European Racism
Marine0I
Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8639Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8639Members, Constellation
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">anti-semite, anti-US</div> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Europe errs in choice of foes
In raging against Israel and the US, Europeans are already forgetting how fascism and communisim were defeated, says Per Ahlmark.
Anti-semitism, anti-zionism and anti-Americanism are becoming ever more linked and ever more rabid in today's Europe. They arise from a kind of blindness, combined with a strange mixture of alienation, guilt and fear towards both Israel and the US.
Millions of Europeans resist seeing Israel as a country fighting for its survival. ISrael cannot afford to lose a single major war, as it would mean the end of the Jewish democratic state. But huge numbers of Europeans believe that something is fundamentally wrong with Israeli's: they never compromise; they prefer using military means to solve political problems.
Something similar is at work in the European attitude to the US. Look at Europe, many Europeans say: we have eradicated wars, dangerous nationalism and dictatorships. We created the peaceful European Union. We do not wage war; we negotiate. We do not exhaust our resources on weapons. The rest of the planet should learn from us how to live together without terrorising each other.
As a Swede, I have listened to such pacific boasting all my life: that neutral Sweden is the moral superpower. Now this bragging has become the EU's ideology. We are the moral continent. Call this the Swedenisation of Europe.
Yes, today's EU is a miracle for a continent where two modern totalitarian movements - communism and Nazism - unleashed rivers of blood. But what Europe forgets is how those ideologies were overcome. Without the US Army, western Europe would not have been liberated in 1945. Without the Marshall Plan and NATO, it would not have taken off economically. Without the policy of containment under the US security umbrella, the Red Army would have strangled the dream of freedom in easter Europe, or brought European unity, but under a flag with red stars.
West Europeans also foget that some areas of the world have never known freedom. In many places, torture chambers are the rules of the game, not the grotesque and shameful mistakes of ill-supervised troops. Any attempt in such places to behave the European way and negotiate - without the military power needed to back up diplomacy - would be pathetic.
Instead of supporting those who fight international terrorism, many Europeans try to blame the spreade of terrorism on Israel and the US. This is a new European illusion. Spain's latter-day appeasement a la Munich arise from this thinking.
But what if Spain - and Europe as a whole - had reacted in the opposite way to the Madrid train bombing of April, saying :"We promise that becuase of that slaughter we will double our support for stabilisation in Iraq by sending twice as many troops, experts, engineers, teachers, policemen, doctors and billions of euros in support of allied forces and their Iraqi co-workers"? The triumph of terrorism would have been transformed into a triumph on the war on terror.
The images many Europeans hold of the US and Israel create the political climate for some very ugly bias. You have the Great Satan and the Small Satan. The US wants to dominate the world - exactly the allegations made in traditional anti-Semite rhetoric about the Jews. Indeed, modern anti-Zionist rhetoric portrays Israel's goal as domination of the whole Middle East. Such ideas are reflected in opinion polls in which Europeans claim that Israel and the US are the true dangers to world peace.
British writer Ian Buruma claims that this European rage against the US and Israel has to do with guilt and fear. The two world wars led to such catastrophic carnage that "never again" was interpreted as "welfare at home, non-intervention abroad". The problem with this concept is that it could survive only under the protection of American might.
Extreme anti-Americanism and anti-Zionism are merging. The so-called peace poster "Hitler had two sons: Bush and Sharon", displayed at European anti-war rallies, combines trivialisation of Nazism with demonisation of both the victims of Nazism and those who defeated Nazism.
Much of this grows from a subconcious European guilt related to the Holocaust. Now the Holocaust's victims - and their children and grandchildren - are supposedly doing what was done to them. By equating the murderer and the victim, we wash our hands.
This patter of anti-Zionism and anti-Americanism returns again and again. "The ugly Israeli" and "the ugly American" seem to be of the same family. "The ugly Jew" becomes the instrumental part of this defamation when so called neo-conservatives are blamed both for US militarism and Israeli brutalities and then selectively named: Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Elliott Abrams, and so on.
This is a new version of the old myth that Jews rule the US.
Earlier this year, the editor of <i>Die Zeit</i> Josef Joffe, put his finger on the issue: like Jews, Americans are said to be selfish and arrogant.
Like Jews, they are in thrall to a fundamentalist religion that reders them self-righteous and dangerous. Like Jews, Americans are money-grubbing capitalists, for whom the higest value is the cash nexus.
