Why large games will never be implementated for competitive play. a. Harder to gather members. b. Requires larger servers, which requires more money, even more so because NS is a cpu/bandwith hogger
Isnt it harder to coordinate and plan movements for a larger group of people? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And besides, arent we SUPPOSED to be with our teammates in this game?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, when I first read the topic title, I thought it was saying that a US Marine had won some sweepstake thing and he is now the new owner of the gaming company Rare.
But then I saw it was basically another debate over balancing the game and strategies and all that poo.
And my hopes were so high the marine was bringing Rare back to Nintendo... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-matchbox+Mar 28 2004, 07:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (matchbox @ Mar 28 2004, 07:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why large games will never be implementated for competitive play. a. Harder to gather members. b. Requires larger servers, which requires more money, even more so because NS is a cpu/bandwith hogger <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed
Savant: I think your comments are a little generalized. I'm sure if cal implamented rules to run a 7v7/8v8/9v9 etc.. clans would follow. I'm sure if ns was balanced in that way clans would follow. But, right now the clan scene has been set on 6v6 and will stay as such until flay/othell change or tweak something that dictate otherwise.
Opinion: I prefer small games compared to large because of how fast pace the game becomes. As an alien with only 6 players - choices to get a hive or get a fade, put that oc or try for another rsr happen in a more rapid succession which I prefer. Having less players also does put more responsibility on the individual as they make up a larger part of the team *Good for clan match's imo*.
I wouldnt go as far to say that larger games have more teamwork then smaller ones though. Smaller games have less people to group and coordinate true enough, but its harder to decide were to put each one across the map because you just dont have the man power to cover everything that is needed. Thats why clans must come up with mine/turret/elect tf/alien ambush's/parasite nets etc... to compensate. In larger games its possible to cover base in each location and keep a good sense of were the enemy movements are, but its harder to coordinate your team in response. Teamwork is obvious in both games types just in different aspects of how you look at it.
Additionally, the latest round of CAL games (both playoff and otherwise) was almost entirely composed of 2-0s, so. It looks like people are starting to figure out some of the tricks of the marine game.
I still hold that combat is highly unbalanced in alien favor, but classic really wasn't changed too too much, and seems to be mostly holding the balance of 2.01.
well, another 6 v 6 game tonight, and alien dominated as usual.
the way I see things right now, marines have to be tight, fast and flawless to win.
if marines die at all within the first 1 - 3 mins the game is pretty much over, ,as you lose the opertunity (its more of a requirement) to either kill alien RTs or their first hive. past 4 mins depending on how many kills the aliens have managed to get fades and second hives appear and the game gets a hell of a lot harder.
some will say its not too hard for marines to take out alien res if they are *ahem* skilled enough, but to be honest the game is so fast now and so stressfull, you need to kill alien RTs, upgrade, get your own RTs, lock a hive? and all at lightning speed.
I believe 2 equally skilled teams will see aliens win 9 times out of 10. the 1 time they lose will be an early phase/ siege.
Still saying this, I do play on larger pubs every now and then (usually I pub on the TW@ server which never seems to have very large games going on) and yes marines have it much easier.
This is why Savants thread about armour scaling seemed a good idea to me, anyway... rambling now.
<!--QuoteBegin-Melatonin+Mar 28 2004, 04:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melatonin @ Mar 28 2004, 04:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I believe 2 equally skilled teams will see aliens win 9 times out of 10. the 1 time they lose will be an early phase/ siege. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny that scrims/matches were a tie was the final result had about as many marine ties than alien. I'll agree though that it's easier to win aliens when the marines can't aim =D
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is why Savants thread about armour scaling seemed a good idea to me, anyway... rambling now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-lagger+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lagger)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Savant: I think your comments are a little generalized. I'm sure if cal implamented rules to run a 7v7/8v8/9v9 etc.. clans would follow. I'm sure if ns was balanced in that way clans would follow. But, right now the clan scene has been set on 6v6 and will stay as such until flay/othell change or tweak something that dictate otherwise.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's the point though. The setting of '6v6' is <b>completely and utterly arbitrary</b>! The first NS clan game was a 6v6 before ANY clan balance issues were ever considered in NS. So I say again, why do people get stuck on the notion that all gameplay has to be 6v6. Sure that may work in CS but this isn't CS. People seem so intent on making clanplay in NS to be nothing more than a CS clone and that bothers me to no end.
