Marine Bling
Grendel
All that is fear... Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
All that is fear... Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<div class="IPBDescription">Leads to Kharaa depression</div> <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Balance Issues</span>
Note: This refers to NS Classic gameplay.
<!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> teams have far too much bling and have to do far too little to get it. Once they have got it, it then becomes impossible to take it off them. <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> get jealous and cry, because their slimy goodness cannot compare. They then sit around, until the greedy capitalist marines come to foreclose on their hive.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Sources of resources for Marines</span>
i) RFK: Gained faster than kharaa (more kills)
ii) Marine Nodes are highly durable
iii) Marine Nodes are cheap
iv) All Marine finances are controlled by the person who gains most from increased resource flow (The Accountant, err, I mean Commander)
v) Marine Weapons are persistent after death.
vi) Marine Upgrades are persistent after death.
Notes:
i) RFK is only part of the issue, but it does both give the marines a very useful boost at the start and then makes their upgrades progressively more powerful. If a marine averages three kills a minute (most Rambo marines can easily do this) then he will actually generate as many resources as a node. The only difference being that most resource towers are quite peaceful chaps and cannot camp a hive simultaneously. Is it fair that marines get both the tactical advantages of area denial and the resource flow to go with it?
ii) Marine resource nodes require a similar amount of time to kill as a kharaa resource node, with basic troops. However, a shotgun is available to marines at the start of the game. This reduces the time taken to kill a kharaa node to a couple of seconds and doesn't really leave the marine open to counter attack in the same way as an LMG marine.
By comparison, short of herding, the kharaa have no comparitive method of rapid node destruction. Making marine resource nodes much weaker would make electricity (more) pointless.
iii) Currently, there is no reason for marines not to cap a resource node. A node only needs to exist for about a minute to pay for itself, providing the commander starts to recycle it in time. Any longer is just gravy. This seems to detract from any concept of investment, which would certainly explain why turrets and electricity both seem to be all but vanishing from most servers.
iv & v) The kharaa have no pimp daddy to slap their slimy arses around for bread. As a result, in public play marines will naturally have vastly better resource management. Conversely, Kharaa are actively encouraged to "hold out" on their team as they are rewarded for being a "garden instrument" with the ability to evolve into a higher lifeform.
In a clan game, this will be better managed, but the nature of individual resources means that whilst collectively the kharaa team have around 150+ RP, they can individually do a whole lot of nothing. On the other hand, the marine team can outfit three players with HMG/Shotguns, which can then be recovered, even if the original wielder [sic] is killed. These better weapons are almost guaranteed to return on their investment in terms of resources.
vi) Nuff said.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Analysis</span>
The marine game is comprised of a number of thresholds, e.g. Armoury Upgrade cost, Armour 1, etc. Every time the marine team reaches one of these thresholds, their ability to fight increases, multiplied by the size of the team. This leads to a situation where in small games, marines are stiffed, as their reliance on hitting these thresholds is their downfall.
Any benefit they get from needing to purchase less weapons is minimal, as there are less marines about to recover lost equipment and because the Kharaa team gain resources at a ridiculously fast rate. Additionally, due to contact being less (less RFK), terrain control being harder for a small team and the reduction in available firepower marines get humped.
We are all familiar with the reverse effect, which occurs in large games. Marines hit their thresholds quickly and easily, are frequently found in large clusters and are able to spread like cholera through a slum through most maps.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>So, what is the solution?</span>
Well, there isn't one solution. If there was, it would have been implemented. My brief examination of the various aspects of marine resourcing leads me to the following (possibly stupid) suggestions. One or more of these might be tried, although IMHO, I think the whole resource system should be redesigned and made to be more scalar. These would simply be short-term fixes:
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>RFK should be removed for marines.</span>
I don't think RFK adds anything to the individual gameplay for marines. All it does is help to break the game on large servers. It also encourages all kinds of tedious gameplay, like protracted endgames, Heavy Trains off one or two nodes, etc.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Upgrades need some form of maintainance <i>or counter</i></span>
I have suggested a spawn cost for marines based on the highest upgrade level attained. Alternatively (and perhaps better) the kharaa should gain some benefit based on the team size. One could arguably say that only having to build three chambers to upgrade the whole team is a benefit. It is questionable whether being able to withstand more damage by paying 2 res per evolution is a fair trade off for the marines being able to cause more damage.