"America and Israel are the outsiders - just as Jews have been all the way into the 21st century," Joffe says.
The links between anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism and anti-Americanism are all too real. Unless Europe's leaders roundly condemn this unholy triple alliance, it will poison Middle East politics and transatlantic relations alike.
Per Ahlmark is former deputy prime minister of Sweden.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read this article in the Weekend Australian, and I found it gave me confirmation of my recurring suspicion of European attitudes towards the Americans and the Jews. The only point I believe the author missed out was jealousy. A recent poll showed that 90% of Frenchmen thought it would be a good thing if the EU was as powerful as the US.
So lets hear it Euro's. All lies, or a little to close to the truth?
In raging against Israel and the US, Europeans are already forgetting how fascism and communisim were defeated, says Per Ahlmark.
Anti-semitism, anti-zionism and anti-Americanism are becoming ever more linked and ever more rabid in today's Europe. They arise from a kind of blindness, combined with a strange mixture of alienation, guilt and fear towards both Israel and the US.
Millions of Europeans resist seeing Israel as a country fighting for its survival. ISrael cannot afford to lose a single major war, as it would mean the end of the Jewish democratic state. But huge numbers of Europeans believe that something is fundamentally wrong with Israeli's: they never compromise; they prefer using military means to solve political problems.
Something similar is at work in the European attitude to the US. Look at Europe, many Europeans say: we have eradicated wars, dangerous nationalism and dictatorships. We created the peaceful European Union. We do not wage war; we negotiate. We do not exhaust our resources on weapons. The rest of the planet should learn from us how to live together without terrorising each other.
As a Swede, I have listened to such pacific boasting all my life: that neutral Sweden is the moral superpower. Now this bragging has become the EU's ideology. We are the moral continent. Call this the Swedenisation of Europe.
Yes, today's EU is a miracle for a continent where two modern totalitarian movements - communism and Nazism - unleashed rivers of blood. But what Europe forgets is how those ideologies were overcome. Without the US Army, western Europe would not have been liberated in 1945. Without the Marshall Plan and NATO, it would not have taken off economically. Without the policy of containment under the US security umbrella, the Red Army would have strangled the dream of freedom in easter Europe, or brought European unity, but under a flag with red stars.
West Europeans also foget that some areas of the world have never known freedom. In many places, torture chambers are the rules of the game, not the grotesque and shameful mistakes of ill-supervised troops. Any attempt in such places to behave the European way and negotiate - without the military power needed to back up diplomacy - would be pathetic.
Instead of supporting those who fight international terrorism, many Europeans try to blame the spreade of terrorism on Israel and the US. This is a new European illusion. Spain's latter-day appeasement a la Munich arise from this thinking.
But what if Spain - and Europe as a whole - had reacted in the opposite way to the Madrid train bombing of April, saying :"We promise that becuase of that slaughter we will double our support for stabilisation in Iraq by sending twice as many troops, experts, engineers, teachers, policemen, doctors and billions of euros in support of allied forces and their Iraqi co-workers"? The triumph of terrorism would have been transformed into a triumph on the war on terror.
The images many Europeans hold of the US and Israel create the political climate for some very ugly bias. You have the Great Satan and the Small Satan. The US wants to dominate the world - exactly the allegations made in traditional anti-Semite rhetoric about the Jews. Indeed, modern anti-Zionist rhetoric portrays Israel's goal as domination of the whole Middle East. Such ideas are reflected in opinion polls in which Europeans claim that Israel and the US are the true dangers to world peace.
British writer Ian Buruma claims that this European rage against the US and Israel has to do with guilt and fear. The two world wars led to such catastrophic carnage that "never again" was interpreted as "welfare at home, non-intervention abroad". The problem with this concept is that it could survive only under the protection of American might.
Extreme anti-Americanism and anti-Zionism are merging. The so-called peace poster "Hitler had two sons: Bush and Sharon", displayed at European anti-war rallies, combines trivialisation of Nazism with demonisation of both the victims of Nazism and those who defeated Nazism.
Much of this grows from a subconcious European guilt related to the Holocaust. Now the Holocaust's victims - and their children and grandchildren - are supposedly doing what was done to them. By equating the murderer and the victim, we wash our hands.
This patter of anti-Zionism and anti-Americanism returns again and again. "The ugly Israeli" and "the ugly American" seem to be of the same family. "The ugly Jew" becomes the instrumental part of this defamation when so called neo-conservatives are blamed both for US militarism and Israeli brutalities and then selectively named: Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Elliott Abrams, and so on.
