<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Their rate was fine both at 20000, BUT they both had a cl_updaterate of 15. Below the default 20 and way below the minupdaterate of the server 40. I proceeded to ask them to change their cl_updaterate to 40. After which they no longer had the teleporting problem. Highly reproducable!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some people are really evil and use a very low rate to the server(cl_rate) to create the effect of teleporting around so that it's harder to hit them, while they are using a proper rate setting which allows them to see other players as non-laging. Can cl_rate be forced to a min setting so that this exploit cannot be abused?(yes I would go that far as to call it an exploit because it can be really nasty)
Cl_rate is already locked actually. Try changing it to anything, leave console, come back. It'll be back at 9999. It's done much in the same manner that ex_interp is locked.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sarisel+Jun 13 2004, 05:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sarisel @ Jun 13 2004, 05:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you read in the initial post, netcode settings had no effect on the player specific bugged hitbox effect. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, true but it could be responsible for some of the problems, PSHB may not happen as commonly as we think.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This wouldnt explain why cri.meking was bugged since Im pretty sure he doesnt have a fubare'd netcode. This might be one cause, but I really think that the "invisible barrier" makes a big difference too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not judging him, but i know some people will drop their cl_updaterate so low that it will make them lag. Also it doesnt effect client side performance.
*EDIT*
Another instance of what I thought to be a PSHB bug. Showed all signs of your prerequisites and what happend is that the player mixed up his rate command with his cl_updatrate. IE he had his updaterate at 20000.
<!--QuoteBegin-Emanon+Jun 13 2004, 08:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Emanon @ Jun 13 2004, 08:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just would like to report something:
Since the other day I was able to fix the ex_interp to .05 I started noticing alot of public players with teleporting models, the regulars who visit our forums have had instructions on how to optimize the netcode so they were just fine. (no teleporting) So I went through some of the causes. Changed ex_interp to .1 (default) and it removed the teleporting but then I had the problem of laggy hitboxes. So I went back to .05. Then I checked the servers sv_minupdaterate and maxupdaterate, both set to 40. Finally I asked the two players what their settings were. Their rate was fine both at 20000, BUT they both had a cl_updaterate of 15. Below the default 20 and way below the minupdaterate of the server 40. I proceeded to ask them to change their cl_updaterate to 40. After which they no longer had the teleporting problem. Highly reproducable!
My thoughts:
Maybe this PSHB bug is just a combination of players with low cl_updaterate which is being hidden by the high ex_interp.
Not sure but its just something I noticed.
Emanon <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong. The server will enforce his min *rates, meaning you can enter whatever you want, the server will use "his" values if yours are lower than his min or higher than the max *rates. maxrates are bs though if set wrong, there's one (german) server that has his maxupdaterates set to 35 ...
<!--QuoteBegin-gopher+Jun 15 2004, 01:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (gopher @ Jun 15 2004, 01:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wrong. The server will enforce his min *rates, meaning you can enter whatever you want, the server will use "his" values if yours are lower than his min or higher than the max *rates. maxrates are bs though if set wrong, there's one (german) server that has his maxupdaterates set to 35 ... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please dont be so negative and assured that your correct.
Trying to report things I have noticed as an experienced player and a server admin, your probably one of those people that blame PSHB on a players aim IMOA.
Sorry cant understand your post. What I can tell you is that sv_minupdaterate is broken, not sure about maxupdaterate but you can probably put it in the same catagory. IE it doesnt enforce rates. To fix this problem we have gone with a rate manager to force players to use cl_updaterates that we specify.
Reproducablitity: Set the server sv_minupdatrate to 20 or 40 and set your clientside cl_updaterate to 5 and everyone else will see you teleporting all over the place. While you see no difference in gameplay.
Solutions in testing: With the ratemanager regulating players network settings, a ping booster running at about an average of 85fps and with the ex_interp fix. I have yet to see this bug, although I am in the early stages of testing. I will report back in a few days if I see this PSHB problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cl_rate is already locked actually. Try changing it to anything, leave console, come back. It'll be back at 9999. It's done much in the same manner that ex_interp is locked.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh... could this work other way too...? Get players insta-gibbed? I could swear that every once in a while I get shot from full HP to ---4000 with one bullet... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Ari+Jun 15 2004, 03:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ari @ Jun 15 2004, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm moving this to Discussion, as it's more appropriate there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I would have to disagree, this is a legit bug and we are getting close to the answer.
