<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(Anti-semitism, anti-zionism) and anti-Americanism are becoming ever more linked and ever more rabid in today's Europe.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont see any anti americanism in Europe only a strong anti-Bush wave. Clinton was way more appreciated.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The images many Europeans hold of the US and Israel create the political climate for some very ugly bias. You have the Great Satan and the Small Satan.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the author has lived too much in US to make religious comparisons in European politics ...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Instead of supporting those who fight international terrorism, many Europeans try to blame the spreade of terrorism on Israel and the US.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would be glad if instead of just claming that, he actually proved it. That s just calomny until proven.
Seriously that article was completely and utterly baseless. The author based his whole analysis on 2 facts. He completely forgot to mention that s there is no anti Americanism but an Anti-Bushism which is cause by what happened in UN and the woefully poor communications between EU and US. He compares '45 with nowadays without even looking in between. That s an hardly professional method; he had better look 10 years ago instead of making wild assumtions over 50 years. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anti-zionism has of course more followers than in US, but that's because there is more Arabic people, that s all. And it is not as high as the author thinks it is.
And the Marshall Plan wasnt for the pretty eyes of Europe as the author seems to think, but it was an insurance for US that Europe wont join communism. It was self interested.
For me this article is complete propaganda, and is further more insulting by the way he doesnt verify what he implies. Where did you find it?
Fair enough Dread - I'll leave our respective parentage out of the conversation in future <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As for unbiased - I'm not claiming to be unbiased. I am a militant right wing fanatic, the modern day neo-conservative. I just happen to be from Australia, looking from the outside in to what I see as a problem with the EU presented to me in a series of articles outlining concerns over the apparent simultaneous spread of anti-Zionism, anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism.
So far, most people have responded with "that doesnt speak for all Europe, we just disagree with American/Zionist foreign policy etc" but as far as throwing down counter claims and linking me to actual proof, we've come up a little short. Which is fair enough, its really hard to prove you're NOT racist - for every 1,000,000 nice things you do to Israeli's, its the 1 thing you dont that everyone hears about.
However, attacks on Jews in the EU are UP. Several nations have/are banning kosher slaughter of animals. (I know its cheap to draw a connection between this and Nazi's, but banning kosher slaughter is one of the first things Hitler did in his anti-Semite campaign). The EU seems to overwhelmingly blame the US and the Israeli's for the rise of global terrorism, the peace protest movement has gained momentum/popularity and seems determined to paint both the US and Israel as evil.
From the outside looking in, that's pretty ugly stuff.
EDIT
Yeah thats right Draconis - the author got to be the deputy vice President of Sweden by spending too much time in America... Somehow I think he's spent just a little while there.
Those supposedly "baseless" accusations of blaming terror on the US and Israel come from a certain poll that was held recently in the EU that found 59% of EU people consider Israel the greatest threat to world peace, followed closely by the US
<a href='http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/04/1067708213036.html?oneclick=true' target='_blank'>EU doesnt seem to be disagreeing</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The European Commission has apologised to Israel for an opinion poll which found that Israel is the country most ordinary Europeans regard as the biggest threat to world peace.
Israeli leaders and international Jewish groups have angrily denounced the poll, saying European criticism of Israel is motivated by anti-Semitism.
In apparent agreement, the President of the European Commission, Romano Prodi, said the results "point to the continued existence of a bias that must be condemned out of hand".
"To the extent that this may indicate a deeper, more general prejudice against the Jewish world, our repugnance is even more radical," he said.
The present holder of the rotating European presidency, the Italian Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi, said he felt "surprise and indignation" and that the question had been "misleading".
Mr Berlusconi recently weathered a similar controversy after publicly denying that the Italian dictator Benito Mussolini played any role in the Holocaust. He was subsequently awarded a prize by the Jewish Anti-Defamation League for his support for Israel and the US.
Carried out as part of continuing surveys by the European Union, the telephone poll sampled 7500 respondents in all 15 EU member states.
Presented with the names of 14 countries, the respondents were asked if they regarded each in turn as a threat to world peace. The results showed 59 per cent of respondents agreed that Israel was the biggest threat to world peace. The US, Iran and North Korea came joint second with 53 per cent. Iraq came next with 52 per cent, followed by Afghanistan.
Libya, Saudi Arabia, China, India, Somalia, Russia, Syria and Pakistan all scored less than 50 per cent.
Palestine was not listed because, the EU says, it is not a country.
Meanwhile, on a visit to Russia, the Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, said he was prepared to meet the recently appointed Palestinian Prime Minister, Ahmed Qurie, to discuss the stalled "road map" for peace.
