I'm going to go as far as pulling another example from starcraft - bear with me here: Terrans. Every other player on battlenet still thinks they're too weak and unbalanced. Why? Because skilled playing with terrans required insane amount of micromanagement, at which point terrans owned most of everything thrown at them - being perfectly balanced. Inspite of that, and despite the insane amount of people calling for "more fun" Blizzard basically told everyone to GET BETTER FOR GAME TO GET MORE FUN. In other words, the fun is the carrot, get better and the game gets more fun. As a result they had hudreds of thousands of regulars who played often and a lot at a time, striving to get better, discussing various tactics and generally staying loyal. Now look at average game that balanced things "for fun" - command and conquer: red alert. There was a low-end balance, where people just mass-spammed tanks and it was a great fun to spam tanks like mad and then watch them all blow up in a matter opf seconds. But the high end play was so badly biased towards allied side, it wasn't even funny - so after reaching a certain level, people simply quite playing the game - IT WASN'T FUN ANYMORE. As a result there was never a community to be formed, except for some minor communities with custom maps and their own rules to try to balance out the insane overpowering of allied side in high-end play. Conclusion - people play to have fun. If you show them that by getting better game will get even more fun (more balanced for pro level) people will strive to get to that level. If you give in and balance it for general public level, people will not seek to get better, and those that do seek do get better (the backbone of any community) will reach the level were game gets unbalanced and simply quit playing. The community, lacking the backbone will simply fall apart from inside out. This is what happened to the Red Alert community very quickly, while starcraft is still played by many people. This single example is worth more then all the talk in this thread imo. So keep the balance as it is - balanced for high-end and make everyone strive to get better to have more fun. If someone quits because he doesn't want to learn, he was worthless to the community to begin with.
<!--QuoteBegin-Lucky_+Mar 12 2004, 06:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lucky_ @ Mar 12 2004, 06:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If someone quits because he doesn't want to learn, he was worthless to the community to begin with. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're not helping the case here at all, as this sentence especially sounds like more of the elitist crap that leaves people like Savant thinking the high-skill players aren't even considering what makes the game fun for lower skilled players.
Essentially, what that sentence is saying is "If you can't play my way, go away."
The sad part is, that's exactly what will happen.
As I mentioned, the problem is that we need something that lower skilled players can have fun at while becoming more highly skilled.
To address that, we need to look at what makes lower skilled games "not-fun" and address those points, preferably in a way that doesn't affect the balance (or if it does, only very marginally) at the higher levels, and in a way that isn't the toss-off non-thinking answer of "get more skilled", which simply dodges the question.
After all, your way leaves us with the choice of getting more skilled or quitting, because playing at a non-fun level simply isn't sustainable. Savant's point is "Let's make it so that the game is fun to play at *all* levels, and not just have the nebulous reward of "Oh, it gets better as you become a crack-shot/expert bhopper/blink-and-swipe master/etc.. so just tough it out til then."
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 12 2004, 05:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 12 2004, 05:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> First, it's at the expense of us 10%, which, believe it or not, is what keeps game alive. An online multiplayer FPS game without any competetive scene will not last long. In my oppinion, a online multiplayer game is nothing without the competetive element. It will have no staying power. For this reason, the upper 10% is the most important. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Mommieee.... Is Forlorn an elitist?
This is in stark contrast to Savant's wish to balance the game for everyone.
Starcraft is finely balanced in high levels, but its also great fun in casual play. Screwing around in 'BGH' is just as fun as going hardcore in 'Lost Temple'. THIS is what we should be striving for. You cannot please 10% of your fan base and give the finger to the rest and hope to retain anything. You have to be really full of yourself to think you are that important.
Ok I have a few questions, which version was more balanced, 1.04, or 2.01?
Who tested and balanced 1.04?
Who tested and balanced 2.01?
2.01 was considered balanced by the clan community, as well as a lot of pubbers (save the OMG FADE IS OVERPOWERED CAUSE I KEEP GETTING OWNED THREADS). Who thought 1.04 was balanced?
Why was 1.04 not balanced, and why was 2.01 a fair version for both sides?
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Mar 12 2004, 08:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Mar 12 2004, 08:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 12 2004, 05:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 12 2004, 05:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> First, it's at the expense of us 10%, which, believe it or not, is what keeps game alive. An online multiplayer FPS game without any competetive scene will not last long. In my oppinion, a online multiplayer game is nothing without the competetive element. It will have no staying power. For this reason, the upper 10% is the most important. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mommieee.... Is Forlorn an elitist?
This is in stark contrast to Savant's wish to balance the game for everyone.
Starcraft is finely balanced in high levels, but its also great fun in casual play. Screwing around in 'BGH' is just as fun as going hardcore in 'Lost Temple'. THIS is what we should be striving for. You cannot please 10% of your fan base and give the finger to the rest and hope to retain anything. You have to be really full of yourself to think you are that important. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yet another question, who should balance it? The pubbers or the elite of the clanners?
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Mar 12 2004, 08:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Mar 12 2004, 08:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Essentially, what that sentence is saying is "If you can't play my way, go away."
The sad part is, that's exactly what will happen. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> See, that's just it.
Clanners in the respect of skulks versus marine believe it is mostly balanced. You still see plenty of alien wins.
So the clanners are saying what we have right now is balanced.
Meanwhile, you guys are asking for the game to be balanced so that pub skulks can charge marines head on and not lose every time.
So you guys ask for the entire game to be rebalanced, starting with the skulk HP, meanwhile clanners who play at top level play (in other words, playing with little error) claim that it is fine for the most part.
Honestly, what is a more practical solution? Start from scratch or look for small ways to improve the game in favor of the aliens?
Such as;
- Improved hivesight for improved teamwork
- Walljumping for skulks (if you could do that you'd be better at doging a pub marine's shots... and therefore stronger skulks without actually raising hp)
- Patch up the res system on larger games (huge)
Raising skulk health is wrong and won't fix diddly crap.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Mar 12 2004, 09:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Mar 12 2004, 09:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yet another question, who should balance it? The pubbers or the elite of the clanners? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You wanna know who should be balancing this game? The answer is simple. Its the person whose been balancing this game all along.
Flayra.
You are still missing the point. WHO actually balances the game doesnt really matter. Its HOW its balanced that the important thing. Surely there is a way to balance NS to work out in high levels, yet be fun for everyone. Starcraft, amongst other classics, proves that its possible.
Forlorn, although I find your views awfully twisted, I can agree to all the things you proposed there (hivesight++, walljump, fix res system). How weird <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In addition to that, I dont really give a damn abou the skulk health at the moment. Leave it or nudge the armor up a bit, the difference is something like 1 bullet.
Forlorn, I think you're responding without reading.
Nobody on this thread except you has mentioned anything about changing the skulk health or armor.
Very few people are saying it shouldn't be balanced for top players.. in fact, if you read either of my posts, I specifically say it should.
