybe weaken the aliens overall HP/AP and streghten their attacks? Esp. the hive 3 attacks which is USELESS atm. Else you could implant some sort of "Aimbot" for the marines to upgrade from their obs, it should'nt be a 100% hit aimbot just one that makes the crossair go slightly after the closest alien.
If the PT was to be introduced (in any form related to upgrades) it would be the center of the whole conflict I am sure. I'd like to see one "Power Supply Nozzle" more than the marines need to continue upgrading. I feel that this would make the game more diverse, tactics wise, as it's harder for the aliens to deny the marines that very important location. It might be easier to create a balance between tech denial through recources and direct tech denial through hives/"Power Supply Nozzle".
I really like Firewater's idea though, it would create a much more diverse and entertaining game if you weren't forced to play a map the same way over and over. Now, if you would take away the hive-dependance, would you allow all lifeforms from the beginning, or separate them into the two "classes" they already are divided in (skulk, lerk and gorge vs fade and onos). Anyways, it would be great fun for all <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Meh, are we balancing large or small games? In 16players or smaller games, marines flexibility is the only thing stopping them from being aliens little dancing **** the whole game.
While if you only need one or something for armslab upgrades, it wouldn't be a big nerf, it would still feel like you're removing alot of options from the game. Meh, I like current balance mostly because it pitches 2 strong differences up against eachother. Having 2 teams with the same goal and means they try to achieve this with would make it alot more boring <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
1 node wouldn't be too good, then the marines would just relocate there every time. 2 nodes then? With one, you can get armor 2 and weapons 2 at the arms lab, and upgrade the armory- BUT you can not drop any of the stuff you get from an advanced armory, until you hold the second node as well(which will, obviously, let you get the rest of the tech tree). Upgrading to adv armory should still cost resources, or other costs should be increased.
EDIT: hang on, we're forgetting something here. While marines can take and hold a hive without much fear for retribution except in special hive locations(which are usually avoided in any case), aliens can't do that. Because marines can just put up a siege. Yes, you can prevent the marines from building the siege, but you might as well prevent them from getting anything at all done. It's not that easy.
the PT model restricts both sides, which is more balanced, but is it more fun?
If Flayra and Co., were to consider my idea, I would draw up a full plan on what things should be made in order for it to happen.
See the problem with NS is that its a consistent FPS, I dont even see real tactics used anymore whether it be pub or scrim, which is fine because I am FPS gamer for life, but at the same time, the game is advertised as a RTS/FPS, I feel that everytime that is said its misleading those who came for more a RTS experience. Because the only strategy for aliens get a second hive or rush, that really does not leave much room for tactics. Also choosing which species to tech to leaves a lot more strategy in the game (hrmm lets tech onos early to nail their res, NO LETS USE A FADE/SKULK COMBO TO ATTACK FROM 2 DIFFERENT ANGLES), thats just a simple example of the infinite ammount of strategy and tactics that could be used in the system of getting rid of the hives, and allowing freedom of tech to exist. Now think what this opens up for the marines?
Its the entire hive system that prevents tactics, not marines jumping, not knockback, not bunnyhopping. These were things developed to counter one another. NS is a TDM game with very little strategy, and this guy (comm) who can either make you or break you. I know this is a lot but I feel this can take NS to the next level.
Firewater, I'm sure you could elaborate upon your idea anyway, right? <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
1) Lies.
2) Since the fade has claws curved inwards, and is slicing with those big claws, not bashing, it would be more likely to pull the marine towards it.
3) Gore is just the onos impaling you on its horn, you would get impaled, not thrown back 15 feet.
And skulks BITE marines, a dog biting something doesn't cause it to fly away unless (occasionally)it's a rubber ball.
I wasn't disputing that they read them. I just doubt that they're going to make such fundamental changes at this point.
*shrug*
As for my opinion - I'd say NS is an FPS with a smattering of RTS. I wouldn't call it a FPS/RTS.
Only the marines (well, one of them anyway) have RTS flavourings in their gameplay, and that's in the build order. Unless you take out free will for marines, and the importance of personal aptitude, it will stay that way.