The Israeli Government froze contacts with the Palestinian Authority following the breakdown of a short-lived unilateral Palestinian ceasefire, saying it could not negotiate while the authority's chairman, Yasser Arafat - whom it accuses of terrorism - is still pulling the strings of power. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also love how you dismiss the Marshall plan as self interested. I suppose you also reckon that US military intervention in Europe in 1945 was self interested? Communism was fought against not only because it opposed US style capitalism, but because it was considered an "Evil Empire" ala Reagan - imagine everyones surprise when it turned out that it WAS an evil empire.
I cant help but think of a man trying to hitchhike a lift in the rain. Eventually a man stops, opens his door and this sopping wet guy plonks himself on the passenger side seat. "Where are you headed" he asks the driver. "To the city" is the reply. They start talking, and an hour later they arrive at the city. As he alights, the hitch-hiker offers "I really appreciate you giving me a lift". The driver replies "Hey, its was no trouble, I was on the way to the city anyway, and I enjoyed the company". The hitchhiker stops, stares at the driver and then blurts out "Lol, sod you you selfish newb, you did it all for yourself" and walks off into the city.
The US acts in what it percieves as its best interest, and what it percieves as its allies best interests. The emphasis is on the former - but the massive investment in lives and finances that secured America's allies when they were under threat cannot be ignored simply because it also served the US as well.
<!--QuoteBegin-Marine01+Jun 14 2004, 02:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Jun 14 2004, 02:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (...) outlining concerns over the apparent simultaneous spread of anti-Zionism, anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism.
Several nations have/are banning kosher slaughter of animals.
The EU seems to overwhelmingly blame the US and the Israeli's for the rise of global terrorism, the peace protest movement has gained momentum/popularity and seems determined to paint both the US and Israel as evil. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marine01, as it is for you so obvious, do what this author hasnt done and show me proof of what you are saying.
The "proofs" given here: <a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3561-2004Feb24.html' target='_blank'>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Feb24.html</a> are all misreadings of one-day news. How in hell can you judge anti-semitism to the influence a doubtful film make? As well as some scandals books, and the vague "facts".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marine01, as it is for you so obvious, do what this author hasnt done and show me proof of what you are saying. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Done, in the edit above. The author didnt bother to present his proof as that anti-zionist poll result is very well known world wide.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The "proofs" given here: <a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3561-2004Feb24.html' target='_blank'>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Feb24.html</a> are all misreadings of one-day news. How in hell can you judge anti-semitism to the influence a doubtful film make? As well as some scandals books, and the vague "facts".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He didnt judge anti-Semitism based around a single film. He drew together a collection of events, statistics and beliefs and arrived at a conclusion - anti-Semitism is growing in the EU. If you want to criticise that article, and I'm sure you can (heck in my brief skim of it I picked up 4-5 weaker points) - then you are going to have to do it the hard way and tackle it point by point, not dismissing the whole lot with a wave of your hand.
<!--QuoteBegin-Marine01+Jun 13 2004, 08:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Jun 13 2004, 08:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There may be no one set European opinion, but the trends are starting to show signs of anti-Americanism and anti-Zionism. Face it, terrorists attack the Americans, and the EU holds a poll that shows overwhelming amount of people consider ISRAEL to be the number one threat to world peace. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I won't deny that that poll was a bit scary in that regard. I'd be curious as to what would have come out if Palestine was included, but I guess we'll never know for sure.
The fact that there is no one European view doesn't mean there is no increase in anti-semitism, anti-Americanism, or both; it means that they're not necessarily linked.
That BBC article you linked to was interesting, but I don't suppose someone could go one further and find the report? I couldn't see it in Google, just references to it. I'd like to see the list of anti-semitic activities. It didn't go into great detail.
I feel (I accept I'm biased in this regard) that anti-semitism has never had the fierce following in the UK that it seems to on the continent. Hell, if we're talking about Jews as a race rather than a religion, we even had a Jewish PM. (I know he converted to Christianity, but to anti-semitics, you never stop being a Jew.) It certainly doesn't crop up much in the papers. The UK's no.1 prejudice is anti-immigration. Just try reading the tabloids, and chances are you'll see it raising its ugly head.
<a href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/06/14/wrive14.xml' target='_blank'>France</a> is another story. But as far as I can remember, France has always had anti-semitic and anti-American tendancies. Is it a problem? I'd say so. Is there a solution? Not one that doesn't involve social change, and maybe not even that.
I don't want to talk about Germany too much, as I'm waiting for Nem0's post.
And let's look at Poland. Is it anti-American? Not at all. However, as a firmly Catholic country, they have a tradition of anti-semitism.
