<!--QuoteBegin-KaMiKaZe!!!+Jun 2 2004, 06:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KaMiKaZe!!! @ Jun 2 2004, 06:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I pop into a server and play it occasionally, but certainly not the 12+ hours I used to put into it a day. I'm waiting for some change. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ditto. NS is boring now, I feel like I did after a few months of 1.04 when jp/hmg rushing or 2 hive lockdowns were the only way to play
I wish I could play more... Right now I can play only on weekends (because of my studies) and I'm not bored of NS... yet... but the games aren't that fun as they used to be.
NEO_PhyteWe need shirtgons!Join Date: 2003-12-16Member: 24453Members, Constellation
edited June 2004
ive known about the mod since sometime in the 2.0 stage, but was unable to play online (dailup... *shudder*) until newyear (yay broadband) so i only got a small amount of 2.01 in before 3.0
and if pubs are too n00bish, try finding some servers with decent regs, and just go there. I play on one server exclusivly (mind you, i belong to their clan now) i know cwag showed up there once
i dont know if giving the server info would be considered advertising, so i wont post it (unless i hear otherwise)
:edit: i play NS like it was a job and i got paid overtime
If the devs do a quick and dirty source port for NS to HL2 it will be similar to ns3.0 no doubt.
"NS classic" for HL2 would really rock. I don't think remaking NS is such a huge insurmountable problem given enough random people from the forums. (if the devs agree of course, if not it would not only be morally bankrupt but also illegal). The biggest problem would most likely be deciding on what gets done, what gets fixed and balance, not the actual coding of the stuff(I'm a newb, and I've coded jetpacks, wall jumping, removed speed gain from gliding and from bunnyhopping without impairing normal movement, angle dependant long jump modules and snarks that follow the laser guide from the RPG but prefer enemies and don't attack the one who released them, recoil for HL guns and removing the _special exploit and possibillity of making an "anti-recoil script" to counteract the non-random upwards recoil without even digging into and taking advantage of tutorials(where would be the fun in that?). It isn't as difficult as it might seem, if a newbie coder like me can do this without much difficulty then what can 20 more experienced coders do?)
How horribly difficult might it be to cooperate with lots of coders, or even to get enough coders to join such a venture? Then there's the artwork side of things, alot of things would need an upgrade, the best would be if the devs would be kind enough to let us use NS resources from their(possible)port for an NS remake.
Or on second thought, it might be even cooler if the NS community could muster enough manual labour to do a totally independent HL2 MOD. Would most certainly be a very interesting experience. I've never seen any MOD made by more than a few people, imagine what you could do if you got enough heads with a little time and expertise in lots of different areas.
OK I'll quit day dreaming now... *crawls back to coding useless junk for a HLDM based MOD implemented at a random whim*
<!--QuoteBegin-Soylent green+Jun 2 2004, 07:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ Jun 2 2004, 07:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm a newb, and I've coded wall jumping, <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> please tell me you've shared this with the devs to enhance skulks
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> please tell me you've shared this with the devs to enhance skulks<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would I, any one can code it with a little elbow grease(and why would they want a newb giving them coding advice)? It's not that they can't code it, it is that they don't want it or don't care to alter the balance so drastically. Also I implemented TS like walljumping without doing any model animations(I'm not a modeler), so you allways land on your feet. All it does check if there is a surface in front of you within reach with the built in functions, then check if it's normal doted into your normalized forward direction vector is smaller than a certain number(which means that you are looking at the surface allmost perpendicular to it, not just accidentally doing it), checks if the upwards component of the surface normal is somewhat consistent with it being a wall and not a floor or ceiling. Then pushes you off in the direction of the normal and adds a little bias in the upwards direction.
In pseudo code the devs could probably get away with something like this for skulks (of course they'd have to do a bunch of tweaks too to get it feeling just right, and getting the animations to work):
Grab or calculate their up vector for their model(as the allready orient themselves to a surface and therefor allready have information such as this).
If player presses jump key while using the wallclimb movement type add a velocity to them in their up direction and change their movement type to "falling" and keep the wall climb code from kicking in during a very short while in order to prevent skulks from jumping more than once while leaving the surface(we really don't need "super jump scripts" that catapult you several times as high).
Standing on the ground near a wall is a problem, the user would allways expect to jump upwards not out from the wall, if standing near a wall you could do a trace downwards(4-12 units sounds about right to me) from the player origin to see if there is a floor in their collision hull within reach and then jump straight up instead whenever it is found.
