I don't think anyone was bashing christianity; just bashing the people that forcibly try to convert us, which we thought you were doing because of the way you phrased it. I have not bashed christianity as a whole, but I will say that statistically speaking, I know many christians who essentially use the religion as an excuse to be as nasty as they want (God will forgive them), and I know zero christians who actually seem to be better human beings because of the religion. that's just my personal experience. I have a cousin molested by a priest, I have an aunt begging for money to go do missionary work (which as I've said I disagree with in the first place), I have an acquaintance who goes to church constantly and reads the bible every night but can't find the time to visit her dying friend in the hospital, I left a catholic school after only half a year there, because my homeroom teacher, a priest, made fun of my long hair, and so all the kids took after him and I was picked on unbearably for the next few months (and this is nothing compared to the usual physical abuse catholic schools are known for).
I'm not intending to drag this off topic. people have shared why they love their religion; I believe I have a right to express my lack of love for the religion. maybe you're right, and people who would feel better because of religion wouldn't find it if no one told them about it... but christianity is like the microsoft of religions, it has the religion market cornered -- I wish once in a while someone heard about buddhism or taoism first, and found fulfillment that way...
I'll just sum up with 2 immortal quotes. Karl Marx: "Religion is the opiate of the masses," and Steppenwolf: "God damn the pusher man."
<!--QuoteBegin-Transmission+Mar 24 2004, 10:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Transmission @ Mar 24 2004, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But they all have the same core idea, loving God. Ghandi wrote an entire book on how all religions are the same titles <i>All Religions Are True</i>. However, it is largely critized and disputed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Believe it or not, saying all religions are true is actually a HUGE slam to a lot of faithfull people.
For example, would you like to tell the nature worshipper that he has the same ammount of validity as the institutional Catholic Church? Or the Christian that Christ's death on the cross meant just as much as Lao-zi's few frantic writings before he rode off on a water buffalo?
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
edited March 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Mar 24 2004, 10:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Mar 24 2004, 10:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Unless your some kind of Sex-Loving Child-Murdering Taxes Cheating ****, you probably won't be "Conforming". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You paint a picute of christianity that it is so inclusive, it is not. Christianity does require some sort of conformity to their moral standards. For example, I am no sex addict, I do not murder children, and I do not steal, but according to the bible, I should be dragged out and stoned to death anyway. If I lived back in the day when the bible=law, I would be forced to conform or die. Now I am forced to conform or go to hell.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For example, would you like to tell the nature worshipper that he has the same ammount of validity as the institutional Catholic Church?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well since nature worship has been around a hell of a lot longer than christianity, I'd say that a nature worshiper has MORE valitidty than the Catholic church.
<!--QuoteBegin-AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Mar 24 2004, 10:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Mar 24 2004, 10:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Mar 24 2004, 10:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Mar 24 2004, 10:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Unless your some kind of Sex-Loving Child-Murdering Taxes Cheating ****, you probably won't be "Conforming". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You paint a picute of christianity that it is so inclusive, it is not. Christianity does require some sort of conformity to their moral standards. For example, I am no sex addict, I do not murder children, and I do not steal, but according to the bible, I should be dragged out and stoned to death anyway. If I lived back in the day when the bible=law, I would be forced to conform or die. Now I am forced to conform or go to hell. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Your are never forced to conform. Just realize that you can't earn your way to heaven, and ask God for a hand up. That's it. That's Christianity. Morals come about as a way of glorifying God, and making our lives healthyer, but they are not a needed part of salvation.
Simple belief in the fact that we are all messed up, and Christ can fix us is all that the bible teaches we need to do.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Mar 24 2004, 11:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Mar 24 2004, 11:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Transmission+Mar 24 2004, 10:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Transmission @ Mar 24 2004, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But they all have the same core idea, loving God. Ghandi wrote an entire book on how all religions are the same titles <i>All Religions Are True</i>. However, it is largely critized and disputed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Believe it or not, saying all religions are true is actually a HUGE slam to a lot of faithfull people.