This is a new version of the old myth that Jews rule the US.
Earlier this year, the editor of <i>Die Zeit</i> Josef Joffe, put his finger on the issue: like Jews, Americans are said to be selfish and arrogant.
Like Jews, they are in thrall to a fundamentalist religion that reders them self-righteous and dangerous. Like Jews, Americans are money-grubbing capitalists, for whom the higest value is the cash nexus.
"America and Israel are the outsiders - just as Jews have been all the way into the 21st century," Joffe says.
The links between anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism and anti-Americanism are all too real. Unless Europe's leaders roundly condemn this unholy triple alliance, it will poison Middle East politics and transatlantic relations alike.
Per Ahlmark is former deputy prime minister of Sweden.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read this article in the Weekend Australian, and I found it gave me confirmation of my recurring suspicion of European attitudes towards the Americans and the Jews. The only point I believe the author missed out was jealousy. A recent poll showed that 90% of Frenchmen thought it would be a good thing if the EU was as powerful as the US.
So lets hear it Euro's. All lies, or a little to close to the truth?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
It sounds a lot like American opinion of the Middle East after 9/11: despite the fact that almost every hijaker was a Saudi, we invaded Afghanistan, and if you ask people, even now, they'll say 'Oh well those Afghanis and Iraqis bombed us.' Instead of thinking for themselves, they see what their neighbor John is doing and decide 'Oh well it's cool to hate something', instead of realizing how utterly stupid it is.
The USA has a per capita GDP of $37,600. All of Europe has a GDP of $20,953.28 (The UK is around $25.5k per person.) So America is vastly richer then Europe (For comparison, Spain's GDP is slightly more then the European average, and New Zealand is a little below). With so much more money, why on earth do the Europeans dare to complain about American arrogance and pass us all off as lazy? A not-so-recent survey around the world found out the Americans are actually the hardest working people on the planet - With more hours put in, more overtime, more weekend work, and fewer breaks on average then any other country. Even the Japanese work less, and it's common to have hour-breaks, etc.
Of course a richer country is going to look lazier. Look at Ethiopia (GDP per capita of around $730). Are we a bunch of lazy bums to them? Of course, we don't have to walk a mile with a jug of water on our head. We're lazy, we don't wash our clothes between two rocks with our bare hands.
You want to talk about arrogance, Europe, take a good long look in the mirror. The kettle may be black, but the pot could use a cleaning just as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We created the peaceful European Union. We do not wage war; we negotiate. We do not exhaust our resources on weapons. The rest of the planet should learn from us how to live together without terrorising each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never heard that said by any one - I've lived in England since I was extremely young. Yes there is racism, facism, elitism and lots of other -ism's, but tell me a country where there isn't?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->'What the hell has EUROPE done for the world in the past century, aside from start 2 world wars, and ask others to end it for them?'<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One was started by the Nazi's, not "europe" - not as if we wanted it to happen - didn't do any one any good.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A not-so-recent survey around the world found out the Americans are actually the hardest working people on the planet - With more hours put in, more overtime, more weekend work, and fewer breaks on average then any other country<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
source? how do the hours of work compare to the living conditions. and to the salery for said hours of work. what about over-time saleries... vast number of things to consider. saying "we work harder than you" is a fairly substantial generalisation.
I've just gotten used to the rest of the world not liking the United States. I just chalk it up to the nationalism version of **** envy.
People might say things like "But even your own people don't agree with what GWB does." To that, I say that they're hippies. These are the same people that do things like register to vote. I think that a substantial portion of the nation agree with what's going on, but don't care enough to vocalize.
I saw a Lewis Black comedy special on HBO recently that totally made it all make sense. The following is a rough quote of what he said, done from two week old memory.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
America is the greatest nation on the planet. The problem is that we let everyone else know it all the time.
It's like that jackass at work that comes in every morning and says "I'm better than all of you put together. None of you can even come close to what I'm doing." And it's not that he's wrong, but nobody likes to be reminded of that every single morning of every single day.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, yeah, I know I butchered that Lewis Black quote, but that's generally what he said.
Sweden.
I can't say anything about the european scene but in my opinion. Jews are like all other people on this worlds, they are greedy and mean. And when you say that to them they get all wild. "Your an Anti-semitism" "Your a Nazi"
It's just stupid what they are doing down there in the middleeast, I'm getting tired of that conflict. I wish someone just blew it all up for good.