An example of something that could be tried is giving Kharaa (or maybe just skulks or lower lifeforms) a <span style='color:yellow'><i>swarm bonus</i></span>. Anyone who has played C&C:Generals will be familiar with the idea. This sort of bonus could be progressive, benefiting the kharaa further depending on the number of proximate team mates.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Improve Alien Co-ordination</span>
Either that, or reduce their dependence on teamwork. Personally, I'm not tremendously keen on this and it is rather an ephemeral concept to try and implement at best.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Make Marine Resource nodes more expensive</span>
This seems to make a lot of sense to me. It would reduce marine expansion significantly, unless they wish to risk losing expensive structures. This would also further encourage marines to take and hold key points. At the very least, I would consider doubling the cost, if RFK is not removed. In all ways, doing this would help to slow down the marines rampant tech expansion, which is one of the main bugbears of Kharaa teams at the moment.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Make Marine Equipment Vanish after a marine is killed</span>
Whilst this has its merits, it would result in less "fun" for marines. Flayra likes the random element of it and it allows players to use more features of NS more often. I would go with his reasoning on this.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Unchain Upgrade Chambers</span>
While this increases the tactical flexibility of kharaa and reduces the marines' ability to simply counter any chamber the kharaa have, it will actually serve to soak up more of the alien team's early resources.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Make Kharaa Resource Towers free or very cheap</span>
WTH is he smoking? I hear you cry. Well, think about it. Marines have no difficulty in destroying them, so spamming them on nozzles near to marine spawn would make little difference to the kharaa. Besides which, Kharaa RTs have a hidden cost of 10rps that has to be paid for the gorge. This would encourage kharaa to be more adventurous in gaining resources, free up RPs for evolutions or additional chambers and make losing chambers early in the game less of a death knell to the team. It would also help bigger games by helping kharaa in their attempts to control resources and by delaying marines at the very least.
<i>Hear endeth the sermon. Go forth in war to pwn and camp thine enemies. Thanks be to Flayra.</i>
<b>If you would like to add your assent (or dissent) to the above and suggest which you think would be most helpful, that would be great. Feel free to add anything that suggests you have (or indeed can) read the whole post. </b>
If you'd like to write in capitals and demand that marines have lasers and that kharaa should have get a samurai sword upgrade, please find another thread to derail. Or just die, k thx.
Random additional comment, before it slips my addled mind:
Electricity - Of dubious worth. I would like to see electricity changed so that it rapidly drained Energy rather than Health. Think this through. If you can't see why it would be neat, you need to think harder. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
E&OE.
Note: This refers to NS Classic gameplay.
<!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> teams have far too much bling and have to do far too little to get it. Once they have got it, it then becomes impossible to take it off them. <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> get jealous and cry, because their slimy goodness cannot compare. They then sit around, until the greedy capitalist marines come to foreclose on their hive.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Sources of resources for Marines</span>
i) RFK: Gained faster than kharaa (more kills)
ii) Marine Nodes are highly durable
iii) Marine Nodes are cheap
iv) All Marine finances are controlled by the person who gains most from increased resource flow (The Accountant, err, I mean Commander)
v) Marine Weapons are persistent after death.
vi) Marine Upgrades are persistent after death.
Notes:
i) RFK is only part of the issue, but it does both give the marines a very useful boost at the start and then makes their upgrades progressively more powerful. If a marine averages three kills a minute (most Rambo marines can easily do this) then he will actually generate as many resources as a node. The only difference being that most resource towers are quite peaceful chaps and cannot camp a hive simultaneously. Is it fair that marines get both the tactical advantages of area denial and the resource flow to go with it?
ii) Marine resource nodes require a similar amount of time to kill as a kharaa resource node, with basic troops. However, a shotgun is available to marines at the start of the game. This reduces the time taken to kill a kharaa node to a couple of seconds and doesn't really leave the marine open to counter attack in the same way as an LMG marine.
By comparison, short of herding, the kharaa have no comparitive method of rapid node destruction. Making marine resource nodes much weaker would make electricity (more) pointless.
iii) Currently, there is no reason for marines not to cap a resource node. A node only needs to exist for about a minute to pay for itself, providing the commander starts to recycle it in time. Any longer is just gravy. This seems to detract from any concept of investment, which would certainly explain why turrets and electricity both seem to be all but vanishing from most servers.
iv & v) The kharaa have no pimp daddy to slap their slimy arses around for bread. As a result, in public play marines will naturally have vastly better resource management. Conversely, Kharaa are actively encouraged to "hold out" on their team as they are rewarded for being a "garden instrument" with the ability to evolve into a higher lifeform.