Clans need to adapt to the game and make their own tournament rules instead of trying to balance the entire mod to suit their own personal agendas.
Why not try a clan game at 8v8 and see if the balance changes at all. I'd love to see clans take the inititive for a change instead of just griping about how the game isn't balanced.
I know that aliens are favoured in small games just as marines are favoured in large games. So why don't the clans increase the gamesize a couple players and see how that works out?
Overall the clans need to realise that Flayra may likely reach a point when he says "Screw it. NS is balanced close enough, deal with it until the next version." The fact that people have an input into a game is a priviledge, don't expect the developer to change the game just to suit every niche issue that comes along.
In TFC clans made 'mini-rules' to make clan play enjoyable without needing any change to the game. (EG, no yard d, no bunny-hopping, no OvO attacks etc) If they can do it in TFC, I'm sure they can do it here.
Didn't I see someone's sig here saying that 'Veterans adapt'...? By the way some people complain you could of fooled me.
a discussion about how many player it takes to change a lighting bulb? STATSWAR?
this wouldn't lead to anything.
I, to take the word, think, that the only thing marines win so often in public is, that there are to many reshogs, going early fade, dieing and beeing a big loose for the team - you know, instead of fade, they could go gorge... build up 2nd hive... improving the whole team... but no, they are for the stats. IMHO the main problem about balance is the income of both teams, not cost of upgrades nor evolutions (not to forget: reshogs. but as some mod (max?) said: "we can only balance the game, not the players").
it's just that, since the resflow doesn't increase (at least not heavily) while there are more players, it slows down the whole process.
like a colony of bacteria in an experimental alignment (like in a hospital, in those glasses with the yellow-brownish noutris... (i hate it when i cant spell it) -stuff) which grew to fast and now has no food anymore. is growing more and more slowly, until it dies.
I think, the ressource income should change with the playercount. If someone says something against it, he can play it still "oldschool" - but something has to be done about that important issue.
I have to agree that I don't play in a clan and only on pubs, but I can imagine their problems with leage play & co.
And I noticed a significant income drop as i played 1on1 for fun, capped my rt, more and more players joining, suddenly we as kharaa had only 1 res per tick... this is horrible. Especialy with deaf players which play for themselfs.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I haven't been in a clan for a while now, but I have played quite a lot lately, on 12 v 12 and 6 v 6 games alike. I have observed that marines do have a huge advantage on very big games, while on small games aliens just seem to get res at ridiculous speeds. The main thing that I feel is unbalancing this game (this is just how I feel. Feel free to disagree) is BLINK. This is the one ability that makes fades overpowered.
Cara fades are fine, it's really BLINK that I have a problem with. When you have the equivalent of a HA in terms of life/armor that can move close in on the marines thanks to BLINK(marines lose their advantages of being ranged attackers), has a high damage attack that can kill marines in 3 hits (by the time the first fades arrive, there is no way the comm has dropped HA), and can run away with equal ease, all for 50 res...then you have a problem. And this is all at hive one.
If you drop 5 shotties, you'll have to make sure all 5 of your marines are always together. And if they get parasited, then the fade can just blink across the map attacking the RTs that aren't defended. If the marines split up, then they die horribly.
I propose that we either make blink a 2-hive ability, swapping it with metaboloize, or we replace it with the old 1.04 version of blink, which is perfectly fine I feel. With the old blink you can still get to places quickly, but you don't have nearly as much control, so marines still have a chance to shoot you. If blink is swapped with metabolize, then the marines will have a few more minutes of being able to keep their RTs,a nd they don't have to dominate during early game. I don't want NS games to be determined within the first few minutes of play. That is just...boring. The real fights should be during mid game.
I've always pushed for a 7v7 type of game, that extra person slows the res down for the aliens just a tiny bit, and the extra gun out in the field can only help the marines.
I think 6v6 happened because a lot of teams (1.04) had barely enough guys on to scrim. 6v6 is better htan no scrim I suppose.
