Balance Concepts...
Savant
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">or how you can balance clan and pub play</div> One of the things that come up time and time again are the issues between clan and pub games. Some people seem to think that I don't care about clan interests when that just isn't the case.
In reality, I do want to see the game balanced for all, *BUT* I don't feel that the game should sacrifice one form of gameplay for the same of clan balance. That said, this means I think that pub play should be kept in the forefront, but that changes should take clanplay into account.
To give people an idea of how this can be accomplished, let's look at an example. Please note that while this is a suggestion, it's also an example. There are plenty of other things that could be done that might accomplish the same thing.
Increase marine bullet damage and decrease rate of fire.
Now before you say ‘that would cancel each other out’ I would suggest beefing damage SLIGHTLY more than the corresponding rate of fire decrease, so that the per second damage would be higher, but the rate of fire would be lower. The upshot to this is that it would reward better aim with a faster kill, and in this regard it would give marines (<b>especially</b> in clan games) a better chance at winning a conflict. However, the ‘average’ player on a public server would likely not benefit from the increased damage since it would require better aim. As such I think the impact wouldn’t be significant on public servers, but would still provide a needed balance boost in clan games.
Let’s do an example. The LMG has a ROF of 10 bullets/sec. It currently has an unupgraded damage of 10 points per bullet, which means it can deal 100 points of damage in 1 second if all bullets connect with the target.
Now, to experiment with a balance change, lets drop the ROF to 6 bullets/sec and increase the base damage per bullet to 20. That would do 120 damage/sec. So those who ‘spray and pray’ wouldn’t see a significant benefit, but a clanner’s superior aim and skill would allow them to land more bullets and do more damage/sec. When you factor in weapon upgrades it’s even more significant.
Let’s use some real-world examples. (values rounded up to the nearest full bullet)
Current damage values:
Joe pubber has a 45% accuracy rating. In the current system he will land 45% of his shots. If it takes 9 shots to kill a lvl 0 skulk, then it will take Joe pubber 20 shots to connect with 9 shots that kill the skulk, or 2 seconds of fire.
Josh clanner has a 65% accuracy rating. In the current system he will land 65% of his shots. If it takes 9 shots to kill a lvl 0 skulk, then it will take Josh clanner 14 shots to connect with 5 shots that kill the skulk, or 1.4 seconds.
Bill uber has a 85% accuracy rating. In the current system he will land 85% of his shots. If it takes 9 shots to kill a lvl 0 skulk, then it will take Bill uber 11 shots to connect with 5 shots that kill the skulk, or 1.1 seconds.
Now let’s try a modified rate of fire/damage change.
ROF 6 – Damage 20 = 120 damage/sec
Joe pubber has a 45% accuracy rating. In the current system he will land 45% of his shots. If it takes 9 shots to kill a lvl 0 skulk, then it will take Joe pubber 12 shots to connect with 5 shots that kill the skulk, or 2 seconds of fire.
Josh clanner has a 65% accuracy rating. In the current system he will land 65% of his shots. If it takes 5 shots to kill a lvl 0 skulk, then it will take Josh clanner 8 shots to connect with 5 shots that kill the skulk, or 1.33 seconds.
Bill uber has a 85% accuracy rating. In the current system he will land 85% of his shots. If it takes 5 shots to kill a lvl 0 skulk, then it will take Bill uber 6 shots to connect with 5 shots that kill the skulk, or 1 second.
While the improvements may seem minor, when you factor in damage upgrades you end up with very potent marine weapons for clanners, but similar damage for the ‘average pubber’. As you can note, it took the pubber with a 45% accuracy rating the EXACT SAME amount of time to kill the skulk, even with the supposedly better weapon. However, the extra tenth of a second the clanner gained can be VERY significant for since attacks happen fast and furious. The better shot a person is, the more significant benefit they get from the proposed change. If that doesn't serve clan interests I don't know what does. Yet it won't cause problems in public games since most players have 'average' skills and won't see the benefit.