In a clan game, this will be better managed, but the nature of individual resources means that whilst collectively the kharaa team have around 150+ RP, they can individually do a whole lot of nothing. On the other hand, the marine team can outfit three players with HMG/Shotguns, which can then be recovered, even if the original wielder [sic] is killed. These better weapons are almost guaranteed to return on their investment in terms of resources.
vi) Nuff said.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Analysis</span>
The marine game is comprised of a number of thresholds, e.g. Armoury Upgrade cost, Armour 1, etc. Every time the marine team reaches one of these thresholds, their ability to fight increases, multiplied by the size of the team. This leads to a situation where in small games, marines are stiffed, as their reliance on hitting these thresholds is their downfall.
Any benefit they get from needing to purchase less weapons is minimal, as there are less marines about to recover lost equipment and because the Kharaa team gain resources at a ridiculously fast rate. Additionally, due to contact being less (less RFK), terrain control being harder for a small team and the reduction in available firepower marines get humped.
We are all familiar with the reverse effect, which occurs in large games. Marines hit their thresholds quickly and easily, are frequently found in large clusters and are able to spread like cholera through a slum through most maps.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>So, what is the solution?</span>
Well, there isn't one solution. If there was, it would have been implemented. My brief examination of the various aspects of marine resourcing leads me to the following (possibly stupid) suggestions. One or more of these might be tried, although IMHO, I think the whole resource system should be redesigned and made to be more scalar. These would simply be short-term fixes:
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>RFK should be removed for marines.</span>
I don't think RFK adds anything to the individual gameplay for marines. All it does is help to break the game on large servers. It also encourages all kinds of tedious gameplay, like protracted endgames, Heavy Trains off one or two nodes, etc.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Upgrades need some form of maintainance <i>or counter</i></span>
I have suggested a spawn cost for marines based on the highest upgrade level attained. Alternatively (and perhaps better) the kharaa should gain some benefit based on the team size. One could arguably say that only having to build three chambers to upgrade the whole team is a benefit. It is questionable whether being able to withstand more damage by paying 2 res per evolution is a fair trade off for the marines being able to cause more damage.
An example of something that could be tried is giving Kharaa (or maybe just skulks or lower lifeforms) a <span style='color:yellow'><i>swarm bonus</i></span>. Anyone who has played C&C:Generals will be familiar with the idea. This sort of bonus could be progressive, benefiting the kharaa further depending on the number of proximate team mates.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Improve Alien Co-ordination</span>
Either that, or reduce their dependence on teamwork. Personally, I'm not tremendously keen on this and it is rather an ephemeral concept to try and implement at best.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Make Marine Resource nodes more expensive</span>
This seems to make a lot of sense to me. It would reduce marine expansion significantly, unless they wish to risk losing expensive structures. This would also further encourage marines to take and hold key points. At the very least, I would consider doubling the cost, if RFK is not removed. In all ways, doing this would help to slow down the marines rampant tech expansion, which is one of the main bugbears of Kharaa teams at the moment.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Make Marine Equipment Vanish after a marine is killed</span>
Whilst this has its merits, it would result in less "fun" for marines. Flayra likes the random element of it and it allows players to use more features of NS more often. I would go with his reasoning on this.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Unchain Upgrade Chambers</span>
While this increases the tactical flexibility of kharaa and reduces the marines' ability to simply counter any chamber the kharaa have, it will actually serve to soak up more of the alien team's early resources.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Make Kharaa Resource Towers free or very cheap</span>
WTH is he smoking? I hear you cry. Well, think about it. Marines have no difficulty in destroying them, so spamming them on nozzles near to marine spawn would make little difference to the kharaa. Besides which, Kharaa RTs have a hidden cost of 10rps that has to be paid for the gorge. This would encourage kharaa to be more adventurous in gaining resources, free up RPs for evolutions or additional chambers and make losing chambers early in the game less of a death knell to the team. It would also help bigger games by helping kharaa in their attempts to control resources and by delaying marines at the very least.