Nobody is asking for newbs to balance it. The thread started off with EEK simply suggesting that pubbers be given larger say in the balance discussions.
And if you were to actually read my particular post that you responded to, you'll note I never said that the game should be rebalanced for lower levels of skill. I said it should be made more *fun* for lower levels of skill. This can even be done to some extent without any game-play changes.. I suggested a couple of them (better mini-maps, more alien sounds) back on page 6.
So slow down. Take a deep breath. Read the <i>whole</i> post. Then respond.
This is getting ridiculous. The entire argument has become about savant and a few people that think that he's right thinking that they somehow would serve the mod by catering to the new people that come and when they notice that the skills they learned in CS won't crack it here, and start whining that NS should adapt to them (i.e. become like CS). No offense but whether you like it or not, people play the games for the <i>enjoyment</i>. If you don't enjoy <i>teamwork</i>, NS is simply not the mod for you - but there are hundreds of others. On the other hand if you do enjoy teamwork, NS is about the only choice you really have nowadays - there's simply no other game out there with as much emphasis on teamwork as NS. For the umteenth time - I'm not an elitist. I don't belong in any clan, I'm not a veteran or a playtester, heck I personally think I suck as a skulk. What I'm talking about is not just NS - it's the general playing of any game. When you balance something for low level, you do it for single purpose alone - you want as many people as possible to try it for a few minutes and like it. Who is such balancing aimed at? Reviewers. It allows you to get better reviews so more people buy your game. That is the simple logic of gaming industry (and it has absolutely nothing to do with gamers as is, elite or new) (note - this is the point of view of a person who has personal contacts within the gaming industry and has beta-tested several commercial games). With NS being a mod that is free, it doesn't have this limitation. Flayra and his team can freely concentrate on catering to those that they know to have stuck with mod for a while, to care for the mod and want the mod to evolve. Yes, it comes at a cost of public play getting slightly out of balance (note - "out of balance" means that if both sides have similar level of teamplay, which is nigh impossible on pubs as it is). As such, just like CS got it's share of "WTH, one shot one kill weapons?! That's not fair for new people that come from deathmatch games! Cater to us, remove the weapons of this kind or we'll leave!"-kind of people. Did they bend to them? No. Did the mod suffer because of it? No. Why? Because at that time, CS was the only mod out there that offered some amount of teamplay in attractive package. Same thing with NS. NS emphasizes teamplay over everything. So it's natural that we get a lot of CS/DoD players that find themselves annoyed that they cannot use skills learned playing their mods in here. So we get the whineage. People are generally lazy - that can't be helped. But if you start balancing for those people, not only will you lose the entire high-end "elite" as you call them player group due to imbalance, you'll also lose the <i>identity of the mod</i>. You'll become yet another boring mod built on half life engine. And that will kill any mod, period. Also I'm getting tired of hearing "but they'll leave if we don't balance it to be fair for them" from savant. Not to even mention that this was <i>exactly</i> the same whineage that I heard when playing CS0.9x, I'm going to ask you - <i>where will they leave</i>? There is simply no game that offers this type of gameplay at the moment, with the small exception of battlezone 2. In other words, <i>there's simply nowhere for the fan of FPS/RPG/teamplay to leave</i>. Those that will leave are the ones that weren't interested in team-based strategy/FPS mix in the first place, and that's why I gladly bid those good bye. I like the mod as it is, and I don't want to see it go the same path CS did as they slowly balanced the mod to allow more and more solo action over teamplay. We all know how that one ended, and I don't believe that anyone here, including savant, would want to see that happen to NS. What savant seems to want to try to do is cater to those that do not respect the thought that teamwork and strategy are important aspects of the gameplay and wish to have <i>personal gratification</i> above <i>gratification of being a part of the group</i>. This is simply something that has given the identity to this mod - so if someone doesn't like it, he/she should go elsewhere, there are plenty of mods that would serve the need of such players better and NS would stay the way that current fans like it. This isn't elitism, this is keeping the identity of the mod. There's a huge difference between the two, and I'm sorry if some of you fail to see that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 12 2004, 12:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 12 2004, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ahh, but that's the rub... Making it easier for aliens wouldn't make it TOO easy for aliens since it isn't easy for aliens now. It would BALANCE things since it is easy for MARINES.
Right now NS is the marine's game to lose. It's far too easy to secure a marine win. All it takes is a somewhat competent comm and half the marine team to not run off and rambo. If you have that you have a guaranteed win unless the alien team is stacked with 'elite' players. (on pubs that is rare, although it happens)
Alternately, it takes a much greater level of coordination to pull off an alien win. While that level of coordination may be present in clan games, it is NOT generally present on pubs.
Even when the marines are doomed to lose the game, they are STILL too strong. It normally takes ages to finish off a marine team because as a whole the marine team is overpowered even when they are losing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are arguing that it is not balanced on pubs and it is easy to win as Marines. Since everyone who believes this refuses to post evidence to backup their points, I will go ahead and post as many server stats as I can.
Pub commanders generally are not skilled in strategy other than elec and lock down. That allows for the aliens to get hive 2 much quicker than with a pressure based strat. Hive 1 and 2 fades break down the hive the marines hold, put up third hive and end it.
Of course this is just one of the many reasons why aliens win, though the given example is what I see time in, and time out.
Actually games on pubs dont have to be balanced to be fun...
NS was an extremly fun game, even when marines owned with jp+hmg (in1.04), because you felt like a hero as lerk when you could kill one of those... NS 2.01 was a great version in my opinion.
To the stats: Usually there is a reluctance on pubs to go commander and even when teams are roughly equally skilled an average commander is likely to lose the game anyway. That is what happens on pubs: Sry I gotta go (Comm gone..) Can anyone comm?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
More important than strict balance on publics is the fun factor: Can I have fun as skulk, without having great skills? Do I like the hive 2 and hive 3 weapons? Are they usefull and fun? Do I like building? Is it fun? (or useful for the team?)
I think the game should be balanced for clan gaming, but teh fun factor should be improved on pubs. On pubs any level of teamplay should be rewarding in some ways, while in clan games only high skill and much teamplay should bring the decision. ?nd balancing should be done with passive means or boost but not with nerfing. So changing res costs is a good idea, while weakening a certain weapon is a poor way of balancing in most cases (acid rocket, charge)
If the ration on a public is like 70 to 30 percent I thin it would be fine. Most people have fun on marines anyway, even if they lose, as tehy can have their last stand (something that is almost impossible for aliens), they can spam GLs and HMgs in their base and hold out against onos. Even as they are loosing they usually enjoy the game. (As long as it doesnt take ages)
Aliens on the other hand are easily finished coz of a single error. When a marine (vet) sneaks up a ninja-phase in a good location it can be instantly game over for aliens. (Quick siege, not enough coordination among alien players, lacking hive sight guidance) It is not fun waiting in an endless spawn queue, it is not fun being "spawn camped" by siege splash damage, it is not fun feeling absolutly helpless against HAs, GLs, HMGs as basic alien life form. Being down to one hive in a pub, after being sieged, usually means game over and "not fun".
