Unchaining Evolution Chambers

crypt

Some of you are obviously not that good informed. A short statement of Flarya to unchained chambers in an interview of AusNS:

<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>5. How do you feel about the current place of alien chambers in the game? Would you consider un-linking evolutions from them, tying upgrades to hives instead and employing them more as tactical devices, perhaps even then adding more for different tactical uses and increasing the importance of the gorge?</b>

There probably isn’t as much forward-building of alien chambers as I’d like.  At this point I think it’s too costly to make sweeping changes like that (every time we do, it takes months to get balance back).  I would’ve liked to hear your ideas 18 months ago. J  It’s possible we’ll try something like this in the future, but our current efforts are focused on polishing and tweaking what we have and getting it out there to a bigger audience. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The full interview: <a href='http://www.ausns.com/content/interviews/Flayra.html' target='_blank'>http://www.ausns.com/content/interviews/Flayra.html</a>

Daxx

Thats an old interview. Not to mention the fact that this change is currently implemented on several servers, and is not a sweeping change that would require months of playtesting to balance. If anything, it balances the game, as Recoups stats showed (however zealous he may have been <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->)

Please try again.

Zek

If you would read the quote more closely, crypt, the question was about unchained upgrades, i.e. upgrades that can be acquired without chambers.

Also, in that interview Flayra asserts that pirates are cooler than ninjas, so I think it's fairly obvious that he was intoxicated and suffering from impaired judgement.

crypt

<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not to mention the fact that this change is currently implemented on several servers, and is not a sweeping change that would require months of playtesting to balance. If anything, it balances the game, as Recoups stats showed (however zealous he may have been )<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, bacause the difference between unchaining chambers and unchaining upgrades is that huge....
And you cannot say the the game is more balanced just because of some win/loss stats from public servers. just increase the Alien armor ~+10 and you would have the same effect. And btw, there are already hundreds of suggestions for balancing the game with unchained chambers from players.

<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, in that interview Flayra asserts that pirates are cooler than ninjas, so I think it's fairly obvious that he was intoxicated and suffering from impaired judgement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, prob because he never did the ninjalesson <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <a href='http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj/pics/humor/div/419.html' target='_blank'>http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj/pics/humor/div/419.html</a>

Daxx

<!--QuoteBegin-crypt+Jul 18 2004, 07:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crypt @ Jul 18 2004, 07:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yea, bacause the difference between unchaining chambers and unchaining upgrades is that huge....
And you cannot say the the game is more balanced just because of some win/loss stats from public servers. just increase the Alien armor ~+10 and you would have the same effect. And btw, there are already hundreds of suggestions for balancing the game with unchained chambers from players.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, it would be. Unchaining the upgrades would allow a lifeform to take the same 3 upgrades from one chamber. While this would allow for slightly more tactics, you would still see DMS. That order would not change.

Unchaining the chambers broadens the Kharaa tactics a great deal, without having a large impact on balance. <b>Thats</b> what the stats show. Sure, maybe it dosn't overall balance the game, but this simple pugins change dosn't unbalance it either.

<b>All it does is add tactical versatility to the Kharaa team, AND FUN</b>

WhiteRabbit

THUMBS UP FOR 1ST POST!
all others unneeded
Aliens should try to suit the situation not DMS structure!

Super_Galactic_Singh

I'm a new player, granted, but i think the alien chambers should be unchained. It is true that surviving as a sulk or gorge without sensory upgrades is tough, just insane.

And besides, it would make the aliens as versatile as the aliens, which is always a good thing.

crazyperson

with regards to pirates being cooler than ninjas, pirates get to pillage women and rape the towns and yell AAARRRRRRR!!! all the time, <a href='http://www.ninjaburger.com/order/' target='_blank'>but ninjas must not bring attention to them that they are ninjas, or else they commit seppuku!!://but ninjas must not bring attention...ppuku!!</a>

i do like being able to choose which upgrades are useful for what situation, but if chambers become unchained then the costs must change. i like the m=10, d=12, and s=15 setup on servers ive played with unchained chambers.


aliens as versatle as aliens?