I think you could get it working well in a weekend... and half a year of balance changes...
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Jun 2 2004, 03:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Jun 2 2004, 03:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I never play NS outside of a scrim or a cal match simply because it is not fun.
3.0 anyway <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Amen.. bring back 1.04!
As for me, I play ... once a week, but hopefully over the summer this will pick up. I like commanding a group of marines that are able to listen and preform on a map I like (IE Bast or Nancy!!)
<!--QuoteBegin-Ha.ze+Jun 2 2004, 08:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ha.ze @ Jun 2 2004, 08:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Jun 2 2004, 03:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Jun 2 2004, 03:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I never play NS outside of a scrim or a cal match simply because it is not fun.
3.0 anyway <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Amen.. bring back 1.04!
As for me, I play ... once a week, but hopefully over the summer this will pick up. I like commanding a group of marines that are able to listen and preform on a map I like (IE Bast or Nancy!!) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> actully bring 1.1 as they promised, 1.04 but with more expensive jps and bugfixes. An auto jump scribt would be nice so not so many damn players whine about bhop. Pros could still do bhop like bhop and noobs can do repeated jumping. Both ways gives a speed increase, and there's an easy way and a hard way. Sounds good? mm yes
<!--QuoteBegin-Seph Kimara+Jun 2 2004, 09:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Seph Kimara @ Jun 2 2004, 09:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I play at least 1 round/map every day still. The game has long since lost its spark which made earlier versions so great. I've mentioned reasons why I feel as such in the past. I'm just waiting to see if the BUS is as revolutionary as it's proclaimed to be. I'd personally like to see a revisit to 1.04, but again, that's just me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Amen to that too.. couldnt have said it better myself, 1.04 should <b>definantly</b> be revisited.
1 scrim a week, waiting for 4.0 or something <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I play maybe once a week. I've never been on the clan scene, all my playing is (was) pubs, and it just isn't doing anything for me anymore. It seems like the quality of pub games fell off heavily with 3.0. Even though players may appear skilled as ever, all games go down the same. Cap res, hope your teammates will help defend it. Research upgrades, put up hives and chambers. Then move in on the enemy base/hives. No one wants to make new strategies anymore. Defense-Mov-Sens indicates this. I generally don't ask to drop movement second now. You rely on the skill of your fades/jpackers as often as not.
Frankly, I love Ns. Combat is fun, but it reminds me too much of counter-strike, and no matter what happens, no matter WHICH map I choose, I'll get owned in fighting. Therefore: why play combat and be useless to my team, rather than provide a lunch-meat distraction to the rines as the Khaara or help build crap as a marine?
Yeah, my mindset is pessimistic, but this game has as many whiners as The Specialists. If you don't like the changes from 1.04, then don't play the game, or just get used to them. I wasn't around in that era of NS, but I DO think the babblers sound pretty funny...if they didn't lag up the servers too much.
co not, because of reasons not stating in case of a flame war <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
HMGing or shottying down early game skulks will always remain fun for me. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Ns is more fun, in a server full of mature and good players... In all other cases, CO at least does not **** me off as much as a noob NS game...
EDIT: why p_i_ s_ s is a forbidden word anyway... is it an insult to say that thing p_i_s_ses me off... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-RabidWeasel+Jun 2 2004, 04:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RabidWeasel @ Jun 2 2004, 04:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-KaMiKaZe!!!+Jun 2 2004, 06:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KaMiKaZe!!! @ Jun 2 2004, 06:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I pop into a server and play it occasionally, but certainly not the 12+ hours I used to put into it a day. I'm waiting for some change. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ditto. NS is boring now, I feel like I did after a few months of 1.04 when jp/hmg rushing or 2 hive lockdowns were the only way to play <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> same... sadly I find ns games are all to often disapointingly stagnant.
I am also irritated by all the in game whinging about how this should be nerfed, that should be fixed, he hax, she shouldn't go fade/onos, they should have done this, com didn't do that.... it just anoys me.
I used to be about the most enthusiastic ns player and server admin around. Now I find ns is geared towards high end fast fps rather than the nice thoughful rts with added kick that it originally promised.
To be honest the turning point for me was becoming a constie and seeing the 3.0 pre beta. After that is was all downhill and I dont know if thats because I started taking it too seriously or if because all the things that I hate about 3.0 gameplay.