You may say “Why not just increase the damage and leave ROF where it is?” but you would be overlooking the fact that for every bullet shot, there is a chance of being hit. If you are to shoot twice as many bullets then there is a better likelihood that you will score more hits. A person with weak skills who ‘sprays and prays’ will be MUCH more successful if the ROF is increased since they can ‘spray’ more. A slower ROF will favour the more skilled players, and thus give them more of an advantage over ‘average’ players.
If we still need more wiggle room with the clanners, then perhaps decrease the skulk bite ROF a very tiny bit in order to allow the marine to get off a couple more shots in the same time frame before being killed. Nothing drastic. If the skulk bite ROF is 2 per second, try 1.5 bites per second instead. It likely won’t affect public play but WILL affect clan play vs aliens. An alien who can land two consecutive bites (at a ROF of 1.5 bites per second) will need 1.33 seconds to kill the marine, or the same amount of time as it would take ‘Josh Clanner’ to kill the skulk.
All this and we wouldn’t need to do any alien nerfing at all. (if aliens were made competitive in public games again - something that is sorely lacking in NS at present)
There are plenty of ways to make marines and aliens balanced without gutting the ability of aliens to remain competitive in public play.
All you have to do is look for them.
Regards,
Savant
In reality, I do want to see the game balanced for all, *BUT* I don't feel that the game should sacrifice one form of gameplay for the same of clan balance. That said, this means I think that pub play should be kept in the forefront, but that changes should take clanplay into account.
To give people an idea of how this can be accomplished, let's look at an example. Please note that while this is a suggestion, it's also an example. There are plenty of other things that could be done that might accomplish the same thing.
Increase marine bullet damage and decrease rate of fire.
Now before you say ‘that would cancel each other out’ I would suggest beefing damage SLIGHTLY more than the corresponding rate of fire decrease, so that the per second damage would be higher, but the rate of fire would be lower. The upshot to this is that it would reward better aim with a faster kill, and in this regard it would give marines (<b>especially</b> in clan games) a better chance at winning a conflict. However, the ‘average’ player on a public server would likely not benefit from the increased damage since it would require better aim. As such I think the impact wouldn’t be significant on public servers, but would still provide a needed balance boost in clan games.
Let’s do an example. The LMG has a ROF of 10 bullets/sec. It currently has an unupgraded damage of 10 points per bullet, which means it can deal 100 points of damage in 1 second if all bullets connect with the target.
Now, to experiment with a balance change, lets drop the ROF to 6 bullets/sec and increase the base damage per bullet to 20. That would do 120 damage/sec. So those who ‘spray and pray’ wouldn’t see a significant benefit, but a clanner’s superior aim and skill would allow them to land more bullets and do more damage/sec. When you factor in weapon upgrades it’s even more significant.
Let’s use some real-world examples. (values rounded up to the nearest full bullet)
Current damage values:
Joe pubber has a 45% accuracy rating. In the current system he will land 45% of his shots. If it takes 9 shots to kill a lvl 0 skulk, then it will take Joe pubber 20 shots to connect with 9 shots that kill the skulk, or 2 seconds of fire.
Josh clanner has a 65% accuracy rating. In the current system he will land 65% of his shots. If it takes 9 shots to kill a lvl 0 skulk, then it will take Josh clanner 14 shots to connect with 5 shots that kill the skulk, or 1.4 seconds.
Bill uber has a 85% accuracy rating. In the current system he will land 85% of his shots. If it takes 9 shots to kill a lvl 0 skulk, then it will take Bill uber 11 shots to connect with 5 shots that kill the skulk, or 1.1 seconds.
Now let’s try a modified rate of fire/damage change.
ROF 6 – Damage 20 = 120 damage/sec
Joe pubber has a 45% accuracy rating. In the current system he will land 45% of his shots. If it takes 9 shots to kill a lvl 0 skulk, then it will take Joe pubber 12 shots to connect with 5 shots that kill the skulk, or 2 seconds of fire.
Josh clanner has a 65% accuracy rating. In the current system he will land 65% of his shots. If it takes 5 shots to kill a lvl 0 skulk, then it will take Josh clanner 8 shots to connect with 5 shots that kill the skulk, or 1.33 seconds.
