<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Mar 10 2004, 12:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Mar 10 2004, 12:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I sent an email asking Mr. Sirlin of www.sirlin.net asking him the very question of who should balance the game. Here is his reply
I don't think there is even any question here: the experts should balance the game, period. This came up at a game company I worked at once, where they were worried about me and another expert balancing their game because we were "too hardcore." I said to the executives "so you'd rather have people who don't know what they are doing balance it?" That ended that discussion really fast.
If average players balance the game it will necessarily end up with major problems, because they are not seeing the whole picture. The experts are seeing the most full picture (though even they aren't seeing everything, since everything is not yet discovered) so they are the only ones with any hope having the high level game balanced correctly. A good balancer is also looking out for the low and intermediate levels of play. First, it should be pretty obvious which tactics the lower level players are NOT going to use, so the expert can make changes to the game that don't affect high level play, but that make sure it's balanced at a low level as well. The whole endeavor requires such deep thought that it should only be in the hands of people who know everything possible about the game.
Consider Rob Pardo at Blizzard. He's a super-top player who (for one thing) balanced StarCraft. If there was a complaint that "wraiths are not good enough" then he'd play, build only wraiths, and beat everyone. Before the game was released, that was basically the best data available for him to decide that wraiths were fine as they are. Once he had access to a larger pool of players, he could also look at games between experts who built Wraiths and watch how low level players use them as well. If low level players can't use them for some reason, imagine if low level players re-balanced them! Whatever they change would surely make wraiths way too good, and high level play could very well become all about all-wraiths vs. all-wraiths. Even if the low level player isn't good enough to realize this and play matches like that...the game itself is really ruined. The top tier players will leave, the ones below will realize they have no good gameplay to look forward to, etc.
Bottom line, it's insanity to put balance in the hands of people who aren't seeing the whole picture. The experts can balance for themselves AND for lower skill levels. The lower skill levels (the masses) would be extremely lucky to even balance for themselves and they simply cannot possibly balance for higher level play.
I don't think I need to say more, as Starcraft was balanced by a Pro. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I love sirlin. He is the man.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow. I've never heard so much elitism in my life. I've played with a lot of these supposed "veterans" and a lot of them quite frankly suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hot damn I'm part of elite now apparently - and I'm not even a vet nor a member of any clan at the moment. And hail us average users - aka the elite <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-The Finch+Mar 10 2004, 01:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Finch @ Mar 10 2004, 01:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A good balancer is also looking out for the low and intermediate levels of play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the point of contestation. There are people who feel that testers are only looking to balance 6v6 clan play and leaving pubs hanging. I'd have no problem with high level players doing the balancing so long as the game was kept fair and <b>fun</b> on pubs. The balancing act that's been performed so far has ended up giving marines cookie after cookie while aliens get nerf after nerf. As a result, pub games just aren't as fun as they used to be.
The res system is still broken for anything 9v9 and up, 2nd and 3rd hive abilities have been made more and more ineffective (and consequently less fun, as things are only fun when they work) and a host of other issues that have been brought up on this board.
The other concern is the learning curve. Currently, the learning curve is so high that it's discouraging to new players. It's not much of a problem for people who have been playing since release, but people I show NS to don't have any fun playing as aliens. I believe Savant and Majan have had similar experiences with showing people NS. Without the ability to draw new players and hold non-clanners, NS will die out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. I wasn't, and I doubt anyone else was, suggesting that we allow the newbies to DO the balancing. What I was suggesting is that the game be balanced FOR the middle to low end of the spectrum.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow. I've never heard so much elitism in my life. I've played with a lot of these supposed "veterans" and a lot of them quite frankly suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're cool. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Mar 10 2004, 12:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Mar 10 2004, 12:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I guess telling Vets they suck is more on the lines of constructive criticisim, NOT flaming.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't say all Vets sucked, I said a lot of them do, and you agreed with me. It wasn't meant as a flame, it was meant to get the point across that not all vets have the skill that you and a few others seemed to grant them. And since the discussion was who should be doing the balancing and how, it seemed relevant at the time.
Forlorn's statement was relevant to the discussion how??
<!--QuoteBegin-[ev0l] Zues+Mar 10 2004, 12:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([ev0l] Zues @ Mar 10 2004, 12:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlorn's statement was relevant to the discussion how?? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm just pointing out the obvious inconsitancies within your own logic.
Pointing out the fact to everyone that there are indeed sucky vets (dispite the obvious fact that Firewater is only placing emphasis on good ones) is like me seeing a couple of good pub players and assuming you are all top notch.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 10 2004, 12:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 10 2004, 12:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-[ev0l+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([ev0l)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Zues,Mar 10 2004, 12:34 PM] Forlorn's statement was relevant to the discussion how?? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm just pointing out the obvious inconsitancies within your own logic.
Pointing out the fact to everyone that there are indeed sucky vets (dispite the obvious fact that Firewater is only placing emphasis on good ones) is like me seeing a couple of good pub players and assuming you are all top notch.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Forlorn, your attitude seems to be that there is no NS outside of vets and clans. I never suggested that all pubbers were top notch, although there are definately some very skilled ones. Actually I would agree that most of them are probably pretty horrible. My point is still that if the game is balanced twards the upper end of players, it's a goner.
The game simply will not survive, in my opinion, if the learning curve continues to be very steep and the "fun factor" for the lower end of the spectrum is completely absent (which it is in my opinion). Clanners come and go, so for a clan to survive they have to have a pool of players to draw on. When the pubber pool is gone, the clans will eventually be gone as well.
Again I'm not suggesting the game be balanced for complete idiots, or people who just want to run around shooting at things. But that instead the balance be pushed a little twards the middle to lower end of the skill spectrum. And if you want to do that, you need to listen to some of those people. Clan players are like electricity, and they will always take the shortest path to 'teh win', and therefore I think they will (and have) overlook things that us more common folk might see.
There are skilled players in clans and skilled players without clans. I have met clanners without skill (or at least less skill than I have) and I have met players without clan who played like newbies (maybe real newbies, hehe).
This whole discussion about skill doesn't lead to anything. Some pretty good clans pull great strategies and tactics out of the hat but not all of their players are uber-skilled. It's the teamplay that makes the difference. On public servers will never be that amount of teamplay. This was never a problem because marines had to play together or the aliens would just eat them over and over again. With the commander they had an eye from above that could lead them, equip them with weapons or punish them (no toys for those evil rambos) if they didn't stick together. Aliens didn't have something similar. That was no problem because hive sight was nice, motion tracking never worked and aliens were stronger overall. Now aliens are nerfed to oblivion and they need teamplay but this won't happen on publics. Clans don't see any problem because maybe the game is somewhat balanced in scrims.
So, what's this discussion about? Do the clanners think everything is fine? No balance changes necessary anymore? Or do you want to argue about who should be allowed to suggest balance changes?
<!--QuoteBegin-[ev0l] Zues+Mar 10 2004, 12:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([ev0l] Zues @ Mar 10 2004, 12:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My point is still that if the game is balanced twards the upper end of players, it's a goner. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And you know this because you are an expert. You see that sirlin guy? He's been doing professional gaming for, oh, 10 years or so ++ and I'm sure him saying that you should balance the game around top notch players doesn't mean a thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The game simply will not survive, in my opinion, if the learning curve continues to be very steep and the "fun factor" for the lower end of the spectrum is completely absent (which it is in my opinion).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The learning curve is steep? Not really. The learning curve, of any online game, is the players you play against. If you don't like losing a lot, then go to another server with lesser skilled players on it and see how much 'easier' the game suddenly becomes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clanners come and go, so for a clan to survive they have to have a pool of players to draw on. When the pubber pool is gone, the clans will eventually be gone as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clanners come and go...? No. Clanners are the ones who come and stay. Pubbers, by large and far, are the wheat and chaff who come and go.