Marine toys work so why dont alien toys work as well? Give the aliens fun things to play with (working acid, decent web as hive 3 weapon, a nice brutal charge..)
I miss the so called mid-game of earler builds. Flayra sure managed to shorten game length to 20 minutes, but I think that this is taking away from the fun aspect of the game. (This was probably done by RFK, and cheaper upgrades and equipment, speeding up availability of high tech.) If Onos and level 3 armor and weapon appear later, some things take longer to build, we would probably have a longer mid game on pubs, which promotes fun, as there are more things to play around with.
joe-pub, erm Lance
Aliens: add to the fun factor, if you need make rines a little bit better. As I said: As Marines you can easily have fun when loosing (most of the time) as alien the game could be over after a few minutes. (marines hold 4 or 5 res to long -> game over)
- Patch up the res system on larger games (huge)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what must be adressed. In large games we see marines win most of the time (given we have no skill stacking, no newbie commander and so on). Patching res system would help a lot.
Another problem is the lack of teamwork in publics. For gods sake just improve hive sight. Bring back all marines to hive sight which are in line of sight of an alien. Bring back the voice commands and the text messages on hive sight that were removed some time ago. This would help alien teamwork so much and would only slightly affect clan game-play.
No need to discuss who should balance the game. Those are suggestions on how to do it without changing clan games.
I don't even understand why the ability "teamwork" was removed from aliens (hive sight "nerfed" - removed voice commands, removed marines in LoS). This is what removed the fun in playing alien.
Lucky, you seem to be of the opinion that it's impossible to have a balanced game yet have it be fun for the lower levels of skills. May I ask why you think that?
I agree with the suggestions mentioned above(why were hives removed from <b>hive</b> sight, again?)
As a pubber i feel like i should disagree with the forlorn and firewater but the more i read the more i agree with them. Well there you have it! You turned me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Actually, as I said before, there is a way to have an balanced game in pubs. Those are just very rare, as most of the time there is significant skill difference between two teams. From 1.04 or so, which is where I started playing this mod and to date I think I saw a grand total of 20 or 30 balanced games (as in where both sides played on the same skill level, and the outcome wasn't determined until the very end). Generally adjusting thigns like hive sight is fine imo - although many people really should learn how to use minimap as well <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->. Personally I also like the idea of every alien functioning as a relay point for parasite - so every single marine that one of your teammates sees is marked on hive sight somehow. After all, you can see them on the minimap. Hives back on hivesight could help a bit too. But it still won't make games "balanced" for pubs, because the main unbalancing factor, the skill of players on the teams, remains unbalanced. It's like balancing out tens in equasion, while leaving thousands alone.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gold Leader+Mar 13 2004, 02:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gold Leader @ Mar 13 2004, 02:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 12 2004, 12:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 12 2004, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ahh, but that's the rub... Making it easier for aliens wouldn't make it TOO easy for aliens since it isn't easy for aliens now. It would BALANCE things since it is easy for MARINES.
Right now NS is the marine's game to lose. It's far too easy to secure a marine win. All it takes is a somewhat competent comm and half the marine team to not run off and rambo. If you have that you have a guaranteed win unless the alien team is stacked with 'elite' players. (on pubs that is rare, although it happens)
Alternately, it takes a much greater level of coordination to pull off an alien win. While that level of coordination may be present in clan games, it is NOT generally present on pubs.
Even when the marines are doomed to lose the game, they are STILL too strong. It normally takes ages to finish off a marine team because as a whole the marine team is overpowered even when they are losing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are arguing that it is not balanced on pubs and it is easy to win as Marines. Since everyone who believes this refuses to post evidence to backup their points, I will go ahead and post as many server stats as I can.
<a href='http://www.draculas.ro/stats-ns/maps.php' target='_blank'>Yet Another Example</a>
In each of these examples, aliens always have more total victories than the marines. These are your random pub servers.
You believe on pubs Marines win more often. Stats for these servers indicates that Aliens win more often. How do you explain this? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No offense, but these are bad examples of your typical pub. Could you find some better examples of pubs, ones that are more poplular? Some of your pubs that you listed have around 100 games played on them total. That's crap as far as stats go.
These are all some of my favorite pubs as they are almost always full. They make much better examples for stats as well, because I see these full like 24/7.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mr.Ben+Mar 13 2004, 07:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.Ben @ Mar 13 2004, 07:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As a pubber i feel like i should disagree with the forlorn and firewater but the more i read the more i agree with them. Well there you have it! You turned me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks. I try to stick up for the other side.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another problem is the lack of teamwork in publics. For gods sake just improve hive sight. Bring back all marines to hive sight which are in line of sight of an alien. Bring back the voice commands and the text messages on hive sight that were removed some time ago. This would help alien teamwork so much and would only slightly affect clan game-play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This wouldn't affect clan play at all... but it would help pubs a crapload.
Sure the little voice commands the aliens had may have been under used, but they were little quirks to the alien side which made it more immersive for the aliens and therefore more fun.
And yes I agree, having it go back to the basic premise of "all aliens see what other aliens see" is something that needs to be put back in.
I remember when I first started playing NS the concept idea for the aliens side was that
"Teamwork is so intuitive that using the voice comm will be an option you won't even need. Teamwork will fall together naturally to give the marines a good challenge."
...or words to that effect. I remember, the voice comm will be an 'option'. The alien team could quickly figure what's going on just by looking at the HUD. What in <b>hell's</b> name happened to that idea? I can't even imagine playing aliens without my voice comm, even on pubs I have to use it if I feel like winning.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally I also like the idea of every alien functioning as a relay point for parasite - so every single marine that one of your teammates sees is marked on hive sight somehow. After all, you can see them on the minimap. Hives back on hivesight could help a bit too. But it still won't make games "balanced" for pubs, because the main unbalancing factor, the skill of players on the teams, remains unbalanced. It's like balancing out tens in equasion, while leaving thousands alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The whole idea behind "balancing pubs" is to make it fun, and make it so both sides feel like they are having a good game.
Lucky_ wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The entire argument has become about savant and a few people that think that he's right thinking that they somehow would serve the mod by catering to the new people that come and when they notice that the skills they learned in CS won't crack it here, and start whining that NS should adapt to them (i.e. become like CS). No offense but whether you like it or not, people play the games for the enjoyment. If you don't enjoy teamwork, NS is simply not the mod for you - but there are hundreds of others. On the other hand if you do enjoy teamwork, NS is about the only choice you really have nowadays - there's simply no other game out there with as much emphasis on teamwork as NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->First off, I've never mentioned CS as a crowd I feel we should cater to.