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 28 2004, 06:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 28 2004, 06:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-lagger+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lagger)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Savant: I think your comments are a little generalized. I'm sure if cal implamented rules to run a 7v7/8v8/9v9 etc.. clans would follow. I'm sure if ns was balanced in that way clans would follow. But, right now the clan scene has been set on 6v6 and will stay as such until flay/othell change or tweak something that dictate otherwise.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's the point though. The setting of '6v6' is <b>completely and utterly arbitrary</b>! The first NS clan game was a 6v6 before ANY clan balance issues were ever considered in NS. So I say again, why do people get stuck on the notion that all gameplay has to be 6v6. Sure that may work in CS but this isn't CS. People seem so intent on making clanplay in NS to be nothing more than a CS clone and that bothers me to no end.
Clans need to adapt to the game and make their own tournament rules instead of trying to balance the entire mod to suit their own personal agendas.
Why not try a clan game at 8v8 and see if the balance changes at all. I'd love to see clans take the inititive for a change instead of just griping about how the game isn't balanced.
I know that aliens are favoured in small games just as marines are favoured in large games. So why don't the clans increase the gamesize a couple players and see how that works out?
Overall the clans need to realise that Flayra may likely reach a point when he says "Screw it. NS is balanced close enough, deal with it until the next version." The fact that people have an input into a game is a priviledge, don't expect the developer to change the game just to suit every niche issue that comes along.
In TFC clans made 'mini-rules' to make clan play enjoyable without needing any change to the game. (EG, no yard d, no bunny-hopping, no OvO attacks etc) If they can do it in TFC, I'm sure they can do it here.
Didn't I see someone's sig here saying that 'Veterans adapt'...? By the way some people complain you could of fooled me.
Regards,
Savant<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> CS is 5v5. 6v6 is just the standard used for most games for a very, very long time, I dont see why ns should be so different and making it different from other games could lead to distaste to new players.
The size of 6v6 was decided by myself. So blame me. I did it. I did give the option ( can't remember if I've removed it yet though ) to play 7v7 or 8v8 if both clans chose to, but that happened once... twice at the most.
Why was 6v6 chosen? It basically comes down to logistics. It is far easier to gather 6 people to play than it is 7 or 8 people. This is even more true if NS were to really move LAN competitions. I have personally experienced planning a LAN tournament for the CPL with team sizes of 8 players ( TFC ). It is an experience that you do not want to go through.
Also, TFC is a totally different animal when it comes to team sizes. TFC matches fluctuate from 8 - 10 players depending on the map. Most matches are 9v9, but for a lot of clans getting 9 or 10 players is a challenge every week. TFC has maturity on its side. You cannot say that if TFC can manage 8 players for matches then NS can also. NS does not have the maturity that TFC does. NS would not be able to grow effectively if team sizes were to increase.
7v7 would be a possibility, but even that extra player causes difficulties if NS were to go to the next level. This is an objective of many in the community and my staff and I will continue to do what we can to help NS reach the next level. Increasing team-size would go against that objective.
Meatshield - armor2 is worth an extra bite now, and I think there's sort of a 1.04 legacy in terms of favoring gun upgrades that's still hanging around.
Also, <i>if</i> 6v6 play is unbalanced, I don't think it's due to fades. I commanded a scrim vs. Ins the other day - they went for three fades, and within around 150 seconds, all three fades were dead. But the second hive finished building before we got a really solid foothold in satcom, and my siege point was overwhelmed by 4 or 5 leaping skulks, spawning and movementing in constantly. In another scrim vs. the newly-formed cx-net, we had them locked into subsector for most of the game, and killed one or both of their initial fades and put up a siege point with a full team of HA. Umbra and 2-hive skulks owned us. So, in my opinion, if there's an unbalancing element in competative NS, it's the early second hive. 1-hive fades, and 1-hive aliens in general, are just never going to be a serious threat to an adequately prepared marine team. A very-well-prepared-indeed marine team can, however, be smacked down by the two-hive abilities.
Maybe! But all that means is that a vastly better clan would beat us and WOAH HAY THAT'S TOTALLY UNEXPECTED (really). The test of balance would be if, you know, relatively equal teams in terms of DM skill could get the leg up on each other by using better tactics, strategies, whatever.
Wait sorry you're right the fact that TOTALLY AWESOME people can own people that aren't TOTALLY AWESOME means NS is balanced like M J Fox's jenga tower.