For example, would you like to tell the nature worshipper that he has the same ammount of validity as the institutional Catholic Church? Or the Christian that Christ's death on the cross meant just as much as Lao-zi's few frantic writings before he rode off on a water buffalo? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, I don't like Ghandi's view on this subject at all, and think it's a 'slam' as well. That's why I added that it's critized and disputed. I just wanted to show where Lanfear was coming from.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Mar 24 2004, 10:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Mar 24 2004, 10:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your are never forced to conform. Just realize that you can't earn your way to heaven, and ask God for a hand up. That's it. That's Christianity. Morals come about as a way of glorifying God, and making our lives healthyer, but they are not a needed part of salvation.
Simple belief in the fact that we are all messed up, and Christ can fix us is all that the bible teaches we need to do. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I dunno, when the bible says that i should die if I don't do what it says, I'm pretty sure that I'm being told to conform at that point.
<!--QuoteBegin-Transmission+Mar 24 2004, 10:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Transmission @ Mar 24 2004, 10:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Mar 24 2004, 11:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Mar 24 2004, 11:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Transmission+Mar 24 2004, 10:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Transmission @ Mar 24 2004, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But they all have the same core idea, loving God. Ghandi wrote an entire book on how all religions are the same titles <i>All Religions Are True</i>. However, it is largely critized and disputed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Believe it or not, saying all religions are true is actually a HUGE slam to a lot of faithfull people.
For example, would you like to tell the nature worshipper that he has the same ammount of validity as the institutional Catholic Church? Or the Christian that Christ's death on the cross meant just as much as Lao-zi's few frantic writings before he rode off on a water buffalo? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, I don't like Ghandi's view on this subject at all, and think it's a 'slam' as well. That's why I added that it's critized and disputed. I just wanted to show where Lanfear was coming from. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Point taken.
Still though, if all religions place significance on different events, it is impossible to say that they all strive for the same thing. Buddhism seeks for nullification, and has little place for God, where Christianity puts God on center stage, right smack in the middle of human history at 33 AD, and strives for a personal relationship with that God, ultimately resulting in living in Heaven for eternity.
Tell me, please, what is so similar about those two? Buddhism seeks to end all, Christianity seeks to have all that is really important, and the examples go on and on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dunno, when the bible says that i should die if I don't do what it says, I'm pretty sure that I'm being told to conform at that point. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Laws, written to keep Israel in line to that it wouldn't go out and take up all the pastitimes of it's neighbors. Child sacrifice, and the like. They don't implicitly imply to you.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
edited March 2004
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Laws, written to keep Israel in line to that it wouldn't go out and take up all the pastitimes of it's neighbors. Child sacrifice, and the like. They don't implicitly imply to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If laws written 4000 years ago don;t apply to me, then why should laws written 2000 years ago? The bible is an all-or-nothing document, Jesus says several times in the gospels that the old laws still apply after he is gone, the bible is always meant to be taken as a whole, salvation along with suffering, compassion along with devine justice. If one is to accept the fact that Jesus existed and died for your sins, you must also accept there are rules you have to follow, or you have to scrap the whole thing.
<!--QuoteBegin-AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Mar 24 2004, 11:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Mar 24 2004, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Laws, written to keep Israel in line to that it wouldn't go out and take up all the pastitimes of it's neighbors. Child sacrifice, and the like. They don't implicitly imply to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If laws written 4000 years ago don;t apply to me, then why should laws written 2000 years ago? The bible is an all-or-nothing document, Jesus says several times in the gospels that the old laws still apply after he is gone, the bible is always meant to be taken as a whole, salvation along with suffering, compassion along with devine justice. If one is to accept the fact that Jesus existed and died for your sins, you must also accept there are rules you have to follow, or you have to scrap the whole thing.
And with that, I sleep. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The bible is not all or nothing, that seems to be a common misconception. I, for one, have never been told to obey anything set forward in Leviticus (which names homosexuals as abominations, among other things), for instance. Christianity is an <i>evolving</i> belief structure. As times change, so has Christianity. When was the last time you saw a neighborhood church sacrificing a goat, for instance?
Besides, there is a lot of personal freedom involved in believing in Christ. I still have yet to be told that my interpretation of a Bible passage is wrong, or that the message I get out of a sermon wasn't what the pastor meant and I should not be thinking that way. I teach bible study lessons and discuss with everyone else what they think, and there are going to be a few different interpretations among the group. We don't pick one and go with it, we discuss the implications of each viewpoint and each leave with our own message. Christianity is a religion based on individuality, whether you believe it or not.