I have nothing against americans. I support the war in Iraq and the war on terrorism.
Remember , europe is not one country. It's a bunch of them, alot of diffrent cultures, language and politics. It's not that easy to make it work without difficulties.
Why do we have this stupid shadow over us anyway. There was a guy who said the right things to the right people at the right time. And he made it big time. Why don't people cast a shadow over africa and asia. They just had as much genocides as the rest of the world. Even more people involved.
One of the reasons europe haven't had a front figure for 30years is becuase we had a war, a war which made it all fall apart and devided europe in 2. The US made it without THAT much lost. The US diden't get bombed and then became one communist- and one democratic side.
Americans is not the hardest working people on this planet <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Let's put it like this. I heard the americans were the most FAT and LAZY people on this planet. Spending more time infront of the TV and MacDonalds.
I saw that 'Americans hardest working' long ago (might have been 2 years...) on CNN, did some research, found this, which while it supports Australia more, I sure as hell don't see Europe anywhere on that list.
<a href='http://www.business-opportunities.biz/archives/2004/05/01/5398.php' target='_blank'>http://www.business-opportunities.biz/arch.../05/01/5398.php</a> Have to link it from there, because if you trace back to Reuters they took the page down.
<a href='http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=2024&art_id=qw108340200145B223&set_id=1' target='_blank'>http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=20...45B223&set_id=1</a>
Another one
Blanket assumptions are not going to hold any water.
I also don't appreciate "anti-Isreal" or "pro-Palsetinian" being smeared as "anti-Semite". Is there anti-Semitism/anti-Americanism/general xenophobia in the UK? Sure. There is in every country. However, there's a reason the BNP are regarded as unhinged loonies (besides the fact that they <i>are</i>) - it's the fact that basing policies on race etc. is disgusting.
I can't find any polls on the subject, sadly; but I suspect that if you asked most Brits while they were hooked up to a truth-telling machine, "If you dissaprove of Isreal's style of politics, do you do so based on their aggession or their race?", most people would choose the former. You don't get anywhere by attacking and counter-attacking and counter-counter-attacking (etc. etc. ad infinitum).
We really shouldn't rely on a countries past to much, every country has a bad history, we've all killed loads of people, thats human nature.
I'm not even going to start arguing, I'm just going to say every country has its faults and this thread should probably locked if it carries on the way it is.
Edited because the last sentance could have been misconstrued, I wasn't clear enough
45% opposed war, with or without UN mandate;
40% opposed war without UN mandate, but supported with UN mandate;
9% were for war, mandate or not.
60% believed that Blair didn't make a good case for WMD existing.
Maybe if Blair didn't assume we're all stupid, and put some effort into making a case, more people would have supported it. I know I felt as though he was playing me for a chump. We'll never know for sure.
This was 13 Feb, 2003. I couldn't find a later date - the Telegraph.co's search engine is terrible.
(Link: <a href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/02/13/nirq113.xml' target='_blank'>here</a>.)
EDIT: A nice little article <a href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/02/22/weur22.xml' target='_blank'>here</a> about what happened when Chirac made some inappropiate comments (22nd Feb). If Europe was as one-minded as is claimed, the shift in support would not have happened. Not only that, but a generalisation of "one Europe" usually overlooks old grievences - like <a href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/01/03/weu03.xml' target='_blank'>this</a> which probably caused <a href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/main.jhtml?xml=/education/2003/03/04/tehGwkais13.xml' target='_blank'>this</a>.
<i>Edits: my god, the typos. The typos!</i>
Basically as some have pointed out already, trying to sum up the opinions of 'The Americans', 'The Isrealis', and 'The Europeans' is just a vast over simplification.
People cannot be catagorised by such large divisions, especially when all these devisions are based from 'free nations' (by which i mean freedom of information).
People will believe what they wish to believe, there is no European way of thinking, and if there was it would have to be some very moderate average.
I want to make one point very clear though, I think the people around the world today are less concerned with what America did 60 years ago, and are more focused on America's current actions.
im talking about America the nation, not the American people here.
Its just not logical that people would allow America to do what it wants, just because of its past actions, without some kind of criticism or 'anti-Americanism' arising.