Bill uber has a 85% accuracy rating. In the current system he will land 85% of his shots. If it takes 5 shots to kill a lvl 0 skulk, then it will take Bill uber 6 shots to connect with 5 shots that kill the skulk, or 1 second.
While the improvements may seem minor, when you factor in damage upgrades you end up with very potent marine weapons for clanners, but similar damage for the ‘average pubber’. As you can note, it took the pubber with a 45% accuracy rating the EXACT SAME amount of time to kill the skulk, even with the supposedly better weapon. However, the extra tenth of a second the clanner gained can be VERY significant for since attacks happen fast and furious. The better shot a person is, the more significant benefit they get from the proposed change. If that doesn't serve clan interests I don't know what does. Yet it won't cause problems in public games since most players have 'average' skills and won't see the benefit.
You may say “Why not just increase the damage and leave ROF where it is?” but you would be overlooking the fact that for every bullet shot, there is a chance of being hit. If you are to shoot twice as many bullets then there is a better likelihood that you will score more hits. A person with weak skills who ‘sprays and prays’ will be MUCH more successful if the ROF is increased since they can ‘spray’ more. A slower ROF will favour the more skilled players, and thus give them more of an advantage over ‘average’ players.
If we still need more wiggle room with the clanners, then perhaps decrease the skulk bite ROF a very tiny bit in order to allow the marine to get off a couple more shots in the same time frame before being killed. Nothing drastic. If the skulk bite ROF is 2 per second, try 1.5 bites per second instead. It likely won’t affect public play but WILL affect clan play vs aliens. An alien who can land two consecutive bites (at a ROF of 1.5 bites per second) will need 1.33 seconds to kill the marine, or the same amount of time as it would take ‘Josh Clanner’ to kill the skulk.
All this and we wouldn’t need to do any alien nerfing at all. (if aliens were made competitive in public games again - something that is sorely lacking in NS at present)
There are plenty of ways to make marines and aliens balanced without gutting the ability of aliens to remain competitive in public play.
All you have to do is look for them.
Regards,
Savant
Comments
The problems with the public game right now won't be helped to be eliminated by this, in my mind...but of course that's just me applying my opinion to the matter.
-Lee
marines miss less shots because it doesnt shoot as fast, and they can stay on target with their minimal clip, onos would die in no problem, fades a little bit harder
honestly i think its fine the way it is. you dont need to change anything to understand that good rines kill skulks faster than horrible rines
thx for trying to keep the game balanced though
i disagree
For example, the skulk armor was increased (before 3.0) and that made it great for pub games but bad for clan games. So they nerfed the skulk and now pub games (which make up 90% of all games) suck and clan games are 'OK'.
It makes absolutlely no sense at all to alienate 90% of the players in order to make 10% of the players happy.
The key is that we CANNOT make changes like reducing skulk armor simply to satisfy clan interests. It will only serve to unbalance the game since it does not take into account that 'average' players will die that much easier than experienced players.
My main suggestion is just one part of a bigger picture, that being that you CAN make balance changes that serve clan interests without damaging public interests.
Regards,
Savant
isnt that counter-productive?
If you wanted to balance for clan and pub play, simply reduce the skill required to play aliens. Give their tech more of a whallop. Playing as a fade to save the game is no fun when you [b[have[/b] to be unnaturally skilled to use it, when all MARINES ever have to do is point and click.
Furthermore, marines get 'stupid' upgrades like motion tracking. Again, an overpowered ability. Why? Because unlike any of the alien tech, it doesn't require the marines to do jack. It automatically works 100% flawlessly for them. They don't have anything goofy like focus (imagine if weapons 3 reduced weapon ROF. It seemed fair to gimp the aliens like that, why not marines?)
isnt that counter-productive?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all. (regarding skulk health)
DROPPING the skulks armor was counter-productive. All it did was make the marines near unbeatable in the early game.
Marines have the ability to build multiple spawn points to get back in the game quicker, yet the ALIENS are the ones dying more often, not marines. Watch your scoreboard in the early game, compare the number of kills by marines to the number of kills by aliens. Unless the commander is inept you will see marines will normally outscore aliens. The problem is that skulks are easy to kill, and in a one hive situation they take obscene amounts of time to respawn compared to marines. So you usually end up with 2 aliens trying to take on a half-dozen marines and getting their butts handed to them.