<!--QuoteBegin-TenSix+Mar 24 2004, 08:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TenSix @ Mar 24 2004, 08:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Best day this week for me was finding out this girl I know uses Google <b>and</b> uses proper puncuation in her instant messages. Amazing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> WTH
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Still though, if all religions place significance on different events, it is impossible to say that they all strive for the same thing. Buddhism seeks for nullification, and has little place for God, where Christianity puts God on center stage, right smack in the middle of human history at 33 AD, and strives for a personal relationship with that God, ultimately resulting in living in Heaven for eternity.
Tell me, please, what is so similar about those two? Buddhism seeks to end all, Christianity seeks to have all that is really important, and the examples go on and on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not going to get into the whole God debate. All I will say as a former Christian is that it can be very enriching to your life but it has too much influence in our society and laws.
Now onto the quote. I'm going to nitpick because you skew Bhuddist beliefs a little their. Bhuddism teaches you that God is everywhere including inside you and that you must discard all notions that you are seperate from God and accept that you are one being. So you are not trying to "get rid" of God, you are simply getting rid of the false notion that you are not part of God and that the matiral world is somehow seperate from the spiritual one.
<!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Mar 24 2004, 03:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Mar 24 2004, 03:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> First off- no, I haven't been granted any money. But this is why the day is so great:
I find out I'm passing in 5 out of 7 classes.
I plant the seed to lead someone to Christ today(he's really interested it seems).
I got chores done early and fast.
I got to play great games for a quite a long time already.
I just found out I got accepted to the Lineage 2 beta, as well as the Atriarch beta(for atriarch, I dont' know what stage).
And I don't think life could get any better unless I found a girlfriend. MAN today KICKED SERIOUS BEHIND!
And sorry to anyone having a bad day or life right now (Sorry DOOMeh, love ya man). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You have a pretty low standard for a "great day"
AllUrHiveRBelong2Us said something about not following the laws made 2000 years ago. Pure christians don't follow any laws, thier actions are guided by a sort of God centered causality, as outlined several times by Paul, James and Jesus in the new testimate. You cannot be christain without loving God, you can not love God if you do not love people "what ever you do for the least of your brothers you do for me", and if you love everybody it becomes increasingly difficult to find ways to do things that the laws of the old testimate forbid, although I can think of many instances where it would still be possible (eating red meat and seafood, all the stupid stuff about clothes and mold, and many other pentituke laws). throughout the new testimate it says at least 3 times "the only command you must follow is love your neighbor as yourself." The nature of christianity described in this way is better documented then any other generally accepted religious ritual we are used to seeing today. Not to say thier isn't more to being a christian than just loving everyone, but as far as lawcodes are concerned, there are no 2000 year old laws anyone is expected to follow, or else risk eternal hellfire.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 25 2004, 03:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 25 2004, 03:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> AllUrHiveRBelong2Us said something about not following the laws made 2000 years ago. Pure christians don't follow any laws, thier actions are guided by a sort of God centered causality, as outlined several times by Paul, James and Jesus in the new testimate. You cannot be christain without loving God, you can not love God if you do not love people "what ever you do for the least of your brothers you do for me", and if you love everybody it becomes increasingly difficult to find ways to do things that the laws of the old testimate forbid, although I can think of many instances where it would still be possible (eating red meat and seafood, all the stupid stuff about clothes and mold, and many other pentituke laws). throughout the new testimate it says at least 3 times "the only command you must follow is love your neighbor as yourself." The nature of christianity described in this way is better documented then any other generally accepted religious ritual we are used to seeing today. Not to say thier isn't more to being a christian than just loving everyone, but as far as lawcodes are concerned, there are no 2000 year old laws anyone is expected to follow, or else risk eternal hellfire. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You, sir, are awesome.
just thought I'd put that out there. I saw a few bad statements on both sides of this argument. But I don't claim to be the most intelligent person on the planet, and hardly the most moral. So I'll just quote a person who came to be known as a "reluctant Christian" and stave off a few attacks here and there, since they really do no good.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -- C.S. Lewis
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Flint Paper+Mar 24 2004, 09:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flint Paper @ Mar 24 2004, 09:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is that robot coming on to me? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's only being like that to get you into bed mate. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited March 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-DOOManiac+Mar 25 2004, 02:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DOOManiac @ Mar 25 2004, 02:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Shockwave+Mar 24 2004, 02:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Mar 24 2004, 02:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why is coil King of Common Sense when I said the same thing three posts earlier!