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anyway, heres a few mildly off topic things from the original text that bothered me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In many places, torture chambers are the rules of the game, not the grotesque and shameful mistakes of ill-supervised troops<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe its been shown that the Abu Gharib incident had substantial CIA approval/ backing/ involvement, and as such I think the comment factually wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You have the Great Satan and the Small Satan. The US wants to dominate the world - exactly the allegations made in traditional anti-Semite rhetoric about the Jews.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course the US wants to dominate the world, didnt you read the PNAC? many of todays greatest thinkers see the war in Iraq as a declaration of domination, and a warning to any other nations who would oppose the might of the US, the age of the preemptive strike has brought about an America which feels no need to justifiy its domination within the methods and international laws which have sustained world peace for the last 60 years.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The triumph of terrorism would have been transformed into a triumph on the war on terror.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Terrorism and Iraq <b>are not the same thing</b>.
More over , past atrocities won't excuse today's "mistakes" and brutal methods. On the contrary , it is a shame that the US govt ignored similar past cases and chose to attack countries without international support. It was predictable the iraqis wouldn't like an US occupation after a while...
The link is clear - its Israel's fault that we have Muslim terrorists, or so sayeth the Europeans. The author is not automatically dismissing anyone who disagrees with Israeli policy as an anti-Semite, but he claims that both are becoming increasingly hard to discern between.
Snidely, I read that article you posted and I have to say I was thoroughly heartened. I had no idea that the Eastern European nations held that sort of appreciation of what the US did for them.
And even that article couldnt pass without comments like
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mr Nowakowski, an erstwhile student activist in the Solidarity free trade union movement, believes that, unless the EU drops its anti-Americanism, it will be overtaken by the emergence of a transatlantic free trade area integrating the developed western countries, including America and Canada.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The two big members of th EU, the French and the Germans, both have leaders that were swept to power on the back of largescale anti-American and anti-war sentiment. The Spanish experienced a similiar phenomena, the same is happening in Italy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->America which feels no need to justifiy its domination within the methods and international laws which have sustained world peace for the last 60 years.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you have methods and international laws confused with American military and economic clout. The UN isn't what has been fueling peace for the past 60 years. NATO (read Americans in Europe) kept Europe secure, NATO stared down the communists, whilst the UN was used as a jousting arena for the nations of the world, as each tried to get what was best for itself. That's where we got charming UN resolutions like the one equating Zionism with racism that lasted for the best part of 30 years.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Terrorism and Iraq are not the same thing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
False. Iraq is the new battlegrounds for terror. The might of the West is being pitted very directly against Islamic fundamentalism. A secular, democratic and free Iraq would be a disaster for hard line Muslim fanatics. It has also had the effect of drawing off terrorists from striking at America itself - why go overseas when there are plenty of infidel in Iraq? Defeating terrorism needs a broad based solution. You cannot carpet bomb terrorism into submission, you cant hurl money at the CIA and hope that counterintelligence will continue to detect every terrorist plot for the next million years. You have to take the fight over to where the rot is starting - and its starting in the Middle East.
To summarise the article, the author believes that anti-semitism, anti-zionism and anti-americanism are on the rise in Europe, and are becoming increasingly linked. He's definately not wrong about anti-zionism and anti-americanism, at least in some countries.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->More over , past atrocities won't excuse today's "mistakes" and brutal methods. On the contrary , it is a shame that the US govt ignored similar past cases and chose to attack countries without international support. It was predictable the iraqis wouldn't like an US occupation after a while... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No ones asking you to excuse it, we're just asking that you see it in context. Gathering together international support is impossible while Germany and France see fit to use the UN security council as their own personal jousting arena from which to oppose the US. The Americans hadn't even tabled their plan to attack Iraq and the French were promising to veto it. Considering the economic and political ties between Iraq and France, I dont find this terribly surprising. Nor was I surprised to discover that the rorting of the Food for Oil program had very strong links to French UN officials.
It was predictable that the iraqi's wouldnt like a US occupation after a while, yet they are getting their own government. Their children are back in school, freedom of the press is rife and productivity is nearly back up to normal. Of the thousands of cities in Iraq - only 3 have openly revolted, and even now the revolt leader is backing down and supporting the Iraqi Government.
False. Iraq is the new battlegrounds for terror. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, there is lots of terrorism taking place that isn't linked to Iraq at all. The closest one I can think of is all the trouble in Northern Ireland (although it seems to have quietened down... at least, I haven't heard anything about it for a while now).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anti-Semitism 'on rise in Europe'
Attacks against synagogues have been documented
Attacks against Jews in Europe have sharply increased, says a report by a European anti-racism watchdog.