<!--QuoteBegin-kavasa+Mar 29 2004, 08:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ Mar 29 2004, 08:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe! But all that means is that a vastly better clan would beat us and WOAH HAY THAT'S TOTALLY UNEXPECTED (really). The test of balance would be if, you know, relatively equal teams in terms of DM skill could get the leg up on each other by using better tactics, strategies, whatever.
Wait sorry you're right the fact that TOTALLY AWESOME people can own people that aren't TOTALLY AWESOME means NS is balanced like M J Fox's jenga tower. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think he means that if two totally "awesome" teams played each other. The fades would still dominate. Not that he believes the team with good fades is in any way more experienced the the other opponent.
the only reason rines dont win in 6v6 is because they cant aim, get 2 equally (super skilled) clans to fight and i would expect the marines to win, if not, be very balanced.
everyone just needs to chill and practace their aim.
lagger - maybe, but why? eR has 2-0ed exigent and exigent has 2-0ed eR, you guys seem to be the top two U.S. clans right now so I'd expect some of his top fades to be on that list. It <i>seems</i> to me that what fades are good at doing is sucking up bullets while the skulks eat the marines/phasegate/TF and the gorges bilebomb stuff, etc etc.
<!--QuoteBegin-Melatonin+Mar 28 2004, 04:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melatonin @ Mar 28 2004, 04:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> well, another 6 v 6 game tonight, and alien dominated as usual.
the way I see things right now, marines have to be tight, fast and flawless to win.
if marines die at all within the first 1 - 3 mins the game is pretty much over, ,as you lose the opertunity (its more of a requirement) to either kill alien RTs or their first hive. past 4 mins depending on how many kills the aliens have managed to get fades and second hives appear and the game gets a hell of a lot harder.
some will say its not too hard for marines to take out alien res if they are *ahem* skilled enough, but to be honest the game is so fast now and so stressfull, you need to kill alien RTs, upgrade, get your own RTs, lock a hive? and all at lightning speed.
I believe 2 equally skilled teams will see aliens win 9 times out of 10. the 1 time they lose will be an early phase/ siege.
Still saying this, I do play on larger pubs every now and then (usually I pub on the TW@ server which never seems to have very large games going on) and yes marines have it much easier.
This is why Savants thread about armour scaling seemed a good idea to me, anyway... rambling now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Just a question, but what clan are you in?
<!--QuoteBegin-Melatonin+Mar 29 2004, 11:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melatonin @ Mar 29 2004, 11:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> TW@... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe a site, country, some other basic stuff like that would help, I still have no clue of the type of competition you play
<!--QuoteBegin-Yumosis+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->CS is 5v5. 6v6 is just the standard used for most games for a very, very long time, I dont see why ns should be so different and making it different from other games could lead to distaste to new players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Why should NS be so different...? Because NS *IS* so different. NS is unlike any half-life mod out there. I think given the originality of NS and the uniqueness of the gameplay, that it deserves to be looked at from its own perspective as DIFFERENT and not just like every other game. It's that uniqueness that has attracted the lion's share of new players.
Ask around. The majority of new players didn't start playing NS because they thought it was a CS, DOD or TFC clone. It was because they thought it was new and different.
Why should we give that up by forcing NS to conform to some outdated clan play modal?
<!--QuoteBegin-othell+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why was 6v6 chosen? It basically comes down to logistics. It is far easier to gather 6 people to play than it is 7 or 8 people. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Please tell me how this has ANYTHING to do with gameplay? No offense, but what you're saying is that NS should be forcibly changed and manipulated to conform to these arbitrary player values because you have problems getting people out to play?
You're kidding right?
If clans have problems getting people out then that is a problem with the clan members and NOT the game. I played in a TFC league for years and know that it can be tough to get enough people to show, but that's life. You can't force the game to change because some people don't show up for games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->7v7 would be a possibility, but even that extra player causes difficulties if NS were to go to the next level. This is an objective of many in the community and my staff and I will continue to do what we can to help NS reach the next level. Increasing team-size would go against that objective. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->What goes against getting NS to the next level is this continual effort to force the game to conform to this outdated modal of clan play. If we want NS to be as good a game as it can be we shouldn't be forcing it to conform to the needs of those who can't bother to show up for their clan games.