A highly skillful player "costs" the same as a klutz, which you wouldn't really see in an RTS. I don't see how you can sensibly alter the game for this, either.
In addition, the game as it is doesn't allow for many counters as far as units are concerned, since it's so difficult to adjust accordingly (mostly for aliens).
I might change my mind if I see some suggestions that highlight what "we" think RTS elements might be. For the most part, all I've seen put forward are "realism"/atmosphere suggestions. While those are interesting, they'e more relevant to the question, "Should NS be a more 'realistic' experience than an 'arcade' one?" than, "Should NS be more RTS than FPS?"
Only the marines (well, one of them anyway) have RTS flavourings in their gameplay, and that's in the build order. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A salient point. This almost makes the current FPS/RTS balance a necessity. Since you have one marine playing an RTS and 5-15 playing a FPS, anything you do to make the game more reliant on the RTS player makes things less fun for the FPS players.
To use an extreme example, say the commander could research/build super-capable Assault Death Robots. What are the other 15 players going to do? Tag along and watch the robot? Weld it when it gets hurt?
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>(It would be nice if one of the playtesters could correct me if I'm wrong about why it was taken out, since I never saw it in action.)</span>
Anyone remember the C&C game where each player controlled one unit? It was terrible. Try coordinating a tank rush when each tank sets their own waypoint. I think there's a tendancy to see an RTS with players as controllable underlings as some sort of holy grail. I'm not so sure.
C&C sole survivor. I remember a friend buying that game and bitching about it to me lol <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Obviously never seen an elephant attack someone. :o
Take focus for instance, I hear endless bitching if a skulk gets early focus and one bite kills the entire marine team... thats because the marines see the skulk and instantly die... with no ability to interact with or change the outcome. I'm sure we've all been there... However the skulk SHOULD be winning, he gathered the intelligence (or guessed) that the marines didn't get armor 1 yet, and thus got focus. THAT is a stratigec victory... and people HATE IT when it happens.
As for making the game more tactical... I really dont see how you could make it more tactical without literally copying other ideas from other mods (recoil, Secondary fire modes, Location specific damage) that would make NS lose it's "Sci-Fi" feeling. I for one cannot imagine a "tactical" NS... but i'd sure love to try it out! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<b>Forlorn</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I wanted bhop out of the marine's gameplay and always will. Bhop for marine's was rediculous. Movement advantages and range should not be given to the same team. Not to mention you could bhop silently down a hallway moving at insane speeds was also retarded.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
<b>Deacon</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You don't even understand what I'm talking about, go re-read Deacon's post with this link.
He hit the nail right on the head in terms of describing NS's gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I have read Deacon's post and I think he expresses his opinion pretty well, and the diagram really helps to demonstrate his line of thinking. However, if the this is what you got out of the chart;
<b>Forlorn</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, even the games that are "realistic" like ravensheild, racing games, Sim City, etc. are both heavily favored to skilled players with faster reaction times and crap like that. Sim City affected by reaction times? Yes, try playing on a normal speed setting and no pauses.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you are reading the diagram wrong. Look at the chart again; Simcity is on the very left side of the x-axis (Sim v Game) and on the bottom of the y-axis (Reaction v Planning) In that chart Simcity is a simulation which favors planning over reaction. Keep in mind, the way this chart is plotted is a reflection of <i>Deacon's opinion</i>, it would be interesting to see what other people's chart would look like.
<b>Forlorn</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't know about the rest of you guys, but making NS more like a simulation isn't exactly what I'd want, nor do I think it's exactly feasible -<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, that is your opinion.
<b>Deacon</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I wouldn't mind seeing NS:Classic shift a bit to the left. <u>I tend to think realistic-ish physics models make games more immersive and engaging.</u> But I also think NS is just fine on the twitch/planning axis.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By realistic-ish physics models do you mean?