The study singles out Belgium, France, Germany, the Netherlands and Britain, where it says the rise in anti-Semitism has been of particular concern.
Other countries, including Ireland and Portugal, showed little sign of any rise in attacks, the report says.
It identifies "young, disaffected white Europeans" as the key culprits followed by North African or Asian Muslims.
The report urges European states to co-operate more closely to fight racism.
It suggests school text books should be checked for bias and teachers trained to increase awareness of race issues.
Most Jewish people wish to be a recognised equal part of European societies and to live in good relationships with their neighbours
EUMC report
Publication of this latest report follows controversy over the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia's (EUMC) decision to shelve a similar study last year.
That led the heads of the World and European Jewish Congresses, Edgar Bronfman and Cobi Benatoff, to accuse European officials themselves of being anti-Semitic.
Anti-Jewish attacks ranged from hate mail to arson in the incidents catalogued by the EUMC in 2002 and the first quarter of 2003.
In the UK there were there were violent attacks on two synagogues in 2002 and in 2003 there were two cases of suspected arson and several attacks on Jewish cemeteries.
Debate
France's statistics suggested a "significant" rise in anti-Semitic violent incidents and threats in 2002 - six times as many as in 2001.
There were "many incidents of Jewish people assaulted and insulted, attacks against synagogues, cemeteries and other Jewish property, and arson against a Jewish school," the report said.
The report also highlights member states where there is little evidence of any increase in anti-Semitism - such as Ireland, Luxembourg, Portugal and Finland.
EUMC director Beatte Winkler said: "It is clear that anti-Semitism manifests itself with greater strength in some countries than in others, and where relatively reliable statistics are kept, there is evidence of an increase in the regularity of these incidents over the past two or three years.
"Such a conclusion is reached in the case of Belgium, Germany, France, the Netherlands and the UK.
"The aim of this report is to provide accurate data and information which can start a debate in Europe on how to counter anti-Semitism, and lead to effective policies across the Union."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This article seems to lend support to the first one - its not just guesswork and broad generalisations. Anyone else notice that there is a strong anti-war and anti-american sentiment in those countries specifically singled out by the report?
It would seem that this idea of EU anti-semitism isnt confined to Australian Newspapers:
<a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3561-2004Feb24.html' target='_blank'>Washington Post</a>
<a href='http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/03/14/the_cancer_of_anti_semitism_in_europe/' target='_blank'>boston.com</a>
<a href='http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/31/1080544562874.html?from=storyrhs&oneclick=true' target='_blank'>SMH</a>
<a href='http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29841' target='_blank'>Worldnetdaily</a>
I was also particularly impressed by this little quote which has a some very strong bearing on the discussion here:
<a href='http://www.adl.org/anti_semitism/as_eu_survey.asp' target='_blank'>Anti-Defamination League</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps most telling, 62 percent said they believe the outbreak of anti-Semitic violence in Europe is the result of anti-Israel sentiment, not anti-Jewish feeling. The contrariness of their own attitudes suggests that Europeans are loath to admit that hatred of Jews is making a comeback. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wanted comment on this a little. If they think it would be good if EU was as powerful as USA(it's a stupid question, of course everyone wants more power) it still doesn't mean that 90% of the french envy USA.
Anti-americanism comes from the recent actions of USA, and there's a whole lot of that going on in the USA itself and all around the world, so European countries are really not alone. Honestly I'm thinking the guy is writing out of his arse(the Swedenisation of Europe?) but I can't really say because I haven't been in every country of Europe, and hence I can comment only from my point of view here in Finland.
If you take the side of Palestinians, it doesn't mean you are anti-semite. It's about politics, not race. And it's not like there isn't any racism in Australia or USA or where ever. I'm kind of getting annoyed by the fact that the Jews are using their past to brand every pro Palestinian a raving anti-semitistic Nazi and hence his opinions are wrong. Seriously, not everyone has some hidden racial agenda.
And here in the end, I would like to remind you that Europe isn't one country. There are many countries in it. USA is part of America like France is part of Europe. Don't say "racism is on the rise in Europe" but instead "Racism is on the rise in France, Netherlands and whatyouhave."