Of course at that point marines are able to secure a 'crucial' location and a pile of RTs without resistance, and the aliens are sitting with a full spawn queue and saying 'gg'.
If THAT isn't counter-productive I don't know what is.
Regards,
Savant
Clan players/vets play on public servers all the time. They don't get hit on the head and lose their l33t sk1llz0rs during the Steam connection process. Likewise, many pub players can aim, and have a basic understanding of how the game works.
IME, there are three key differences:
<b>Social</b> - pub players don't know or trust each other. Thus, actions which require coordination between players:
1. Take longer to set up, as the players need to discuss the plan and work out some sort of compromise/consensus
2. Are poorly organized, as the players don't know each other's play styles and language conventions
3. Are often sabotaged by individual players, for a variety of reasons. A given player might believe their score is more important than the team's success. Another player might decide the current plan is stupid, and decide to run off and do something else.
<b>Focus</b> - pub players tend to want to tech up more and play with all the various toys exposed by the game. There is no real burning need to take out the other team.
<b>Size</b> - pub games tend to be larger than clan games. Well run servers with active administrators tend to stay constantly full.
Some of this stuff does have an impact on the actual game mechanics. Note the issues with elec RTs. On public servers:
1. There are more players, so alien upgrades/evolutions/hives take longer to come into play. That means elec remains useful longer.
2. It's hard to coordinate a group of marines to go defend a node. And it's also hard to coordinate a gorge and some skulks to take down an elec node.
Take a graph of skill vs. effectiveness for the skulk. Take the same graph for the vanilla marine. The slope of the graph for the skulk is higher than the slope of the graph for the marine. What Savant is suggesting is to increase the slope of the marine's graph, so that both slopes of skulks and marine are closer. Hence, it would require similar amounts of skill to have similar effectiveness with the skulk and vanilla marine.
I'm not sure if it will work, but I think it's worth it to try it, since it's so easy to implement.
Deacon, he's not missing the point; he's just addessing one part of it. Aim is <i>statistically</i> an important difference between pubbers and clanners.
Not only should skill be balanced between races, but also between techs.
For example, I think it's undeniable that going sensory requires the most skill, which also makes it very unpopular in pubs. While I acknowledge that it's likely impossible to completely balance the 3 evo chambers due to the nature of the chambers, these "techs" should be more balanced to eliminate D-M-S.
I think one of the primary issues with pub play, particular on aliens, is the difficulty of organization. Unlike marines, aliens have basically no built-in methods of working together. They have to talk to eachother to determine gorging duties, evolutions, etc, and many pub players are not able to do that for reasons I will never understand. Personally I think the hive-sight style information delivery could use improvement to make alien teamwork a little more smooth. For example, aliens could use much more in-depth radio commands("Marines Building Nearby," "Area Under Attack," "Need Defense Here," that sort of thing), and they should show up as noticable icons on hivesight and also along the right side of the screen like build messages. Just an idea.
Right now, marines do better in the early game against pubbers than marines do in pub games. I don't see more accurate aim should kill skulks faster unless we want to see total and complete marine domination of all games.
I'll post more later.
This is just one possible change in the big picture. It is not meant to stand on it's own but instead ot be part of more comprehensive changes. The main aspect being that aliens need to be buffed, and the first thing I would like to see is the return of skulk health to previous levels. It was a LOT more balanced in pub play back then. This change would offset that, but would still allow for competitiveness in clan games.
While 3.0 has brought great advances in toys, it is horrid in terms of balance.
Regards,
Savant
Had you played the version with skulk armor at 20, and you would have seen the issues that caused Flayra to lower the hp.