<b>Grendal</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what some people want here is skill in terms of co-ordinated team maneouvers, covering fire, reconnaissance. Essentially making the game more militaristic and to a degree, more "realistic".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>BobTheJanitor</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This thread is a theoretical discussion of the direction we want NS to take, namely:
a) More twitch gamer style, where quick reflexes and aim are rewarded over all else
b) More strategy gamer style, where tactics and teamwork are more important<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Forlorn</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm basically saying how is it possible to have a type b scenerio?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't even gotten to that question. What this thread is trying to find out is, "Does the NS community <b><i>want</i></b> a type b scenario?"
<b>Forlorn</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This thread claims to want to make NS better, but what does this entail of?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have misunderstood me, this thread asks do you want NS to be <b><i>different</i></b>. Once we decide a majority of people want something different we will then try to find out what it is they want different.
You have misunderstood me, this thread asks do you want NS to be different. Once we decide a majority of people want something different we will then try to find out what it is they want different. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. You have to propose the idea for the change to happen.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Should NS be more of an FPS or an RTS?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS can never be an RTS. It can take features from an RTS (ie. Overhead View, Buildings, Tech Trees, Resources) but it can <b>never be</b> an RTS. Nor do I think it wants to.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the COMMANDER MODE and the "RTS<i>-like</i>" features of NS was suppose to give marines "structure." That structure was put in place to <i>try</i> and inspire greater teamplay. The RTS"<i>-like</i>" features were included to support/shape the FPS side of the game. Only one player is playing an RTS, the rest are playing an FPS.
Let there be no confusion NS is an FPS.
So when we talk/think about the RTS-<i>like</i> features we should <b>not be</b> thinking whether we want NS to be more like an RTS. Trying to get your units to work as a team is not a factor in an RTS.
My opinion but when I think about the RTS"-<i>like</i>" features (ie. Overhead View, Buildings, Tech Trees, Resources) of NS; I see them as tools to build an FPS gameplay model which requires teamwork, <b>A Teamplay FPS</b>. The thing is, not everyone wants NS to be a teamplay FPS, maybe they want more of a Team Deathmatch with NS features/Theme, or maybe somewhere inbetween.
Why I called this thread, 'The "FPS status quo" and NS' is because if we want this;
<b>Grendal</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what some people want here is skill in terms of co-ordinated team maneouvers, covering fire, reconnaissance. Essentially making the game more militaristic and to a degree, more "realistic".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or any variation of this we are breaking away from the conventional playing style of many mainstream Team Deathmatch multiplayer games (ie. CS,CoD,BF42). We have to ask ourselves, how much co-ordination do we want* in a regular pub game.
*<i>first we think idealistically about what we want and when we agree on that THEN we can dicuss how much co-ordination can we realistically </i><b>expect</b><i> out of your regular NS server (the much harder question is the 2nd)</i>
If we truly want something that is currently unavailable we have to step out from under everything we've ever known and ask ourselves what do we really want. And since it might be something we have never really known, finding out exactly what it is we want may take time and discussion.
Now in the beta stages of the 3rd version of NS we have learned some things about what works and what doesn't, I think NS has shown positive improvements but the bigger question is;
<b>Are we any closer to where we want NS to be? Is this what Flay envisioned the Pub NS experience to be like? Is this what Flay envisioned the Clan NS experience to be like? Is it little tweaks from here-on-in until prefection, in Flay's eyes? How about in the community's eyes? Can we use more teamplay or less teamplay on pubs? Is the clan aspect close to perfection </b>(pub/clan should always be treated and thought of differently)<b><i>If</i> NS isn't where we want it to be, <i>where</i> would we like to go?</b>
Discuss. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are we any closer to where we want NS to be? Is this what Flay envisioned the Pub NS experience to be like? Is this what Flay envisioned the Clan NS experience to be like? Is it little tweaks from here-on-in until prefection, in Flay's eyes?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who knows? Maybe he'll post and enlighten us.
I don't think NS needs a gameplay overhaul. There are some things I'd like to see changed, but the overall feel of the game is good.
By realistic-ish physics models do you mean?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, the usual stuff.
. R6-style aiming (best accuracy when standing still, firing short bursts at a fixed target. worst accuracy when running, jumping, and firing wildly at a moving target)
. No knockback from melee damage. If something hits you hard enough to send you flying twenty feet, the doctors should be picking bone fragments out of your internal organs.