<!--QuoteBegin-OrangeSlice+Jun 14 2004, 08:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OrangeSlice @ Jun 14 2004, 08:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> well, it appears the steam bug with players/hitboxes not working correctly has been fixed in a patch today
however, this patch is for counterstrike/condition zero so I dont know if it will effect NS in any way. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think it will... there was a bug in CS where a player could turn but his model wouldn't move at all (but his hitbox would). So he could be shooting at you from his side, and his hitbox would be as if he turned to face you... so you could shoot him through the head you see (where he is looking away from you) and your bullets would go right through him. I hope that makes sense <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But those fixes appear to be aimed very broadly... just by the wording, I'm given the impression that it might be an HL engine tweak rather then a mod patchup.
We won't know until we keep seeing this bug happening.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sarisel+May 10 2004, 12:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sarisel @ May 10 2004, 12:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For the person who has this bug, it will feel as though he's having a good day. Most attacks don't hit him and thus he manages to get away with doing things he'd usually die from. Would he consider whether he is bugged or not? Probably not. Who thinks about such a thing when doing very well? It is much easier to just take credit for 'playing well' or assume that you're just lucky. In a public game, this may be an annoyance for everybody else. One person has an unfair advantage, almost equivalent to turning on godmode whenever moving. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Very good approach Sarisel. I only mean to tackle a tangent, as usual. For me, personally, it is pretty much impossible to lie to myself. This brings me no end of impatience when dealing with other people's egoism. On the other hand, I myself am narcissistic, tho truthful, and I can act, being in touch with the truth, whereas other people cannot.
Anyways, yeah. Carry on <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> It just my pet peeve
<!--QuoteBegin-Wirhe+Jun 15 2004, 05:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wirhe @ Jun 15 2004, 05:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Uh... could this work other way too...? Get players insta-gibbed? I could swear that every once in a while I get shot from full HP to ---4000 with one bullet... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There's another thread about that already, check the beta bug forum (=
Would it be possible to make a special map with constant (low) damage lines (lazer type things) and run an onos around inside to see where the onos is actually being hit? Just restart the server until you get a bugged hitbox.
Of course, the problem is that I don't know if server-side map damage has the same bug as players shooting.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
edited June 2004
PSHB occurs upon connecting to a server. Last time I played NS (end of May/start of June), I had bypassed the lock on ex_interp (credit to Kisan for figuring out how to bypass it) and played games in which my hits registered much better. However, I still saw the glitch as described in the first page of this thread. While paying a visit to these forums, I got a message from Emanon about how tweaking server settings seemed to eliminate the occurance of the glitch. Since the glitch starts with the client-server connection and since client-side settings don't seem to affect the occurance of the bug, server settings may well be the cause of the problem. I'd like to encourage server owners to exchange information with each other about the settings that they use. Supposedly, the server that Emanon admins hasn't seen this bug in a while, so players and admins might want to check it out and see if this is true.
Since I'm not around much anymore (real life is my first priority), my last request is that you do not forget about this issue. Its documentation here and its pursuit took a considerable amount of time and effort. Even if I do not return to the NS community in the future, I wish that the Player-Specific Bugged Hitboxes problem gets resolved. It has been the silent disease of NS since beta 2.1 and 3.0. The cure may not be as far off as previously expected. Just don't let this information slip away. Remember this and tell others, because none of the NS forum admins will do anything to help you do so. First this thread was unstickied, then it was burried here in General Discussion. Don't expect a sticky even though this is good information.
We have nailed one particular and 100% reproduceable cause of this bug. It is logged in the bugtracker privately because it can be employed intentionally by a knowledgeable person. I intend to see if this same effect works in other steam mods.
Fixing this one case may not end ALL of the "lagging hitbox" problems, but let me just say for once I can assure you all that we aren't on crack. There IS a player-specific issue which pops up under very very specific circumstances and causes the player to be extremely hard to hit.
Thanks to the community for helping us research this bug.
Note: If you happen to know which cause i am referring to, PLEASE do not post it anywhere.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
Today I was privileged to participate in some official testing of this now reproduceable effect with grep, tyr, and keis. It is real and I'm quite confident that the process of pshb has now been identified and isolated. Best of all, it is <b>reproduceable</b>. The bug that has frustrated so many people (including me) can now be recreated. It was a great feeling to finally confront the monster that has ruined so many of my NS game hours in the past. Almost like in a conclusion from a detective documentary, all the pieces of evidence collected finally resulted in the apprehension of the murderer.