I still run the server, mainly because nobody else will, I still play the odd game, but I am no longer really that keen. If ns3 disapeared off the face of the earth I wouldn't miss it.
The ntfm community was built on the backbone of ns 1.04, it seemed at times that 3.0 was trying to squish it but instead we have diversified into NeverWinter Nights and Day of Defeat as well as NS.
<!--QuoteBegin-Soylent green+Jun 2 2004, 11:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ Jun 2 2004, 11:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If the devs do a quick and dirty source port for NS to HL2 it will be similar to ns3.0 no doubt.
"NS classic" for HL2 would really rock. I don't think remaking NS is such a huge insurmountable problem given enough random people from the forums. (if the devs agree of course, if not it would not only be morally bankrupt but also illegal). The biggest problem would most likely be deciding on what gets done, what gets fixed and balance, not the actual coding of the stuff(I'm a newb, and I've coded jetpacks, wall jumping, removed speed gain from gliding and from bunnyhopping without impairing normal movement, angle dependant long jump modules and snarks that follow the laser guide from the RPG but prefer enemies and don't attack the one who released them, recoil for HL guns and removing the _special exploit and possibillity of making an "anti-recoil script" to counteract the non-random upwards recoil without even digging into and taking advantage of tutorials(where would be the fun in that?). It isn't as difficult as it might seem, if a newbie coder like me can do this without much difficulty then what can 20 more experienced coders do?)
How horribly difficult might it be to cooperate with lots of coders, or even to get enough coders to join such a venture? Then there's the artwork side of things, alot of things would need an upgrade, the best would be if the devs would be kind enough to let us use NS resources from their(possible)port for an NS remake.
Or on second thought, it might be even cooler if the NS community could muster enough manual labour to do a totally independent HL2 MOD. Would most certainly be a very interesting experience. I've never seen any MOD made by more than a few people, imagine what you could do if you got enough heads with a little time and expertise in lots of different areas.
OK I'll quit day dreaming now... *crawls back to coding useless junk for a HLDM based MOD implemented at a random whim* <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As grand and appealing as the project might sound there is a software engineering principle that has held true and is described in on of Computer Science's most ancient of texts.... The Mythical Man-Month.
Basically it says that the more people you add and the more space between those people that you add the longer and longer the project will take and the lower and lower the level of quality the project will have.
To be honest, a team of about 10-15 people (divided among coders, artists, designers, managers, testers, etc... and likely with jobs overlapping) in almost constant contact with one another (in the same room usually works best... even if it is a very large room) would provide the most ideal working environment for development. You can get bigger and more spread out than this if each member is EXTREMELY good at what they do and very communicative of progress and problems. And in that regard the only reason you would need any more than that is to extend the amount of content. Less content means needing less project members. In the case of NS, I'd say that a team of about 5 REALLY good developers with REALLY good communication could feasibly port it to HL2 in about a 3 month time... and that is riddled with graphical and gameplay bugs. It'd likely take another year to flesch out all the bugs originally set out to fix.
I hate dashing dreams on the rocks, but I just don't think that it will happen in any reasonable amount of time if ever.
I think the reason Im bored with it is being around so long and see many good features and gameplay changes dissapear for the sake of popularity. Its a bit depressing
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Jun 4 2004, 06:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Jun 4 2004, 06:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think the reason Im bored with it is being around so long and see many good features and gameplay changes dissapear for the sake of popularity. Its a bit depressing <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yes forgot about that.... add that to my list.
i had to pub for like a week, i was getting really bored of the game
today i our commander came back from technalical life diffacultys
we scrimed alot...
i feel back in love <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
the reason pubs suck is because of many things... one of the biggest, imo, is static defense. It's just not fun at all for the marines to build a gigantic turret farm (with a phase) that only 3 Onos' with 2 hives can kill.
If you unchained the chambers and removed turrets/ocs/elec, classic NS pubs would be about 50 times more fun.
While I do find pub play especially boring a lot of the time. I still think it's the best game I've ever played and until there's something better to move on to I'll continue to play this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As grand and appealing as the project might sound there is a software engineering principle that has held true and is described in on of Computer Science's most ancient of texts.... The Mythical Man-Month.
Basically it says that the more people you add and the more space between those people that you add the longer and longer the project will take and the lower and lower the level of quality the project will have.