*Shakes fist at mods*
KHHHAAAAANNNN!!!! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But you're already king of Best Avatar And Sig Combo! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Gadzuko+Mar 24 2004, 11:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gadzuko @ Mar 24 2004, 11:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The bible is not all or nothing, that seems to be a common misconception. I, for one, have never been told to obey anything set forward in Leviticus (which names homosexuals as abominations, among other things), for instance. Christianity is an <i>evolving</i> belief structure. As times change, so has Christianity. When was the last time you saw a neighborhood church sacrificing a goat, for instance?
Besides, there is a lot of personal freedom involved in believing in Christ. I still have yet to be told that my interpretation of a Bible passage is wrong, or that the message I get out of a sermon wasn't what the pastor meant and I should not be thinking that way. I teach bible study lessons and discuss with everyone else what they think, and there are going to be a few different interpretations among the group. We don't pick one and go with it, we discuss the implications of each viewpoint and each leave with our own message. Christianity is a religion based on individuality, whether you believe it or not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How can christinity evolve? It's based on a document that was written 2000 years ago, you cna't just pick and choose which scriptures to listen to becuase the times are changing. And if one can simply re-enterpret the scriptures to go with the times, I'm sorry, but I simply cannot believe that any God would allow this to happen. Think about it, God gives you a rule (and he gives a lot of them as well), and he says SEVERAL times that these rules are to be followed, then a few thousand years after God gives humankind this rule, humans decide to use semantics (or outright revision) to change what you said. If that can happen to a simple law, how can anyontr trust "their interpretation" on ANYTHYING in the bible, even the most important concepts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> AllUrHiveRBelong2Us said something about not following the laws made 2000 years ago. Pure christians don't follow any laws, thier actions are guided by a sort of God centered causality, as outlined several times by Paul, James and Jesus in the new testimate. You cannot be christain without loving God, you can not love God if you do not love people "what ever you do for the least of your brothers you do for me", and if you love everybody it becomes increasingly difficult to find ways to do things that the laws of the old testimate forbid, although I can think of many instances where it would still be possible (eating red meat and seafood, all the stupid stuff about clothes and mold, and many other pentituke laws). throughout the new testimate it says at least 3 times "the only command you must follow is love your neighbor as yourself." The nature of christianity described in this way is better documented then any other generally accepted religious ritual we are used to seeing today. Not to say thier isn't more to being a christian than just loving everyone, but as far as lawcodes are concerned, there are no 2000 year old laws anyone is expected to follow, or else risk eternal hellfire.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well the new testament also says several times that we DO need to follow these laws. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Matthew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Romans 2:13 "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So basically, either you are right or I am right, and in either case the bible is DIRECTLY contradicting itself in no uncertain terms, since many of the laws that Jesus is commanding us to follow here are not very loving at all, and require a lot of people to be stoned.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+Mar 24 2004, 10:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Mar 24 2004, 10:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's a pretty crappy day for me. My g/f found out that I still spank the monkey. I'm in the doghouse for that one. She's not here, if that's what you're wondering. If she were here, I wouldn't be doing that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, my g/f watches me strangle the cyclops. If your girl is angry at you for doing that, she's not worth having around.
And to all the people in this thread attempting to argue against religion:
<a href='http://www.itsatrap.net/' target='_blank'>it's a trap!</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Too much information, son. Keep it in your pants.
Ghandi was on to something when he wrote that book. Although, just to nitpick a little bit, bible was supposedly written around 50 AD give or take, so that is just about 1954 years ago. I am not sure which laws you are talking about that are 4000 years old, however there are a few with the Mayan's, Egyptians and some of the older African tribes, which say the same thing as the bible, just in different languages.
