Fix 2 Exploits Easily

fanatic · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Jun 11 2004, 11:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GunFodder. @ Jun 11 2004, 08:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> It's a problem linked to the Quake1 engine that HL is built upon. I think it's near impossible to fix, as someone probably would've because it is foolish as hell.

I'm all for limiting jumping. It would only prevent being able to jump as soon as you hit the ground. You still would be able to jump often and get to ledges and ontop of boxes. It would really help level the playing field, which is the real problem for NS pub play.

Skulk speed would need to be buffed a bit though. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
It is very much possible to fix, SoylentGreen has even written a fix for it.
A lot of people in this thread fail to see that Flayra WANTS bhoping in the game, and therefore wont remove it.

In normal HL you cant bhop faster than 170% of your base speed, in NS however, Flayra removed that limit.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
That's not true at all. There's a limit to how fast you can bunnyjump at around 520
mph (or whatever measuring unit HL uses, just use cl_showspeed 1 with sv_cheats
1 to see for yourself).

Seph_Kimara · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Jun 11 2004, 10:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GunFodder. @ Jun 11 2004, 08:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> It's a problem linked to the Quake1 engine that HL is built upon. I think it's near impossible to fix, as someone probably would've because it is foolish as hell.

I'm all for limiting jumping. It would only prevent being able to jump as soon as you hit the ground. You still would be able to jump often and get to ledges and ontop of boxes. It would really help level the playing field, which is the real problem for NS pub play.

Skulk speed would need to be buffed a bit though. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
It is very much possible to fix, SoylentGreen has even written a fix for it.
A lot of people in this thread fail to see that Flayra WANTS bhoping in the game, and therefore wont remove it.

In normal HL you cant bhop faster than 170% of your base speed, in NS however, Flayra removed that limit.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Flayra didn't remove the limit, he just removed the drop to normal momentum once you exceed max speed, so you can keep bouncing along happily.

semipsychotic · June 2004

I would assume the only reason Flayra would want bunnyhopping is because of game balance. Possibly, the only way to properly fix it would be to tackle it when work starts on NS2 from the ground up.

Now that I think about clan strategy (as opposed to the public servers I regular on) I see that it might wreck quite a bit of the balance to take out the hopping.

Skyrage · June 2004

I haven't read every single post here, but...we are talking about marine bunnyjumping now are we? I mean, skulks are pretty much supposed to jump around like crazy and dodge and so on...

Just a tad confused now <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

Seph_Kimara · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Skyrage @ Jun 11 2004, 03:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I haven't read every single post here, but...we are talking about marine bunnyjumping now are we? I mean, skulks are pretty much supposed to jump around like crazy and dodge and so on...

Just a tad confused now <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
no, we're talking about bunnyhopping. A "feature" of NS that isn't explained ingame or in the manual, which is moderate to hard to learn without the aid of a +3jumps script or mousewheel, which allows you to move (as a kharaa only, mind you) up to 170% faster than normal. Generally viewed as "highend skill", and seems to be a major influence in balance decisions.

What you refer to is marine crackbouncing.

fanatic · June 2004

300 (base skulk speed) * 1,7 (max attainable speed modifier) = 510.

It's possible to reach a higher speed than that, but it's impossible to keep that speed constant.

Forlorn · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CheesyPeteza @ Jun 11 2004, 12:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Explain in more detail how this quake jumping worked? I never really played it much.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Quake jumping worked like this:

You hit jump when you are in the ground. You jump. Lets say, while you are MID AIR, you hit the jump key again, you will automatically jump as soon as you hit the ground, as long as you sent in the +jump command.

If you still can't understand what I'm saying CheesyPasta, go DL Quake 1 for free somewhere and just see for yourself! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

UKchaos · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I would assume the only reason Flayra would want bunnyhopping is because of game balance. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I suspect it has more to do with appealing to the clan players. Flayra has wanted NS to be big in the competitive scene. Maybe he fears a complete removal of bunnyhopping would upset the hardcore contingent.

If im wrong, id love to see a quote from him regarding the subject.