Secondly, if you have read any of my posts, I have consistently tried to suggest changes that would INCREASE the level of teamwork on both sides. I won't leave you a laundry list of URLs, use the search function for posts I have started and you will find plenty.
What I do want to do is make the game so it is FUN for new people joining. It's not fun for most people playing aliens now, and even on marines it is only fun when the marines don't screw up or end up with an easy win.
Gold Leader wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are arguing that it is not balanced on pubs and it is easy to win as Marines. Since everyone who believes this refuses to post evidence to backup their points, I will go ahead and post as many server stats as I can.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->While this is laughable I'll respond anyway...
Depot's Nutz NS = 12 person server Yes aliens won more games but they also had far fewer kills. Marines had 4500 kills to the aliens 3500 kills. This tells me that most alien wins came at the expense of marine incompetence or F4s and not from significant battles.
Absolut Stats = 18 person server but a CLAN server, most of the games played are by clan members. This server also has a signifiicant number of CO games in the stats, and only a small number of NS games in the stats. We're talking about pub servers on classic in this thread...
Freaks Unleashed = 16 person server. Again, Two to three times as many games played on CO maps as compared to NS maps. (seeing a pattern here?) Any stats that have high numbers of CO stats will show a higher number of alien wins. Again, look through the NS map stats and you'll see marines outkill aliens even when aliens have more wins. That's not balance.
Clan CF - no idea what player count they use since the servr is harly ever up. The sample is also only a hundred games (small ones based on player connection data) and not valuable for use in this regard.
Yet Another Example - Also a very small and inactive server, less than 100 games played. Not statistically significant.
If anything, a couple of these examples help to show that aliens ARE underpowered. The kill ratios bear that out. However they are not really valuable for our us here because of the include of CO stats or other reasons. (as noted above)
The stats I have seen from the larger more active servers have shown a SIGNIFICANT imbalance in the number of kills. (similar to the Depot's Nutz NS stats - marines outkill aliens almost 2 to 1)
If people are going to post stats, they should be from servers that are big and ful all the time. None of these 5on5 servers that are empty most of the time or only used for scrims please.
My experience in the game is that marines win more often. How do I know? I keep a list here. I grab end game screen shots and also have a paper where I just put a | beside the aliens or marines depending on who wins. Not very scientific, but does reveal that marines are coming up with more wins.
However, let's pretend that aliens and marines are dead even in the win/wn stats. There is *STILL* an imbalance in the game. Marines get far more kills and aliens quit the game far more often than marines do. That tells me that playing aliens is not NEARLY as fun as playing marines.
Perhaps someone can explain why people usually stack the join marine team entrance in most games? If they lose so much, who play marine? Again, even if we accept that they do lose more often (which I am not prepared to accept at this point) then it is obvious that it is more fun to play marines. Again, it shows that things are STILL unbalanced for the aliens.
Also, why do you think people like CO maps so much? Why, because they are fun and far more balanced (surprizingly) than classic games are. While there are still CO issues, they are not nearly as significant as the NS issues.
We can go back and forth here, but I know what I see in the games. That's what I am using to back up my argument. Should we get some good 'pub' stats then we can revisist this in more detail.
Granted the marines have slightly more kills, but it bottom line is skulk bite is #1, and the aliens are WINNING more (siginifiicantly I might add). This server is one of the better ones around.
Clan HK server (www.clanhk.org)
Skulk bite is #1
LMG is #2
Alien 79 Wins
Marine 50 Wins
Alien 6617 Kills
Marine 6802 Kills
Yet again clearly the skulks are not having a problem if the #1 weapon of choice is skulk bite. And the aliens are still beating out the marines.
Perhaps maybe you are the only one who wants it changed Savant, I really do not hear about anyone else complaining about it, Aliens are not only winning more, but skulk bite is #1, why change it?
So the fact that in those stats from two CLAN servers (which does not represent pub server action) that marines get more kills and lose more often but you feel this is balanced? Somehow that doesn't wash with me. No more clan server stats please, it only waste's our time here.
When you can show me stats from a strictly PUBLIC server I'll be more interested. No clan servers, no CO servers, just a pub server that plays NS maps.
That was the point of this thread, a discussion about PUBLIC balance. (thus the thread topic -Balancing For "pub Play")
Ok Savant, I'll play by your rules, perhaps maybe you can offer us some statistics of your own? I want you to find a server where skulk bite is not #1, and aliens do not win significantly more games than the marines. And these are PUBLIC servers mind you that are populated most of the time in a day, so there is NO WAY that it could be all clanners.
Thank you.
Oh if you didn't figure it out, I was refuting your point about how skulks need to have higher HP, they seem to be doing fine <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Firewater wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh if you didn't figure it out, I was refuting your point about how skulks need to have higher HP, they seem to be doing fine<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually your post proved just the opposite. The fact that marines have more kills means that skulks ARE too weak.
You can't just arbitrarily take numbers and twist them like that. Of course bite will be number 1 since the majority of aliens are skulks at any given time and that is the ONLY real weapon they have. If you took away all the marine weapons and just gave them LMGs, then you would see LMGS would be at the top of the list. Marines have the pistol that they use far more often as a secondary weapon and if you add the LMG kills with the pistol kills the marine 'basic weapons' come out ahead in kills versus the alien 'basic weapons' of bite and parasite.
Like I said, your stats actually helped my position more than anything. It shows that aliens are too weak since they do get killed more often. Even if in clan games they won more often, that does NOT make them strong. All it takes is a bad comm to cost marines the game, and the aliens would STILL be weak. The problem is that a weak commander makes the entire marine team weak, even though they would be strong with a good commander. So it is not indicitive of real world performance.
As for pub servers, I have looked but none of the ones I play on have public stats. I'll keep looking though. Maybe Voogru will grace us with some of his stats.
Marines always have more kills, because they can strike first against weaker units, even if the skulk's health would go up for those 1 or 2 extra LMG bullets, it would not make a siginifcant difference, and besides the aliens are STILL winning. Skulks are supposed to be weak, the light speedy defensive units. The people should cater to playing the way they are supposed to be played, not the other way around <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If the marines get more kills, why aren't they winning ?
Firewater wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines always have more kills, because they can strike first against weaker units, even if the skulk's health would go up for those 1 or 2 extra LMG bullets, it would not make a siginifcant difference<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->To clans it may not make a big difference, but in public games the skill of the average player will never be high enough to allow them to be balanced vs a light marine. The bigger issue here is that if skulks die more often, ESPECIALLY in the early game, this KILLS the alien game because of the single respawn queue.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the marines get more kills, why aren't they winning ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't play on the clan servers that often, so I couldn't say. However, as I noted, all it takes is a mediocre commander to ruin the marine game and hand them a loss.
HOWEVER, just because marines lose a game, does NOT mean that they are weak. That is the key point I am trying to get across here. You could make the marines overly strong, toss in a bad commander, and they would STILL lose.