In addition, if one of you can translate either Arabic or Latin, then I would suggest you translate the bible so it doesn't have as many flaws as it does now. As one knows, Arabic AND Latin have so many different meanings when it comes down to the same words that one can not directly translate such, thus whoever was doing the translation into english had some influence as to exactly what it said. You would not want to read the bible or any old writting if it was directly translated, because instead of "love thy neighbor as thy self" literally, in Latin at least, I do not know enough Arabic to directly translate it.
"One love as neighbor to one self as" - Direct translation from latin to english..
I don't know about you but if I saw that and it went on for around 1500 pages or so, I would get a headache from attempting to create a sentence. :-) [/off topic]
Debates are fun aren't they Doom? hehe :-)[/off topic][/off topic]
<!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Mar 25 2004, 03:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Mar 25 2004, 03:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The best thing to do is just tell them that your not interested(or if your a Christian, just say so real fast). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm...I tore a page out of a bible they handed me and chewed on it. :S
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Mar 25 2004, 06:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Mar 25 2004, 06:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why would anyone ever want to believe in <i>any</i> religion? Do inform me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It gives people happyness and support. And ofcourse let's not forget being forgiven for anything you do wrong.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
edited March 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Mar 25 2004, 09:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Mar 25 2004, 09:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ....If you're forgiven for doing anything wrong, why is it wrong in the first place? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that's pointless conjecture, nooblar <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
our human sense of morality judges what is and isn't wrong.
<b>just because something is forgiven doesn't mean it's made RIGHT. it's still wrong, but you've repented for it. you don't have to have religion to repent.</b>
Comments
I'm not intending to drag this off topic. people have shared why they love their religion; I believe I have a right to express my lack of love for the religion. maybe you're right, and people who would feel better because of religion wouldn't find it if no one told them about it... but christianity is like the microsoft of religions, it has the religion market cornered -- I wish once in a while someone heard about buddhism or taoism first, and found fulfillment that way...
I'll just sum up with 2 immortal quotes. Karl Marx: "Religion is the opiate of the masses," and Steppenwolf: "God damn the pusher man."
Believe it or not, saying all religions are true is actually a HUGE slam to a lot of faithfull people.
For example, would you like to tell the nature worshipper that he has the same ammount of validity as the institutional Catholic Church? Or the Christian that Christ's death on the cross meant just as much as Lao-zi's few frantic writings before he rode off on a water buffalo?
You paint a picute of christianity that it is so inclusive, it is not. Christianity does require some sort of conformity to their moral standards. For example, I am no sex addict, I do not murder children, and I do not steal, but according to the bible, I should be dragged out and stoned to death anyway. If I lived back in the day when the bible=law, I would be forced to conform or die. Now I am forced to conform or go to hell.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For example, would you like to tell the nature worshipper that he has the same ammount of validity as the institutional Catholic Church?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well since nature worship has been around a hell of a lot longer than christianity, I'd say that a nature worshiper has MORE valitidty than the Catholic church.
You paint a picute of christianity that it is so inclusive, it is not. Christianity does require some sort of conformity to their moral standards. For example, I am no sex addict, I do not murder children, and I do not steal, but according to the bible, I should be dragged out and stoned to death anyway. If I lived back in the day when the bible=law, I would be forced to conform or die. Now I am forced to conform or go to hell. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your are never forced to conform. Just realize that you can't earn your way to heaven, and ask God for a hand up. That's it. That's Christianity. Morals come about as a way of glorifying God, and making our lives healthyer, but they are not a needed part of salvation.
Simple belief in the fact that we are all messed up, and Christ can fix us is all that the bible teaches we need to do.
Believe it or not, saying all religions are true is actually a HUGE slam to a lot of faithfull people.
For example, would you like to tell the nature worshipper that he has the same ammount of validity as the institutional Catholic Church? Or the Christian that Christ's death on the cross meant just as much as Lao-zi's few frantic writings before he rode off on a water buffalo? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I don't like Ghandi's view on this subject at all, and think it's a 'slam' as well. That's why I added that it's critized and disputed. I just wanted to show where Lanfear was coming from.
Simple belief in the fact that we are all messed up, and Christ can fix us is all that the bible teaches we need to do. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno, when the bible says that i should die if I don't do what it says, I'm pretty sure that I'm being told to conform at that point.
Believe it or not, saying all religions are true is actually a HUGE slam to a lot of faithfull people.