Had you played the version with skulk armor at 20, and you would have seen the issues that caused Flayra to lower the hp. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're still not getting my point though. There are TWO teams. Anytime we run into a balance issue we don't HAVE to nerf the alien team. Everytime we do it, it sucks that much more fun out of the game. What next, rubber mallets for aliens versus bullets for marines. ("well aliens were too strong" someone says as I shake my head) The entire point of this post was to point out that you CAN make balance changes without arbitrarily nerfing the alien team. Skulk armor was fine the way it was, even after the hitbox change. I feel people weren't given enough time to adapt and I also feel people don't understand that marines are not supposed to own the map. Flayra has even said that he feels the aliens should have superior map control. That can't happen if marines are owning the majority of marine/skulk battles in classic.
It is just like when cloaking was added to the sensory chamber and people dropped sensory first EVERY game. I recall all the "OMG so overpowered!!!!" chants from people, yet look at it now. People have adapted to it and it is considered by many to be a weak strat. Nothing changed, so why the difference of opinion then and now?
The alien team has been continually and repeatedly <b>gutted</b> for the sake of 'balance' and it is doing nothing but destroying public gameplay and making further balance changes harder and harder because people won't open their minds to making needed changes.
I challenge anyone who wants to raise a balance issue, give me solutions that do NOT involve changes to aliens, but instead involve changes to marines. Open your minds a bit and see the big picture. There are two teams here.
You'll be surprized and what can be accomplished when you look at the other side of the coin for a change.
Regards,
Savant
Case in point: Just last game I killed 5 skulks and a gorge on the first round with the starting ammo. They are laughably weak.
For one thing, you can't quantify such an abstract concept as "skill". There is much more to it than just aiming the gun. Also, there are so many variables that trying to crunch the game into raw numbers is futile. There are many more situations in the game than one on one LMG rine vs skulk, many many different variables in said confrontation, infinite variables between individual players and how they play, etc. Trying to put all that into numbers just is not practical. The best way is to observe what happens in real games and go from there.
One other thing that is different between clan play and pub play is the teams themseleves. Clan games start out with teams that can be said to be even. No team has an overt advantage than the other in terms of players ability. Even teams almost never happens in pub games unless people are auto assigned teams. I'm not talking about one team with one or two more players than the other. I'm talking about most of the clanners stacking onto one team and the other side with mostly leftoevers, which ranges from good-but-not-clan-level, to decent, to poor. To even begin to balance pub play in and of itself, you need to start with reasonably even teams, mixed between godly to clueless and everything in between. That rarely happens.
Case in your point: The skulks you fought were laughably weak.
Had you played against better oppionents who could bhop, approach you from different directions, and actually worked as a team you would have died.
It is still very possible to kill marines as skulks. It happens in every game I play in. Last scrim I just played in as a skulk I kept an entire side of a map clean by using cloaking and just annhiliting the rambo marine they sent to cap some res, as a free skulk and a 2 res upgrade. I had lv. 1 cloaking btw.
Similarly, I've killed shotgunners as a skulk when I've used silence, I've killed 3 LMG'ers with carapace in an upclose battle, etc. etc.
You just have to take advantage of a situation and keep the advantage. I honestly think that while yes, skulks are weaker than marines in up close fights, the margin isn't so big you can't overcome it. Aliens continue to win and lose in the scrims I've played in and I find the balance to be quite excellent.
If you want to "Think of the pubs, Forlorn" then I will just point out I can usually destroy a pub as a single skulk rushing poor shots head on and rushign bigger lifeforms, mainly the lerk or fade, or rushing up a hive with the res for kills I get. If you want to say not every pubber can do that then tough; games should be won by a players SKILL more than anything. Better players should always come out on top if you are indeed playing a balanced game.
I will defend it to the end of time, and that is right now in 3.0 skulk vs. marines are fine and changing it now would be pre-mature.
The only reason aliens have it tougher in pubs is not because of LMG vs. skulk numbers, but because of the fact that aliens have a much much harder time competeting with the marines rate of tech. If marines were to be slowed down to compensate for their larger numbers (and hence larger total firepower) then I think we wouldn't feel that aliens are underpowered.
