Suicide
Shzar
Join Date: 2003-09-21 Member: 21098Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-09-21 Member: 21098Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Discuss.</div> Considering how a certain thread in the Off Topic forum has changed into a fairly decent onslaught of personal opinion, I thought I might open a thread in the discussion forum so that we may continue talking about the subject and reserve the other topic for expressions of grief.
My opinion? Suicide is, most of the time, a matter of disease; that a malady is affecting the person and is diminishing his/her ability to think properly. It is no less a disease than, say, cancer; the person has limited control over it. Since signs and symptoms of depression are not always obvious (especially to outside observers), it often goes undiagnosed, and any changed of behaviour may be thought of as a "blue spell." Thus, if often goes untreated, sadly. The patient can't always be trusted to seek treatment; remember, s/he can't think properly, and the dread for that person is as real as the keyboard under your fingers.
However, these people <b>very rarely</b> ever commit suicide without warning. I think it's up to the friends and family of the person to recognize such signs and take him/her to treatment.
As with all discussion topics, be civil, and regard the other replies with seriousness that you would like yours to be. Keep it scientific.
My opinion? Suicide is, most of the time, a matter of disease; that a malady is affecting the person and is diminishing his/her ability to think properly. It is no less a disease than, say, cancer; the person has limited control over it. Since signs and symptoms of depression are not always obvious (especially to outside observers), it often goes undiagnosed, and any changed of behaviour may be thought of as a "blue spell." Thus, if often goes untreated, sadly. The patient can't always be trusted to seek treatment; remember, s/he can't think properly, and the dread for that person is as real as the keyboard under your fingers.
However, these people <b>very rarely</b> ever commit suicide without warning. I think it's up to the friends and family of the person to recognize such signs and take him/her to treatment.
As with all discussion topics, be civil, and regard the other replies with seriousness that you would like yours to be. Keep it scientific.
Comments
I would argue that suicide is a problem, not a choice. When people decide to commit suicide, they usually arrive at the conclusion their life is worthless and no longer worth living.
The utter falsness of that is all too painfully obvious to their friends and family after they decide to off themselves. I have never heard anyone say (when someone commited suicide) - "ah, good to hear, he had nothing to live for anyway".
There are plenty of people who have faced suicide, decided not to, got help and lived long and happy lives. I equate defending someones decision to wave the ultimate white flag as AGREEING with their conclusion that they are worthless.
I agree wholeheartedly.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[edit] ok now for some real content.
While it *is* true that people can be driven to suicide through clinical depression (read: chemical imbalances), in my opinion that is only one of the many factors that lead someone to that choice. Speaking from experience, suicidal thoughts mainly come when one has a distorted perception of not only one's own intrinsic value, but also its extrinsic - the value derived from the person's relationships with other people.
From my own thoughts on the matter, if a person doesn't have any deep friendships or accountability to others, they are a lot more likely than not to resort to self-destructive behavior and/or suicide. That's not to say that people with those sorts of friendships don't do this, but I think inherently it stems from a lot from a self-centered world view, without anyone to contradict it.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I only ask because it's against the rules to have Religion vs. Science discussions.
The reason is religion - if God says it's a sin, you have to be able to be held accountable, so it must be your choice. It cannot be the way you were born, or a disease you're affected by.
Edit: Must admit though, homosexuality is somewhat different in nature from depression, because it is a property of a person, and not a disease that is treatable. But simply because a disease is treatable doesn't mean it's the person's fault for acquiring the disease, or not being able to fight it off.
Life is short, and parts of it suck. For some it sucks more than others. If they wanna blow their brains out because it's easier this way, then fine.
And if you seriously want to defend that some people that kill themselves are not in full control of their mental facilities, then I say we don't need these people that are prone to periods of acting without thinking.
What I said above does not apply to people that do something that's not entirely safe and get themselves killed in the process. That's a whole different story.
Feeling alone, helpless and worthless, then slitting your wrists and bleeding to death on the floor just isnt something you can ignore as "their choice".
Our society condemns self mutilation. It is set up to protect the individual, even if it needs to protect the individuals FROM themselves. If you are in a frame of mind where you can make a decision to take your own life, then you are clearly not in a stable or rational state. When people are not in a position to make a clear and rational decision, we dont let them. You have a serious, life threatening problem.