Icejelly

<!--QuoteBegin-crazyperson42+Aug 13 2004, 04:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crazyperson42 @ Aug 13 2004, 04:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> aliens as versatle as aliens? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
aliens as versatile as aliens <b><i>ought to be</i></b>.

Sewlek

I reverted my opinion about this: leave the chambers chained.

why?

- Cause unchaining would bring up some balance issues
- sensory chamber spamage
- less importance on hives

and I really like the gameplay as it is now, cause this is the NS I remember and such a drastic change would revert my favourite game too much.

Align

I still think we should unchain first, and then buff marines accordingly. Makes the game more fun. After playing on The Asylum, I really really don't want to go back to chained. It sucks.

Stakhanov

Yeah , Unchained is too addictive compared to Chained NS. Sure , casual NS games can be fun sometimes , but they don't taste the same as Unchained games.

Unchained doesn't diminish the hive's importance in any way , in fact it's quite the opposite. It is costly to drop 3 DCs for the hive 1 Fade , that tends to come much later than in Chained games , so it isn't nearly as effective. Aliens need 2 hives to take advantage of the deadly movement + sensory combos (like silence SoF , or celerity focus) , and I've seen comms successfully use the good old 2 hive lockdown strategy to strangle the alien team.

Sensories are rarely spammed , unless the aliens own the whole map in which case they already won anyway. But when they're placed strategically , the marines notice them more often as their screen fades to black...

More/better hand grenades would surely balance it out. If they spam sensories , spam grenades to flush them out of their cloaking nests.

Sewlek

maybe I should give it a shot and play unchained again <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I also like the unchained system, but only as plugin

And as you see, it?s possible to unchain them with plugins. You don?t have to force the whole community to play something what you like

Grendel

<!--QuoteBegin-waller+Jun 22 2004, 07:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (waller @ Jun 22 2004, 07:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I heard the Devs where thinking about adding it into B5, or is thta just hearsay ? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hearsay.

AMB_Source

Now its proof that its not in b5
But its still an excelent idea. Thumbs up

raqualevangel

agree with 1st post.

and im posting to catch more dev attention.

Daxx

<!--QuoteBegin-raqualevangel+Sep 27 2004, 07:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (raqualevangel @ Sep 27 2004, 07:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> agree with 1st post.

and im posting to catch more dev attention. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its been already caught, and it seem the opinion is that it would require too much work to implement and balance. Even tho theres an Plugin that does it already. And proves theres no major balance issues. And adds lots of strategy and fun to the Kharaa side. So meh.

Zek

I don't think a dev has ever said that, but I think we can reasonably assume that they're not going to put it into 3.0. They're trying to wrap things up for the full release and they're not going to make such big changes anymore. Of course, I'd love to be proven wrong.

VampiricDragonDX

Is this really a "big change?" I mean, it's the way NS was meant to be played in the first place. One of the earlier posts said "fear" made NS what it is. Indeed...silence, even WITHOUT cloaking, makes for some serious "OMG WTH AAAGAAAGH!!" marine moments...WITH cloaking...

If anything, it would be taking something that NS already thrives on, and making it even easier to achieve. I mean, I would LOVE to try my early silence skulk tactics on a pub NS server, but I never can. I hafta practice in-your-face jump-biting which is cool, but something about skuttling around silently instead of having extra armor makes the idea cooler.

I don't know, all I'm trying to say is that unchaining the chambers wouldn't be such a bad idea, since it takes aspects of NS that every player loves, and makes them easier to achieve without losing balance.

Not sure if this has been implemented, but if there have been any suggestions for the new chamber system, here's one:
--One Hive: Any combination of 3 upgrades for all aliens. Of course, the normal requirements would be required: if any alien wants level 3 of a skill, they need 3 chambers. However, every alien can choose whatever 3 levels of a skill they want, they would just have to evolve all three levels. If they want a level 3 silence, they need 3 movements. If they want level 2 silence and level 1 cloak, they need 2 movement and 1 sensory. However, they need to spend time evolving each level, so it would be gestate>silence, gestate>silence, gestate>cloaking. However, same current NS system still applies: once you pick a skill, you can only get that skill. If you have 3 chambers of each of the 3 types, 9 chambers total, you can select 3 skill levels total.