Had you played against better oppionents who could bhop, approach you from different directions, and actually worked as a team you would have died.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We are talking about pub games. The majority of people don't know how to bunnyhop, nor should they have to. It is very difficult for complete strangers to work as a perfect team no matter how good they are individually, and I know for a fact that a number of them were good players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is still very possible to kill marines as skulks. It happens in every game I play in. Last scrim I just played in as a skulk I kept an entire side of a map clean by using cloaking and just annhiliting the rambo marine they sent to cap some res, as a free skulk and a 2 res upgrade. I had lv. 1 cloaking btw.
Similarly, I've killed shotgunners as a skulk when I've used silence, I've killed 3 LMG'ers with carapace in an upclose battle, etc. etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, we're not talking about scrims, but even if we were, I'm not saying skulks can't kill a marine. I'm saying decent marines will generally mop the floor with skulks, especially in the early game before the upgrades.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You just have to take advantage of a situation and keep the advantage. I honestly think that while yes, <b>skulks are weaker than marines in up close fights</b>, the margin isn't so big you can't overcome it. Aliens continue to win and lose in the scrims I've played in and I find the balance to be quite excellent.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why should this be the case? The fact that the melee-based skulk can get up close and still be at a disadvantage to a marine is simply ridiculous. And the current scrim balance is pretty much irrelevant to this conversation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you want to "Think of the pubs, Forlorn" then I will just point out I can usually destroy a pub as a single skulk rushing poor shots head on and rushign bigger lifeforms, mainly the lerk or fade, or rushing up a hive with the res for kills I get. If you want to say not every pubber can do that then tough; games should be won by a players SKILL more than anything. Better players should always come out on top if you are indeed playing a balanced game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, but what about teams as a whole and not individual players? The problem in a nutshell is that alien teamwork is significantly more difficult to organize in pubs, and so the team itself is frequently at a severe disadvantage regardless of the skill of its players. The game is balanced to require aliens to work together relatively well in order to compete with a half decent marine team, thus the pub imbalance. For the two teams to be equal, aliens need a better team than marines do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I will defend it to the end of time, and that is right now in 3.0 skulk vs. marines are fine and changing it now would be pre-mature.
The only reason aliens have it tougher in pubs is not because of LMG vs. skulk numbers, but because of the fact that aliens have a much much harder time competeting with the marines rate of tech. If marines were to be slowed down to compensate for their larger numbers (and hence larger total firepower) then I think we wouldn't feel that aliens are underpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's very simply in my eyes. If aliens are to remain the way they are as far as their teamwork is concerned, then they need to be more capable fighters to compensate in pub games. That's how it was in 1.04(one gorge took care of the economy while the rest of the aliens fought), but since 2.0 the alien game has been much more complex. The player skill required for a whole team of aliens to work together is disproportionately large compared to what's required of the marine team, and if the aliens don't have anything else going for them there will be imbalance.
The problem of unorganized aliens will not be solved by boosting aliens performance.
Better solutions would include a more useful hivesight (what ever happened to being able to see what your other skulks saw? This helped a CRAPLOAD in determining where I needed to be in 1.04 on a pub), a more useful gorge (gorges are pitifully weak and boring to be... give them 10 more armor and any kills they get should give 3-5 res instead of 1-3)... blah blah balh
You get the idea... it's not the skulks! They are free little fast creatures who can still manage to kill marines. It's good enough. I think problems lie elsewhere and the blame gets put on teh poor skulkehs
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For one thing, you can't quantify such an abstract concept as "skill". There is much more to it than just aiming the gun. Also, there are so many variables that trying to crunch the game into raw numbers is futile.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I was never trying to suggest that balance could be simplified into something as simple as aim, BUT I do feel that it is a significant statistic that does bring insight into this issue. The fact that a person with poor aim would NOT benefit from a given balance change while a person good aim would benefit does give us the opportnity to actually balance clan and pub play. We're dealing with two levels of play here and we should be embracing things that will make balancing both forms of play that much easier. It's not the be all and end all to pub/clan balance, but it's a start, and it's a far cry better than anything else that I have seen which usually tosses public play balance out the window.