The bottom line is that NS just isn't built to be balanced for these really small games. To make the game balanced we have sucked all the fun out of playing aliens. That was done because aliens had to be nerfed repeatedly to make the game balanced for marines, but aliens STILL are too strong in these really small games and if you were to nerf them anymore you would literally destroy the game.
Now the large games (which make up the majority of servers) are also out of whack and people are complaining about balance.
I hate to break it to you, but clans have run out of options. You need to start using some forward thinking and adapt to a situation that isn't going to get any better. The public will leave unless playing aliens is made more fun. (lots of people have already left if you watch the server stats for this year)
It's time for people to stop putting the onus on NS to change because people won't show up for their clan games. If they won't show up for an 8on8, then that isn't NS' problem, it's THEIR problem.
People need to start taking responsibility for their actions for a change.
a little fyi, marines rarely loose, they are the overpowered side in this build. Forlorn was quite correct, when the marines loose it is generally due to poor strategy.
i have found that most clans have trouble with their alien round but breeze through their marine round. (I am asked to ring for clans quite a bit so I have seen this first hand) The marines take a lot less effort to win then the aliens due to their sheer dominance in the battlefield.
But yes you are kind of correct, if the marines allow the second hive their chance to win is greatly reduced.. but then again thats how ns has always been ^_^.
Just keep working at your aim Metalonin, it takes time but eventually falls in place, and have your comm work on response time and thinking of clever ways to win... don't be afraid to try everything, after awhile you'll find strats that work best
My clan generally likes phase gates, and followed by early HMG's, followed by HA or JP... i know it sounds typical, but what you have to work on is execution above all
Risky things like shotgun rush or relocations I'd generally reccommend not doing, but occasionally they will pull out in a win
Also consider the chamber they pick out first -
M chambers, rush MT, ASAP, and then follow up with quick phase gates near their next hive
S chambers, 2 hive lockdown all the way, electricity turrets whatever just hold your ground and tech up for teh win, don't even think about attacking their main hive it IS sucidial to do untill you get HA or JP or something, sensory chambers are absurdly powerful at defending your main hive.
D chambers, get lots of weapon upgrades, it's very important you do not die against this chamber else the fades come sooner, you will want lv. 2 shotty or lv. 1 HMG by the time fades roll around, and go for whatever hive is more vulerable, it will most likely be their second hive they put up
Also always get armor 1 first
Feel free to deviate but after a lot of scrim experience and lots of wins with marine's that is what I've noticed what works best.
Comments
Isnt it harder to coordinate and plan movements for a larger group of people?
And besides, arent we SUPPOSED to be with our teammates in this game?
a. Harder to gather members.
b. Requires larger servers, which requires more money, even more so because NS is a cpu/bandwith hogger
Huh?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Isnt it harder to coordinate and plan movements for a larger group of people?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
And besides, arent we SUPPOSED to be with our teammates in this game?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. You are just supposed to win.
But then I saw it was basically another debate over balancing the game and strategies and all that poo.
And my hopes were so high the marine was bringing Rare back to Nintendo... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
a. Harder to gather members.
b. Requires larger servers, which requires more money, even more so because NS is a cpu/bandwith hogger <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed
Savant: I think your comments are a little generalized. I'm sure if cal implamented rules to run a 7v7/8v8/9v9 etc.. clans would follow. I'm sure if ns was balanced in that way clans would follow. But, right now the clan scene has been set on 6v6 and will stay as such until flay/othell change or tweak something that dictate otherwise.
Opinion: I prefer small games compared to large because of how fast pace the game becomes. As an alien with only 6 players - choices to get a hive or get a fade, put that oc or try for another rsr happen in a more rapid succession which I prefer. Having less players also does put more responsibility on the individual as they make up a larger part of the team *Good for clan match's imo*.
I wouldnt go as far to say that larger games have more teamwork then smaller ones though. Smaller games have less people to group and coordinate true enough, but its harder to decide were to put each one across the map because you just dont have the man power to cover everything that is needed. Thats why clans must come up with mine/turret/elect tf/alien ambush's/parasite nets etc... to compensate. In larger games its possible to cover base in each location and keep a good sense of were the enemy movements are, but its harder to coordinate your team in response. Teamwork is obvious in both games types just in different aspects of how you look at it.