The pubber pool will continue to exist as long as more people keep seeing this game and playing it. Then, if the person likes it he will continue to play it more and more and if he really gets into it he will end up in a clan. That's the story of most clanners and that's the story of most succesful games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Again I'm not suggesting the game be balanced for complete idiots, or people who just want to run around shooting at things. But that instead the balance be pushed a little twards the middle to lower end of the skill spectrum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doesn't make sense. All that will happen is this: You annoy top level players. Lower level players become better at the game. They go up the ladder and see there is nothing there, as they've already hit the top of their medicore game. The game then dies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if you want to do that, you need to listen to some of those people. Clan players are like electricity, and they will always take the shortest path to 'teh win', and therefore I think they will (and have) overlook things that us more common folk might see.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually electricity doesn't overlook anything, it just quickly figures out the best path to take.
Pubbers would be more like water, sliding into whatever comes their way.
One last thing:
Out of all of the games have died, they supposedly die because they were pushed to much for 'clanners over pubbers'. Like Firearms for instance. That game died because it supposedly appealed to the clanners, and hailing from the FA community long ago, I know this isn't true. But even if it was true, FA still lasted a good 5+ years at one time it was quite popular, rivaling TFC.
Games that I've seen balanced more for 'pubbers over clanners' I see rot and die a quick, painless, and mesirable death. Black and White is a good example. The game took no actual skill, the bigger creature which you got through hours of offline play is what won the game. Obviously this is 'pubber' friendly as it rewards those who take the time and dedication to play the game outside of a competetive setting, yet it completely kills the gameplay as players want to be rewarded for skill and not beefing up their creature (a bunch of a numbers).
Hi, I'm a pubber. I don't play much more than an hour a week. At this point I couldn't tell you a thing about balance.
However, I can tell you that this argument isn't going anywhere, therefore I'm going to go ahead and add my two cents.
A game should be balanced with the high end players in mind. It should have depth and variety that keeps the player coming back, even after hundreds to thousands of hours of play.
On the other hand, if the game isn't any fun or engaging to a new player, they will not stick with it. Without sacrificing upper-level balance, their issues MUST be addressed, or new blood will not join the game.
Right now, the game is interesting enough that I was able to get my friend to start playing (near the launch of 3.0) who does not like traditional first person shooters, and he is playing more often than I am now.
Rather than trying to cast your opponent's arguement in an extreme light, or say that they are absolutely right, you should consider trying to meet them half-way.
Now then, I'd certainly like to see teamplay reinforced. Correspondingly, I'd like to make sure this intuitive in nature, and that new players are informed what is expected of them.
Something that would certainly help is for knowledgable members of the community to put together some sort of FAQ/guide, <b>That could be packaged with the NS install</b> so that a player that wishes could look it over and know something about the game even before they join. Also, a player that has a few rounds under his/her belt could look it over when a question arrises, without having to brave the "shut up noob" atmosphere of a pub, or wading through all the topics in the forums.
I think that many of Forlorn's comments concerning hivesight were a move in the right direction. Again, the game should be balanced for the best of the best, but it should also have an appeal to new players.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 10 2004, 04:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 10 2004, 04:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And you know this because you are an expert. You see that sirlin guy? He's been doing professional gaming for, oh, 10 years or so ++ and I'm sure him saying that you should balance the game around top notch players doesn't mean a thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe you misinterpreted Sirlin's reply. It was concerning who should balance the game; not who the game should be balanced around. In fact, he even says, and I quote, "A good balancer is also looking out for the low and intermediate levels of play."
Listen, guys, you are still not understanding our argument. <b>We are not saying that newbies and unskilled players should decide game balance.</b> On the contrary; when it comes to actual balance suggestions it should be skilled players who make it. That Sirlin response is completely irrelevant because the question you asked him was the wrong one. He's completely right about who makes balance decisions, but we're not disagreeing about that. As civilian says, Sirlin even agrees with our point that the low/medium side has to be taken into account.
We are saying that balance has to take into account the pub community in general, at least from medium to high skill. The game shouldn't be balanced for newbies but it also shouldn't be so terrible for them that it turns them away from the game. We are arguing <u>against</u> the notion that clan play is the primary balance target, not the idea that good players should be determining balance(which is of course true, as long as they're targetting the right audience). The notion that all clan balance eventually filters down to pubs is ridiculous, or at the very least extremely exagerrated. The simple stuff will catch on in pubs eventually. JP/HMG, DMS, single gorge, etc all became extremely common knowledge on 1.04 pubs. However, things like clan-level teamwork will NEVER be picked up by pub servers, and so if balance is dependent on that then pubs will never be able to have it.
Firewater, if you took the time to write to Sirlin, why dont you show him the current state of NS, and ask him about the balance in this game and how it can be improved?
And personally, I think the balance is actually quite fair now, in pubs a lot of views get skewed because all it takes is 1 elite on either side to change the flow of the game drastically (maybe 2 on marine side), and the rest of the people think its unfair and post threads like "Fade is too powerful" or "Reduce the Shotgun" etc... but when the teams are fair, the game is pretty balanced.
The Elite should balance it for the rest of the community, because as Mr. Sirlin said, the average public person will not find the killer strategies and exploits (i.e. first playtesting group) that the Elite would find (when the firs group vets balanced 2.01, it was pretty damn fair for both sides).
People who aren't willing to think of new strategies and just do what is fun should not be testing this game.
<!--QuoteBegin-a civilian+Mar 11 2004, 04:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Mar 11 2004, 04:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 10 2004, 04:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 10 2004, 04:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And you know this because you are an expert. You see that sirlin guy? He's been doing professional gaming for, oh, 10 years or so ++ and I'm sure him saying that you should balance the game around top notch players doesn't mean a thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe you misinterpreted Sirlin's reply. It was concerning who should balance the game; not who the game should be balanced around. In fact, he even says, and I quote, "A good balancer is also looking out for the low and intermediate levels of play." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> By balanced around I mean who should be balancing it. I did use rather ambigious english there.
Maybe someone can explain to me why we're trying to equate clanners and pubbers here?
To me at least, it seems that for pubbers 'balance' revolves around "fun" while for clanners it revolves are equality. These are *two* seperate issues. You can attack one or the other but to try both at once won't work. The average pubber wants the "uberfade nerf" because to him, it's not 'fun' getting killed by a fade - even if he only is 0/0. The average clanner on the other hand, would be requesting a JP/HMG nerf, because it's the *one stop win*. Clanners want fights that are based on skill (not merely FPS, but the game you've played up to that point), while most pubbers want fights that are fun.
Balancing around skill is easier compared to balancing around 'fun'.
<!--QuoteBegin-Calldown+Mar 12 2004, 01:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Calldown @ Mar 12 2004, 01:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe someone can explain to me why we're trying to equate clanners and pubbers here?
To me at least, it seems that for pubbers 'balance' revolves around "fun" while for clanners it revolves are equality. These are *two* seperate issues. You can attack one or the other but to try both at once won't work. The average pubber wants the "uberfade nerf" because to him, it's not 'fun' getting killed by a fade - even if he only is 0/0. The average clanner on the other hand, would be requesting a JP/HMG nerf, because it's the *one stop win*. Clanners want fights that are based on skill (not merely FPS, but the game you've played up to that point), while most pubbers want fights that are fun.