To be honest, a team of about 10-15 people (divided among coders, artists, designers, managers, testers, etc... and likely with jobs overlapping) in almost constant contact with one another (in the same room usually works best... even if it is a very large room) would provide the most ideal working environment for development. You can get bigger and more spread out than this if each member is EXTREMELY good at what they do and very communicative of progress and problems. And in that regard the only reason you would need any more than that is to extend the amount of content. Less content means needing less project members. In the case of NS, I'd say that a team of about 5 REALLY good developers with REALLY good communication could feasibly port it to HL2 in about a 3 month time... and that is riddled with graphical and gameplay bugs. It'd likely take another year to flesch out all the bugs originally set out to fix.
I hate dashing dreams on the rocks, but I just don't think that it will happen in any reasonable amount of time if ever. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm fully aware of the need for communication and giving up ideas that you personally like if they aren't approved of by the team as a whole. I particullarilly like VALVe's development process(<a href='http://www.gamasutra.com/features/19991210/birdwell_pfv.htm' target='_blank'>"the cabal"</a>).
I don't think we could possible get more than one or two really good coders out of a bunch of random people with too much time on their hands. I think you would have to go for many coders and specialisation if it was to be tried.
I think a few things would be absolutely nessecary:
- Working out the ideas togheter, discussing how they are to be implemented and what interdependencies are going to occur(e.g. If I currently am only doing the physics code I need to work with the modeler to do the proper animations for various actions or I need to work with someone who is more experienced with model animations who in turn is working with the modeler). Standard divide and conquer technique, make a big task a series of many tiny tasks that can be done independently wherever possible. In the beginning it would be good to just talk it out without doing any coding or modelling at all. Any member must be willing to concede and reject their own ideas if disliked by the team without keeping a grudge. In particular it is important to discuss how
-Specialisation. As long as components can be kept independent and worked with without causing unexpected bugs this is a very powerfull tool to allow many people to work on a project. If I can do the physics portion of the engine totally independent it should go smooth(hey HL1 physics is simple and that's all we are really looking for here with the added bonus posibillity of HL2 physics for non-player objects without, pressumably, much extra work). But if I have to care about model animations and stuff it will take much longer because it's something I have never worked with and something I have to talk to the modeler about. Specialisation, as long as it is possible reduces drastically the need for communication and allows communication to be limited to mostly usefull stuff like ideas and disscussion of how something should be implemented. Striving for maximum specialisation among team members is IMO very essential.
-Record keeping of all pieces of code and all versions by other members and VERY CLEAR notes in the code of what every thing does and a place where all code is accessible to all coding members.
-Master list describing all changes and the external effect they might have, which member did them and where in the code.
-A series off packages with all the current code so that any member can get the current code and do a compile to check for bugs.
-peer review before approval. If I make some code someone with a fresh perspective must look through it and both be able to comprehend it without much problem(for otherwise I didn't comment properly) and take a carefull look that I didn't fail to spot external interdependencies and clearly note them for the rest of the team. And conversely I would have to review others code carefully.
A shared meeting place for discussions(something like an IRC channel, preferably with voice chat) and a shared FTP server would be nessecary for this.
A badly documented project is utter hell, that would never ever ever get completed or be bug free. Paranoia is a requirement.
I'm not convinced that the idea is hopelessly flawed.
Now that we all are properly depressed and out-of-NS, should we start the hype about the final v3 release? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
"Oh, oh; when does v3 come? Huh? Huh?! When can we play NS again? Huh? HUH?!" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(...God, if that version is as boring as this one, UT2004 forum will get a new member pretty soon <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Its sad cuz I left these forums bout a month ago (I was big into 1.4 loved that stuff) and around the time we got 2.0 it was like OOOOH ITS craptastic! Felt alot like the matrix reloaded you were getting a shoddy product meant for looks thats it. Then as we played 2.0 and all the useless patches that followed we saw that 3.0 came out and lo and behold more useless **** we didnt want... "We've got nades... you wont use them but we've got em" So that was that its the matrix revolutions a horrible ending to a beatiful starting project.
I mean everyone would just love a NS classic with a few bugs fixed I mean christ I could get a buddy of mine to tweak the JP and **** to work right its not the hardest (hes big into coding... me im an moron with a pencil <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) thing in the world to figure out... Why not just take an early version of the game, leave out all that excess fat they put on the game, Tone it up with the bug fixes n such and Ill bet you'll see a resurgance in the pubs because I found 1.4 pubs to be somewhat amazing in the way they played and how there was always hope... always heh then again maybe hindsight is 20/20 and im looking at it past the JP rush n such. Though really we lost JP rush to get what? Fade/Onos rush? Same coin just flipped...