<i>Hear endeth the sermon. Go forth in war to pwn and camp thine enemies. Thanks be to Flayra.</i>
<b>If you would like to add your assent (or dissent) to the above and suggest which you think would be most helpful, that would be great. Feel free to add anything that suggests you have (or indeed can) read the whole post. </b>
If you'd like to write in capitals and demand that marines have lasers and that kharaa should have get a samurai sword upgrade, please find another thread to derail. Or just die, k thx.
Random additional comment, before it slips my addled mind:
Electricity - Of dubious worth. I would like to see electricity changed so that it rapidly drained Energy rather than Health. Think this through. If you can't see why it would be neat, you need to think harder. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
E&OE.
Comments
Cheap Alien Res Towers: They die more than the team does in one game, so why not?
Removing RFK for Marines: All it does it prolong end games and rewards marine rambos for camping etc.
Electrification killing Khaara Energy: This would rock, to take down an RT as any lifeform it would require mc's/adren, but I think that this idea is kinda the opposite of what we want, aliens have enough of a time taking down marine res.
Upping Cost of Marine RT's: This has to be done, 15 res is just insane... They should be about 20-25 at minimum, they pay themselves off way too quickly at such a low prices, and (if he's lucky) a marine earns enough for a res tower after 5 kills.
It would also force the marines to eradicate all of the structures around the node to totally destroy it. Perhaps other things can be used to "push" the growth forward. I'm thinking of border pushes for the Khaara like you see in Rise of Nations for example.
Changing electricity is a neat idea, but wouldn't this make it more powerful? RTs would be nearly invulnerable to anything but ranged attacks like bile bombs and acid rocket, and aliens need multiple hives to unlock those.
My thoughs exactly
Alot in there to think about
Of course, if they implement all of these ideas, the aliens will become vastly overpowered. They should start with the ones that don't remove fun from the game, like the electricity idea (I swear, that was some sort of divine inspiration on Grendel's part).
RFK gone for marines: sounds good. There might need to be a slight counter in an increase of marine resource harvesting or reducing alien RFK to just 1 or 2 (instead of 1, 2, or 3).
Spawn cost on marines based on upgrade level is an interesting idea, but may begin to drag the marines in the late game, and would be a frustrating obstacle for commanders (got 24 res, get ready to build that arms la... CRAP! STOP SPAWNING!) I think a swarm bonus on the aliens would be a better and more entertaining idea.
How do you increase alien coordination? You can only encourage it; you can't balance players.
Making resource nodes more expensive... that's kinda iffy. I often command, and making it anywhere beyond 25 would make it sort of frustrating.
Make marine weapons disappear? Nah, it would hurt the fun.
Unchaining the chambers: I was initially for this idea, but it would (like you said) soak up the resources without some very watchful alien management. This would end up hurting the less-strategy-oriented pubbers, where the aliens are struggling the most.
Cheap alien chambers: an interesting idea. But this would practically force commanders to give out shotguns early game to counter an extremely rapid alien expansion. If this is implemented, my suggestion is at 5 resources, with half or maybe only a third of the original hit points.
Ah, there is a lot in here to mull over...
Cheap Alien Res Towers: They die more than the team does in one game, so why not?
Removing RFK for Marines: All it does it prolong end games and rewards marine rambos for camping etc.
Electrification killing Khaara Energy: This would rock, to take down an RT as any lifeform it would require mc's/adren, but I think that this idea is kinda the opposite of what we want, aliens have enough of a time taking down marine res.
Upping Cost of Marine RT's: This has to be done, 15 res is just insane... They should be about 20-25 at minimum, they pay themselves off way too quickly at such a low prices, and (if he's lucky) a marine earns enough for a res tower after 5 kills. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like these points a lot as well. At the very least we could *TRY* even some of them?
IMO or increase a bit res tower cost for marines, or make them less durable, or alien res towers with more HP
Swarm bonus - Very nice idea spawned from Generals <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Electricity draining energy - Pure Genius, also maybe cheapen the elec...maybe down to 15-20?
Unchaining towers - adds more strategy as said.
Also for the res towers it should be one of these, maybe 2: cheaper alien rts, more expensive 'rine rt, weaker 'rine rts, or free gorge.
Great post Grendel, maybe since you are a pt flay will pay attention to this topic <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You are aware that there are:
a) Movement chambers
b) An adrenaline upgrade
I presume?