Game Example:
--1st Hive: 3 Movements, 1 Sensory, 1 Defense is built.

Combinations Allowed:
--Level 3 Silence
--Level 2 Silence & Level 1 Cloaking
--Level 1 Silence, Level 1 Cloaking, and Level 1 Caraspace

Combinations NOT Allowed:
--Level 3 Cloaking
--Level 3 Caraspace
--Level 1 Celerity, Level 1 Adrenaline, and Level 1 Silence

==========

...Yeah, I'm bored. Yeah, I'm tired. Yeah, I wish I didn't get STEAMED every 15 seconds for trying to play NS. But if I can't play, at least I can try to make it better...

...Meh.

<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Host_Error: Bogus player index during customization parsing
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Flounder

Zunni has already looked at this:

<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=68802&hl=' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...topic=68802&hl=</a>

Flayra likes it too. The devs support it and the community supports it. You can even mod your server and do it anyway. I say if they don't put it in beta6 we email our pub admins and have them mod it for us. If the devs aren't going to experiment we will. An unevolving NS is a dead NS. You might as well play CS Condition Zero. . .

eKo

I think that instead of unchaining the chambers what should happen is....

1 hive = 1 chamber (you can choose 1 ability)

2 hives = 2 chambers (you can choose 2 abilities form each chamber)

3 hives = 3 chambers (all upgrades accessible)(aliens have usually already won)

This would have to be tested alot (for balance issues)

and if you have say 2 hives and lost 1 you could only pick 1 ability from each chamber

if you had 3 hives and lost 1 then you could pick 2 upgrades from 3 chambers


..... so what do you think?

Thaldarin

<!--QuoteBegin-eKo+Oct 6 2004, 07:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eKo @ Oct 6 2004, 07:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think that instead of unchaining the chambers what should happen is....

1 hive = 1 chamber (you can choose 1 ability)

2 hives = 2 chambers (you can choose 2 abilities form each chamber)

3 hives = 3 chambers (all upgrades accessible)(aliens have usually already won)

This would have to be tested alot (for balance issues)

and if you have say 2 hives and lost 1 you could only pick 1 ability from each chamber

if you had 3 hives and lost 1 then you could pick 2 upgrades from 3 chambers


..... so what do you think? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try your luck on the I&S forum.

EDIT: Although personally Aliens should not have already won with 2 hives, thats why there is a third hive in NS.

illuminex

<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Zunni: After much discussion with Trevelyan to figure what he was talking about..

He has a valid idea...

I support this like a pair of old suspenders support pants..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Doesn't look like he supports Unchained. There are better ways to fix NS balance than by going unchained.

S_Badguy

holycr*pomgWTH post #1
why isn't this the way it is now

you got my vote for president

not to mention this would make gorging fun again.. not a hosehold kitchen chore!

JNighthawk

bump. Not sure if it's needed anymore, since ups are free and sensory has a buff and... eh, it's still a good idea.

N1Rampage

<!--QuoteBegin-JNighthawk+Mar 26 2005, 11:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JNighthawk @ Mar 26 2005, 11:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> bump. Not sure if it's needed anymore, since ups are free and sensory has a buff and... eh, it's still a good idea. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holy crapsky, you make fun of my thread, but you bump a thread that is getting to a year old? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Xeno

<!--QuoteBegin-JNighthawk+Mar 27 2005, 04:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JNighthawk @ Mar 27 2005, 04:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> bump. Not sure if it's needed anymore, since ups are free and sensory has a buff and... eh, it's still a good idea. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, it's not needed anymore. the game is fine as it is.

Cereal_KillR

Still chain the chambers as a "favored" chamber, but add in an extra cost for the other ones.
For example, place SC as first chamber. SC's cost 9 (or still 10), SC upgrades are free.
DC's and MC's cost 12-13, DC and MC upgrades cost 2.

Kenichi

ancient thread ahoy! If a topic like this wants to be brought up...shouldnt a new thread be created based off the current build :/

JNighthawk

No, what was said still applies.