Balancing around skill is easier compared to balancing around 'fun'.
Which do you think will make more people happy?
-calldown <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why do people think clanners play for reasons other than fun?
I'm not saying they're playing for reasons other than fun, however, fun relies more on balance than your average pubber. The pubber not going to figure out the omgdead strat as easily as the clanners - when unbalancing strats are discovered, games go all to hell. Fun's still there, but balance is just as important.
<!--QuoteBegin-Calldown+Mar 12 2004, 07:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Calldown @ Mar 12 2004, 07:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not saying they're playing for reasons other than fun, however, fun relies more on balance than your average pubber. The pubber not going to figure out the omgdead strat as easily as the clanners - when unbalancing strats are discovered, games go all to hell. Fun's still there, but balance is just as important.
-calldown <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Our 'fun' relies more on 'balance' simply because we play the game with the idea of winning. If one side can easily win, then there is no fun.
I honestly don't see why pubs are any different in this respect.
Forlorn wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Our 'fun' relies more on 'balance' simply because we play the game with the idea of winning. If one side can easily win, then there is no fun.
I honestly don't see why pubs are any different in this respect. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That sems to be the crux of the problem in my opinion. The fact you don't (can't) see why people from pubs see this issue differently is why there is this inadaquacy.
The assumption that "if it's balanced for clan play then it must be balanced for pub play" is a falacy, pure and simple. It has no basis in reality, and only serves to advance clan interests ahead of the other 90% who play on public servers.
The fact is, builds that were very balanced for clans have been horrid for pubs. We've seen this time and time again.
One of the things that I see tossed around are suggestions that clan players 'adapt' better to the game, and that pub players should adapt more. Frankly, I don't think that is true at all. If clan players WERE good at adapting to a changing game then why are they having so much trouble adapting to the game when it is balanced for pub play?
When skulk armor was increased and there was no knockback, did clans (playing marines) adapt? No. They whined and complained about it being 'too hard' to kill skulks until they got more nerfs put in. Sorry, that doesn't sound like 'adapting' to me. (no offense to anyone - just my opinion)
In the end this entire thread is conjecture since we have no idea what Flayra plans to do with the mod. He has to make the decision and he has to live with the decison. If he wants to balance for clan play, and alienate 90% of the players who play this game, then that's his decision to make. I may be saddened when NS goes does the pipes as a result, but that's life. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If one side can easily win, then there is no fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->This seems to be something that you are quite willing to overlook so long as clan balance is attained. Right now if you polled the general population here (vets and clan members excluded) and asked them, based on their playing experience, which team wins more, overwhelmingly you would hear that marines win more AND that marines are more fun to play. It's not fun playing alien anymore.
The stats I have seen support that, and only in very small games (5v5) does it even come close to balancing out. Nevertheless, many games are over shortly after they begin, and I have lost count of the number of F4 games I've been in recently. Balance is horrird ever since skulk armor and knockback were changed, and I hope the stats will bear that out to Flayra when he gets them.
In the end you can force through balance that only caters to clan players, but you'll find that the servers will become empty as people leave to find other more pub friendly mods. It happened to the FA mod, and it can easily happen here. You can deny it and debate it all you like, I really don't care.
The only reason balance is different in clan v pub (if we are talking about at least average to good pubbers) is teamsize. Once you start getting to 8 and 9 players per team then marine economy is much faster than alien, not only on division of res per alien but also rfk (because early game decent marines should always own skulks).
Play on a pub where there is a few good players and alot of random nsplayers and you will see any balance goes right out the window. Marines may start owning the game, grab all the res, "lock down" a hive (we're assuming the comm isnt one of those good players) and all of a sudden one or two good aliens could take back the game easily. Although at some point you could say that is balanced as the better players would win...
Btw what does removing knockback have to do with adaptation. Removing knockback makes it so that any ambushing skulk will always kill you, even in large groups you would hardly ever survive. Pubbers would have a much harder time trying to adapt to that than clanners (as we're assuming that not only could they organize better, but are going to be able to aim better).
Since I cannot force you to agree with me no matter how many times I drive my point across, or how you still haven't answered Mr. Sirlin at all,
I can only contest you on some simple facts, I will do so on this one:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One of the things that I see tossed around are suggestions that clan players 'adapt' better to the game, and that pub players should adapt more. Frankly, I don't think that is true at all. If clan players WERE good at adapting to a changing game then why are they having so much trouble adapting to the game when it is balanced for pub play?
When skulk armor was increased and there was no knockback, did clans (playing marines) adapt? No. They whined and complained about it being 'too hard' to kill skulks until they got more nerfs put in. Sorry, that doesn't sound like 'adapting' to me. (no offense to anyone - just my opinion) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If clanners could not adapt to it, what are the chances pubbers will? You contradict yourself. You say that marines have it too easy now but you have no problem making it so aliens have it too easy.
Forlorn wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If clanners could not adapt to it, what are the chances pubbers will? You contradict yourself. You say that marines have it too easy now but you have no problem making it so aliens have it too easy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Ahh, but that's the rub... Making it easier for aliens wouldn't make it TOO easy for aliens since it isn't easy for aliens now. It would BALANCE things since it is easy for MARINES.
Right now NS is the marine's game to lose. It's far too easy to secure a marine win. All it takes is a somewhat competent comm and half the marine team to not run off and rambo. If you have that you have a guaranteed win unless the alien team is stacked with 'elite' players. (on pubs that is rare, although it happens)
Alternately, it takes a much greater level of coordination to pull off an alien win. While that level of coordination may be present in clan games, it is NOT generally present on pubs.
Even when the marines are doomed to lose the game, they are STILL too strong. It normally takes ages to finish off a marine team because as a whole the marine team is overpowered even when they are losing.
Don't get me wrong here, I do NOT want ths to swing the other way and the game to be too strong for aliens. That would be equally as bad. However, we are nowhere near that now, and almost every pubber feels aliens are too weak. That HAS to say something for game balance.
Keep in mind it was my idea that was adopted in which aliens be forced to only build one hive at a time. I was also a key proponent of lerk spores not stacking along with other alien balancing measures. I do look at this from both sides, but many other people are quite happy with weak aliens and strong marines, it's just gone too far.
As for Sirlin's remarks, I really think you are taking them out of their intended context. The question you asked him was WHO should balance the game, and he responded 'experts'. I do agree with that, and it should be noted that being in a clan does not make a person an expert any more than being a 'random pubber' makes a person any less an expert.
However, the real question was not WHO should be balancing the game, but HOW it should be balanced. There's a big difference.
While I don't call myself an 'expert', game developement teams have called me an expert in regard to beta testing. I've been doing OS & game testing for 10+ years, likely before many people here entered school. I have folders full of beta CDs I have worked on, and flipping through them I can see how games evolved over the years. (did I mention I was on the Sierra beta for the original Half-Life game?)
Yes, a game needs skilled testers to balance a game, BUT, you need to balance the game at ALL LEVELS. One part of Sirln's reply that you conveniently neglected to comment on was the following:
Sirlin wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A good balancer is also looking out for the low and intermediate levels of play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Surprizingly enough, that is EXACTLY what I'm trying to do here.
I just wish it wasn't such a battle to get people to understand that this is just as important as the rest of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just wish it wasn't such a battle to get people to understand that this is just as important as the rest of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But who says we aren't? Please show me or explain to me how vets/clanners/experts push an agenda of anti-pub/killing lower level gameplay.
Like I've already said, the reasons most clanners won't like your suggestions, such as lowering skulk HP, <b>isn't</b> going to help. Skulks are plenty strong when used properly. They are plenty weak too. Even still with weak skulks, aliens still win their games in clanplay, and skulks all play a vital role in securing each and every win.