<b>RFK removed from marines</b>
Slows the marines down. Forcing them to take and hold resource points rather than points that allow them to maximise alien kills.
<b>Explaination:</b> They lose a valuable source of income, they are now further proitised towards maximising the income sources they do have access to.
<b>Upgrade Maintainance</b>
Assuming the difference was significant enough to have any effect, the suggested maintainance could cause the following effect: As the marines progress higher up the tech tree they become more vunerable to resource loss. This could result in a sudden swing in the late game if the marines lose just a few resource towers.
Saving resources becomes more difficult.
I considered suggesting the ability to turn off upgrades to deal with this. It makes little sense to do though, since by turning them off the marines just become weaker and thus ever more unable to deal with the alien threat.
How would beacon be affected by this?
<b>Explaination:</b> As the price for each marine increases the commander becomes more limited in how they spend resources. Once resource tower growth stops they will become reliant on keeping marines alive in order to avoid crippling loses to their pool. The loss of resource towers will result in a loss of income, the assumption I'm making here is that neither side is winning the tech race. If this is true then marine losses will remain roughly constant, thus removing ever greater amounts of resources from the pool.
<b>v2:</b> Actually thinking about it, what I'm assuming is that marine losses will remain constant. With the current Fade, the marines might suffer a fast and terrible defeat due to resource crippling. Fades would in this case become the ultimate deciders of the game, either the marines can deal with them with minimal casualties or they lose. In a way this is simply RFK increasing with the upgrade cost of the victim. Except in reverse, since marines are being weakened.
<b>Upgrade Counter</b>
In small games aliens are rewarded for rushing. In large games they are just rewarded. It cannot be reasonably considered a counter for marine upgrades, since alien numbers are liable to stay fixed through out the game. This bonus would likely only increase the alien need for teamwork.
<b>Explaination:</b> Groups are rewarded, which means the aliens will gain by staying grouped whenever possible. In small games this isn't feasable to maintain map control, but it is to attack a single location, like the marine base. In large game grouping is far more likely to occur, since groups become ever more powerful, the best tactic is to organise take downs of marine controlled areas.
<b>Increased resource tower expense</b>
Marines would have to be able to survive on less resource nodes. Denying alien nodes would grow in importance. Any tricks found to block aliens from building on empty nodes would be used. Dropping non resource tower buildings on them for instance.
<b>Explaination:</b> With less ability to build resource towers the marines maybe forced to limit alien growth in order to stay on a level footing.
<b>Unchain Alien Tech</b>
Unlikely to be balanced quickly, but more fun.
Would allow aliens to increase their early game power at the expense of mid game power. If the marines are teching slower this might not matter. Either the aliens will still rush fades, getting to their mid all the faster (relative to the marines), or they would become more powerful relative to the marines in a longer early game. If the marines are still teching as speedily then I don't feel qualified to predict the effects. Would make the aliens far more unpredictable in terms of battle options.
<b>Explaination:</b> On second thoughts I have no idea how this will affect things. The theory is that the aliens will build more chambers out of self interest, thus slowing the fade rush a little.
<b>Disregard unless you can find some justification for the above.</b>
<b>Cheap Alien Towers</b>
Since towers are cheap, gorges will spend their res on defending them instead. Net result will be tougher to destroy towers in most cases. Skulks will likely be enlisted early game to grab nodes quickly. This will speed up the development of the Alien mid game.
<b>Explaination:</b> Gorges generally like to build. In earlier versions when gorges have had the resources available they have invented various cunning tactics to lock marines in place and even break stalemates, all through the use of buildings.
<b>Energy Drainage</b>
Rather than decreasing the survival rate of the aliens, it increases the survival rate of the marines. This means that battle around electricity would last longer. The drain might need to be more constant, or low energy attacks will be relatively unaffected. This would give the marines a much needed boost to survivability. Aliens might be forced to hit and run more.
<b>Explaination:</b> The aliens have two choices, either back off to recharge and lose the bonus of being in close to the marines or time their attacks and conserve energy to counter the energy loss. Actually charge may still be useful to move in with, but the drain on energy is going to ruin the onos ability to use it as an escape advantage or they can run away earlier.
Edit: Now with added explainations!