Comments
Ditto. NS is boring now, I feel like I did after a few months of 1.04 when jp/hmg rushing or 2 hive lockdowns were the only way to play
and if pubs are too n00bish, try finding some servers with decent regs, and just go there.
I play on one server exclusivly
(mind you, i belong to their clan now)
i know cwag showed up there once
i dont know if giving the server info would be considered advertising, so i wont post it (unless i hear otherwise)
:edit:
i play NS like it was a job and i got paid overtime
"NS classic" for HL2 would really rock. I don't think remaking NS is such a huge insurmountable problem given enough random people from the forums. (if the devs agree of course, if not it would not only be morally bankrupt but also illegal). The biggest problem would most likely be deciding on what gets done, what gets fixed and balance, not the actual coding of the stuff(I'm a newb, and I've coded jetpacks, wall jumping, removed speed gain from gliding and from bunnyhopping without impairing normal movement, angle dependant long jump modules and snarks that follow the laser guide from the RPG but prefer enemies and don't attack the one who released them, recoil for HL guns and removing the _special exploit and possibillity of making an "anti-recoil script" to counteract the non-random upwards recoil without even digging into and taking advantage of tutorials(where would be the fun in that?). It isn't as difficult as it might seem, if a newbie coder like me can do this without much difficulty then what can 20 more experienced coders do?)
How horribly difficult might it be to cooperate with lots of coders, or even to get enough coders to join such a venture? Then there's the artwork side of things, alot of things would need an upgrade, the best would be if the devs would be kind enough to let us use NS resources from their(possible)port for an NS remake.
Or on second thought, it might be even cooler if the NS community could muster enough manual labour to do a totally independent HL2 MOD. Would most certainly be a very interesting experience. I've never seen any MOD made by more than a few people, imagine what you could do if you got enough heads with a little time and expertise in lots of different areas.
OK I'll quit day dreaming now... *crawls back to coding useless junk for a HLDM based MOD implemented at a random whim*
please tell me you've shared this with the devs to enhance skulks
Why would I, any one can code it with a little elbow grease(and why would they want a newb giving them coding advice)? It's not that they can't code it, it is that they don't want it or don't care to alter the balance so drastically. Also I implemented TS like walljumping without doing any model animations(I'm not a modeler), so you allways land on your feet. All it does check if there is a surface in front of you within reach with the built in functions, then check if it's normal doted into your normalized forward direction vector is smaller than a certain number(which means that you are looking at the surface allmost perpendicular to it, not just accidentally doing it), checks if the upwards component of the surface normal is somewhat consistent with it being a wall and not a floor or ceiling. Then pushes you off in the direction of the normal and adds a little bias in the upwards direction.
In pseudo code the devs could probably get away with something like this for skulks (of course they'd have to do a bunch of tweaks too to get it feeling just right, and getting the animations to work):
Grab or calculate their up vector for their model(as the allready orient themselves to a surface and therefor allready have information such as this).
If player presses jump key while using the wallclimb movement type add a velocity to them in their up direction and change their movement type to "falling" and keep the wall climb code from kicking in during a very short while in order to prevent skulks from jumping more than once while leaving the surface(we really don't need "super jump scripts" that catapult you several times as high).
Standing on the ground near a wall is a problem, the user would allways expect to jump upwards not out from the wall, if standing near a wall you could do a trace downwards(4-12 units sounds about right to me) from the player origin to see if there is a floor in their collision hull within reach and then jump straight up instead whenever it is found.
I think you could get it working well in a weekend... and half a year of balance changes...
3.0 anyway <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen.. bring back 1.04!
As for me, I play ... once a week, but hopefully over the summer this will pick up. I like commanding a group of marines that are able to listen and preform on a map I like (IE Bast or Nancy!!)
3.0 anyway <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen.. bring back 1.04!
As for me, I play ... once a week, but hopefully over the summer this will pick up. I like commanding a group of marines that are able to listen and preform on a map I like (IE Bast or Nancy!!) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
actully bring 1.1 as they promised, 1.04 but with more expensive jps and bugfixes.