You state that making skulks stronger to compensate for suckiness on pub teams to 'satisfy' the other 90% is just wrong.
First, it's at the expense of us 10%, which, believe it or not, is what keeps game alive. An online multiplayer FPS game without any competetive scene will not last long. In my oppinion, a online multiplayer game is nothing without the competetive element. It will have no staying power. For this reason, the upper 10% is the most important.
You can always make the same old argument that clanners will die without a pub play, but this irrelevent, because I think everyone agree's on this.
I agree, pub play needs to be improved, but not at the expense of clan play. It's just backwards. Even if you don't agree that clan play is more important than pub play, if you have any sense at all you will recognize that <b>both</b> are vital to the surrival of this game.
Therefore, if almost every clanner says that lowering skulk hp would be an overall bad thing, then you shouldn't do it. Hurting one side of the gameplay for the sake of another is stupid. It's self-distructive and works against you as a developer.
So again, I ask for real solutions for aliens not being fun on pub games, not cheap, ugly, and brainless solutions such as lowering skulk hp.
What are you talking about "marines win most pub games"? This certainly isn't the case on the pub server I admin! And I certainly have more trouble winning games from the chair than I did in 2.01.
Skulks also seem relatively ok where they are right now. If I'm really on my game, I can slaughter pubs 3 and 4 at a time. If I'm missing alot of bites and not really nailing in-melee bhop, I die to a single nub.
I think NS is quite well balanced right now, although it's too soon yet to really tell - 2.01 ended up being much more balanced than anyone thought it was. Which is to say - I think the team should just let things marinate for a while. Don't make any balance changes. Get the bugs cleaned up, do an official release, run the 3.0 tourney and give away those 9800s. Wait 6 months and see how the win ratio falls out in clanplay and pubplay.
Hm. Unexpectedly, I find myself agreeing with Forlorn over Savant.. something I really didn't expect.
The game must be balanced as much as possible for the top levels of play. The reasoning is simple, if it's not, then the occasional addition of a very skilled player on the pubs will be able to exploit whatever imbalance is there, leading to the complete domination of the other side. This isn't good for anyone. Whether the imbalancing tactic is one that pubs might be unable to pick up on or not, an imbalance available to those at the higher skill-levels will inevitably affect those at the lower levels.. simply because of the problem of high skill griefers.
At the same time, however, the fun needs to be maintained for those who are at lower levels of skill. So, let's look at the things that make it not-fun for those levels, and remember that the answer is not "gain more skills" for any of these, as that is simply avoiding the question.
As a low-average skill player, the thing *I* find the absolute least fun is insta-death. This typically happens when trying to defend a hive.. whether it be from sieges or from incoming marines. You've just sat around waiting in the hive queue, you plop out, and before you can figure out where you are, you're ripped to shreds by cross-fire from marines too far away for you to even reach before you die. This happens whether you're moving or not when you come out. Of course, part of the reason for this is that when a skulk spawns, it's a vanilla skulk. (Conversely, when a marine spawns, it's already 3/3 or whatever upgrades they had). So, one solution, to me, is to make it so that skulks spawn with whatever adaptations (not evolutions) they had before they died. Of course, in order to maintain adapatability, skulks would need to be able to "unadapt" something.. not sure how this would work, but there've been many suggestions to this in the ideas forum. Now, this suggestion might be a bad one because I can see it affecting the higher levels of play as well. Perhaps not though, because even if you appear as a fully adapted skulk.. you're still just a skulk.
The thing I find to be second least fun is getting lost. It happens a lot. Partially because the maps are confusing, partially because the minimap is next to worthless for describing the vent system on nearly every map. For this one, perhaps a much better minimap system could be used. Multiple colors to describe vent systems. (Say yellow overlay for vents.. green where it crosses the blue areas, and a darker yellow (or green) where vents cross themselves..) This is a change that I think would work well because at the higher levels, it wouldn't matter (they already know the maps) but it would allow the lower levels to figure out routes easier. It would also be nice if the minimap had an option to display common room names. I seem to remember someone doing something like that up here on the forums.. why in the world isn't that standard?
The thing I find to be the third least fun is lack of alien teamwork. This is a much more difficult one to manage, but might be helped partially by the map fix above, as then lower level players would know how to get from point A to point B, and could also be helped by having the name of the area in a constant location.. the upper left corner of the screen. Right now, the area name drops to the lower left when alive and the upper left when I'm dead. The thing is.. I don't tend to have a lot of time when I'm alive to be looking around for it. When I'm dead, I do. So I notice when I'm dead it's in the upper left and remember that. Then when I'm alive and I want to see where I am, I look to the upper left... but don't see anything. It takes a moment to think and remember that it moves down when alive. If the positioning stayed the same, when something's happening, I would always be able to just glance where I expected the name to be and know where I was. Again, this isn't a change that would affect the top-skilled players, since they know the rooms by heart as well.
Another way to make teamwork more accessible is to make alien communication deeper. Right now in the options, a bunch of marine voices can be assigned to keys, but none of the alien voices -- plus aliens only have two sounds anyway, and neither is intelligible until you've had a lot of experience. Make the voices intelligible to humans (not necessarily marines) and put them in the sibilant "hive voice" if need be.. but most importantly, give aliens more options to communicate through hot-keys that can be set in the options menu. The simple addition of an "Seek me!" voice (for follow me) might add wonders to the aliens ability to use teamwork. It would be very cool if aliens could hear "Seek me!" but marines just heard some sort of hissing or garble.. not sure if that's possible.
The fourth thing I hate is trying to close in on a marine. "Use the ceiling!" they say.. "Use the walls!" Yeah right.. the maps do not lend themselves to this at all. The solution to this is simply smoother maps.. all the bumps and textures look great, but they also serve to hinder skulks from using the one ability that makes them really unique. "Bhop!" comes the cry.. "Go away!" comes my reply.. that's just a case of "Gain more skills", which doesn't address the question of how to make it more fun for the lower skilled player. So how about this.. remove bhop from the aliens, but increase their general speed to compensate. This puts highly skilled aliens and not-so-skilled aliens on a much more level playing field.
After all, marines have learned how to play without bhop.. maybe it's time aliens did as well.
Forlorn wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But who says we aren't? Please show me or explain to me how vets/clanners/experts push an agenda of anti-pub/killing lower level gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually, (and as you made evident in this post) it's not an 'anti-pub' mentality, but a moreso a blind drive to only look at that which will improve clan play. It's not that you're 'anti-pub', the pub people aren't even on your radar. They don't exist to you when game balance is considered. THAT is the problem. In no way do I think you are consciously 'anti-pub', I just think that you really don't give that 'lower level gameplay' the just consideration that it deserves. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Like I've already said, the reasons most clanners won't like your suggestions, such as lowering skulk HP, isn't going to help. Skulks are plenty strong when used properly. They are plenty weak too. Even still with weak skulks, aliens still win their games in clanplay, and skulks all play a vital role in securing each and every win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Must be a typo, but I haven't been advocating lowering skulk HP, I've been advocating raising skulk armor back to what it was in the last version. I'll respond using your comments as if they were written in that regard. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So again, I ask for real solutions for aliens not being fun on pub games, not cheap, ugly, and brainless solutions such as lowering skulk hp. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually, that's exactly how I felt when I had heard that skulk armor had been reduced in this build. Skulk armor never should have been reduced in the first place. For whatever reason, too many people are blind to the fact that there are TWO TEAMS that play in NS. Yet every time I hear a balance suggestion it involves alien nerfs and not marine beefs. You can't just arbitrarily make all balance changes on one team and expect it to be balanced. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You state that making skulks stronger to compensate for suckiness on pub teams to 'satisfy' the other 90% is just wrong.