So you can't connect a simple marine loss with the overall strength of the marine team. The kills are a far better indicator of the relative team strength, and even though the marines supposedly lose more often they get more kils.
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 13 2004, 01:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 13 2004, 01:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When you can show me stats from a strictly PUBLIC server I'll be more interested. No clan servers, no CO servers, just a pub server that plays NS maps.
Regards,
Savant<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is more fun to play marines. (Subjective, but it would seem that most people would agree with this point)
It is easier to win as aliens. (All evidence provided supports this point)
Argument: "Marine losses were due to incompetence" Counter: Thats right, this is the reality of a public server - you will not get a competent team all the time. Its just easier to lose as Marines because of the importance of the commander.
Argument: "Those server stats you posted were CLAN servers! They do not tell us about public classic NS" Counter: Well, players in a clan may play on those servers but for the majority or ALL of the time these servers are open to public play.
What should we do?
-Make it more fun to play aliens (large game resource fixes, etc...)
-Make it easier for Marines to win (Probably not necessary, as long as they have a decent commander it should work out)
Comments
Terrans. Every other player on battlenet still thinks they're too weak and unbalanced. Why? Because skilled playing with terrans required insane amount of micromanagement, at which point terrans owned most of everything thrown at them - being perfectly balanced. Inspite of that, and despite the insane amount of people calling for "more fun" Blizzard basically told everyone to GET BETTER FOR GAME TO GET MORE FUN. In other words, the fun is the carrot, get better and the game gets more fun. As a result they had hudreds of thousands of regulars who played often and a lot at a time, striving to get better, discussing various tactics and generally staying loyal.
Now look at average game that balanced things "for fun" - command and conquer: red alert. There was a low-end balance, where people just mass-spammed tanks and it was a great fun to spam tanks like mad and then watch them all blow up in a matter opf seconds. But the high end play was so badly biased towards allied side, it wasn't even funny - so after reaching a certain level, people simply quite playing the game - IT WASN'T FUN ANYMORE. As a result there was never a community to be formed, except for some minor communities with custom maps and their own rules to try to balance out the insane overpowering of allied side in high-end play.
Conclusion - people play to have fun. If you show them that by getting better game will get even more fun (more balanced for pro level) people will strive to get to that level. If you give in and balance it for general public level, people will not seek to get better, and those that do seek do get better (the backbone of any community) will reach the level were game gets unbalanced and simply quit playing. The community, lacking the backbone will simply fall apart from inside out. This is what happened to the Red Alert community very quickly, while starcraft is still played by many people. This single example is worth more then all the talk in this thread imo. So keep the balance as it is - balanced for high-end and make everyone strive to get better to have more fun. If someone quits because he doesn't want to learn, he was worthless to the community to begin with.
You're not helping the case here at all, as this sentence especially sounds like more of the elitist crap that leaves people like Savant thinking the high-skill players aren't even considering what makes the game fun for lower skilled players.
Essentially, what that sentence is saying is "If you can't play my way, go away."
The sad part is, that's exactly what will happen.
As I mentioned, the problem is that we need something that lower skilled players can have fun at while becoming more highly skilled.
To address that, we need to look at what makes lower skilled games "not-fun" and address those points, preferably in a way that doesn't affect the balance (or if it does, only very marginally) at the higher levels, and in a way that isn't the toss-off non-thinking answer of "get more skilled", which simply dodges the question.
After all, your way leaves us with the choice of getting more skilled or quitting, because playing at a non-fun level simply isn't sustainable. Savant's point is "Let's make it so that the game is fun to play at *all* levels, and not just have the nebulous reward of "Oh, it gets better as you become a crack-shot/expert bhopper/blink-and-swipe master/etc.. so just tough it out til then."
Mommieee.... Is Forlorn an elitist?
This is in stark contrast to Savant's wish to balance the game for everyone.
Starcraft is finely balanced in high levels, but its also great fun in casual play. Screwing around in 'BGH' is just as fun as going hardcore in 'Lost Temple'. THIS is what we should be striving for. You cannot please 10% of your fan base and give the finger to the rest and hope to retain anything. You have to be really full of yourself to think you are that important.
Who tested and balanced 1.04?
Who tested and balanced 2.01?
2.01 was considered balanced by the clan community, as well as a lot of pubbers (save the OMG FADE IS OVERPOWERED CAUSE I KEEP GETTING OWNED THREADS). Who thought 1.04 was balanced?
Why was 1.04 not balanced, and why was 2.01 a fair version for both sides?
Mommieee.... Is Forlorn an elitist?
This is in stark contrast to Savant's wish to balance the game for everyone.
Starcraft is finely balanced in high levels, but its also great fun in casual play. Screwing around in 'BGH' is just as fun as going hardcore in 'Lost Temple'. THIS is what we should be striving for. You cannot please 10% of your fan base and give the finger to the rest and hope to retain anything. You have to be really full of yourself to think you are that important. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yet another question, who should balance it? The pubbers or the elite of the clanners?
The sad part is, that's exactly what will happen. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, that's just it.
Clanners in the respect of skulks versus marine believe it is mostly balanced. You still see plenty of alien wins.
So the clanners are saying what we have right now is balanced.
Meanwhile, you guys are asking for the game to be balanced so that pub skulks can charge marines head on and not lose every time.
So you guys ask for the entire game to be rebalanced, starting with the skulk HP, meanwhile clanners who play at top level play (in other words, playing with little error) claim that it is fine for the most part.
Honestly, what is a more practical solution? Start from scratch or look for small ways to improve the game in favor of the aliens?
Such as;
- Improved hivesight for improved teamwork
- Walljumping for skulks (if you could do that you'd be better at doging a pub marine's shots... and therefore stronger skulks without actually raising hp)
- Patch up the res system on larger games (huge)
Raising skulk health is wrong and won't fix diddly crap.
You wanna know who should be balancing this game? The answer is simple. Its the person whose been balancing this game all along.
Flayra.
You are still missing the point. WHO actually balances the game doesnt really matter. Its HOW its balanced that the important thing. Surely there is a way to balance NS to work out in high levels, yet be fun for everyone. Starcraft, amongst other classics, proves that its possible.
Forlorn, although I find your views awfully twisted, I can agree to all the things you proposed there (hivesight++, walljump, fix res system). How weird <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In addition to that, I dont really give a damn abou the skulk health at the moment. Leave it or nudge the armor up a bit, the difference is something like 1 bullet.
Nobody on this thread except you has mentioned anything about changing the skulk health or armor.
Very few people are saying it shouldn't be balanced for top players.. in fact, if you read either of my posts, I specifically say it should.
Nobody is asking for newbs to balance it. The thread started off with EEK simply suggesting that pubbers be given larger say in the balance discussions.
And if you were to actually read my particular post that you responded to, you'll note I never said that the game should be rebalanced for lower levels of skill. I said it should be made more *fun* for lower levels of skill. This can even be done to some extent without any game-play changes.. I suggested a couple of them (better mini-maps, more alien sounds) back on page 6.