An auto jump scribt would be nice so not so many damn players whine about bhop. Pros could still do bhop like bhop and noobs can do repeated jumping. Both ways gives a speed increase, and there's an easy way and a hard way. Sounds good? mm yes
Amen to that too.. couldnt have said it better myself, 1.04 should <b>definantly</b> be revisited.
Yeah, my mindset is pessimistic, but this game has as many whiners as The Specialists. If you don't like the changes from 1.04, then don't play the game, or just get used to them. I wasn't around in that era of NS, but I DO think the babblers sound pretty funny...if they didn't lag up the servers too much.
ns because its fun
co not, because of reasons not stating in case of a flame war <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ns is fun
EDIT: why p_i_ s_ s is a forbidden word anyway... is it an insult to say that thing p_i_s_ses me off... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Ditto. NS is boring now, I feel like I did after a few months of 1.04 when jp/hmg rushing or 2 hive lockdowns were the only way to play <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
same... sadly I find ns games are all to often disapointingly stagnant.
I am also irritated by all the in game whinging about how this should be nerfed, that should be fixed, he hax, she shouldn't go fade/onos, they should have done this, com didn't do that.... it just anoys me.
I used to be about the most enthusiastic ns player and server admin around. Now I find ns is geared towards high end fast fps rather than the nice thoughful rts with added kick that it originally promised.
To be honest the turning point for me was becoming a constie and seeing the 3.0 pre beta. After that is was all downhill and I dont know if thats because I started taking it too seriously or if because all the things that I hate about 3.0 gameplay.
I still run the server, mainly because nobody else will, I still play the odd game, but I am no longer really that keen. If ns3 disapeared off the face of the earth I wouldn't miss it.
The ntfm community was built on the backbone of ns 1.04, it seemed at times that 3.0 was trying to squish it but instead we have diversified into NeverWinter Nights and Day of Defeat as well as NS.
"NS classic" for HL2 would really rock. I don't think remaking NS is such a huge insurmountable problem given enough random people from the forums. (if the devs agree of course, if not it would not only be morally bankrupt but also illegal). The biggest problem would most likely be deciding on what gets done, what gets fixed and balance, not the actual coding of the stuff(I'm a newb, and I've coded jetpacks, wall jumping, removed speed gain from gliding and from bunnyhopping without impairing normal movement, angle dependant long jump modules and snarks that follow the laser guide from the RPG but prefer enemies and don't attack the one who released them, recoil for HL guns and removing the _special exploit and possibillity of making an "anti-recoil script" to counteract the non-random upwards recoil without even digging into and taking advantage of tutorials(where would be the fun in that?). It isn't as difficult as it might seem, if a newbie coder like me can do this without much difficulty then what can 20 more experienced coders do?)
How horribly difficult might it be to cooperate with lots of coders, or even to get enough coders to join such a venture? Then there's the artwork side of things, alot of things would need an upgrade, the best would be if the devs would be kind enough to let us use NS resources from their(possible)port for an NS remake.
Or on second thought, it might be even cooler if the NS community could muster enough manual labour to do a totally independent HL2 MOD. Would most certainly be a very interesting experience. I've never seen any MOD made by more than a few people, imagine what you could do if you got enough heads with a little time and expertise in lots of different areas.
OK I'll quit day dreaming now... *crawls back to coding useless junk for a HLDM based MOD implemented at a random whim* <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As grand and appealing as the project might sound there is a software engineering principle that has held true and is described in on of Computer Science's most ancient of texts.... The Mythical Man-Month.
Basically it says that the more people you add and the more space between those people that you add the longer and longer the project will take and the lower and lower the level of quality the project will have.
To be honest, a team of about 10-15 people (divided among coders, artists, designers, managers, testers, etc... and likely with jobs overlapping) in almost constant contact with one another (in the same room usually works best... even if it is a very large room) would provide the most ideal working environment for development. You can get bigger and more spread out than this if each member is EXTREMELY good at what they do and very communicative of progress and problems. And in that regard the only reason you would need any more than that is to extend the amount of content. Less content means needing less project members. In the case of NS, I'd say that a team of about 5 REALLY good developers with REALLY good communication could feasibly port it to HL2 in about a 3 month time... and that is riddled with graphical and gameplay bugs. It'd likely take another year to flesch out all the bugs originally set out to fix.
I hate dashing dreams on the rocks, but I just don't think that it will happen in any reasonable amount of time if ever.
yes forgot about that.... add that to my list.
today i our commander came back from technalical life diffacultys
we scrimed alot...
i feel back in love <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you unchained the chambers and removed turrets/ocs/elec, classic NS pubs would be about 50 times more fun.