First, it's at the expense of us 10%, which, believe it or not, is what keeps game alive. An online multiplayer FPS game without any competetive scene will not last long. In my oppinion, a online multiplayer game is nothing without the competetive element. It will have no staying power. For this reason, the upper 10% is the most important.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is where we are different. You see it as all or nothing. You refuse to even consider ANY change that might threaten your style of play, regardless of how that change might be implemented. If we make the skulk so it doesn't SUCK on pubs (and don't get me wrong, the skulk is sucking on 'classic' pubs) then there is no reason we can't manipulate other aspects of the game to make up for it that won't impact pub play.
As I noted in <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=65011' target='_blank'>this thread</a>, you don't HAVE to impact one style of play when you affect another style of play. That's where we are different. I'm willing to look at the bigger picture and dig deeper to find solutions to these problems without saying 'too bad' should a balance option not suit me.
If you read what I posted from above, you'll find that I am also sensitive to clan needs, but not as the expense of public needs. The opposite is also true. That's why I pushed to have hives only buildable one after the other. This was a very favourable clan change, as was removing the ability of spores to stack. (or at least many clanners told me they appreciated those changes) Alternately, these changes weren't as significant on public servers.
Balance is about looking out for the needs of ALL players at ALL levels. If raising skulk armor back to previous levels makes pub games more vable, then we should do it. If it negatively impacts clan games to significant extent, then we can examine what can be done to negate the change in clan games WITHOUT NEGETAING the positive impact the change had on pubs.
It's all about give and take and considering ALL the options. People should not be suggesting balance changes if they are not willing to consider everyone who plays the game. I'm willing to consider clan play, (within the big picture, not as the only element) but I also feel pub play is extremely important to the game.
You don't seem to want to consider pub play at all, and I can never agree with that point of view.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi John,
I don't think there is even any question here: the experts should balance
the game, period. This came up at a game company I worked at once, where
they were worried about me and another expert balancing their game because
we were "too hardcore." I said to the executives "so you'd rather have
people who don't know what they are doing balance it?" That ended that
discussion really fast.
If average players balance the game it will necessarily end up with major
problems, because they are not seeing the whole picture. The experts are
seeing the most full picture (though even they aren't seeing everything,
since everything is not yet discovered) so they are the only ones with any
hope having the high level game balanced correctly. A good balancer is also
looking out for the low and intermediate levels of play. First, it should be
pretty obvious which tactics the lower level players are NOT going to use,
so the expert can make changes to the game that don't affect high level
play, but that make sure it's balanced at a low level as well. The whole
endeavor requires such deep thought that it should only be in the hands of
people who know everything possible about the game.
Consider Rob Pardo at Blizzard. He's a super-top player who (for one thing)
balanced StarCraft. If there was a complaint that "wraiths are not good
enough" then he'd play, build only wraiths, and beat everyone. Before the
game was released, that was basically the best data available for him to
decide that wraiths were fine as they are. Once he had access to a larger
pool of players, he could also look at games between experts who built
Wraiths and watch how low level players use them as well. If low level
players can't use them for some reason, imagine if low level players
re-balanced them! Whatever they change would surely make wraiths way too
good, and high level play could very well become all about all-wraiths vs.
all-wraiths. Even if the low level player isn't good enough to realize this
and play matches like that...the game itself is really ruined. The top tier
players will leave, the ones below will realize they have no good gameplay
to look forward to, etc.
Bottom line, it's insanity to put balance in the hands of people who aren't
seeing the whole picture. The experts can balance for themselves AND for
lower skill levels. The lower skill levels (the masses) would be extremely
lucky to even balance for themselves and they simply cannot possibly balance
for higher level play.
--Sirlin
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think I need to say more, as Starcraft was balanced by a Pro. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love sirlin. He is the man.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow. I've never heard so much elitism in my life. I've played with a lot of these supposed "veterans" and a lot of them quite frankly suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're cool.
And hail us average users - aka the elite <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This is the point of contestation. There are people who feel that testers are only looking to balance 6v6 clan play and leaving pubs hanging. I'd have no problem with high level players doing the balancing so long as the game was kept fair and <b>fun</b> on pubs. The balancing act that's been performed so far has ended up giving marines cookie after cookie while aliens get nerf after nerf. As a result, pub games just aren't as fun as they used to be.
The res system is still broken for anything 9v9 and up, 2nd and 3rd hive abilities have been made more and more ineffective (and consequently less fun, as things are only fun when they work) and a host of other issues that have been brought up on this board.
The other concern is the learning curve. Currently, the learning curve is so high that it's discouraging to new players. It's not much of a problem for people who have been playing since release, but people I show NS to don't have any fun playing as aliens. I believe Savant and Majan have had similar experiences with showing people NS. Without the ability to draw new players and hold non-clanners, NS will die out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. I wasn't, and I doubt anyone else was, suggesting that we allow the newbies to DO the balancing. What I was suggesting is that the game be balanced FOR the middle to low end of the spectrum.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow. I've never heard so much elitism in my life. I've played with a lot of these supposed "veterans" and a lot of them quite frankly suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're cool.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When all else fails... flame...
I see you take your own advice.
And just for the record, I haven't flamed you.
I didn't say all Vets sucked, I said a lot of them do, and you agreed with me. It wasn't meant as a flame, it was meant to get the point across that not all vets have the skill that you and a few others seemed to grant them. And since the discussion was who should be doing the balancing and how, it seemed relevant at the time.
Forlorn's statement was relevant to the discussion how??
I'm just pointing out the obvious inconsitancies within your own logic.
Pointing out the fact to everyone that there are indeed sucky vets (dispite the obvious fact that Firewater is only placing emphasis on good ones) is like me seeing a couple of good pub players and assuming you are all top notch.
I'm just pointing out the obvious inconsitancies within your own logic.
Pointing out the fact to everyone that there are indeed sucky vets (dispite the obvious fact that Firewater is only placing emphasis on good ones) is like me seeing a couple of good pub players and assuming you are all top notch.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forlorn, your attitude seems to be that there is no NS outside of vets and clans. I never suggested that all pubbers were top notch, although there are definately some very skilled ones. Actually I would agree that most of them are probably pretty horrible. My point is still that if the game is balanced twards the upper end of players, it's a goner.
The game simply will not survive, in my opinion, if the learning curve continues to be very steep and the "fun factor" for the lower end of the spectrum is completely absent (which it is in my opinion). Clanners come and go, so for a clan to survive they have to have a pool of players to draw on. When the pubber pool is gone, the clans will eventually be gone as well.
Again I'm not suggesting the game be balanced for complete idiots, or people who just want to run around shooting at things. But that instead the balance be pushed a little twards the middle to lower end of the skill spectrum. And if you want to do that, you need to listen to some of those people. Clan players are like electricity, and they will always take the shortest path to 'teh win', and therefore I think they will (and have) overlook things that us more common folk might see.
This whole discussion about skill doesn't lead to anything. Some pretty good clans pull great strategies and tactics out of the hat but not all of their players are uber-skilled. It's the teamplay that makes the difference. On public servers will never be that amount of teamplay. This was never a problem because marines had to play together or the aliens would just eat them over and over again. With the commander they had an eye from above that could lead them, equip them with weapons or punish them (no toys for those evil rambos) if they didn't stick together. Aliens didn't have something similar. That was no problem because hive sight was nice, motion tracking never worked and aliens were stronger overall. Now aliens are nerfed to oblivion and they need teamplay but this won't happen on publics. Clans don't see any problem because maybe the game is somewhat balanced in scrims.