Forlorn wrote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Had you played against better oppionents who could bhop, approach you from different directions, and actually worked as a team you would have died.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I consider myself an 'average' player. Not super skilled, I hold my own. When I play I note that I can kill skulks far easier than I can kill marines. At first I thought it was just me, but I started to watch the scoreboard.
If you compare kills, the marines get SIGNIFICANTLY more kills of skulks on public servers. Should you compare end-game kills of aliens vs marines the bulk of alien kills will have been by fades/onos and not by skulks.
Skulks are weak. Any open-minded person should be able to see that. While they may be fine for clan play they are NOT fine for pub play. Telling pub players that they need to 'play better' is basically an insult to the public gaming community on the whole and doesn't help at all.
Do your own test. Start keeping notes when you play on pubs. When you check the scoreboard, got down the kills for the marine team and the kills for the alien team. Do this at regular intervals and watch to see the score before fades come into play. I usually see 33-200% MORE kills for marines vs skulks. The only time aliens get more kills is when the marine team has a crappy comm or when the entire marine team is weak. In 'average' games, aliens lose on a kill for kill basis all the time.
I'm sorry, but that is NOT balance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I honestly think that while yes, skulks are weaker than marines in up close fights, the margin isn't so big you can't overcome it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's the point though, aliens SHOULDN'T be weak in melee battles. They were never supposed to be and Flayra has said as such. In a one on one melee battle of two equally skilled player the skulk should win EVERY TIME. Period. (I am talking about a one-on-one battle with no outside help on either side)
When a skulk and marine of similar skill meet in melee range the marine should die EVERY TIME if the marine is alone.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem of unorganized aliens will not be solved by boosting aliens performance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->It sure as hell wasn't helped by nerfing skulk armor now was it? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> As I said before, everyone always thinks alien when thinking balance change, yet we have TWO teams to work with. Continually nerfing the aliens all the time serves no purpose but to unbalance the game as it is now.
Can skulks still kill marines? Of course they can. No one is suggesting they can't. I know some players who are insanely good at it and can wipe out whole squads of 'pub marines' in a single go. However they are the exception and not the rule. Most average public players die in battles vs marines regardless if they get the jump on the marine or not. It's just far too easy to kill skulks. If this isn't the case in clan play then that's fine, but on pub servers aliens ARE weak.
You talk about adjusting tactics and such but we're talking about public servers here. If anything, it should be clan play that should be adjusting THEIR tactics since they are the ones that plan for their games and who would be able to compensate for changes in gameplay.
Pushing clan-based balance changes on the public time and time again serves no purpose. It only leaves people with a bad taste in their rmouth after they lose yet another pointless game. I'm finding that the game as it stands now is not nearly as fun or balanced as it has been in the past. I used to be able to play for hours and now I can barely stand to play a couple games because it is so unbalanced.
I can only hope that Flayra is seeing what I see and will make the needed changes to beef the aliens.
Regards,
Savant
<b>social</b> - Tweak alien static defenses to make them more self-sufficient and/or affordable. For example, tighten up the OC hitbox. Or make RTs damage/parasite marines on contact.
<b>focus</b> - Improve alien third-hive abilities. Preferably those associated with high-dollar life forms. Charge, acid rocket, yadda yadda yadda.
<b>size</b> - Tweak the resource and/or upgrades systems to account for larger games. For example, increase the cost of upgrade chambers while removing the cost of alien upgrades.
Note that none of these ideas attempts to fix the skill gap between players. First, because it can't be done without making the game outcome random. Second, because I don't think it's a significant problem.
To me, that is utter crap. If there's no risk of ever losing that one-on-one, what fun is there to play skulk? If you know you can never win against the a single skulk if the rest of the group got killed, what fun is there to play marine?
You need to leave room for players to create their own style, and change styles to counter different movement patterns used by the opponent in question (skulk OR marine). A marine should be able to beat a skulk if he's playing it smart, and vice versa. Balance should NEVER be hard-coded in that fashion, or the game will become shallow and boring. Room for development is the key to a fun and successful game.
Edit: bullsh|t isnt allowed?