. Slower movement sideways and backwards.
. Making the HMG more of a big, heavy support weapon, instead of a riced-out LMG
The bizarre thing is that some of this stuff (variable weapon accuracy, recoil) is already implemented in Counterstrike. So I'm not so sure that these features would instantly kill the mod, or drive off new players.
By realistic-ish physics models do you mean?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, the usual stuff.
. R6-style aiming (best accuracy when standing still, firing short bursts at a fixed target. worst accuracy when running, jumping, and firing wildly at a moving target)
. No knockback from melee damage. If something hits you hard enough to send you flying twenty feet, the doctors should be picking bone fragments out of your internal organs.
. Slower movement sideways and backwards.
. Making the HMG more of a big, heavy support weapon, instead of a riced-out LMG
The bizarre thing is that some of this stuff (variable weapon accuracy, recoil) is already implemented in Counterstrike. So I'm not so sure that these features would instantly kill the mod, or drive off new players. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is, you have to consider balance
In CS there is huge recoil but guns kill in 1-4 shots, even if you have armor.
If NS were to add recoil and remove KB, you would have to weaken the aliens.
Making it realistic at the cost of balance isn't exactly wise.
Making it realistic at the cost of balance isn't exactly wise. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh no doubt. You'd totally have to rejigger balance across the mod if you made all the changes at once. It would be chaos.
I guess my suggestion is more along the lines of "in general, changes like this might be worth trying. One at a time. Over multiple versions." Which is why I didn't type out a list the first time.
Now consider for a moment. What if those 2 onos, 2 lerks and 2 fades went against 3 HA and 2 JPers (OMG HA AND JP?!?!?! BLASPHEMY) with 1 with a GL, 2 with HMGs and 2 with shotties. This battle isn't all decided by "omg I have onos RAWR" no, you need to use tactics. God forbid to figure out which room you have the advantage in, or find new points of conflict, that is never done because in NS either you have the tech, or you dont. The only time it starts out even is in the first 2-3 mins of the game. But when those marines get Armor 1, the balance is shifted a little. One side's tech is ALMOST always superior to another. When the tech is drastically superior, tactics don't mean a damn thing.
Until there is a way to have consistent mid-game and late-game tech go against each other for BOTH sides, tactics are obsolete.
Just because people can twitch doesn't mean that they are dumb in tactics, to assume that because they aim better than you, that must mean they are stupid is pathetic, and spiteful. (Hint the trick to aiming is to know where the enemy is comming from, which is tactical, SHHHHH its a secret, don't tell anyone).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One side's tech is ALMOST always superior to another. When the tech is drastically superior, tactics don't mean a damn thing.
Until there is a way to have consistent mid-game and late-game tech go against each other for BOTH sides, tactics are obsolete.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An interesting and important observation. Beyond our desires for a certain style of gameplay there seems to be certain <b>fundamental</b> factors that needs to be addressed. What you are talking about here is basic gameplay balance. That is not exactly the topic of this thread but I would like to hear how you think we could achieve greater tech balance between the two teams in an average game.
<b>Firewater</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just because people can twitch doesn't mean that they are dumb in tactics, to assume that because they aim better than you, that must mean they are stupid is pathetic, and spiteful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Leave your baggage at the door Firewater. It seems to me you have some sort of "complex" (Forlorn seems to have the same "complex"). In every thread that discusses making changes to the game you seem to take it as some sort of attack on vets/clanners or "skilled people".
Don't bring that complex in here because I have stated quite clearly;
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Skill will always be a factor, but as we explore the future of NS as a teamplay game we should not say;
"Skill SHOULD be more important then tactics and strategy."
or
"Tactics and strategy SHOULD be more important then skill."
Maybe what we are exploring is,
"Where does skill fit into the tactics and strategy of a teamplay game?"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You asked;
<b>Firewater</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What about the people who have insane reflexes as well as a brilliant tactical mind? What do you do about those players?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have to find a way to fit these people in. It would be just as unfair to exclude these people into the balance of the game, as it would be to exclude any other level of player.