PS. I think the people in Asia and Africa work hardest. Basically the less people work, the more advanced the country is and the more people work(just because they have to to get food), the poorer the country is. I like it in where I am and I wouldn't want to live in USA or anywhere else(well, maybe if I had a lot of money I would like to live in a warmer climate), and this is the case for most people in western countries, so comparing which country is best is just silly "my dad could beat your dad" attitude. Cut it out.
The recent and current tactics employed by both the US and Israeli governments are reprehensible, even if they are intended to preserve their citizens' way of life. Sometimes rather ineffectively. Any ire directed at them is at least somewhat founded. That is not the same as hating their citizens, or Jews in general, but some people are unable to differenciate.
I have to question whether Sharon is even sane. How can building a giant wall around your country possibly outweigh all the homes he's had to bulldoze (thus making his enemies all the more solidary). He certainly does not represent the best interests of his charges.
Also, terrorists will go wherever US soldiers go. Even if Iraq wasn't a hotbed of terrorism before the war (and I'm pretty sure that was the least of their problems), it is now. Whenever we finally leave, the terrorists will move on to another US target on foreign soil (where it is much more vulnerable), and resume the hunt.
People can disagree with what Israel is doing without hating jews. It just happens that it's a jewish country.
Who knows, I mean, maybe we will see a east/west euro divide caused solely by America?
Oh and Marine01, you are teh man
Anyway, Europe (IMO, in general, I'm not saying all europians...) see's the US as a bunck of lazy fat people who have a lot of money and like to wage war..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Americans is not the hardest working people on this planet Let's put it like this. I heard the americans were the most FAT and LAZY people on this planet. Spending more time infront of the TV and MacDonalds.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This supports the anti-americanism part... It's just another steriotypical peice of propoganda, this time aimed at america. Nomblie, have you ever been to the US? No? hmm... well untell then, don't go off what you've heard, ok?
But let's not forget that there is anti-europianism too... (me thinks of freedom fries...)
People just mistrust what they don't know, it's human nature.
That's not anti-europianism, that's anti-french.
It's like the same comparison as how being anti-redneck isn't necessarily anti-american.
You get a lot further doing that than bending over and appeasing aggressors. Israel is surrounded by nations that have been attacking it since its inception in 1948.
Come up with a better way of defending yourself against aggression than with aggression. Should they just let themselves be invaded or try to appease them by giving back areas like the Golan heights (again, which would lead to them being in prime artillery range, again)?
I would say while you might not get anywhere in particular, it keeps you in the same place and WITH a country.
An important distinction.
Incidently, this doesn't mean I approve of Israels actions, but I know enough to realise that moaning about "How mean they are using their military on those poor palistinians" is quite irrelevant. They do what they do because they have to in order to survive and maintain a semi secure state and country. If you were surrounded by enemies that wanted to destroy you, you'd probably begin to understand why they use their military too.
Again I stress that the author is NOT claiming anyone anti-Israel is anti-semite, he is just claiming that he's finding those two attitudes harder and harder to distinguish between. He sees a rise of anti-Americanism in some major EU countries, he sees a rise in anti-Zionism in some major EU countries - and then strangely enough he sees a rise in anti-semitism in some major EU countries, supported by studies on anti-Semite attacks in Europe. He then moves to suggest maybe the fact that they are all rising simultaneously means they are linked.
I certainly dont question Sharon's sanity. As Aegeri said, the Jews have been surrounded and fighting with hostile arab nations for half a century. It was all win win win until the Yom Kippur War of 1973, where the Egyptians launched a surprise attack on the Jews. <a href='http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/73_War.html' target='_blank'>1973</a>
That site I linked you to there is heavily pro-Zionist, and as such glosses over the fact that that suprise attack very nearly finished Israel off. The only thing that saved the Jews was the buffer regions provided by territory they had seized in 1967. These regions took time for the Egyptian army to penetrate, which allowed the Jews to mobilise their reserves and fight back. These regions they occupy they see as vital to their defence.
Now Sharon is doing something quite brave, and actually pulling out of some of these regions. He's also pulling settlers back out of Palestinian land and building a wall to ensure that the only palestinians that get into Israel are those that have passed through a military checkpoint. He is attempting to wash his hands of the Palestinians - and I can only sympathise with that. His idea - smash their homes to build a wall, and then let them rot without blowing us up. Not kind - but what other alternatives can you see? He doesnt care that bulldozing their homes will make them angrier - even if they stayed at the same level of anger they are at currently, Israel is still going to get bombed. A wall can help stop that.