For example, would you like to tell the nature worshipper that he has the same ammount of validity as the institutional Catholic Church? Or the Christian that Christ's death on the cross meant just as much as Lao-zi's few frantic writings before he rode off on a water buffalo? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I don't like Ghandi's view on this subject at all, and think it's a 'slam' as well. That's why I added that it's critized and disputed. I just wanted to show where Lanfear was coming from. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Point taken.
Still though, if all religions place significance on different events, it is impossible to say that they all strive for the same thing. Buddhism seeks for nullification, and has little place for God, where Christianity puts God on center stage, right smack in the middle of human history at 33 AD, and strives for a personal relationship with that God, ultimately resulting in living in Heaven for eternity.
Tell me, please, what is so similar about those two? Buddhism seeks to end all, Christianity seeks to have all that is really important, and the examples go on and on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dunno, when the bible says that i should die if I don't do what it says, I'm pretty sure that I'm being told to conform at that point. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Laws, written to keep Israel in line to that it wouldn't go out and take up all the pastitimes of it's neighbors. Child sacrifice, and the like. They don't implicitly imply to you.
If laws written 4000 years ago don;t apply to me, then why should laws written 2000 years ago? The bible is an all-or-nothing document, Jesus says several times in the gospels that the old laws still apply after he is gone, the bible is always meant to be taken as a whole, salvation along with suffering, compassion along with devine justice. If one is to accept the fact that Jesus existed and died for your sins, you must also accept there are rules you have to follow, or you have to scrap the whole thing.
And with that, I sleep.
People have been arguing about the bible for the last 4000 years.
Conclusions have yet to be made.
If laws written 4000 years ago don;t apply to me, then why should laws written 2000 years ago? The bible is an all-or-nothing document, Jesus says several times in the gospels that the old laws still apply after he is gone, the bible is always meant to be taken as a whole, salvation along with suffering, compassion along with devine justice. If one is to accept the fact that Jesus existed and died for your sins, you must also accept there are rules you have to follow, or you have to scrap the whole thing.
And with that, I sleep. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The bible is not all or nothing, that seems to be a common misconception. I, for one, have never been told to obey anything set forward in Leviticus (which names homosexuals as abominations, among other things), for instance. Christianity is an <i>evolving</i> belief structure. As times change, so has Christianity. When was the last time you saw a neighborhood church sacrificing a goat, for instance?
Besides, there is a lot of personal freedom involved in believing in Christ. I still have yet to be told that my interpretation of a Bible passage is wrong, or that the message I get out of a sermon wasn't what the pastor meant and I should not be thinking that way. I teach bible study lessons and discuss with everyone else what they think, and there are going to be a few different interpretations among the group. We don't pick one and go with it, we discuss the implications of each viewpoint and each leave with our own message. Christianity is a religion based on individuality, whether you believe it or not.
This thread has become "teh sux".
Conclusions are final.
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
WTH
Tell me, please, what is so similar about those two? Buddhism seeks to end all, Christianity seeks to have all that is really important, and the examples go on and on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not going to get into the whole God debate. All I will say as a former Christian is that it can be very enriching to your life but it has too much influence in our society and laws.
Now onto the quote. I'm going to nitpick because you skew Bhuddist beliefs a little their. Bhuddism teaches you that God is everywhere including inside you and that you must discard all notions that you are seperate from God and accept that you are one being. So you are not trying to "get rid" of God, you are simply getting rid of the false notion that you are not part of God and that the matiral world is somehow seperate from the spiritual one.
/end nitpick.
I find out I'm passing in 5 out of 7 classes.
I plant the seed to lead someone to Christ today(he's really interested it seems).
I got chores done early and fast.
I got to play great games for a quite a long time already.
I just found out I got accepted to the Lineage 2 beta, as well as the Atriarch beta(for atriarch, I dont' know what stage).
And I don't think life could get any better unless I found a girlfriend. MAN today KICKED SERIOUS BEHIND!
And sorry to anyone having a bad day or life right now (Sorry DOOMeh, love ya man). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have a pretty low standard for a "great day"
You, sir, are awesome.
just thought I'd put that out there. I saw a few bad statements on both sides of this argument. But I don't claim to be the most intelligent person on the planet, and hardly the most moral. So I'll just quote a person who came to be known as a "reluctant Christian" and stave off a few attacks here and there, since they really do no good.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell."