"Well Mr Johnston, you've clearly completely and utterly flipped your lid - so go ahead and do what you feel is best" = shortest way OUT of the medical profession.
So either you disagree with suicide and refuse to condone it, or you argue for the right of the mentally unstable to make their own choices. Please, give me fair warning before you break the locks down at the local mental ward.
EDIT
[WHO]Them I cant believe you said that - society is better off without suicidal people. The number of suicides each year in the western world is growing. That doesnt point to a rampant genetic disease, it points to serious developing social issues. People who kill themselves are suffering, they cant see any other way out of the pain. You cant pat them on the back, hand them a pistol and walk away. If you are suffering, if you are sick - you get help, not a "meh better of without him".
Honestly people, this is weird. Here stands the fanatical neo-con trying to convince people of the value of human lives, especially those that are suffering. We aint talking euthanasia here - I thought this is something we could all agree on. Suicide = bad.
The problem lies in the fact that humans have emotions which triggers irrational choices/actions. There is no problem with the 90 year old woman on life support asking for a mercy killing, she is in pain or simply has lost the will to live. However a 20 year old deep in depression while drunk surely isn't thinking straight and may in fact THANK those who saved him when sober/out of his depression.
Who says I can't?
Who says I can't? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Feel free to do so... but the point is there is a problem with society if people would rather DIE then be a part of it.
To force oneself out of the box of looking at the negitive in situations, and seeing the positive is not an easy task, and uncertianty is an optimists worst enemy. Many people kill themselfs while thier whole life is ahead of them, and they have only begun to reap the benifits of thier work; suicide is not a logical decision, but a response to inner forces that the outside world does not nessicarily act apon.
Saying all of that, it is their life. If they don't want to continue then they don't have to. If I knew a friend of mine was feeling suicidal (speaking hypothetically but I have some experience in this too) then I would do my best to break them out of their depression, to let them see the good things in life (which, as someone has already said, is extremely hard to do when you're in that state) and to just improve in general. If however, they still couldn't deal with it I... well I wouldn't judge them, I'd feel bad about it sure but I would try and be understanding rather than branding them cowards or whine about how their death has affected me (which it hasn't in anyway except emotionally... something that really isn't that important to be honest).
Self Mutilation is different, there is a difference between severely reducing the quality of that life and simply opting out, no-one can safely say they are acting rationally while they are scarring themselves but it is perfectly possible to logically decide that life is going to be more difficult than you are willing to tolerate.
It is a shame that lives can get to that state but it is a fact that they do. I live my life because I choose to live it, not out of habit. If something so bad happened that I didn't want to live it anymore then I would hope that people would just accept my decision instead of insulting me.
After all, while things can get better, they can get worse too.
I say we help them as best as possible but don't judge when they decide not to.
[Edit] because things I miss when previewing my post become blindingly obvious afterwards! [/Edit]
what about people who have no faith in a god of some sort? (Don't connect a lack of faith to a reason for wanting to suicide... I have no faith in any god as I'm not religeous, but I have no intentions of ending things )
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem lies in the fact that humans have emotions which triggers irrational choices/actions. There is no problem with the 90 year old woman on life support asking for a mercy killing,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so why is mercy killing illegal in so many countries... ? some thing I don't understand to be honest.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bogglesteinsky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bogglesteinsky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->bearing in mind that most suicide people do not believe in an aferlife<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... based on what? i'm not disagreeing, just wondering where you get this from - you know any/many/some people who have (/tried) to commit suicide?
there are laws allowing for freedom of speech... the right to say what you want (within reason) - there are laws to protect life, to give people the freedom to live their live as they choose (within reason) - why is ending your own life considered wrong? I don't think it's right - I think any one who is suicidal should get as much help that is suitable for them to try to convince them otherwise - but that doesn't mean we have the right to NOT let them suicide... people who become paralised at an early age and aren't ABLE to take their own life - we don't let them...
what kind of freedom is that?
Just because they don't believe in God doesn't mean he doesn't exist (the argument works the other way round too).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Bogglesteinsky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bogglesteinsky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->bearing in mind that most suicide people do not believe in an aferlife<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... based on what? i'm not disagreeing, just wondering where you get this from - you know any/many/some people who have (/tried) to commit suicide?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the simple reason that if they believed in an afterlife, chances are they wouldn't be commiting suicide. Takeing Christianity as an example, If you believed it was true, you would believe that suicide was wrong, destroying God's temple, which you don't have the right to destroy. You would also understand that there is work to be done on earth, and it is not your choice when you go, just like it was not your choice to be born.