Um, you could win. You could kill the skulk before he gets to you, like you're supposed to.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You need to leave room for players to create their own style, and change styles to counter different movement patterns used by the opponent in question (skulk OR marine). A marine should be able to beat a skulk if he's playing it smart, and vice versa. Balance should NEVER be hard-coded in that fashion, or the game will become shallow and boring. Room for development is the key to a fun and successful game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Frankly I think the way that marines have "created their own style" to kill skulks is simply lame. Repeatedly jump dodging out of the way to shoot the skulk as he goes past you like some sort of bullfighter is stupid and atmosphere-damaging. Skulks are designed for close range combat, marines long range. There is no reason to give marines the advantage in both short and long range.
Agreed. I played a few hours each evening, sometimes 3-4 games in a row and it was fun. Nowadays I can't play more than one game because it is NO fun at all.
Aliens are supposed to be the rambo team. Individual res for kills makes this pretty obvious. But you need a group of skulks to stop marines from taking the map control. Even against a small group of 2-3 marines you need the whole alien team or the floor will be covered with skulk corpses. I think this is the result of the fixed hitboxes, increased marine damage output and weakened skulks.
There is something seriously wrong if a marine can duck-jump away from a skulk (that was able to surprise the marine or close the distance unrecognized) out of range and the skulk cannot follow him without bunnyhopping or strafejumping. Marines with armor upgrades have a good chance of winning against a skulk in close combat but aliens can't do anything against marines in ranged combat (yeah, they can parasite them to death!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ).
Suggestions:
1. Someone mentioned the changes in hive sight. I already forgot that you could see enemies seen by other aliens some time ago <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> This should be brought back. Clans have voice communication so this won't affect them that much but it would improve public game-play.
2. Marine weapons should spread more while jumping. This would make skulks viable in close combat again.
3. Alien res for kills should be changed to divide the res between all aliens or divide it between the gorges.
Maybe 1 and 3 would already be enough to make playing aliens fun again without nerfing either team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If there's no risk of ever losing that one-on-one, what fun is there to play skulk? If you know you can never win against the a single skulk if the rest of the group got killed, what fun is there to play marine?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're thinking too small. Remember, marine have RANGE weapons. The idea is that they are supposed to be more cautious and watch their heads.
While skulks should win equal skilled on-on-ones, a marine should win in cases where a skulk tries to approach from a distance. That's the beauty of this game is that each team has their own strengths and weaknesses. Marines and aliens are NOT supposed to be alike, but they are supposed to be equal. There is a difference.
tjosan wrote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You cant seriously advocate hard-coding the outcome of battles? The fighting-part is what an fps is all about. Knowing you will lose if you enter that room (where a skulk has placed himself so that melee combat is unavoidable) cant be fun on any level. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Again you aren't thinking ahead. If there is a certain ambush spot that they favour, toss a nade in before you enter. Have the comm scan it, grab a buddy to cover your back. There are plenty of ways to deal with it. Use some common sense and predict where they will be and then anticipate it. You MIGHT get lucky if you get your shots off first. However, if you get surprized because you never look over your head, then you deserve to die. Sorry, them's the breaks...
Aliens don't have range weapons so they MUST be given something that can be used to their advantage. In this case that is the fact that they are deadly in close combat. This is a PRINCIPLE of NS and is not up for debate. Flayra has designed the skulks to be the melee winner and the marine to be the long range winner. The key is getting the game balanced so that is the case. At that point you adapt or you die.
Zek wrote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Frankly I think the way that marines have "created their own style" to kill skulks is simply lame. Repeatedly jump dodging out of the way to shoot the skulk as he goes past you like some sort of bullfighter is stupid and atmosphere-damaging. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I definately agree here. Yuno what it reminds me of? TFC. Peole bounce around like noobs on crack but in TFC no one cares because that's what the game is about. Madics riding conc grenades across the map, soldiers rocket jumping, it all makes no sense but because of the mod, it doesn't really detract much from the game.
However, in NS, this practice DOES ruin the atmosphere. They removed bunny-hop, I like to see it go further to where a non-jetpack marine cannot fir while in mid-air, or no jumping while firing. Let them jump to their hearts content, but not with the ability to accurately shoot. That's just wrong.
Regards,
Savant