So, what's this discussion about? Do the clanners think everything is fine? No balance changes necessary anymore? Or do you want to argue about who should be allowed to suggest balance changes?
And you know this because you are an expert. You see that sirlin guy? He's been doing professional gaming for, oh, 10 years or so ++ and I'm sure him saying that you should balance the game around top notch players doesn't mean a thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The game simply will not survive, in my opinion, if the learning curve continues to be very steep and the "fun factor" for the lower end of the spectrum is completely absent (which it is in my opinion).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The learning curve is steep? Not really. The learning curve, of any online game, is the players you play against. If you don't like losing a lot, then go to another server with lesser skilled players on it and see how much 'easier' the game suddenly becomes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clanners come and go, so for a clan to survive they have to have a pool of players to draw on. When the pubber pool is gone, the clans will eventually be gone as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clanners come and go...? No. Clanners are the ones who come and stay. Pubbers, by large and far, are the wheat and chaff who come and go.
The pubber pool will continue to exist as long as more people keep seeing this game and playing it. Then, if the person likes it he will continue to play it more and more and if he really gets into it he will end up in a clan. That's the story of most clanners and that's the story of most succesful games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Again I'm not suggesting the game be balanced for complete idiots, or people who just want to run around shooting at things. But that instead the balance be pushed a little twards the middle to lower end of the skill spectrum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doesn't make sense. All that will happen is this: You annoy top level players. Lower level players become better at the game. They go up the ladder and see there is nothing there, as they've already hit the top of their medicore game. The game then dies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if you want to do that, you need to listen to some of those people. Clan players are like electricity, and they will always take the shortest path to 'teh win', and therefore I think they will (and have) overlook things that us more common folk might see.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually electricity doesn't overlook anything, it just quickly figures out the best path to take.
Pubbers would be more like water, sliding into whatever comes their way.
One last thing:
Out of all of the games have died, they supposedly die because they were pushed to much for 'clanners over pubbers'. Like Firearms for instance. That game died because it supposedly appealed to the clanners, and hailing from the FA community long ago, I know this isn't true. But even if it was true, FA still lasted a good 5+ years at one time it was quite popular, rivaling TFC.
Games that I've seen balanced more for 'pubbers over clanners' I see rot and die a quick, painless, and mesirable death. Black and White is a good example. The game took no actual skill, the bigger creature which you got through hours of offline play is what won the game. Obviously this is 'pubber' friendly as it rewards those who take the time and dedication to play the game outside of a competetive setting, yet it completely kills the gameplay as players want to be rewarded for skill and not beefing up their creature (a bunch of a numbers).
Really, there is no argument here IMO.
However, I can tell you that this argument isn't going anywhere, therefore I'm going to go ahead and add my two cents.
A game should be balanced with the high end players in mind. It should have depth and variety that keeps the player coming back, even after hundreds to thousands of hours of play.
On the other hand, if the game isn't any fun or engaging to a new player, they will not stick with it. Without sacrificing upper-level balance, their issues MUST be addressed, or new blood will not join the game.
Right now, the game is interesting enough that I was able to get my friend to start playing (near the launch of 3.0) who does not like traditional first person shooters, and he is playing more often than I am now.
Rather than trying to cast your opponent's arguement in an extreme light, or say that they are absolutely right, you should consider trying to meet them half-way.
Now then, I'd certainly like to see teamplay reinforced. Correspondingly, I'd like to make sure this intuitive in nature, and that new players are informed what is expected of them.
Something that would certainly help is for knowledgable members of the community to put together some sort of FAQ/guide, <b>That could be packaged with the NS install</b> so that a player that wishes could look it over and know something about the game even before they join. Also, a player that has a few rounds under his/her belt could look it over when a question arrises, without having to brave the "shut up noob" atmosphere of a pub, or wading through all the topics in the forums.
I think that many of Forlorn's comments concerning hivesight were a move in the right direction. Again, the game should be balanced for the best of the best, but it should also have an appeal to new players.
I believe you misinterpreted Sirlin's reply. It was concerning who should balance the game; not who the game should be balanced around. In fact, he even says, and I quote, "A good balancer is also looking out for the low and intermediate levels of play."
We are saying that balance has to take into account the pub community in general, at least from medium to high skill. The game shouldn't be balanced for newbies but it also shouldn't be so terrible for them that it turns them away from the game. We are arguing <u>against</u> the notion that clan play is the primary balance target, not the idea that good players should be determining balance(which is of course true, as long as they're targetting the right audience). The notion that all clan balance eventually filters down to pubs is ridiculous, or at the very least extremely exagerrated. The simple stuff will catch on in pubs eventually. JP/HMG, DMS, single gorge, etc all became extremely common knowledge on 1.04 pubs. However, things like clan-level teamwork will NEVER be picked up by pub servers, and so if balance is dependent on that then pubs will never be able to have it.
The Elite should balance it for the rest of the community, because as Mr. Sirlin said, the average public person will not find the killer strategies and exploits (i.e. first playtesting group) that the Elite would find (when the firs group vets balanced 2.01, it was pretty damn fair for both sides).
People who aren't willing to think of new strategies and just do what is fun should not be testing this game.
I believe you misinterpreted Sirlin's reply. It was concerning who should balance the game; not who the game should be balanced around. In fact, he even says, and I quote, "A good balancer is also looking out for the low and intermediate levels of play." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
By balanced around I mean who should be balancing it. I did use rather ambigious english there.
To me at least, it seems that for pubbers 'balance' revolves around "fun" while for clanners it revolves are equality. These are *two* seperate issues. You can attack one or the other but to try both at once won't work. The average pubber wants the "uberfade nerf" because to him, it's not 'fun' getting killed by a fade - even if he only is 0/0. The average clanner on the other hand, would be requesting a JP/HMG nerf, because it's the *one stop win*. Clanners want fights that are based on skill (not merely FPS, but the game you've played up to that point), while most pubbers want fights that are fun.
Balancing around skill is easier compared to balancing around 'fun'.
Which do you think will make more people happy?
-calldown
To me at least, it seems that for pubbers 'balance' revolves around "fun" while for clanners it revolves are equality. These are *two* seperate issues. You can attack one or the other but to try both at once won't work. The average pubber wants the "uberfade nerf" because to him, it's not 'fun' getting killed by a fade - even if he only is 0/0. The average clanner on the other hand, would be requesting a JP/HMG nerf, because it's the *one stop win*. Clanners want fights that are based on skill (not merely FPS, but the game you've played up to that point), while most pubbers want fights that are fun.
Balancing around skill is easier compared to balancing around 'fun'.
Which do you think will make more people happy?
-calldown <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do people think clanners play for reasons other than fun?
-calldown
-calldown <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Our 'fun' relies more on 'balance' simply because we play the game with the idea of winning. If one side can easily win, then there is no fun.
I honestly don't see why pubs are any different in this respect.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Our 'fun' relies more on 'balance' simply because we play the game with the idea of winning. If one side can easily win, then there is no fun.
I honestly don't see why pubs are any different in this respect. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That sems to be the crux of the problem in my opinion. The fact you don't (can't) see why people from pubs see this issue differently is why there is this inadaquacy.
The assumption that "if it's balanced for clan play then it must be balanced for pub play" is a falacy, pure and simple. It has no basis in reality, and only serves to advance clan interests ahead of the other 90% who play on public servers.