That's not anti-europianism, that's anti-french.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That wasn't even anti-french, that was just Bush being a tad bit retarded. In case there are any Europeans out there who actually believed Americans hated the French enough to b4n them from our McDonald's menus....it was a JOKE throughout the nation, an absolute flop of a policy, parodied on SNL and many other comedy shows. Americans might have been resentful of the French, but the freedom fries thing wasn't an example of said resentment.
[edit] Oh yeah, [WHO]Them, my sig cool with you? [/edit]
Lets get things straight here people. The President is only 1/3 of the government. Everything the government does is not the fault of Bush. As such, I do not believe Bush's administration had anything to do with the Freedom Fries debacle. I do believe it was entirely in Congress's court.
But since when have the facts stopped anyone from blaming Bush recently?
That's not anti-europianism, that's anti-french.
It's like the same comparison as how being anti-redneck isn't necessarily anti-american. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lololol french are the rednecks of europe lololololol
Making a wall to protect themselves sounds like a good idea to me. They had to bulldoze homes that were specifically built to be used as <b>territory-gaining tools,</b> and in my mind Israel has nowhere to go but up in regards to terror attacks. So why not try a freakin wall. Hey, think of it this way: if they erect a wall, how are they going to bulldoze more crap? Making a wall to me is a peaceful step.
<b>Good fences make good neighbors.</b>
That is, if your neighbors keep bombing the hell out of your children's school buses... and if you assassinate one of their leaders, another just pops up in his place. And if your neighbors think that 100% of your property belongs to them. Not just some of it, 100%. Things cannot be solved by stopping violence. Israelis, even if they completely and totally cease all aggressive actions against palestinians, are still going to be perpetrators to them, because they're sitting on what palestinians believe is all their land. But where does Israel have to go? Into the sea? Things are not going to be resolved with a happy ending here. I think the best that can be done for all is to just put up a massive wall. Palestinians for starters want the holy city of Jerusalem, and they'll just keep bombing and bombing until they get it, unless they have an actual Palestinian state that can be held accountable for terrorism and actual peace negotiations can be made, and war can be declared, and so on. Until then they're just the poor palestinians who have nothing and blow themselves up and get killed by the supremacist israelis. But Israel is for damn sure not going to give up Jerusalem.
So this is what will happen.
Pessimist: The U.S. will continue to push for a Palestinian state. Israel will complete its wall. Palestinian state formed. Terrorist attacks continue but less than currently. A couple short years of less bloodshed pass. Then Palestine decides to rightfully reclaim what is theirs. Jerusalem, etc. They have backing from neighboring Islamic nations. And they attack Israel. U.S. sends in troops. Big war of Jesus and Jews vs. Allah. woo hoo fun times.
Optimist: The U.S. will continue to push for a Palestinian state. Israel will complete its wall. Palestinian state formed. Terrorist attacks continue but less than currently. Eventually peace negotiations between Israel and the new nation of Palestine will proceed and the terrorist generation will die and so will the hatred on both sides. They will live happily ever after.
Lets get things straight here people. The President is only 1/3 of the government. Everything the government does is not the fault of Bush. As such, I do not believe Bush's administration had anything to do with the Freedom Fries debacle. I do believe it was entirely in Congress's court.
But since when have the facts stopped anyone from blaming Bush recently? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
He took the job and he knows what comes with it. He's seen as the headguy by pretty much everyone, so he takes the blame. If a football team loses a match, the manager takes the blame, even though he had nothing to do with what went on on the field.
This supports the anti-americanism part... It's just another steriotypical peice of propoganda, this time aimed at america. Nomblie, have you ever been to the US? No? hmm... well untell then, don't go off what you've heard, ok? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh no, I'm so sorry. But this whole thread is about talking **** and make your continent look like the land of god. I just wanted to be a part of it.
I guess you forgot all those asian people doing 20h shifts in a small sweatshop or the people in Africa who carry water from 10km to their field all day long. Oh, and <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The OECD programme for international student assesment says that Finnish teenage schoolchildren perform better than any others in mathematics and reading.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Does that mean my dad is smarter than yours? No, it's just another meaningles statistic. And there is no such thing as unbiased person. No matter where you come from.
Reminder(to all):
a) This thread is not about Palestinian/Israel conflict and who is right and wrong. It's related to that, but not about it.
b) This is not about your dad or mine.
c) This is not about american or european stereotypes. It's about racism in Europe.