A big thanks to [C.A.P]Alpha for reading this topic a few weeks ago, spreading the word, and actually taking a proactive approach to tracking the bug down. This is exactly what I had hoped would happen. Also, congratulations to the [C.A.P.] server admin who managed to use his HL server knowledge to identify exactly what was going on. You have done an incredible service to the development of NS.
Now that the existence of this bug has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, my job is done. I have documented this bug as best as I could since the closed beta-testing period of NS3.0. Now, several months later, the breakthrough has finally come.
For those of you who do not know how the bug works, you can find comfort in knowing that even if the bug cannot be corrected via coding, a way of bypassing it has already been devised by the duo from [C.A.P.] before a bug report was even submitted.
As a final note, to all of you who completely wrote the entire issue off as netcode, bad aim, etc. and especially to all of those players (especially my fellow vets - in particular, one specific person who was very vocal in #cri's channel after a scrim) that have ridiculed and laughed at the claims of PSHB:
<u><span style='color:red'><b>I told you so.</b></span></u>
CAL should be informed of the process of reproducing this effect, since it is exploitable and it is quite possible that certain players have been intentionally using this bug in matches.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Jul 1 2004, 01:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Jul 1 2004, 01:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And this person is not a PT.
<!--QuoteBegin-TyrNemesis^+Jun 27 2004, 09:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TyrNemesis^ @ Jun 27 2004, 09:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We have nailed one particular and 100% reproduceable cause of this bug. It is logged in the bugtracker privately because it can be employed intentionally by a knowledgeable person. I intend to see if this same effect works in other steam mods.
Fixing this one case may not end ALL of the "lagging hitbox" problems, but let me just say for once I can assure you all that we aren't on crack. There IS a player-specific issue which pops up under very very specific circumstances and causes the player to be extremely hard to hit.
Thanks to the community for helping us research this bug.
Note: If you happen to know which cause i am referring to, PLEASE do not post it anywhere. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you.
Comments
Some people are really evil and use a very low rate to the server(cl_rate) to create the effect of teleporting around so that it's harder to hit them, while they are using a proper rate setting which allows them to see other players as non-laging. Can cl_rate be forced to a min setting so that this exploit cannot be abused?(yes I would go that far as to call it an exploit because it can be really nasty)
Yes, true but it could be responsible for some of the problems, PSHB may not happen as commonly as we think.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
This wouldnt explain why cri.meking was bugged since Im pretty sure he doesnt have a fubare'd netcode.
This might be one cause, but I really think that the "invisible barrier" makes a big difference too.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not judging him, but i know some people will drop their cl_updaterate so low that it will make them lag. Also it doesnt effect client side performance.
*EDIT*
Another instance of what I thought to be a PSHB bug. Showed all signs of your prerequisites and what happend is that the player mixed up his rate command with his cl_updatrate. IE he had his updaterate at 20000.
<!--QuoteBegin-steam patch changelog+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (steam patch changelog)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
+Improved player turning right hitbox behavior
+Improved hitbox behavior
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
however, this patch is for counterstrike/condition zero so I dont know if it will effect NS in any way.
Since the other day I was able to fix the ex_interp to .05 I started noticing alot of public players with teleporting models, the regulars who visit our forums have had instructions on how to optimize the netcode so they were just fine. (no teleporting) So I went through some of the causes. Changed ex_interp to .1 (default) and it removed the teleporting but then I had the problem of laggy hitboxes. So I went back to .05. Then I checked the servers sv_minupdaterate and maxupdaterate, both set to 40. Finally I asked the two players what their settings were. Their rate was fine both at 20000, BUT they both had a cl_updaterate of 15. Below the default 20 and way below the minupdaterate of the server 40. I proceeded to ask them to change their cl_updaterate to 40. After which they no longer had the teleporting problem. Highly reproducable!
My thoughts:
Maybe this PSHB bug is just a combination of players with low cl_updaterate which is being hidden by the high ex_interp.
Not sure but its just something I noticed.
Emanon <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. The server will enforce his min *rates, meaning you can enter whatever you want, the server will use "his" values if yours are lower than his min or higher than the max *rates. maxrates are bs though if set wrong, there's one (german) server that has his maxupdaterates set to 35 ...
Please dont be so negative and assured that your correct.
Trying to report things I have noticed as an experienced player and a server admin, your probably one of those people that blame PSHB on a players aim IMOA.
Sorry cant understand your post. What I can tell you is that sv_minupdaterate is broken, not sure about maxupdaterate but you can probably put it in the same catagory. IE it doesnt enforce rates. To fix this problem we have gone with a rate manager to force players to use cl_updaterates that we specify.