Basically it says that the more people you add and the more space between those people that you add the longer and longer the project will take and the lower and lower the level of quality the project will have.
To be honest, a team of about 10-15 people (divided among coders, artists, designers, managers, testers, etc... and likely with jobs overlapping) in almost constant contact with one another (in the same room usually works best... even if it is a very large room) would provide the most ideal working environment for development. You can get bigger and more spread out than this if each member is EXTREMELY good at what they do and very communicative of progress and problems. And in that regard the only reason you would need any more than that is to extend the amount of content. Less content means needing less project members. In the case of NS, I'd say that a team of about 5 REALLY good developers with REALLY good communication could feasibly port it to HL2 in about a 3 month time... and that is riddled with graphical and gameplay bugs. It'd likely take another year to flesch out all the bugs originally set out to fix.
I hate dashing dreams on the rocks, but I just don't think that it will happen in any reasonable amount of time if ever.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm fully aware of the need for communication and giving up ideas that you personally like if they aren't approved of by the team as a whole. I particullarilly like VALVe's development process(<a href='http://www.gamasutra.com/features/19991210/birdwell_pfv.htm' target='_blank'>"the cabal"</a>).
I don't think we could possible get more than one or two really good coders out of a bunch of random people with too much time on their hands. I think you would have to go for many coders and specialisation if it was to be tried.
I think a few things would be absolutely nessecary:
- Working out the ideas togheter, discussing how they are to be implemented and what interdependencies are going to occur(e.g. If I currently am only doing the physics code I need to work with the modeler to do the proper animations for various actions or I need to work with someone who is more experienced with model animations who in turn is working with the modeler). Standard divide and conquer technique, make a big task a series of many tiny tasks that can be done independently wherever possible. In the beginning it would be good to just talk it out without doing any coding or modelling at all. Any member must be willing to concede and reject their own ideas if disliked by the team without keeping a grudge. In particular it is important to discuss how
-Specialisation. As long as components can be kept independent and worked with without causing unexpected bugs this is a very powerfull tool to allow many people to work on a project. If I can do the physics portion of the engine totally independent it should go smooth(hey HL1 physics is simple and that's all we are really looking for here with the added bonus posibillity of HL2 physics for non-player objects without, pressumably, much extra work). But if I have to care about model animations and stuff it will take much longer because it's something I have never worked with and something I have to talk to the modeler about. Specialisation, as long as it is possible reduces drastically the need for communication and allows communication to be limited to mostly usefull stuff like ideas and disscussion of how something should be implemented. Striving for maximum specialisation among team members is IMO very essential.
-Record keeping of all pieces of code and all versions by other members and VERY CLEAR notes in the code of what every thing does and a place where all code is accessible to all coding members.
-Master list describing all changes and the external effect they might have, which member did them and where in the code.
-A series off packages with all the current code so that any member can get the current code and do a compile to check for bugs.
-peer review before approval. If I make some code someone with a fresh perspective must look through it and both be able to comprehend it without much problem(for otherwise I didn't comment properly) and take a carefull look that I didn't fail to spot external interdependencies and clearly note them for the rest of the team. And conversely I would have to review others code carefully.
A shared meeting place for discussions(something like an IRC channel, preferably with voice chat) and a shared FTP server would be nessecary for this.
A badly documented project is utter hell, that would never ever ever get completed or be bug free. Paranoia is a requirement.
I'm not convinced that the idea is hopelessly flawed.
"Oh, oh; when does v3 come? Huh? Huh?! When can we play NS again? Huh? HUH?!" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(...God, if that version is as boring as this one, UT2004 forum will get a new member pretty soon <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
I mean everyone would just love a NS classic with a few bugs fixed I mean christ I could get a buddy of mine to tweak the JP and **** to work right its not the hardest (hes big into coding... me im an moron with a pencil <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) thing in the world to figure out... Why not just take an early version of the game, leave out all that excess fat they put on the game, Tone it up with the bug fixes n such and Ill bet you'll see a resurgance in the pubs because I found 1.4 pubs to be somewhat amazing in the way they played and how there was always hope... always heh then again maybe hindsight is 20/20 and im looking at it past the JP rush n such. Though really we lost JP rush to get what? Fade/Onos rush? Same coin just flipped...