I still hold that combat is highly unbalanced in alien favor, but classic really wasn't changed too too much, and seems to be mostly holding the balance of 2.01.
the way I see things right now, marines have to be tight, fast and flawless to win.
if marines die at all within the first 1 - 3 mins the game is pretty much over, ,as you lose the opertunity (its more of a requirement) to either kill alien RTs or their first hive.
past 4 mins depending on how many kills the aliens have managed to get fades and second hives appear and the game gets a hell of a lot harder.
some will say its not too hard for marines to take out alien res if they are *ahem* skilled enough, but to be honest the game is so fast now and so stressfull, you need to kill alien RTs, upgrade, get your own RTs, lock a hive? and all at lightning speed.
I believe 2 equally skilled teams will see aliens win 9 times out of 10.
the 1 time they lose will be an early phase/ siege.
Still saying this, I do play on larger pubs every now and then (usually I pub on the TW@ server which never seems to have very large games going on)
and yes marines have it much easier.
This is why Savants thread about armour scaling seemed a good idea to me, anyway... rambling now.
the 1 time they lose will be an early phase/ siege.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny that scrims/matches were a tie was the final result had about as many marine ties than alien. I'll agree though that it's easier to win aliens when the marines can't aim =D
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is why Savants thread about armour scaling seemed a good idea to me, anyway... rambling now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Savant's been banished to the public beta forum.
Clans need to adapt to the game and make their own tournament rules instead of trying to balance the entire mod to suit their own personal agendas.
Why not try a clan game at 8v8 and see if the balance changes at all. I'd love to see clans take the inititive for a change instead of just griping about how the game isn't balanced.
I know that aliens are favoured in small games just as marines are favoured in large games. So why don't the clans increase the gamesize a couple players and see how that works out?
Overall the clans need to realise that Flayra may likely reach a point when he says "Screw it. NS is balanced close enough, deal with it until the next version." The fact that people have an input into a game is a priviledge, don't expect the developer to change the game just to suit every niche issue that comes along.
In TFC clans made 'mini-rules' to make clan play enjoyable without needing any change to the game. (EG, no yard d, no bunny-hopping, no OvO attacks etc) If they can do it in TFC, I'm sure they can do it here.
Didn't I see someone's sig here saying that 'Veterans adapt'...? By the way some people complain you could of fooled me.
Regards,
Savant
a discussion about how many player it takes to change a lighting bulb?
STATSWAR?
this wouldn't lead to anything.
I, to take the word, think, that the only thing marines win so often in public is, that there are to many reshogs, going early fade, dieing and beeing a big loose for the team - you know, instead of fade, they could go gorge... build up 2nd hive... improving the whole team... but no, they are for the stats. IMHO the main problem about balance is the income of both teams, not cost of upgrades nor evolutions (not to forget: reshogs. but as some mod (max?) said: "we can only balance the game, not the players").
it's just that, since the resflow doesn't increase (at least not heavily) while there are more players, it slows down the whole process.
like a colony of bacteria in an experimental alignment (like in a hospital, in those glasses with the yellow-brownish noutris... (i hate it when i cant spell it) -stuff) which grew to fast and now has no food anymore. is growing more and more slowly, until it dies.
I think, the ressource income should change with the playercount.
If someone says something against it, he can play it still "oldschool" - but something has to be done about that important issue.
I have to agree that I don't play in a clan and only on pubs, but I can imagine their problems with leage play & co.
And I noticed a significant income drop as i played 1on1 for fun, capped my rt, more and more players joining, suddenly we as kharaa had only 1 res per tick... this is horrible. Especialy with deaf players which play for themselfs.
Cara fades are fine, it's really BLINK that I have a problem with. When you have the equivalent of a HA in terms of life/armor that can move close in on the marines thanks to BLINK(marines lose their advantages of being ranged attackers), has a high damage attack that can kill marines in 3 hits (by the time the first fades arrive, there is no way the comm has dropped HA), and can run away with equal ease, all for 50 res...then you have a problem. And this is all at hive one.
If you drop 5 shotties, you'll have to make sure all 5 of your marines are always together. And if they get parasited, then the fade can just blink across the map attacking the RTs that aren't defended. If the marines split up, then they die horribly.