So slow down.
Take a deep breath.
Read the <i>whole</i> post.
Then respond.
For the umteenth time - I'm not an elitist. I don't belong in any clan, I'm not a veteran or a playtester, heck I personally think I suck as a skulk. What I'm talking about is not just NS - it's the general playing of any game. When you balance something for low level, you do it for single purpose alone - you want as many people as possible to try it for a few minutes and like it. Who is such balancing aimed at? Reviewers. It allows you to get better reviews so more people buy your game. That is the simple logic of gaming industry (and it has absolutely nothing to do with gamers as is, elite or new) (note - this is the point of view of a person who has personal contacts within the gaming industry and has beta-tested several commercial games).
With NS being a mod that is free, it doesn't have this limitation. Flayra and his team can freely concentrate on catering to those that they know to have stuck with mod for a while, to care for the mod and want the mod to evolve. Yes, it comes at a cost of public play getting slightly out of balance (note - "out of balance" means that if both sides have similar level of teamplay, which is nigh impossible on pubs as it is). As such, just like CS got it's share of "WTH, one shot one kill weapons?! That's not fair for new people that come from deathmatch games! Cater to us, remove the weapons of this kind or we'll leave!"-kind of people. Did they bend to them? No. Did the mod suffer because of it? No. Why? Because at that time, CS was the only mod out there that offered some amount of teamplay in attractive package.
Same thing with NS. NS emphasizes teamplay over everything. So it's natural that we get a lot of CS/DoD players that find themselves annoyed that they cannot use skills learned playing their mods in here. So we get the whineage. People are generally lazy - that can't be helped. But if you start balancing for those people, not only will you lose the entire high-end "elite" as you call them player group due to imbalance, you'll also lose the <i>identity of the mod</i>. You'll become yet another boring mod built on half life engine. And that will kill any mod, period.
Also I'm getting tired of hearing "but they'll leave if we don't balance it to be fair for them" from savant. Not to even mention that this was <i>exactly</i> the same whineage that I heard when playing CS0.9x, I'm going to ask you - <i>where will they leave</i>? There is simply no game that offers this type of gameplay at the moment, with the small exception of battlezone 2. In other words, <i>there's simply nowhere for the fan of FPS/RPG/teamplay to leave</i>. Those that will leave are the ones that weren't interested in team-based strategy/FPS mix in the first place, and that's why I gladly bid those good bye. I like the mod as it is, and I don't want to see it go the same path CS did as they slowly balanced the mod to allow more and more solo action over teamplay. We all know how that one ended, and I don't believe that anyone here, including savant, would want to see that happen to NS.
What savant seems to want to try to do is cater to those that do not respect the thought that teamwork and strategy are important aspects of the gameplay and wish to have <i>personal gratification</i> above <i>gratification of being a part of the group</i>. This is simply something that has given the identity to this mod - so if someone doesn't like it, he/she should go elsewhere, there are plenty of mods that would serve the need of such players better and NS would stay the way that current fans like it. This isn't elitism, this is keeping the identity of the mod. There's a huge difference between the two, and I'm sorry if some of you fail to see that.
Right now NS is the marine's game to lose. It's far too easy to secure a marine win. All it takes is a somewhat competent comm and half the marine team to not run off and rambo. If you have that you have a guaranteed win unless the alien team is stacked with 'elite' players. (on pubs that is rare, although it happens)
Alternately, it takes a much greater level of coordination to pull off an alien win. While that level of coordination may be present in clan games, it is NOT generally present on pubs.
Even when the marines are doomed to lose the game, they are STILL too strong. It normally takes ages to finish off a marine team because as a whole the marine team is overpowered even when they are losing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are arguing that it is not balanced on pubs and it is easy to win as Marines. Since everyone who believes this refuses to post evidence to backup their points, I will go ahead and post as many server stats as I can.
<a href='http://dominant.webtechnet.net/psychostats/maps.html' target='_blank'>Depot's Nutz NS</a>
<a href='http://absolut.nochumps.com/stats/maps.html' target='_blank'>Absolut Stats</a>
<a href='http://www.freaksunleashed.com/ns/maps.html' target='_blank'>Freaks Unleashed</a>
<a href='http://www.clancf.net/stats/NS3/maps.php' target='_blank'>Clan CF</a>
<a href='http://www.draculas.ro/stats-ns/maps.php' target='_blank'>Yet Another Example</a>
In each of these examples, aliens always have more total victories than the marines. These are your random pub servers.
You believe on pubs Marines win more often. Stats for these servers indicates that Aliens win more often. How do you explain this?
Of course this is just one of the many reasons why aliens win, though the given example is what I see time in, and time out.
NS was an extremly fun game, even when marines owned with jp+hmg (in1.04), because you felt like a hero as lerk when you could kill one of those...
NS 2.01 was a great version in my opinion.
To the stats: Usually there is a reluctance on pubs to go commander and even when teams are roughly equally skilled an average commander is likely to lose the game anyway. That is what happens on pubs: Sry I gotta go (Comm gone..) Can anyone comm?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
More important than strict balance on publics is the fun factor: Can I have fun as skulk, without having great skills? Do I like the hive 2 and hive 3 weapons? Are they usefull and fun? Do I like building? Is it fun? (or useful for the team?)
I think the game should be balanced for clan gaming, but teh fun factor should be improved on pubs. On pubs any level of teamplay should be rewarding in some ways, while in clan games only high skill and much teamplay should bring the decision.
?nd balancing should be done with passive means or boost but not with nerfing. So changing res costs is a good idea, while weakening a certain weapon is a poor way of balancing in most cases (acid rocket, charge)
If the ration on a public is like 70 to 30 percent I thin it would be fine. Most people have fun on marines anyway, even if they lose, as tehy can have their last stand (something that is almost impossible for aliens), they can spam GLs and HMgs in their base and hold out against onos. Even as they are loosing they usually enjoy the game. (As long as it doesnt take ages)
Aliens on the other hand are easily finished coz of a single error. When a marine (vet) sneaks up a ninja-phase in a good location it can be instantly game over for aliens. (Quick siege, not enough coordination among alien players, lacking hive sight guidance) It is not fun waiting in an endless spawn queue, it is not fun being "spawn camped" by siege splash damage, it is not fun feeling absolutly helpless against HAs, GLs, HMGs as basic alien life form. Being down to one hive in a pub, after being sieged, usually means game over and "not fun".
Marine toys work so why dont alien toys work as well? Give the aliens fun things to play with (working acid, decent web as hive 3 weapon, a nice brutal charge..)
I miss the so called mid-game of earler builds. Flayra sure managed to shorten game length to 20 minutes, but I think that this is taking away from the fun aspect of the game. (This was probably done by RFK, and cheaper upgrades and equipment, speeding up availability of high tech.)