Seph_Kimara · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 11 2004, 05:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CheesyPeteza @ Jun 11 2004, 12:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Explain in more detail how this quake jumping worked? I never really played it much. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Quake jumping worked like this:

You hit jump when you are in the ground. You jump. Lets say, while you are MID AIR, you hit the jump key again, you will automatically jump as soon as you hit the ground, as long as you sent in the +jump command.

If you still can't understand what I'm saying CheesyPasta, go DL Quake 1 for free somewhere and just see for yourself! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I actually like that idea more than my own, now I think about it. If wallwalk is also disabled automatically when you do so, we're on to a winner here.

CheesyPeteza · June 2004

Umm some people are talking about removing bunny hopping. In no way am I suggesting that this be done. I am simply suggesting a way to remove the artificial methods used to bunny hop, which I assume Flayra wants to do as he removed _special.

Lt_Hendrickson · June 2004

Flaya does also realize lots of competitive clanners also hate bunny hopping right?

Forlorn · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Seph Kimara @ Jun 11 2004, 01:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 11 2004, 05:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CheesyPeteza @ Jun 11 2004, 12:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Explain in more detail how this quake jumping worked? I never really played it much. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Quake jumping worked like this:

You hit jump when you are in the ground. You jump. Lets say, while you are MID AIR, you hit the jump key again, you will automatically jump as soon as you hit the ground, as long as you sent in the +jump command.

If you still can't understand what I'm saying CheesyPasta, go DL Quake 1 for free somewhere and just see for yourself! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I actually like that idea more than my own, now I think about it. If wallwalk is also disabled automatically when you do so, we're on to a winner here.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
No. It could not disable the wall code because you would be unable to jump onto walls, a serious hindrince.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Flaya does also realize lots of competitive clanners also hate bunny hopping right?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

These people are commanly referred to either stubborn, or noobs, inside of the clan scene. I am not trying to be offensive at all when I say this.

Seph_Kimara · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 11 2004, 08:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> No. It could not disable the wall code because you would be unable to jump onto walls, a serious hindrince. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I should have elaborated. If It disables wall walk if you hit the jump key the 2nd time (ie. in the air) and resets after the next jump (which would be the auto bhop), then you still could jump onto walls, even while bunnyhopping (just don't hit jump in the air when you want to latch onto the wall)

Not entirely sure how hard to code THAT would be, but it'd definitely make it more intuitive.

Zek · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 11 2004, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> These people are commanly referred to either stubborn, or noobs, inside of the clan scene. I am not trying to be offensive at all when I say this.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Dare I ask why?

UKchaos · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> (Forlorn @ Jun 11 2004, 03:23 PM)
These people are commanly referred to either stubborn, or noobs, inside of the clan scene. I am not trying to be offensive at all when I say this.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Dare I ask why? </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Because clanners are commanly referred to either elistist, or arrogant, inside of the ns scene. I am not trying to be offensive at all when I say this.

Sorry, couldnt resist

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Uh-oh, time for the lock?
</span>

Turkey2 · June 2004

Though my bhop is not as pure and I dont quite get the speed boost that I've seen a true bhop do, I've never used a script or the mousewheel for it and it feels like second nature. It's not difficult to do. I've always been all for removing automated factors from things that require skill. It gives it a human element, so if you mistime your jump, then you probably are dead. Being able to time the jumps yourself should be part of the skill involved. Is it even possible to remove the possibility of automation either through scripts or hardware? Probably not, but I'd like to see it.

Forlorn · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jun 11 2004, 04:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 11 2004, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> These people are commanly referred to either stubborn, or noobs, inside of the clan scene. I am not trying to be offensive at all when I say this. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Dare I ask why?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Because there is not one clanner in a top 10 clan that does not like bhop.

Therefore, they are bad players; aka noobs.

SinSpawn · June 2004

I remember reading once in a sort of a changelog, it went something like this:-

'Marines will be slowed down when they jump, but for kharaa they can bunnyhop to their hearts contempt'

coris · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SinSpawn @ Jun 12 2004, 10:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> 'Marines will be slowed down when they jump, but for kharaa they can bunnyhop to their hearts contempt'  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Very true.