I propose that we either make blink a 2-hive ability, swapping it with metaboloize, or we replace it with the old 1.04 version of blink, which is perfectly fine I feel. With the old blink you can still get to places quickly, but you don't have nearly as much control, so marines still have a chance to shoot you. If blink is swapped with metabolize, then the marines will have a few more minutes of being able to keep their RTs,a nd they don't have to dominate during early game. I don't want NS games to be determined within the first few minutes of play. That is just...boring. The real fights should be during mid game.
I think 6v6 happened because a lot of teams (1.04) had barely enough guys on to scrim. 6v6 is better htan no scrim I suppose.
Clans need to adapt to the game and make their own tournament rules instead of trying to balance the entire mod to suit their own personal agendas.
Why not try a clan game at 8v8 and see if the balance changes at all. I'd love to see clans take the inititive for a change instead of just griping about how the game isn't balanced.
I know that aliens are favoured in small games just as marines are favoured in large games. So why don't the clans increase the gamesize a couple players and see how that works out?
Overall the clans need to realise that Flayra may likely reach a point when he says "Screw it. NS is balanced close enough, deal with it until the next version." The fact that people have an input into a game is a priviledge, don't expect the developer to change the game just to suit every niche issue that comes along.
In TFC clans made 'mini-rules' to make clan play enjoyable without needing any change to the game. (EG, no yard d, no bunny-hopping, no OvO attacks etc) If they can do it in TFC, I'm sure they can do it here.
Didn't I see someone's sig here saying that 'Veterans adapt'...? By the way some people complain you could of fooled me.
Regards,
Savant<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CS is 5v5. 6v6 is just the standard used for most games for a very, very long time, I dont see why ns should be so different and making it different from other games could lead to distaste to new players.
Why was 6v6 chosen? It basically comes down to logistics. It is far easier to gather 6 people to play than it is 7 or 8 people. This is even more true if NS were to really move LAN competitions. I have personally experienced planning a LAN tournament for the CPL with team sizes of 8 players ( TFC ). It is an experience that you do not want to go through.
Also, TFC is a totally different animal when it comes to team sizes. TFC matches fluctuate from 8 - 10 players depending on the map. Most matches are 9v9, but for a lot of clans getting 9 or 10 players is a challenge every week. TFC has maturity on its side. You cannot say that if TFC can manage 8 players for matches then NS can also. NS does not have the maturity that TFC does. NS would not be able to grow effectively if team sizes were to increase.
7v7 would be a possibility, but even that extra player causes difficulties if NS were to go to the next level. This is an objective of many in the community and my staff and I will continue to do what we can to help NS reach the next level. Increasing team-size would go against that objective.
Also, <i>if</i> 6v6 play is unbalanced, I don't think it's due to fades. I commanded a scrim vs. Ins the other day - they went for three fades, and within around 150 seconds, all three fades were dead. But the second hive finished building before we got a really solid foothold in satcom, and my siege point was overwhelmed by 4 or 5 leaping skulks, spawning and movementing in constantly. In another scrim vs. the newly-formed cx-net, we had them locked into subsector for most of the game, and killed one or both of their initial fades and put up a siege point with a full team of HA. Umbra and 2-hive skulks owned us. So, in my opinion, if there's an unbalancing element in competative NS, it's the early second hive. 1-hive fades, and 1-hive aliens in general, are just never going to be a serious threat to an adequately prepared marine team. A very-well-prepared-indeed marine team can, however, be smacked down by the two-hive abilities.
Wait sorry you're right the fact that TOTALLY AWESOME people can own people that aren't TOTALLY AWESOME means NS is balanced like M J Fox's jenga tower.
Wait sorry you're right the fact that TOTALLY AWESOME people can own people that aren't TOTALLY AWESOME means NS is balanced like M J Fox's jenga tower. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he means that if two totally "awesome" teams played each other. The fades would still dominate. Not that he believes the team with good fades is in any way more experienced the the other opponent.
everyone just needs to chill and practace their aim.
the way I see things right now, marines have to be tight, fast and flawless to win.
if marines die at all within the first 1 - 3 mins the game is pretty much over, ,as you lose the opertunity (its more of a requirement) to either kill alien RTs or their first hive.
past 4 mins depending on how many kills the aliens have managed to get fades and second hives appear and the game gets a hell of a lot harder.
some will say its not too hard for marines to take out alien res if they are *ahem* skilled enough, but to be honest the game is so fast now and so stressfull, you need to kill alien RTs, upgrade, get your own RTs, lock a hive? and all at lightning speed.