If Onos and level 3 armor and weapon appear later, some things take longer to build, we would probably have a longer mid game on pubs, which promotes fun, as there are more things to play around with.
joe-pub, erm Lance
Aliens: add to the fun factor, if you need make rines a little bit better. As I said: As Marines you can easily have fun when loosing (most of the time) as alien the game could be over after a few minutes. (marines hold 4 or 5 res to long -> game over)
- Patch up the res system on larger games (huge)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what must be adressed. In large games we see marines win most of the time (given we have no skill stacking, no newbie commander and so on).
Patching res system would help a lot.
Another problem is the lack of teamwork in publics. For gods sake just improve hive sight. Bring back all marines to hive sight which are in line of sight of an alien. Bring back the voice commands and the text messages on hive sight that were removed some time ago. This would help alien teamwork so much and would only slightly affect clan game-play.
No need to discuss who should balance the game. Those are suggestions on how to do it without changing clan games.
I don't even understand why the ability "teamwork" was removed from aliens (hive sight "nerfed" - removed voice commands, removed marines in LoS). This is what removed the fun in playing alien.
I agree with the suggestions mentioned above(why were hives removed from <b>hive</b> sight, again?)
Generally adjusting thigns like hive sight is fine imo - although many people really should learn how to use minimap as well <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
Personally I also like the idea of every alien functioning as a relay point for parasite - so every single marine that one of your teammates sees is marked on hive sight somehow. After all, you can see them on the minimap. Hives back on hivesight could help a bit too. But it still won't make games "balanced" for pubs, because the main unbalancing factor, the skill of players on the teams, remains unbalanced. It's like balancing out tens in equasion, while leaving thousands alone.
Right now NS is the marine's game to lose. It's far too easy to secure a marine win. All it takes is a somewhat competent comm and half the marine team to not run off and rambo. If you have that you have a guaranteed win unless the alien team is stacked with 'elite' players. (on pubs that is rare, although it happens)
Alternately, it takes a much greater level of coordination to pull off an alien win. While that level of coordination may be present in clan games, it is NOT generally present on pubs.
Even when the marines are doomed to lose the game, they are STILL too strong. It normally takes ages to finish off a marine team because as a whole the marine team is overpowered even when they are losing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are arguing that it is not balanced on pubs and it is easy to win as Marines. Since everyone who believes this refuses to post evidence to backup their points, I will go ahead and post as many server stats as I can.
<a href='http://dominant.webtechnet.net/psychostats/maps.html' target='_blank'>Depot's Nutz NS</a>
<a href='http://absolut.nochumps.com/stats/maps.html' target='_blank'>Absolut Stats</a>
<a href='http://www.freaksunleashed.com/ns/maps.html' target='_blank'>Freaks Unleashed</a>
<a href='http://www.clancf.net/stats/NS3/maps.php' target='_blank'>Clan CF</a>
<a href='http://www.draculas.ro/stats-ns/maps.php' target='_blank'>Yet Another Example</a>
In each of these examples, aliens always have more total victories than the marines. These are your random pub servers.
You believe on pubs Marines win more often. Stats for these servers indicates that Aliens win more often. How do you explain this? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No offense, but these are bad examples of your typical pub. Could you find some better examples of pubs, ones that are more poplular? Some of your pubs that you listed have around 100 games played on them total. That's crap as far as stats go.
Stats for pub's I'd like to see:
- Tactical Gamer
- Lunixmonster
- |PT|Predatorial-Selection (combat only)
- [FAT]'s Accidental Bowel Movement v3.0
- OSS NS 3.0 Beta 3
- www.TheMrMen.net NS3(beta3)CLASSIC(CD-Req)
- voogru.com, Natural Selection v3.0 Hive #1
- Guns4Back2School.com #1 (Voogru)
- nsKorea NS Server v3.0b3[CD off] - <a href='http://nskorea.org' target='_blank'>http://nskorea.org</a>
- BattlefortheGalaxy
These are all some of my favorite pubs as they are almost always full. They make much better examples for stats as well, because I see these full like 24/7.
Also I'd like to see more clan pub server statistics. Maybe something would be different in those servers?
Thanks. I try to stick up for the other side.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another problem is the lack of teamwork in publics. For gods sake just improve hive sight. Bring back all marines to hive sight which are in line of sight of an alien. Bring back the voice commands and the text messages on hive sight that were removed some time ago. This would help alien teamwork so much and would only slightly affect clan game-play.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This wouldn't affect clan play at all... but it would help pubs a crapload.
Sure the little voice commands the aliens had may have been under used, but they were little quirks to the alien side which made it more immersive for the aliens and therefore more fun.
And yes I agree, having it go back to the basic premise of "all aliens see what other aliens see" is something that needs to be put back in.
I remember when I first started playing NS the concept idea for the aliens side was that
"Teamwork is so intuitive that using the voice comm will be an option you won't even need. Teamwork will fall together naturally to give the marines a good challenge."
...or words to that effect. I remember, the voice comm will be an 'option'. The alien team could quickly figure what's going on just by looking at the HUD. What in <b>hell's</b> name happened to that idea? I can't even imagine playing aliens without my voice comm, even on pubs I have to use it if I feel like winning.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally I also like the idea of every alien functioning as a relay point for parasite - so every single marine that one of your teammates sees is marked on hive sight somehow. After all, you can see them on the minimap. Hives back on hivesight could help a bit too. But it still won't make games "balanced" for pubs, because the main unbalancing factor, the skill of players on the teams, remains unbalanced. It's like balancing out tens in equasion, while leaving thousands alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The whole idea behind "balancing pubs" is to make it fun, and make it so both sides feel like they are having a good game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The entire argument has become about savant and a few people that think that he's right thinking that they somehow would serve the mod by catering to the new people that come and when they notice that the skills they learned in CS won't crack it here, and start whining that NS should adapt to them (i.e. become like CS). No offense but whether you like it or not, people play the games for the enjoyment. If you don't enjoy teamwork, NS is simply not the mod for you - but there are hundreds of others. On the other hand if you do enjoy teamwork, NS is about the only choice you really have nowadays - there's simply no other game out there with as much emphasis on teamwork as NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->First off, I've never mentioned CS as a crowd I feel we should cater to.
Secondly, if you have read any of my posts, I have consistently tried to suggest changes that would INCREASE the level of teamwork on both sides. I won't leave you a laundry list of URLs, use the search function for posts I have started and you will find plenty.
What I do want to do is make the game so it is FUN for new people joining. It's not fun for most people playing aliens now, and even on marines it is only fun when the marines don't screw up or end up with an easy win.
Gold Leader wrote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are arguing that it is not balanced on pubs and it is easy to win as Marines. Since everyone who believes this refuses to post evidence to backup their points, I will go ahead and post as many server stats as I can.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->While this is laughable I'll respond anyway...