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
that idea catches my attention
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->RFK should be removed for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it really doesn't fit tbh, and it scales horribly
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Upgrades need some form of maintainance or counter<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Instead of making upgrades have counters or require maintence, why not make the upgrades scale in cost in accordance with the marine team?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Improve Alien Co-ordination<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Improve hivesight
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Make Marine Resource nodes more expensive<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make marine nodes cost 20, or reduce the rate at which resources are collected by marine res towers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Make Marine Equipment Vanish after a marine is killed<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah. Currently this helps to make marines unique in how they reuse weapons.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unchain Upgrade Chambers<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Make Kharaa Resource Towers free or very cheap<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reduce to 12 res perhaps? reducing it to 10, while it sounds logical, is just too little; a res tower should be more valable than a upgrade chamber.
Alternatively, you could just make alien nodes tougher.
And of course, if I may throw something in, it is that alien nodes should be perfectly silent, so marines cannot find which hive aliens start with easily, and also so commanders cannot find the nodes easily as well.
And seriously the aliens need a throwaway type unit like the shotgun... I'd suggest 8 res lerk and balance it from there
oh.. and free and fast (1 second like combat) upgrades for skulks. spending 6 res and 15 seconds getting 3 upgrades is really... really... really... pointless/gimped
And seriously the aliens need a throwaway type unit like the shotgun... I'd suggest 8 res lerk and balance it from there
oh.. and free and fast (1 second like combat) upgrades for skulks. spending 6 res and 15 seconds getting 3 upgrades is really... really... really... pointless/gimped
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heh I don't really care about credit but seriously do any devs read the forums? even worse.. do they play NS? These problems are very very basic and you can figure them out after speccing a max of 5 top clan scrims I'm sure. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps it's just the way you say things.
Draining energy isn't an bad idea. The counter would go from D chambers to M chambers, as not even an onos would be able to kill an elec node.
Of course, right now the counter to elec chambers is D chambers... and D chambers are overused...
and of course, if you unlinked the chambers, then if mairnes started to use a lot of elec nodes you could just put down a movement chamber or two and skulks could get the adren upgrade to counter it.
Not bad.
As long as chambers are unlinked, then I would suggest following through on the electricity idea, otherwise, no. Movement chambers suck too much right now for them to be used movement first, and as long as aliens don't go movement chambers people will use electricity all over the place (yes, even in clan matches) to protect phase gates you don't have enough energy to destroy, and lockdown hives.
But if aliens had all three chambers avalible 24/7 then you could do this with ease.
Next, I think upgrading a skulk should take 2 seconds, and cost 1 res for the skulk. Or if the upgrade is free, make the upgrade take 4 seconds to do.
Free upgrades are too much even for a skulk, esp. once you get to the two hive level with leap.
Also, ideally upgrade costs should be like this:
Skulk - 1 Res
Gorge - 2 Res
Lerk - 2 Res
Fade - 3 Res
Onos - 3 Res
Two ideas I've heard many times before for aliens and really like:
1.) Upgrades either free or 1 res, and significantly faster evolve time. Both of these things barely have an effect on higher life forms but seriously hinders the usefulness of upgrades for skulks by lengthening their "spawn" time and inhibiting their res income. Making them more easily acquired would also increase the value of the more skulk-friendly chambers, MC and SC, if the unchaining suggestion isn't taken. Flexible upgrade counters would make aliens SO much more fun to play.
2.) Modify alien R4K to give res to the killer(1 or 2) and also give 1 res to every Gorge on the team. This encourages perma-gorging which has become incredibly slowpaced and dull since 2.0's res reforms, and maybe opens up some new strategies for aliens: either let most of the team gorge for res like currently, or leave one or two permagorges and let the rest of the team give them R4K? Anything that gives aliens options is a good change in my mind.
Remove RFK? I have my own thread regarding that idea. However, for a shorter solution I'd vote for removing RFK from both sides. Aliens need to learn teamwork and defend their nodes as well, just like marines.
Unchain chambers? Great idea but marines may need some changes in order to boost their upgrade flexibility.
Scrap RFK for both sides, and make alien RTs cost 20 res total, and marine RTs 20 res total. (eg 10 gorge 10 RT, 5 gorge, 15 RT)
The elec damaging adren sounds brilliant! means that a skulk takes twice as long (two epochs) to kill an RT, which means plenty of time for marines to come and save it. Much better than current electricity.