Remember, we are striving to make a mod that is fun for <b>EVERYONE</b>.
The problem with the tech is Marines are only restricted by resources, Aliens are restricted by Resources, and the hive system.
My suggestion (the unpractical one), is abolish the hive system, and instead let the aliens build structures for the things they want (i.e. fade DC, lerk, extra spawning area). My theory is this, if the game was strictly a resource battle, there more be more dynamics involved in the game. Right now aliens have 2 options A)Rush in the beginning, hope for the best B)save for second hive/fades
Marines have a TON of more options, because they can build all their structures in their base without being harmed (theoretically). Is there anyway to stop marines from purchasing a building an arms lab? No (practically), is there a way to stop aliens from getting the second hive? Absolutely, this alone drastically effects the way aliens tech up. The ability to stop teching by not denying resources is the greatest advantage in the game. I dont even mean by lock downs, all they have to do is deny them the hive, not take it over.
Its ok to have different sides, and I understand the importance of hive rooms, but not only will this balance the game, it will give as much freedom to the aliens as the marines have, meaning the game well dwell less more on FPS game play, and more on tactics and strategy.
That is how the game can be fixed, but I know it won't happen, because it would take way too much time to almost restart everything, so I will have to think of a practical solution when I have some spare time.
I dont appreciate the fact that people think just because the vets can aim good, thats all they can do, thats what is implied about the vets in the beginning of the is post, its simply not true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have a solution, but it not practical, and never be implemented, because SO many changes would have to be made, and I know the dev team and mappers would not want to do that, which is fine.
...
but I know it won't happen, because it would take way too much time to almost restart everything, so I will have to think of a practical solution when I have some spare time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, thank you for proposing a solution that is definately <i>out-of-the-box*</i>. For the purpose of this thread I don't think you need to think in terms of "practicality" because I think it will seriously take some imagination and inventiveness if we want to even <b>mentally experiment</b> with any gameplay changes.
*<i>By out-of-the-box I mean a shift from the current gameplay structure. It takes courage and imagination to see beyond what is currently available so I invite everyone to be equally as imaginative for the purpose of this thread.</i>
Don't worry about whether the Dev/Mapping Team wants to impliment your proposed solutions, this is really just one big brainstorming thread. Propose away and we'll think of it as a big mental experiment.
I think this observation is worth re-emphasizing;
<b>Firewater</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem with the tech is Marines are only restricted by resources, Aliens are restricted by Resources, and the hive system.
...
Marines have a TON of more options, because they can build all their structures in their base without being harmed (theoretically). Is there anyway to stop marines from purchasing a building an arms lab? No (practically), is there a way to stop aliens from getting the second hive? Absolutely, this alone drastically effects the way aliens tech up. The ability to stop teching by not denying resources is the greatest advantage in the game. I dont even mean by lock downs, all they have to do is deny them the hive, not take it over.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree this is a <b>major factor*</b> which skews the strategic balance of NS. I have tried to express this on a b2.01 forum of yesteryear without much notice, perhaps I wasn't quite as simple and concise as you have been.
*<i>So major infact I think if the Devs want to experiment with any major gameplay changes they should address this issue first and see how the changes will affect the outcome.</i>
I need to think some more about your proposed solution but here is something I have long considered for ironing out this imbalance.
<b><u>Proposal:</u></b> Add 3 "Power Supply Nozzle" on each map that the marines need to secure in order for them to progress further up in the tech tree.
<b><u>Details:</u></b> Allow 3 "Power Supply Nozzle" that the marines need to build on (instead of a RT maybe a PT aka Power Tower) to progress up the tech tree. So in order for marines to have full tech they must also have 3 PTs. With each PT they secure they "unlock" new techs, if they lose a PT they lose the ability to use the techs.
<b><u>Impact?</u></b>: All the marines need is to protect their MS and secure RTs to tech. This makes marine strategy much more flexible because the aliens must protect their MS, secure RTs, <i>as well as</i> a 2nd/3rd hive to tech.
My proposal is to add an additional element (not unlike a hive with the aliens) for the marines to secure in order for them to max out their tech.