Depot's Nutz NS = 12 person server
Yes aliens won more games but they also had far fewer kills. Marines had 4500 kills to the aliens 3500 kills. This tells me that most alien wins came at the expense of marine incompetence or F4s and not from significant battles.
Absolut Stats = 18 person server but a CLAN server, most of the games played are by clan members. This server also has a signifiicant number of CO games in the stats, and only a small number of NS games in the stats. We're talking about pub servers on classic in this thread...
Freaks Unleashed = 16 person server. Again, Two to three times as many games played on CO maps as compared to NS maps. (seeing a pattern here?) Any stats that have high numbers of CO stats will show a higher number of alien wins. Again, look through the NS map stats and you'll see marines outkill aliens even when aliens have more wins. That's not balance.
Clan CF - no idea what player count they use since the servr is harly ever up. The sample is also only a hundred games (small ones based on player connection data) and not valuable for use in this regard.
Yet Another Example - Also a very small and inactive server, less than 100 games played. Not statistically significant.
If anything, a couple of these examples help to show that aliens ARE underpowered. The kill ratios bear that out. However they are not really valuable for our us here because of the include of CO stats or other reasons. (as noted above)
The stats I have seen from the larger more active servers have shown a SIGNIFICANT imbalance in the number of kills. (similar to the Depot's Nutz NS stats - marines outkill aliens almost 2 to 1)
If people are going to post stats, they should be from servers that are big and ful all the time. None of these 5on5 servers that are empty most of the time or only used for scrims please.
My experience in the game is that marines win more often. How do I know? I keep a list here. I grab end game screen shots and also have a paper where I just put a | beside the aliens or marines depending on who wins. Not very scientific, but does reveal that marines are coming up with more wins.
However, let's pretend that aliens and marines are dead even in the win/wn stats. There is *STILL* an imbalance in the game. Marines get far more kills and aliens quit the game far more often than marines do. That tells me that playing aliens is not NEARLY as fun as playing marines.
Perhaps someone can explain why people usually stack the join marine team entrance in most games? If they lose so much, who play marine? Again, even if we accept that they do lose more often (which I am not prepared to accept at this point) then it is obvious that it is more fun to play marines. Again, it shows that things are STILL unbalanced for the aliens.
Also, why do you think people like CO maps so much? Why, because they are fun and far more balanced (surprizingly) than classic games are. While there are still CO issues, they are not nearly as significant as the NS issues.
We can go back and forth here, but I know what I see in the games. That's what I am using to back up my argument. Should we get some good 'pub' stats then we can revisist this in more detail.
Regards,
Savant
Please note the map stats, and the weapon stats
Skulk bite is #1.
LMG is #2
Aliens 353 wins
Marines 278 wins
Alien Kills 33795
Marine Kills 34999
Granted the marines have slightly more kills, but it bottom line is skulk bite is #1, and the aliens are WINNING more (siginifiicantly I might add). This server is one of the better ones around.
Clan HK server (www.clanhk.org)
Skulk bite is #1
LMG is #2
Alien 79 Wins
Marine 50 Wins
Alien 6617 Kills
Marine 6802 Kills
Yet again clearly the skulks are not having a problem if the #1 weapon of choice is skulk bite. And the aliens are still beating out the marines.
Perhaps maybe you are the only one who wants it changed Savant, I really do not hear about anyone else complaining about it, Aliens are not only winning more, but skulk bite is #1, why change it?
When you can show me stats from a strictly PUBLIC server I'll be more interested. No clan servers, no CO servers, just a pub server that plays NS maps.
That was the point of this thread, a discussion about PUBLIC balance. (thus the thread topic -Balancing For "pub Play")
Regards,
Savant
Thank you.
Oh if you didn't figure it out, I was refuting your point about how skulks need to have higher HP, they seem to be doing fine <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh if you didn't figure it out, I was refuting your point about how skulks need to have higher HP, they seem to be doing fine<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually your post proved just the opposite. The fact that marines have more kills means that skulks ARE too weak.
You can't just arbitrarily take numbers and twist them like that. Of course bite will be number 1 since the majority of aliens are skulks at any given time and that is the ONLY real weapon they have. If you took away all the marine weapons and just gave them LMGs, then you would see LMGS would be at the top of the list. Marines have the pistol that they use far more often as a secondary weapon and if you add the LMG kills with the pistol kills the marine 'basic weapons' come out ahead in kills versus the alien 'basic weapons' of bite and parasite.
Like I said, your stats actually helped my position more than anything. It shows that aliens are too weak since they do get killed more often. Even if in clan games they won more often, that does NOT make them strong. All it takes is a bad comm to cost marines the game, and the aliens would STILL be weak. The problem is that a weak commander makes the entire marine team weak, even though they would be strong with a good commander. So it is not indicitive of real world performance.
As for pub servers, I have looked but none of the ones I play on have public stats. I'll keep looking though. Maybe Voogru will grace us with some of his stats.
Regards,
Savant
If the marines get more kills, why aren't they winning ?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines always have more kills, because they can strike first against weaker units, even if the skulk's health would go up for those 1 or 2 extra LMG bullets, it would not make a siginifcant difference<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->To clans it may not make a big difference, but in public games the skill of the average player will never be high enough to allow them to be balanced vs a light marine. The bigger issue here is that if skulks die more often, ESPECIALLY in the early game, this KILLS the alien game because of the single respawn queue.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the marines get more kills, why aren't they winning ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't play on the clan servers that often, so I couldn't say. However, as I noted, all it takes is a mediocre commander to ruin the marine game and hand them a loss.
HOWEVER, just because marines lose a game, does NOT mean that they are weak. That is the key point I am trying to get across here. You could make the marines overly strong, toss in a bad commander, and they would STILL lose.
So you can't connect a simple marine loss with the overall strength of the marine team. The kills are a far better indicator of the relative team strength, and even though the marines supposedly lose more often they get more kils.
What does THAT tell you?
Regards,
Savant
When you can show me stats from a strictly PUBLIC server I'll be more interested. No clan servers, no CO servers, just a pub server that plays NS maps.
Regards,
Savant<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is more fun to play marines. (Subjective, but it would seem that most people would agree with this point)
It is easier to win as aliens. (All evidence provided supports this point)
Argument: "Marine losses were due to incompetence"
Counter: Thats right, this is the reality of a public server - you will not get a competent team all the time. Its just easier to lose as Marines because of the importance of the commander.
Argument: "Those server stats you posted were CLAN servers! They do not tell us about public classic NS"
Counter: Well, players in a clan may play on those servers but for the majority or ALL of the time these servers are open to public play.
What should we do?
-Make it more fun to play aliens (large game resource fixes, etc...)
-Make it easier for Marines to win (Probably not necessary, as long as they have a decent commander it should work out)
This is because skulks have more chances to attack marines because they are faster.
If skulks had just as many kills as marines, then something in the game is seriously flawed, because skulks are FASTER than marines.