More information than anyone could possibly want on Half-Life 2's lighting! It's definitely impressive, but it works in a significantly different way to, say, Doom 3 et al. One end result is that it's not nearly as visible in screenshots - you'll really have to see it in action.
Is it just me who finds a lot of these new technologies are really over-used? If used in a fairly subtle manner, they can significantly add to the realism, but overused it just looks plain ugly. Instead of being 'here are some cool designs, using new tech to make them look even better' it's 'OGM!!!1 TEH NORMLA MAPPIGN!!!11!!1one'
Personally I don't think there is a need for the levels of detail in the models and walls. I would rather play a game that looks average with great gameplay over a game that is average with great looks. eg half-life/some game you really like vs far cry.
Are you ever going to be that close to notice the detail on the models? Last I heard this was the blast the enemy from across the room century, not the hug him to death one. All this mirror and shadow stuff is nice and can add a whole lot of new oppertunities, but I really hope the developers do not use the technologies just for the sake of using them and ruin the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-version91x+May 15 2004, 11:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (version91x @ May 15 2004, 11:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Personally I don't think there is a need for the levels of detail in the models and walls. I would rather play a game that looks average with great gameplay over a game that is average with great looks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why not have both ?
Thats what they are trying to do. (and making the best engine <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
I think they've reached a level where enough is enough. I don't -want- to kill somebody/something in the most realistic way possible, because I don't really want to kill another person, I want to kill something I know is a computer simulation... I dunno, maybe I'm just a wuss <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> but I really don't like the idea of not being able to distinguish between murder and a game...
Honestly, shooting people that "look real" shouldn't scare anyone, if they have a conscience. I mean, if a person is the kind of brainless maniac that does not distinguish between what is right and what isn't, and trust me; I have known many, then they need intensive therapy and better parents, the game should not be blamed.
Trust <i>yourself</i> more, and believe in your own ethics; that is the key to <b>Faith</b>.
(Ethics transcend religion in my opinion, so when I say Faith, I'm not refering to any religion. Morality is something everyone must have, with or without a religion.)
So if you fear shooting a video game simulcra because it looks human, you should applaud your own good nature and remind yourself who you are and that you would never do so in real life. Then you can continue your game, confident in the knowledge that you can trust yourself.
<!--QuoteBegin-WoW_Nirss+May 15 2004, 04:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WoW_Nirss @ May 15 2004, 04:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-version91x+May 15 2004, 11:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (version91x @ May 15 2004, 11:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Personally I don't think there is a need for the levels of detail in the models and walls. I would rather play a game that looks average with great gameplay over a game that is average with great looks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why not have both ?
Thats what they are trying to do. (and making the best engine <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because that would cost us more. new features = new technology = pay up. not really needed new features therefore = waste of money.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Bo Selecta+May 15 2004, 10:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bo Selecta @ May 15 2004, 10:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think they've reached a level where enough is enough. I don't -want- to kill somebody/something in the most realistic way possible, because I don't really want to kill another person, I want to kill something I know is a computer simulation... I dunno, maybe I'm just a wuss <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> but I really don't like the idea of not being able to distinguish between murder and a game... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, it's not like you feel, which reminds me there should develop some electrodes that is attached to your brain so you can feel what the characters is feeling. (hey, this could be a potentially cure for pedophilia)
<!--QuoteBegin-WoW_Nirss+May 15 2004, 04:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WoW_Nirss @ May 15 2004, 04:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why not have both ?
Thats what they are trying to do. (and making the best engine <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Didn't Epic try to do that with Unreal 2? Not exactly the best outcome, but I'm being pessimistic now.
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--QuoteBegin-version91x+May 15 2004, 09:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (version91x @ May 15 2004, 09:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Personally I don't think there is a need for the levels of detail in the models and walls. I would rather play a game that looks average with great gameplay over a game that is average with great looks. eg half-life/some game you really like vs far cry. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not really an issue here; what they are creating is an engine. They don't have to worry about good gameplay because all they are doing is creating a platform for other people (or themselves) to build upon to create a great game.
I don't see what's wrong with having both. You don't need to worry about them wasting gameplay development time on engine frippery if they're just working on the engine and leaving the gameplay to later or to other development studios with their own ideas.
On a similar note, if you're annoyed that there "isn't a game here yet", I haven't seen much out of HL2 except good physics and engine, and not much of us have seen much Doom 3 gameplay. But who knows. An engine is a base for something greater, so hopefully whatever they do on the UE3 engine, let's hope that it rocks, and it has something to do with the characters in the demo, because they have cool design. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Surge+May 16 2004, 10:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Surge @ May 16 2004, 10:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sweet mother, KFS, you explained it pretty well.
On a similar note, if you're annoyed that there "isn't a game here yet", I haven't seen much out of HL2 except good physics and engine, and not much of us have seen much Doom 3 gameplay. But who knows. An engine is a base for something greater, so hopefully whatever they do on the UE3 engine, let's hope that it rocks, and it has something to do with the characters in the demo, because they have cool design. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> HALO 2's had a gameplay demo since like froEVAR. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
dude, bump maps are greyscale and the grey amount corresponds to height. normal maps are color and the red green blue channels correspond to xyz directions for the normal vectors and they can be tangent space or object space. tangent space means the values are relative to the surface after surface smoothing and object space means it's relative to the mesh's orientation matrix. tangent space is needed for organic like models where the triangles morph and object space is good for vehicles or robot parts that just rotate and don't bend or morph or whatever. bump maps get converted to something similar to normal maps in memory. it's just that normals maps are usually generated from geometry while bump maps are generated from bitmaps.