Welp, this is my idea to address the issue you presented. I don't have much "Idea Ego" so feel free to tell me it sucks, or poke holes through it. I'm just throwing it out there. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'll give your solution some thought and post my thoughts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont appreciate the fact that people think just because the vets can aim good, thats all they can do, thats what is implied about the vets in the beginning of the is post, its simply not true. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I have posted anything on this thread that gave you this impression <b>it was unintentional and I apologize.</b> I do not believe that all vets can do is aim and if you give me the line you felt I implied it I will edit it to be more clear. I do not want this to turn into a vets/clanners vs pubbers thing in any way whatsoever.
Thank you for contributing Firewater and everyone else, lets keep this discussion rolling. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDiT: TyPoS
However, because marines are so slow and have to attack several key locations of the aliens constantly in order to win, it would be way too much to ask for 3 power nozzles, try 1 instead.
However, because marines are so slow and have to attack several key locations of the aliens constantly in order to win, it would be way too much to ask for 3 power nozzles, try 1 instead. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for your input Forlorn!
I think you are right, 3 PTs might be too much to ask.
With 1 PT maybe we can divide the tech tree where the advanced armoury meets the proto lab. So without the PT you can build/upgrade to the advanced armoury but you will need a PT to build and upgrade the Proto. Just a thought.
The interesting thing is we can come up with all sorts of suggestions on what is buildable/upgradable before and after the PT. If you guys like the Power Supply Idea, I'd like to hear more thoughts on how you think it should work for both Clan/Pub games.
Thanks all, keep the ideas/feedback coming!
<b><u>Details:</u></b> Allow 3 "Power Supply Nozzle" that the marines need to build on (instead of a RT maybe a PT aka Power Tower) to progress up the tech tree. So in order for marines to have full tech they must also have 3 PTs. With each PT they secure they "unlock" new techs, if they lose a PT they lose the ability to use the techs.
<b><u>Impact?</u></b>: All the marines need is to protect their MS and secure RTs to tech. This makes marine strategy much more flexible because the aliens must protect their MS, secure RTs, <i>as well as</i> a 2nd/3rd hive to tech.
My proposal is to add an additional element (not unlike a hive with the aliens) for the marines to secure in order for them to max out their tech.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I like the idea, I think its too static, too much like the Kharaa's 3 hive dependancy. I would propose simiplifiying it to that the Marines mearly need to hold a minimum of three resource nodes to have access to all thier tech. Something like this:
1 Resource Node: Ablity to place and construct all buildings, provided previous tech requirements are met. Standard Armory benifits only. No Arms Lab Upgrades, or Observatory Upgrades
2 Resource nodes: Unlocks Arms Lab, Advanced Armory, and Observatory upgrades.
3 Resource Nodes: Unlocks Prototype Lab + upgrades
Therefore to have access to most of the mid-high level tech, the Marine team will need at least two resource nozzels. I wouldn't think this would be an excessive requirement, if a Marine team is even doing marginally well they are going to control at least 2-3 nodes.
It would however greatly aid in the Kharaa endgame when the Marines are locked into their starting location. If the Kharaa can knock the Marines back to their start and down to one node, the Marines will fall much more quickly without upgrades and andvanced weapons.
However, because marines are so slow and have to attack several key locations of the aliens constantly in order to win, it would be way too much to ask for 3 power nozzles, try 1 instead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for your input Forlorn!
I think you are right, 3 PTs might be too much to ask.
With 1 PT maybe we can divide the tech tree where the advanced armoury meets the proto lab. So without the PT you can build/upgrade to the advanced armoury but you will need a PT to build and upgrade the Proto. Just a thought.
The interesting thing is we can come up with all sorts of suggestions on what is buildable/upgradable before and after the PT. If you guys like the Power Supply Idea, I'd like to hear more thoughts on how you think it should work for both Clan/Pub games.
Thanks all, keep the ideas/feedback coming! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets see...
What you could do with the power node principle is that you'd build this 7000 hitpoint building that cannot be electrified, and costs 20 res instead of 15 to build.