The fact is, builds that were very balanced for clans have been horrid for pubs. We've seen this time and time again.
One of the things that I see tossed around are suggestions that clan players 'adapt' better to the game, and that pub players should adapt more. Frankly, I don't think that is true at all. If clan players WERE good at adapting to a changing game then why are they having so much trouble adapting to the game when it is balanced for pub play?
When skulk armor was increased and there was no knockback, did clans (playing marines) adapt? No. They whined and complained about it being 'too hard' to kill skulks until they got more nerfs put in. Sorry, that doesn't sound like 'adapting' to me. (no offense to anyone - just my opinion)
In the end this entire thread is conjecture since we have no idea what Flayra plans to do with the mod. He has to make the decision and he has to live with the decison. If he wants to balance for clan play, and alienate 90% of the players who play this game, then that's his decision to make. I may be saddened when NS goes does the pipes as a result, but that's life.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If one side can easily win, then there is no fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->This seems to be something that you are quite willing to overlook so long as clan balance is attained. Right now if you polled the general population here (vets and clan members excluded) and asked them, based on their playing experience, which team wins more, overwhelmingly you would hear that marines win more AND that marines are more fun to play. It's not fun playing alien anymore.
The stats I have seen support that, and only in very small games (5v5) does it even come close to balancing out. Nevertheless, many games are over shortly after they begin, and I have lost count of the number of F4 games I've been in recently. Balance is horrird ever since skulk armor and knockback were changed, and I hope the stats will bear that out to Flayra when he gets them.
In the end you can force through balance that only caters to clan players, but you'll find that the servers will become empty as people leave to find other more pub friendly mods. It happened to the FA mod, and it can easily happen here. You can deny it and debate it all you like, I really don't care.
It won't change reality.
Regards,
Savant
Play on a pub where there is a few good players and alot of random nsplayers and you will see any balance goes right out the window. Marines may start owning the game, grab all the res, "lock down" a hive (we're assuming the comm isnt one of those good players) and all of a sudden one or two good aliens could take back the game easily. Although at some point you could say that is balanced as the better players would win...
Btw what does removing knockback have to do with adaptation. Removing knockback makes it so that any ambushing skulk will always kill you, even in large groups you would hardly ever survive. Pubbers would have a much harder time trying to adapt to that than clanners (as we're assuming that not only could they organize better, but are going to be able to aim better).
I can only contest you on some simple facts, I will do so on this one:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One of the things that I see tossed around are suggestions that clan players 'adapt' better to the game, and that pub players should adapt more. Frankly, I don't think that is true at all. If clan players WERE good at adapting to a changing game then why are they having so much trouble adapting to the game when it is balanced for pub play?
When skulk armor was increased and there was no knockback, did clans (playing marines) adapt? No. They whined and complained about it being 'too hard' to kill skulks until they got more nerfs put in. Sorry, that doesn't sound like 'adapting' to me. (no offense to anyone - just my opinion)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If clanners could not adapt to it, what are the chances pubbers will? You contradict yourself. You say that marines have it too easy now but you have no problem making it so aliens have it too easy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If clanners could not adapt to it, what are the chances pubbers will? You contradict yourself. You say that marines have it too easy now but you have no problem making it so aliens have it too easy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Ahh, but that's the rub... Making it easier for aliens wouldn't make it TOO easy for aliens since it isn't easy for aliens now. It would BALANCE things since it is easy for MARINES.
Right now NS is the marine's game to lose. It's far too easy to secure a marine win. All it takes is a somewhat competent comm and half the marine team to not run off and rambo. If you have that you have a guaranteed win unless the alien team is stacked with 'elite' players. (on pubs that is rare, although it happens)
Alternately, it takes a much greater level of coordination to pull off an alien win. While that level of coordination may be present in clan games, it is NOT generally present on pubs.
Even when the marines are doomed to lose the game, they are STILL too strong. It normally takes ages to finish off a marine team because as a whole the marine team is overpowered even when they are losing.
Don't get me wrong here, I do NOT want ths to swing the other way and the game to be too strong for aliens. That would be equally as bad. However, we are nowhere near that now, and almost every pubber feels aliens are too weak. That HAS to say something for game balance.
Keep in mind it was my idea that was adopted in which aliens be forced to only build one hive at a time. I was also a key proponent of lerk spores not stacking along with other alien balancing measures. I do look at this from both sides, but many other people are quite happy with weak aliens and strong marines, it's just gone too far.
As for Sirlin's remarks, I really think you are taking them out of their intended context. The question you asked him was WHO should balance the game, and he responded 'experts'. I do agree with that, and it should be noted that being in a clan does not make a person an expert any more than being a 'random pubber' makes a person any less an expert.
However, the real question was not WHO should be balancing the game, but HOW it should be balanced. There's a big difference.
While I don't call myself an 'expert', game developement teams have called me an expert in regard to beta testing. I've been doing OS & game testing for 10+ years, likely before many people here entered school. I have folders full of beta CDs I have worked on, and flipping through them I can see how games evolved over the years. (did I mention I was on the Sierra beta for the original Half-Life game?)
Yes, a game needs skilled testers to balance a game, BUT, you need to balance the game at ALL LEVELS. One part of Sirln's reply that you conveniently neglected to comment on was the following:
Sirlin wrote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A good balancer is also looking out for the low and intermediate levels of play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Surprizingly enough, that is EXACTLY what I'm trying to do here.
I just wish it wasn't such a battle to get people to understand that this is just as important as the rest of the game.
Regards,
Savant
But who says we aren't? Please show me or explain to me how vets/clanners/experts push an agenda of anti-pub/killing lower level gameplay.
Like I've already said, the reasons most clanners won't like your suggestions, such as lowering skulk HP, <b>isn't</b> going to help. Skulks are plenty strong when used properly. They are plenty weak too. Even still with weak skulks, aliens still win their games in clanplay, and skulks all play a vital role in securing each and every win.
You state that making skulks stronger to compensate for suckiness on pub teams to 'satisfy' the other 90% is just wrong.
First, it's at the expense of us 10%, which, believe it or not, is what keeps game alive. An online multiplayer FPS game without any competetive scene will not last long. In my oppinion, a online multiplayer game is nothing without the competetive element. It will have no staying power. For this reason, the upper 10% is the most important.
You can always make the same old argument that clanners will die without a pub play, but this irrelevent, because I think everyone agree's on this.
I agree, pub play needs to be improved, but not at the expense of clan play. It's just backwards. Even if you don't agree that clan play is more important than pub play, if you have any sense at all you will recognize that <b>both</b> are vital to the surrival of this game.
Therefore, if almost every clanner says that lowering skulk hp would be an overall bad thing, then you shouldn't do it. Hurting one side of the gameplay for the sake of another is stupid. It's self-distructive and works against you as a developer.
So again, I ask for real solutions for aliens not being fun on pub games, not cheap, ugly, and brainless solutions such as lowering skulk hp.
Skulks also seem relatively ok where they are right now. If I'm really on my game, I can slaughter pubs 3 and 4 at a time. If I'm missing alot of bites and not really nailing in-melee bhop, I die to a single nub.
I think NS is quite well balanced right now, although it's too soon yet to really tell - 2.01 ended up being much more balanced than anyone thought it was. Which is to say - I think the team should just let things marinate for a while. Don't make any balance changes. Get the bugs cleaned up, do an official release, run the 3.0 tourney and give away those 9800s. Wait 6 months and see how the win ratio falls out in clanplay and pubplay.