Lt_Hendrickson · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 12 2004, 02:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jun 11 2004, 04:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 11 2004, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> These people are commanly referred to either stubborn, or noobs, inside of the clan scene. I am not trying to be offensive at all when I say this. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Dare I ask why? </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Because there is not one clanner in a top 10 clan that does not like bhop.

Therefore, they are bad players; aka noobs.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
not true at all

Apocalypse · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt. Hendrickson @ Jun 12 2004, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 12 2004, 02:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jun 11 2004, 04:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 11 2004, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> These people are commanly referred to either stubborn, or noobs, inside of the clan scene. I am not trying to be offensive at all when I say this. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Dare I ask why? </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Because there is not one clanner in a top 10 clan that does not like bhop.

Therefore, they are bad players; aka noobs. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
not true at all  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Which part is not true? The first statement or the second or both?

UKchaos · June 2004

Clanners of the highest level <i>must</i> bunnyhop if they want that extra edge over their opponent. Dont assume just because you see them bunnyhop, its done out of choice.

Besides, wether they 'like' it or not isnt the issue. I love to bunnyhop, but ive considered the pros and cons and concluded that it doesnt fit in NS and should be replaced or removed.

You gotta be objective, not subjective.

Forlorn · June 2004

It adds skill and variation to skulking, rather than to let NS play itself out in a game of numbers.

How in the world is this a bad thing? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' />

UKchaos · June 2004

I dont see anyone disputing that point forlorn (apart from ns being a game of numbers unless skulks have bh - give me a break), but there are also negative aspects to bunnyhopping too.

Yes there good things about bunnyhopping, but the issue doesnt end there. Futher more, dont assume that everyone that wants bh out is a noob who doesnt appeciate skill. Its not Black or White like that, not much is.

TugBoat · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ Jun 10 2004, 08:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Because skulks moving in straight lines are so incredibly easy to hit and they move too slowly without it. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Celerity...

Let them keep bunnyhop's, only if Marines can have 'Cartwheels' spinning incredibly fast towards an alien with the skill ta shoot a shooty while Cartwheeling.... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' />

I think if you take it from one side, you should take it away from the other...

Celerity is powerful enuff for those good strafing Aliens.

ssjyoda · June 2004

BH should never be removed.. but it should be simplified for newcomers. I think the simplest thing would be what forlorn said bout quake jumping. This is exactly what most BH scripts do anyway. Its the mouse movement that really is the skill behind it.

If its meant to be a feature.. it shouldn't be something that you can only first learn from being told and explained. Impliment it properly, for everyone as a feature.

Forlorn · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UKchaos @ Jun 13 2004, 02:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I dont see anyone disputing that point forlorn (apart from ns being a game of numbers unless skulks have bh - give me a break),  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
No, you are quite wrong here

It is litterally impossible to kill good marines without bhop, and if bhop were to be removed then you'd need to buff out skulks speed and armor... which then means instead of having bouncing skulks flying around off walls, you'd only have a simple game of math where it would be totally easy to never miss a skulk and just keep your crosshair on skulks all day long, ones that can't variate their speed or direction quickly, and playing a skulk would suck even more; it would simply be waiting for the right time, hold down the "+forward" key and "+attack" key. No challenge, variation, or hell, anything

Lt_Hendrickson · June 2004

No it's not. I play with the best, kill the best, and absolutly refuse to bhop however do you know what is impossible? Killing a bunny hopping skulk in close quarter. Ever with 100% perfect you can't always drain enough bullets to kill a skulk. The speed increase is an unfair advantage. It's like celerity, only free.

ssjyoda · June 2004

thats y forlorn mentions quake jumping.. so its not an unfair advantage. BHing is part of ns.. always will be and will never leave. The problem with it is its far too hard for new players to do, and others are too stubborn to learn. Cause it is unfair. Making it fair, I think, will greatly help ns.. BH FOR ALL

UKchaos · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> BHing is part of ns.. always will be and will never leave.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

You could of easily said that about any of the numerous features removed since 1.0. Everything should be open to change.

Fix 2 Exploits Easily

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