Reproducablitity:
Set the server sv_minupdatrate to 20 or 40 and set your clientside cl_updaterate to 5 and everyone else will see you teleporting all over the place. While you see no difference in gameplay.
Solutions in testing:
With the ratemanager regulating players network settings, a ping booster running at about an average of 85fps and with the ex_interp fix. I have yet to see this bug, although I am in the early stages of testing. I will report back in a few days if I see this PSHB problem.
*edit* spelling.
What if you set it and then alias it out?
I would have to disagree, this is a legit bug and we are getting close to the answer.
<!--QuoteBegin-steam patch changelog+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (steam patch changelog)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
+Improved player turning right hitbox behavior
+Improved hitbox behavior
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
however, this patch is for counterstrike/condition zero so I dont know if it will effect NS in any way. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it will... there was a bug in CS where a player could turn but his model wouldn't move at all (but his hitbox would). So he could be shooting at you from his side, and his hitbox would be as if he turned to face you... so you could shoot him through the head you see (where he is looking away from you) and your bullets would go right through him. I hope that makes sense <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
We won't know until we keep seeing this bug happening.
Very good approach Sarisel. I only mean to tackle a tangent, as usual. For me, personally, it is pretty much impossible to lie to myself. This brings me no end of impatience when dealing with other people's egoism. On the other hand, I myself am narcissistic, tho truthful, and I can act, being in touch with the truth, whereas other people cannot.
Anyways, yeah. Carry on <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> It just my pet peeve
the more people read this the better.
There's another thread about that already, check the beta bug forum (=
Of course, the problem is that I don't know if server-side map damage has the same bug as players shooting.
Since I'm not around much anymore (real life is my first priority), my last request is that you do not forget about this issue. Its documentation here and its pursuit took a considerable amount of time and effort. Even if I do not return to the NS community in the future, I wish that the Player-Specific Bugged Hitboxes problem gets resolved. It has been the silent disease of NS since beta 2.1 and 3.0. The cure may not be as far off as previously expected. Just don't let this information slip away. Remember this and tell others, because none of the NS forum admins will do anything to help you do so. First this thread was unstickied, then it was burried here in General Discussion. Don't expect a sticky even though this is good information.
Edit: forgot to pimp the server
TacticalGamer.com NS [UNCHAINED|FF ON|CD PREFERRED|SPEEX]|53ms|209.19.57.56:27015]
Fixing this one case may not end ALL of the "lagging hitbox" problems, but let me just say for once I can assure you all that we aren't on crack. There IS a player-specific issue which pops up under very very specific circumstances and causes the player to be extremely hard to hit.
Thanks to the community for helping us research this bug.
Note: If you happen to know which cause i am referring to, PLEASE do not post it anywhere.
A big thanks to [C.A.P]Alpha for reading this topic a few weeks ago, spreading the word, and actually taking a proactive approach to tracking the bug down. This is exactly what I had hoped would happen. Also, congratulations to the [C.A.P.] server admin who managed to use his HL server knowledge to identify exactly what was going on. You have done an incredible service to the development of NS.
Now that the existence of this bug has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, my job is done. I have documented this bug as best as I could since the closed beta-testing period of NS3.0. Now, several months later, the breakthrough has finally come.
For those of you who do not know how the bug works, you can find comfort in knowing that even if the bug cannot be corrected via coding, a way of bypassing it has already been devised by the duo from [C.A.P.] before a bug report was even submitted.
As a final note, to all of you who completely wrote the entire issue off as netcode, bad aim, etc. and especially to all of those players (especially my fellow vets - in particular, one specific person who was very vocal in #cri's channel after a scrim) that have ridiculed and laughed at the claims of PSHB:
<u><span style='color:red'><b>I told you so.</b></span></u>
CAL should be informed of the process of reproducing this effect, since it is exploitable and it is quite possible that certain players have been intentionally using this bug in matches.
Talk about injustice.
Talk about injustice. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> gj saraph
why are you not a pt, dev, or exterminator? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
cuz hes too productive on trying to fix ns? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i do agree with pshb :X
^^^
Fixing this one case may not end ALL of the "lagging hitbox" problems, but let me just say for once I can assure you all that we aren't on crack. There IS a player-specific issue which pops up under very very specific circumstances and causes the player to be extremely hard to hit.
Thanks to the community for helping us research this bug.
Note: If you happen to know which cause i am referring to, PLEASE do not post it anywhere. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you.