The game must be balanced as much as possible for the top levels of play. The reasoning is simple, if it's not, then the occasional addition of a very skilled player on the pubs will be able to exploit whatever imbalance is there, leading to the complete domination of the other side. This isn't good for anyone. Whether the imbalancing tactic is one that pubs might be unable to pick up on or not, an imbalance available to those at the higher skill-levels will inevitably affect those at the lower levels.. simply because of the problem of high skill griefers.
At the same time, however, the fun needs to be maintained for those who are at lower levels of skill. So, let's look at the things that make it not-fun for those levels, and remember that the answer is not "gain more skills" for any of these, as that is simply avoiding the question.
As a low-average skill player, the thing *I* find the absolute least fun is insta-death. This typically happens when trying to defend a hive.. whether it be from sieges or from incoming marines. You've just sat around waiting in the hive queue, you plop out, and before you can figure out where you are, you're ripped to shreds by cross-fire from marines too far away for you to even reach before you die. This happens whether you're moving or not when you come out. Of course, part of the reason for this is that when a skulk spawns, it's a vanilla skulk. (Conversely, when a marine spawns, it's already 3/3 or whatever upgrades they had). So, one solution, to me, is to make it so that skulks spawn with whatever adaptations (not evolutions) they had before they died. Of course, in order to maintain adapatability, skulks would need to be able to "unadapt" something.. not sure how this would work, but there've been many suggestions to this in the ideas forum. Now, this suggestion might be a bad one because I can see it affecting the higher levels of play as well. Perhaps not though, because even if you appear as a fully adapted skulk.. you're still just a skulk.
The thing I find to be second least fun is getting lost. It happens a lot. Partially because the maps are confusing, partially because the minimap is next to worthless for describing the vent system on nearly every map. For this one, perhaps a much better minimap system could be used. Multiple colors to describe vent systems. (Say yellow overlay for vents.. green where it crosses the blue areas, and a darker yellow (or green) where vents cross themselves..) This is a change that I think would work well because at the higher levels, it wouldn't matter (they already know the maps) but it would allow the lower levels to figure out routes easier. It would also be nice if the minimap had an option to display common room names. I seem to remember someone doing something like that up here on the forums.. why in the world isn't that standard?
The thing I find to be the third least fun is lack of alien teamwork. This is a much more difficult one to manage, but might be helped partially by the map fix above, as then lower level players would know how to get from point A to point B, and could also be helped by having the name of the area in a constant location.. the upper left corner of the screen. Right now, the area name drops to the lower left when alive and the upper left when I'm dead. The thing is.. I don't tend to have a lot of time when I'm alive to be looking around for it. When I'm dead, I do. So I notice when I'm dead it's in the upper left and remember that. Then when I'm alive and I want to see where I am, I look to the upper left... but don't see anything. It takes a moment to think and remember that it moves down when alive. If the positioning stayed the same, when something's happening, I would always be able to just glance where I expected the name to be and know where I was. Again, this isn't a change that would affect the top-skilled players, since they know the rooms by heart as well.
Another way to make teamwork more accessible is to make alien communication deeper. Right now in the options, a bunch of marine voices can be assigned to keys, but none of the alien voices -- plus aliens only have two sounds anyway, and neither is intelligible until you've had a lot of experience. Make the voices intelligible to humans (not necessarily marines) and put them in the sibilant "hive voice" if need be.. but most importantly, give aliens more options to communicate through hot-keys that can be set in the options menu. The simple addition of an "Seek me!" voice (for follow me) might add wonders to the aliens ability to use teamwork. It would be very cool if aliens could hear "Seek me!" but marines just heard some sort of hissing or garble.. not sure if that's possible.
The fourth thing I hate is trying to close in on a marine. "Use the ceiling!" they say.. "Use the walls!" Yeah right.. the maps do not lend themselves to this at all. The solution to this is simply smoother maps.. all the bumps and textures look great, but they also serve to hinder skulks from using the one ability that makes them really unique. "Bhop!" comes the cry.. "Go away!" comes my reply.. that's just a case of "Gain more skills", which doesn't address the question of how to make it more fun for the lower skilled player. So how about this.. remove bhop from the aliens, but increase their general speed to compensate. This puts highly skilled aliens and not-so-skilled aliens on a much more level playing field.
After all, marines have learned how to play without bhop.. maybe it's time aliens did as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But who says we aren't? Please show me or explain to me how vets/clanners/experts push an agenda of anti-pub/killing lower level gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually, (and as you made evident in this post) it's not an 'anti-pub' mentality, but a moreso a blind drive to only look at that which will improve clan play. It's not that you're 'anti-pub', the pub people aren't even on your radar. They don't exist to you when game balance is considered. THAT is the problem. In no way do I think you are consciously 'anti-pub', I just think that you really don't give that 'lower level gameplay' the just consideration that it deserves.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Like I've already said, the reasons most clanners won't like your suggestions, such as lowering skulk HP, isn't going to help. Skulks are plenty strong when used properly. They are plenty weak too. Even still with weak skulks, aliens still win their games in clanplay, and skulks all play a vital role in securing each and every win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Must be a typo, but I haven't been advocating lowering skulk HP, I've been advocating raising skulk armor back to what it was in the last version. I'll respond using your comments as if they were written in that regard.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So again, I ask for real solutions for aliens not being fun on pub games, not cheap, ugly, and brainless solutions such as lowering skulk hp. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually, that's exactly how I felt when I had heard that skulk armor had been reduced in this build. Skulk armor never should have been reduced in the first place. For whatever reason, too many people are blind to the fact that there are TWO TEAMS that play in NS. Yet every time I hear a balance suggestion it involves alien nerfs and not marine beefs. You can't just arbitrarily make all balance changes on one team and expect it to be balanced.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You state that making skulks stronger to compensate for suckiness on pub teams to 'satisfy' the other 90% is just wrong.
First, it's at the expense of us 10%, which, believe it or not, is what keeps game alive. An online multiplayer FPS game without any competetive scene will not last long. In my oppinion, a online multiplayer game is nothing without the competetive element. It will have no staying power. For this reason, the upper 10% is the most important.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is where we are different. You see it as all or nothing. You refuse to even consider ANY change that might threaten your style of play, regardless of how that change might be implemented. If we make the skulk so it doesn't SUCK on pubs (and don't get me wrong, the skulk is sucking on 'classic' pubs) then there is no reason we can't manipulate other aspects of the game to make up for it that won't impact pub play.
As I noted in <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=65011' target='_blank'>this thread</a>, you don't HAVE to impact one style of play when you affect another style of play. That's where we are different. I'm willing to look at the bigger picture and dig deeper to find solutions to these problems without saying 'too bad' should a balance option not suit me.
If you read what I posted from above, you'll find that I am also sensitive to clan needs, but not as the expense of public needs. The opposite is also true. That's why I pushed to have hives only buildable one after the other. This was a very favourable clan change, as was removing the ability of spores to stack. (or at least many clanners told me they appreciated those changes) Alternately, these changes weren't as significant on public servers.
Balance is about looking out for the needs of ALL players at ALL levels. If raising skulk armor back to previous levels makes pub games more vable, then we should do it. If it negatively impacts clan games to significant extent, then we can examine what can be done to negate the change in clan games WITHOUT NEGETAING the positive impact the change had on pubs.
It's all about give and take and considering ALL the options. People should not be suggesting balance changes if they are not willing to consider everyone who plays the game. I'm willing to consider clan play, (within the big picture, not as the only element) but I also feel pub play is extremely important to the game.
You don't seem to want to consider pub play at all, and I can never agree with that point of view.
Regards,
Savant