People commit suicide because they feel their life is worthless. Anything can trigger that such as depression or ending of a relationship. People who believed in an afterlife would believe that life has an intrinsic value to it, something what you do or what you are cannot affect. When a religious person go to the lowest of the low, they would start praying to their deity, getting an external source of power to help pull them through.
She couldn't go anywhere, the courts would prevent that by her foster family, she couldn't take two more years of hell (she was 16, legally a full adult at 18 here in NZ), the drugs and medication she was given weren't working (though I believed myself she had ceased taking it). With no options left in her eyes, she decided that she wanted to end it all, the torment she felt from all the guilt and **** her supposed 'family' gave her, the fact she pushed everyone away and felt alone due to pushing everyone away. It was too much for a sixteen year old to take, and so on March the 17th 1998 she commited suicide by slitting her arms straight down from the wrist and swimming out into the ocean until she fell unconcious.
Only I got a suicide note, posted to me in a neat little letter. Only I knew why she did it fully, only I knew about the abuse among other things she suffered daily from an immensely hostile foster family, who out of the public eye hated her for their daughters death. She simply couldn't take that pain, I know she couldn't, and so at her funeral I sat at the back and didn't shed a tear. Her family of course did, or at least probably tried to, but I doubt it meant anything other than for show.
For her, suicide was a release from a torturous environment she got no say or choice in. To this day, I still support her decision as whatever happened, she got out of her pain and no longer suffers for it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The reason you never see anyone say they're glad someone killed themselves is because it's a common courtesy. At the very best, it would be considered "flame bait" to do so.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad she ended it, she couldn't handle what was going on, couldn't of been expected to either for that matter at 16, and had no-one to go to. She feined happiness on the outside while increasing the damage on the inside and eventually she went and did it. I still think I'm the only person who knew what she truely thought.
And again, I am glad she found a way out. Nobody deserved to be blambed for something they didn't do, and then be completely cruicified by their family for it.
Suicide is someones right, they can take their life if they damn well please. When you are stuck in a pit with no way out, the best solution isn't always trying to dig it deeper hoping to reach the other side of the world.
However, she chose to take her life and I completely understand why and don't judge at all. You're extremely right Aegeri, no-one should have to have a life like that.
<!--QuoteBegin-juice+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (juice)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The reason is religion - if God says it's a sin, you have to be able to be held accountable, so it must be your choice. It cannot be the way you were born, or a disease you're affected by.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what about people who have no faith in a god of some sort? (Don't connect a lack of faith to a reason for wanting to suicide... I have no faith in any god as I'm not religeous, but I have no intentions of ending things )<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-juice+Jun 8 2004, 09:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (juice @ Jun 8 2004, 09:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is a reason so many people misunderstand suicide as a fully accountable choice rather than the result of the disease that is depression... The reason is religion...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking about the reason for misunderstanding suicide, not the reason for suicide.
But, I do think that certain religions tend to prevent suicide, among other qualities that make religion useful/beneficial to "survival". Like the kosher advice "don't eat pig you'll get sick and die cause it rots and gets bacteria/worms in it easily."
People kill themselves when they can't cope anymore; it's NOT because they are cowards, or because they don't believe in god. And I seriously believe that anyone opposed to this view simply doesn't understand the suicide mentality, or is prevented from understanding it by their religion.
I think instead if possible people should work to correct the societal factors which induce suicide.
i love my life so much and i try to value every waking moment as if it's the last i'll have. i love people, and food, and games, and love, and sex, and food, and adventure, and drama, and violence, and peace, and... prett much everything.
i really just don't understand it.
1.) Clinical Depression
2.) Life makes you depressed though many hardships, and you lose the will to live.
#1 is a disease, and can be treated with medication, and #2 is often times the hardest form of depression to combat, and no amount of medication will make you feel better.
A good example of #2 is when you are 80 years old, your spouse dies, and the other one soon dies because they litterally lose the will to live, and they fade away.
Or if a mother loses her only son, and dies of greif.
Whether you consider suicide itself to be right or wrong, it is always a waste nonetheless. If you ever do become depressed, one must always find hope within themselves to continue on.