Doom3 pisses me off because it is missing gloss maps which means that the lighting effects have to be faked like before which kind of defeats the purpose of having normal maps and bump maps. if your gonna have bump maps and normal maps that means you want the computer to calculate the light shading rather than the artist painting the light in to fake it and if you are gonna have the computer calculating all the lighting effects then you are gonna need diffuse, specular, and gloss maps as well to help it to do its job exactly the way you want. so i don't know that they were thinking with that.
i don't know what Half-life 2 or FarCry is missing, however sometimes when i look at screenshots of Half-life 2 i seriously doubt whether they actually use normal maps at all.
pliz make natural selection for unreal engine 3 kthxbai. oh wait. unreal games don't have lag compensation; they have a delay when firing instead. ok screw that then
Comments
<a href='http://www.ati.com/developer/gdc/D3DTutorial10_Half-Life2_Shading.pdf' target='_blank'>http://www.ati.com/developer/gdc/D3DTutori...fe2_Shading.pdf</a>
More information than anyone could possibly want on Half-Life 2's lighting! It's definitely impressive, but it works in a significantly different way to, say, Doom 3 et al. One end result is that it's not nearly as visible in screenshots - you'll really have to see it in action.
Is it just me who finds a lot of these new technologies are really over-used? If used in a fairly subtle manner, they can significantly add to the realism, but overused it just looks plain ugly. Instead of being 'here are some cool designs, using new tech to make them look even better' it's 'OGM!!!1 TEH NORMLA MAPPIGN!!!11!!1one'
Are you ever going to be that close to notice the detail on the models? Last I heard this was the blast the enemy from across the room century, not the hug him to death one. All this mirror and shadow stuff is nice and can add a whole lot of new oppertunities, but I really hope the developers do not use the technologies just for the sake of using them and ruin the game.
Why not have both ?
Thats what they are trying to do. (and making the best engine <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Trust <i>yourself</i> more, and believe in your own ethics; that is the key to <b>Faith</b>.
(Ethics transcend religion in my opinion, so when I say Faith, I'm not refering to any religion. Morality is something everyone must have, with or without a religion.)
So if you fear shooting a video game simulcra because it looks human, you should applaud your own good nature and remind yourself who you are and that you would never do so in real life. Then you can continue your game, confident in the knowledge that you can trust yourself.
Why not have both ?
Thats what they are trying to do. (and making the best engine <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because that would cost us more.
new features = new technology = pay up.
not really needed new features therefore = waste of money.
Well, it's not like you feel, which reminds me there should develop some electrodes that is attached to your brain so you can feel what the characters is feeling. (hey, this could be a potentially cure for pedophilia)
Thats what they are trying to do. (and making the best engine <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't Epic try to do that with Unreal 2? Not exactly the best outcome, but I'm being pessimistic now.
That's not really an issue here; what they are creating is an engine. They don't have to worry about good gameplay because all they are doing is creating a platform for other people (or themselves) to build upon to create a great game.
I don't see what's wrong with having both. You don't need to worry about them wasting gameplay development time on engine frippery if they're just working on the engine and leaving the gameplay to later or to other development studios with their own ideas.
On a similar note, if you're annoyed that there "isn't a game here yet", I haven't seen much out of HL2 except good physics and engine, and not much of us have seen much Doom 3 gameplay. But who knows. An engine is a base for something greater, so hopefully whatever they do on the UE3 engine, let's hope that it rocks, and it has something to do with the characters in the demo, because they have cool design. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
On a similar note, if you're annoyed that there "isn't a game here yet", I haven't seen much out of HL2 except good physics and engine, and not much of us have seen much Doom 3 gameplay. But who knows. An engine is a base for something greater, so hopefully whatever they do on the UE3 engine, let's hope that it rocks, and it has something to do with the characters in the demo, because they have cool design. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
HALO 2's had a gameplay demo since like froEVAR. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Doom3 pisses me off because it is missing gloss maps which means that the lighting effects have to be faked like before which kind of defeats the purpose of having normal maps and bump maps. if your gonna have bump maps and normal maps that means you want the computer to calculate the light shading rather than the artist painting the light in to fake it and if you are gonna have the computer calculating all the lighting effects then you are gonna need diffuse, specular, and gloss maps as well to help it to do its job exactly the way you want. so i don't know that they were thinking with that.
i don't know what Half-life 2 or FarCry is missing, however sometimes when i look at screenshots of Half-life 2 i seriously doubt whether they actually use normal maps at all.
pliz make natural selection for unreal engine 3 kthxbai. oh wait. unreal games don't have lag compensation; they have a delay when firing instead. ok screw that then
<a href='http://beyondunreal.jetstreamgames.co.nz/demos/unreal3engine_e3.zip' target='_blank'>http://beyondunreal.jetstreamgames.co.nz/d...l3engine_e3.zip</a>
I love you. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i love him more
I love you. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i love him more <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
but not as much as me
230kbps for the win!!