I believe 2 equally skilled teams will see aliens win 9 times out of 10.
the 1 time they lose will be an early phase/ siege.
Still saying this, I do play on larger pubs every now and then (usually I pub on the TW@ server which never seems to have very large games going on)
and yes marines have it much easier.
This is why Savants thread about armour scaling seemed a good idea to me, anyway... rambling now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just a question, but what clan are you in?
Maybe a site, country, some other basic stuff like that would help, I still have no clue of the type of competition you play
Ask around. The majority of new players didn't start playing NS because they thought it was a CS, DOD or TFC clone. It was because they thought it was new and different.
Why should we give that up by forcing NS to conform to some outdated clan play modal?
<!--QuoteBegin-othell+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why was 6v6 chosen? It basically comes down to logistics. It is far easier to gather 6 people to play than it is 7 or 8 people. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Please tell me how this has ANYTHING to do with gameplay? No offense, but what you're saying is that NS should be forcibly changed and manipulated to conform to these arbitrary player values because you have problems getting people out to play?
You're kidding right?
If clans have problems getting people out then that is a problem with the clan members and NOT the game. I played in a TFC league for years and know that it can be tough to get enough people to show, but that's life. You can't force the game to change because some people don't show up for games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->7v7 would be a possibility, but even that extra player causes difficulties if NS were to go to the next level. This is an objective of many in the community and my staff and I will continue to do what we can to help NS reach the next level. Increasing team-size would go against that objective. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->What goes against getting NS to the next level is this continual effort to force the game to conform to this outdated modal of clan play. If we want NS to be as good a game as it can be we shouldn't be forcing it to conform to the needs of those who can't bother to show up for their clan games.
The bottom line is that NS just isn't built to be balanced for these really small games. To make the game balanced we have sucked all the fun out of playing aliens. That was done because aliens had to be nerfed repeatedly to make the game balanced for marines, but aliens STILL are too strong in these really small games and if you were to nerf them anymore you would literally destroy the game.
Now the large games (which make up the majority of servers) are also out of whack and people are complaining about balance.
I hate to break it to you, but clans have run out of options. You need to start using some forward thinking and adapt to a situation that isn't going to get any better. The public will leave unless playing aliens is made more fun. (lots of people have already left if you watch the server stats for this year)
It's time for people to stop putting the onus on NS to change because people won't show up for their clan games. If they won't show up for an 8on8, then that isn't NS' problem, it's THEIR problem.
People need to start taking responsibility for their actions for a change.
Regards,
Savant
i have found that most clans have trouble with their alien round but breeze through their marine round. (I am asked to ring for clans quite a bit so I have seen this first hand) The marines take a lot less effort to win then the aliens due to their sheer dominance in the battlefield.
But yes you are kind of correct, if the marines allow the second hive their chance to win is greatly reduced.. but then again thats how ns has always been ^_^.
UK clan.. uknsl, changing soon i think?
Just keep working at your aim Metalonin, it takes time but eventually falls in place, and have your comm work on response time and thinking of clever ways to win... don't be afraid to try everything, after awhile you'll find strats that work best
My clan generally likes phase gates, and followed by early HMG's, followed by HA or JP... i know it sounds typical, but what you have to work on is execution above all
Risky things like shotgun rush or relocations I'd generally reccommend not doing, but occasionally they will pull out in a win
Also consider the chamber they pick out first -
M chambers, rush MT, ASAP, and then follow up with quick phase gates near their next hive
S chambers, 2 hive lockdown all the way, electricity turrets whatever just hold your ground and tech up for teh win, don't even think about attacking their main hive it IS sucidial to do untill you get HA or JP or something, sensory chambers are absurdly powerful at defending your main hive.
D chambers, get lots of weapon upgrades, it's very important you do not die against this chamber else the fades come sooner, you will want lv. 2 shotty or lv. 1 HMG by the time fades roll around, and go for whatever hive is more vulerable, it will most likely be their second hive they put up
Also always get armor 1 first
Feel free to deviate but after a lot of scrim experience and lots of wins with marine's that is what I've noticed what works best.
Kudos and good luck to you in merry old england