I do not think the ns forums, even the discussion forum, is a place to have a discussion like this because most ns-forumites don't realize that a large amount of care is needed for every single word one posts when discussing a topic like this. To give you an example, the way certain people have written down their opinions in the off-topic forum thread and in this thread would have gotten them permanent bans in "suicide forums" (i.e. forums for people with suicidal thoughts who seek help, guidance or comfort).
I will probably come to regret posting my opinion on the matter here, yet I think it might serve some purpose. You may quote, bash or mock any of the content in this post if you feel the need to do so, I am not planning to check back on the further development of this thread.
This isn't a plea, nor is it a lecture, it is simply my personal opinion on this matter which I feel should be added to this thread.
Suicide is a tricky, if not the trickiest subject that can be discussed. What is known as "suicide", "committing suicide" and "suicidal tendencies" to name but a few, is hard to explain to "outsiders". It's my firm belief that if one has never had suicidal thoughts, suicidal feelings or perhaps even attempted to commit suicide, one simply cannot understand this "thought process".
If you are one of those people that doesn't have any personal experience with the matter at hand, count yourself a lucky person. Seriously, because it's not a very enjoyable experience. Be it due to your religion, personal beliefs, personal philosophies or life experience, if you do not understand or "believe" in suicide and related matters, then enjoy the fact that you don't. I hope you may never change and cling to those beliefs. Even if it's your opinion that committing suicide is an act of "weakness", hold on to that belief, because it will protect you from ever having to feel the way people whom have indeed committed suicide have felt. Enjoy your life every day, count yourself lucky with the material things you possess, be thankful for friends, family and a care-free life.
However, there are a lot of people that aren't able to understand how some people can think of issues in life so lightly, how others can enjoy it so much. Very much like how the "happy" people might not grasp the "reasoning" behind someone committing suicide. It is nigh indescribable, and quite pointless in my opinion, to "explain" suicide or suicidal thoughts to people who have no personal experience with it. Running a marathon in a desert carrying a tonne of equipment and without any water might be a metaphore that comes somewhere close to describing it. It's hard and tiresome, it utterly exhausts you up till a certain point where you'd just wish you could lay down and simply not run any longer...
Suicide or suicidal thoughts are a very personal matter. Every person that has ever committed suicide has probably had their very own specific reason to resort to suicide. A last resort. A last hope to escape from the strain they had to endure every single day. The endless stream of desperate thoughts running through their minds every single minute of the day. It's something that can completely overtake you if you let it. People committing suicide have one thing in common though.
Leaving behind loved ones. Family, relatives, friends, acquaintances. When a person commits suicide they leave behind a gaping hole in the lives of numerous people. A wound that will never stop hurting. An endless pit filled with questions of "Why?" and "What if...?". Yet people who have committed suicide often did not realize this. When one has suicidal thoughts, you mostly feel alone. Alone, desperate, helpless, and often even angry. It can feel like there is no one in the world who feels the way you do, no one who will understand you and definitely no one who can help you. Very often so, loved ones of someone who committed suicide never realized that this person was feeling so badly or had such thoughts at all.
In my opinion this could very well possibly be because of shame. Just like self-injurers often hurt themselves in places that are covered by their clothing, so no one can see their wounds. Perhaps they think no one can understand the way they feel, maybe they'll get mocked by the people in their environment, everyone has their own reasons.
No one is asking you to understand someone committing suicide, no one is asking you to show compassion, no one is asking you to sympathize... you should however <b>respect</b> his or her choice. This can be quite hard, yet if someone is to take his or her own life, the reason for it must be very dire indeed, so I feel respecting that choice is important.
The words "no one" have appeared quite often in this post. I wish <b>no one</b> would feel the need to resort to the last means of getting rid of the pain they endure by committing suicide, yet sadly a lot of people do. Each day, in every country, often by the people you'd least expect it from and the people that will be missed the most.
Take even just one second to think about this piece of rambling, look out of the window, think of the people you care about, think of the people that care about you and be happy that you're alive.
Wub.
Like everlasting chronically pain and such conditions. Most people can be helped to feel better and if they can be helped it's a waste to kill oneself even though you might not see an end. I guess that sums my opinion up..
This isn't a suicide forum. It's not full of people looking to help themselves.
Talking about how the onos should be nerfed would probably get you banned from a serious astronomy forum.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If only i could do the same.
- People are often shy and are actually afraid of other people.