It gives res just like any other node, and the power node cannot be captured by the alien team.
What the purpose of the power node is that you cannot upgrade your armory without this building.
As soon as you cap the powernode, your armory begains to upgrade. If the node is destroyed, then your armory stops upgrading. If you rebuild the node, it <b>resumes</b> where it was last finished upgrading minus 10 seconds.
The reason I chose the armory to be linked to this power node principle is because the advanced armory is singlehandedly the most important struture in the marine's arsenal. Without an advanced armory you will never get HMG's/GL's JP's/HA's to meet any late game tech the aliens ever get.
One major gripe I have with a power node principle is the major map design implications it will make. It would have to be exactly in the center between each alien hive and marine start in order to be balanced.
I feel that if hives were abolished, then the aliens would be more free to tech to specfic upgrades, and would allow for a more dynamic upgrade chamber order, which can lead to more tactics and strategy to be devloped. Right now the aliens are almost pure TDM, which is fine for those who like it (I actually like the way it is) but to compromise to allow more tactical and strategic play, making the alien tech tree focused just on resources is the only thing that can do that. The only way to do that is to some how remove the hive dependency.
It's not because idon't have the skills, it's because supreme tactics should overpower one or two good players. EG. now 2 skilled fades with 2 hives is GG, completely the same in combat + focus. GG marins.
Mayby by taking KB out and making a recoil could fix this, but a good fade/skulk/lerk can be hard to kill even with a team of 4-5 marines. Maybe weaken the aliens overall HP/AP and streghten their attacks? Esp. the hive 3 attacks which is USELESS atm.
Else you could implant some sort of "Aimbot" for the marines to upgrade from their obs, it should'nt be a 100% hit aimbot just one that makes the crossair go slightly after the closest alien.
I really like Firewater's idea though, it would create a much more diverse and entertaining game if you weren't forced to play a map the same way over and over. Now, if you would take away the hive-dependance, would you allow all lifeforms from the beginning, or separate them into the two "classes" they already are divided in (skulk, lerk and gorge vs fade and onos). Anyways, it would be great fun for all <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
While if you only need one or something for armslab upgrades, it wouldn't be a big nerf, it would still feel like you're removing alot of options from the game. Meh, I like current balance mostly because it pitches 2 strong differences up against eachother. Having 2 teams with the same goal and means they try to achieve this with would make it alot more boring <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
2 nodes then? With one, you can get armor 2 and weapons 2 at the arms lab, and upgrade the armory- BUT you can not drop any of the stuff you get from an advanced armory, until you hold the second node as well(which will, obviously, let you get the rest of the tech tree). Upgrading to adv armory should still cost resources, or other costs should be increased.
EDIT: hang on, we're forgetting something here. While marines can take and hold a hive without much fear for retribution except in special hive locations(which are usually avoided in any case), aliens can't do that. Because marines can just put up a siege. Yes, you can prevent the marines from building the siege, but you might as well prevent them from getting anything at all done. It's not that easy.
If Flayra and Co., were to consider my idea, I would draw up a full plan on what things should be made in order for it to happen.
See the problem with NS is that its a consistent FPS, I dont even see real tactics used anymore whether it be pub or scrim, which is fine because I am FPS gamer for life, but at the same time, the game is advertised as a RTS/FPS, I feel that everytime that is said its misleading those who came for more a RTS experience. Because the only strategy for aliens get a second hive or rush, that really does not leave much room for tactics. Also choosing which species to tech to leaves a lot more strategy in the game (hrmm lets tech onos early to nail their res, NO LETS USE A FADE/SKULK COMBO TO ATTACK FROM 2 DIFFERENT ANGLES), thats just a simple example of the infinite ammount of strategy and tactics that could be used in the system of getting rid of the hives, and allowing freedom of tech to exist. Now think what this opens up for the marines?
Its the entire hive system that prevents tactics, not marines jumping, not knockback, not bunnyhopping. These were things developed to counter one another. NS is a TDM game with very little strategy, and this guy (comm) who can either make you or break you. I know this is a lot but I feel this can take NS to the next level.