-- C.S. Lewis
It's only being like that to get you into bed mate. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*Shakes fist at mods*
KHHHAAAAANNNN!!!! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you're already king of Best Avatar And Sig Combo! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Woooooot!
EDIT : Sorry about the double post. :o
Besides, there is a lot of personal freedom involved in believing in Christ. I still have yet to be told that my interpretation of a Bible passage is wrong, or that the message I get out of a sermon wasn't what the pastor meant and I should not be thinking that way. I teach bible study lessons and discuss with everyone else what they think, and there are going to be a few different interpretations among the group. We don't pick one and go with it, we discuss the implications of each viewpoint and each leave with our own message. Christianity is a religion based on individuality, whether you believe it or not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How can christinity evolve? It's based on a document that was written 2000 years ago, you cna't just pick and choose which scriptures to listen to becuase the times are changing. And if one can simply re-enterpret the scriptures to go with the times, I'm sorry, but I simply cannot believe that any God would allow this to happen. Think about it, God gives you a rule (and he gives a lot of them as well), and he says SEVERAL times that these rules are to be followed, then a few thousand years after God gives humankind this rule, humans decide to use semantics (or outright revision) to change what you said. If that can happen to a simple law, how can anyontr trust "their interpretation" on ANYTHYING in the bible, even the most important concepts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> AllUrHiveRBelong2Us said something about not following the laws made 2000 years ago. Pure christians don't follow any laws, thier actions are guided by a sort of God centered causality, as outlined several times by Paul, James and Jesus in the new testimate. You cannot be christain without loving God, you can not love God if you do not love people "what ever you do for the least of your brothers you do for me", and if you love everybody it becomes increasingly difficult to find ways to do things that the laws of the old testimate forbid, although I can think of many instances where it would still be possible (eating red meat and seafood, all the stupid stuff about clothes and mold, and many other pentituke laws). throughout the new testimate it says at least 3 times "the only command you must follow is love your neighbor as yourself." The nature of christianity described in this way is better documented then any other generally accepted religious ritual we are used to seeing today. Not to say thier isn't more to being a christian than just loving everyone, but as far as lawcodes are concerned, there are no 2000 year old laws anyone is expected to follow, or else risk eternal hellfire.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the new testament also says several times that we DO need to follow these laws.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Matthew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Romans 2:13 "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basically, either you are right or I am right, and in either case the bible is DIRECTLY contradicting itself in no uncertain terms, since many of the laws that Jesus is commanding us to follow here are not very loving at all, and require a lot of people to be stoned.
Dude, my g/f watches me strangle the cyclops. If your girl is angry at you for doing that, she's not worth having around.
And to all the people in this thread attempting to argue against religion:
<a href='http://www.itsatrap.net/' target='_blank'>it's a trap!</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too much information, son. Keep it in your pants.
The fact that you guys have turned this guys thread about having a good day into yet another religion wars thread, which will probably be locked soon.
In addition, if one of you can translate either Arabic or Latin, then I would suggest you translate the bible so it doesn't have as many flaws as it does now. As one knows, Arabic AND Latin have so many different meanings when it comes down to the same words that one can not directly translate such, thus whoever was doing the translation into english had some influence as to exactly what it said. You would not want to read the bible or any old writting if it was directly translated, because instead of "love thy neighbor as thy self" literally, in Latin at least, I do not know enough Arabic to directly translate it.
"One love as neighbor to one self as" - Direct translation from latin to english..
I don't know about you but if I saw that and it went on for around 1500 pages or so, I would get a headache from attempting to create a sentence. :-)
[/off topic]
Debates are fun aren't they Doom? hehe :-)[/off topic][/off topic]
I had a wonderful night too !
Hmm...I tore a page out of a bible they handed me and chewed on it. :S
It gives people happyness and support.
And ofcourse let's not forget being forgiven for anything you do wrong.
Pretty handy! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
that's pointless conjecture, nooblar <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
our human sense of morality judges what is and isn't wrong.
<b>just because something is forgiven doesn't mean it's made RIGHT. it's still wrong, but you've repented for it. you don't have to have religion to repent.</b>
atheists should never argue metaphysics :o