- Some people hate food because of a poor self image. They see eating as a weakness and often develop eating disorders such as anerexia (sp). This is especially noticed in women, always trying to look like a super model, which is often unattainable.
- Some simply do not find love, there are billions of people in this world, you should consider yourself lucky if you find the one person for you. Others found love but are driven away from their love... either by death, or through divorce or a breakup.
Its great that you enjoy life so much, but it simply is not the case for others.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zig+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i really just don't understand it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I hope for your sake you never do.
Talking about how the onos should be nerfed would probably get you banned from a serious astronomy forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don’t know that. Maybe this topic is a way for people to reach out and ask for help. Maybe this could be a place for them in the NS community that lets them know that A) they’re not alone, and B) We’re willing to listen and be there for them.
We’re not in a serious astronomy forum, but talking about how the onos should be nerfed would probably get locked in the discussions forum. You have your opinion, and I respect that… but do you have to be so harsh about it?
Every action that you make affects others, no mater how simple or thoughtless it could be. That is why I might suggest you choose your words wisely when discussing something like Suicide in a public forum.
I don’t really have an opinion on suicide. But I do want to throw out there that if anyone ever feels alone or needs to talk – I am here. Nobody deserves to feel isolated or depressed.
I always considered suicide as the weak option, myself being a person who has endured almost every other type of abuse except parental and sexual. I've learned from my experiences and have become somewhat jaded, being able to go over bad things happening to me by just thinking "well, this **** occurs to me all the time, what's so different now?". However, when my friend passed away, I was forced to understand that there are things beyond our control that have such a profound effect on our lives, that it is impossible for me to see a suicide as the termination of a weak personality, whereas a stronger one could have gotten over the events/feelings leading to the contemplation of death. Recounting the events is not an easy process for me, and might also be hard for the reader, but here we go:
In April 2004 a girl in her twenties disappeared from my home city. She was last seen heading towards the harbour. Her flatmate called me three days later asking if I had seen her. I had not, nor had anyone else I knew. Two weeks later I was told that she had been found.
In April 2004 a girl walked off a cliff into the sea. She went under, and held herself below the surface until she drowned. Two weeks later her washed ashore body was found by a bypasser.
Her flatmate called me when I was at work. I had already guessed that she would not be found alive, but the news still broke me. Shuddering, weak, and fighting tears behind the shop counter I called my employer and asked if he could come earlier tonight to let me off. He didn't ask why, but apparently heard from my voice that everything was not fine, and agreed to come. When he arrived, I told him what had happened, namely: my ex-girlfriend disappeared two weeks ago and was found today - dead. He told me it was more than okay if I went home and took as much time off as I needed.
Sitting on my computer room that night, I went through all possible reasons for her to have done what she did. Meanwhile, my stereo played a certain song from the Donnie Darko soundtrack on repeat.
<i>"I find it kind of funny, I find it kind of sad,
The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had.
I find it hard to tell you, I find it hard to say,
when people run in circles it's a very, very mad world."</i>
Some days later a man I knew called me and asked if I could see him. He was an acquaintance of both me and the poor, dead girl, and I knew the two had been close for some time before her demise. I agreed to go to his place and talk. It turned out that I had been puzzling over her reasons in vain, the answer had been in front of me all the time.
When I arrived at the man's house, he greeted me warmly like an old friend, even though we had only met a few times. The reason for this greeting became clear later: He thought of me as an equal, one of the few persons who had truly cared about her and tried to help her. It seems that she had told him quite a lot about her relationship with me, and I have to say I was flattered that her words had been mostly appraising.
We talked about her and ourselves, and found quickly that by deconstructing what our relationships with her had been, and adding to it her open diary she had written of her past life, a literary undertaking urged by him to help her better understand herself - and maybe to help him understand her too, we quickly pieced together the puzzle. The picture that the little pieces formed nearly made us retch.
Bad things happen to people, but the worst things always happen to those who do not know how to shield themselves against them. We both knew her sexual behaviour was deviant; not perverse, just irrational and somewhat nymphomanical. One always believes that sexuality is something everyone can control, except for the pathologically or criminally insane individuals. However, it seems that big enough dents too early in the armor of identity can bend the whole personality, causing behaviour that doesn't in the person's mind seem wrong, but rather fun.
In her life, she had had numerous relationships, mostly sexual ones possibly involving a friendship. It appeared that only the three persons with whom she had had a long-time relationship genuinely loved her. The pattern was clear, the other men had only seen in her an easy way to satisfy their urges, or had also been weak of character in that spot, like her. I only ever met a few men she had had something going on with, and they all struck me as total rag dolls, not capable of controlling their lives, going wherever it was easy to go and following opportunities. This may seem like badmouthing, but it is actually a rather honest, if harsh an account. To be honest, when I was with her, I always felt like there were a few people just following our goings, envious that I tried to protect her from herself (though I have to admit I didn't know then that I should have been even more resolute - I just didn't see the whole picture back then).
It all started with a rape. Rape is a harsh word, but suitable, even though it is only classified as a statutory one. When she was thirteen, she joined a medieval theatrical/handiwork/reconstruction group. In that group were weak men following only their desires, and seeing a young child who wanted to act mature gave them all sorts of ideas. One of them took that one critical step too far. An older man, pretending to be an example, being a doorway into the acceptance of the group, managed to convince her that it would be okay if they got close, and why would a 13-year old wanting to be an adult know different? How could she have known his intentions were purely predatory?
She told me the story years later one night, when she broke down crying. I listened to the disjointed account, trying to make a head and tail of it. She never mentioned a name. Had she done so, someone's house would have burnt down that night. You just dont do things like that to a girl and get away with it.
Starting from there things went rapidly downwards. Suffice to say that when I met her, and she decided that being with me was a better choice than what she had had prior to meeting me, she broke a five-year pattern of random sexual relationships. Imagine what it does to a teenager's psyche when she sees that she can have any man she wants, but fails to see that the men don't quite see it that way. To them she was just an object.
Our eventual breakup was caused by her reversion to her old behaviour. We stayed friends, and later on she lamented that she had destroyed our relationship. She claimed she had learned things and would never again do what she did. Unfortunately, her instinct was stronger.
Apparently, her behaviour slowly caused her to feel self-loathing again, something that she had been feeling alot prior to meeting me. It appears she hated what she did, but could not stop herself. I can only imagine what it does to a person when they are conscious about their self-abuse, yet unable to prevent or stop it. It ate her hollow.
Now, I think that maybe if I had stayed with her despite what she did to me, I could have helped her. Maybe staying with her would have been the show of unconditional love she required. Maybe it wouldn't have done anything and I'm just thinking wishfully.
I don't know what to make of all this. I'm no saint, yet seeing what kind of people she had been subjected to I almost feel like one. Maybe I'm angry at her for not seeking help. Maybe I understand her and accept her choice. I've only learnt one thing: My life is useless. It has had no purpose so far and serves no-one. I want to help people, and in doing so maybe lift the feeling of uselessness from myself. The only thing this episode has confirmed is my metaphysical view that people cannot die and go to hell, because we are already there. The only thing left to do is to use your life to try and build this hell into a mirror image of heaven. I don't know how, but I want to try.
If there's nothing else to be learned from here, then understand this:
Children are not tools. Children are not objects of desire or easy opportunities. Some things you do to children may destroy their lives completely, and they are never developed enough to understand what really happened. Now, can you look in the mirror and say "I'm clean"? I don't know if I can.
There is a rose floating on the surface somewhere, following in the wake of her scattered ashes. I'm sorry I wasn't there at the wake. No. I'm sorry I wasn't there. I hope you can forgive me.
This is the worst post of my life. This is the single most important thing I've ever written.
I haven't decided yet.
PM me if you ever need to talk
Talking about how the onos should be nerfed would probably get you banned from a serious astronomy forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don’t know that. Maybe this topic is a way for people to reach out and ask for help. Maybe this could be a place for them in the NS community that lets them know that A) they’re not alone, and B) We’re willing to listen and be there for them.
We’re not in a serious astronomy forum, but talking about how the onos should be nerfed would probably get locked in the discussions forum. You have your opinion, and I respect that… but do you have to be so harsh about it?
Every action that you make affects others, no mater how simple or thoughtless it could be. That is why I might suggest you choose your words wisely when discussing something like Suicide in a public forum.
I don’t really have an opinion on suicide. But I do want to throw out there that if anyone ever feels alone or needs to talk – I am here. Nobody deserves to feel isolated or depressed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that this in the discussions forum I guarentee you anyone seeking advice will get this locked or a temp ban for hijacking or something