What I'm trying to say is that this isn't a Europe-wide trend, and that it certainly isn't anything new. I'm not trying to say that these sentiments have been stamped out, or that "Europe" is an enlightened place, or that these feelings are bad news.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the author got to be the deputy vice President of Sweden by spending too much time in America... Somehow I think he's spent just a little while there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm what i meant is that no European nation put "god" or "satan" in their politics, they are laic states. So saying that Europe thinks US is "a lesser Satan" can only be the result of a rumor, not an official statement. Even in France's most dire reactions to US you have never seen any declarations as aggressive as some of Bush's administration, and definitively no accusation of US being "a lesser Satan".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Those supposedly "baseless" accusations of blaming terror on the US and Israel come from a certain poll that was held recently in the EU that found 59% of EU people consider Israel the greatest threat to world peace, followed closely by the US<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As all polls, it is highly doubtful that it represents a majority of people's opinion. Besides apart from the number (7500) we dont even know where this pool has been taken, which socio-professional part of the population has been asked. This informations are most crucial for any anylisis of a pool.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->imagine everyones surprise when (USSR) turned out that it WAS an evil empire. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry, but even if I am not supporting communism, you just cant said that some country is "evil". Reality is far more nuanced than that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are going to have to do it the hard way and tackle it point by point, not dismissing the whole lot with a wave of your hand.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I didnt have time before, now i have.
All right, so from: <a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3561-2004Feb24.html' target='_blank'>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Feb24.html</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Today's release of Mel Gibson's movie "The Passion of the Christ" has catalyzed fears of resurgent anti-Semitism.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That was exactly the goal of the film-maker. This film was designed for that effect. I can hardly see how this shows an anti-semitic wave in Europe, as its sale was poor in Europe and it was, let's not forget, a film designed by and for US. And you can compare the 1,5M$ entries in France to the 360M$ made in US so far.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A cartoon in a mainstream Italian newspaper depicts the infant Jesus in a manger, menaced by an Israeli tank and saying, "Don't tell me they want to kill me again."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "A" cartoon from an unknown "mainstream" newspaper. Can it anymore vaguer? Besides, we dont even know what political side it is, and we dont even know how many people read it!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The European Union has suppressed a study it commissioned, because the study blamed the upsurge in anti-Jewish acts on European Muslims -- and the European left.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which study? One information completely vague, we dont even know what the study was about!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nineteen percent of Germans believe what a best-selling German book asserts: The CIA and Israel's Mossad organized the Sept. 11 attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If I was to judge a country by the kind of sensation novels it likes... It is a sensation novel that s all. Look at the sales of Nostradamus predictions in US then ....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On French television, a comedian wearing a Jewish skullcap gives a Nazi salute while yelling, "Isra-Heil!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes it was part of his sketch, some find it humourous, other not. The comic who did it (Dieudonné) is in trial now, and banned from TV channels, without pretty anyone defending him. I have to add that he did that in a live-action show, so there was no way French TV could have known what he intended to show.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->European anti-American demonstrations often include Israel's blue and white flag with a swastika replacing the star of David<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Another "we-give-no-day, and no-proof-whatsoever" example. When? Where? How many? I can guarantee you it is not in France or Germany, or it is right-wing extremist.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Omer Bartov, a historian at Brown University, writes in the New Republic that much of what Hitler said "can be found today in innumerable places: on Internet sites, propaganda brochures, political speeches, protest placards, academic publications, religious sermons, you name it."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because we all know that Internet is a really bright place, and that if a server is based on Europe, all of its web page are made by Europeans <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->. And again no examples whatsoever. I would like to see a proof of those "academic publications" he speaks of.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He drew together a collection of events, statistics and beliefs and arrived at a conclusion - anti-Semitism is growing in the EU.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No he didnt, there isnt any single fact, event, in this article. Nothing is documented; the biggest piece of meat he has is that pool with 7500 which supposedly describes the belief of 720 Millions of people in Europe.
Me too, I can throw countless accusations on anything i want if i dont give any documentation and references. <span style='color:orange'><a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3561-2004Feb24.html' target='_blank'>This present article</a> is highly un-professional, and CANNOT be the asset to describe a such general feeling as the rise of anti-semitic in Europe.</span>
And i still dont have any proof for that: <!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->Several nations have/are banning kosher slaughter of animals.
The EU seems to overwhelmingly blame the US and the Israeli's for the rise of global terrorism, the peace protest movement has gained momentum/popularity and seems determined to paint both the US and Israel as evil.<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hmm what i meant is that no European nation put "god" or "satan" in their politics, they are laic states. So saying that Europe thinks US is "a lesser Satan" can only be the result of a rumor, not an official statement. Even in France's most dire reactions to US you have never seen any declarations as aggressive as some of Bush's administration, and definitively no accusation of US being "a lesser Satan".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its a common metaphor based around the fundamentalist Islamic way of allocating Satanic titles to their enemies/threats. Its not something Governments would ever say - its the way people view things.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As all polls, it is highly doubtful that it represents a majority of people's opinion. Besides apart from the number (7500) we dont even know where this pool has been taken, which socio-professional part of the population has been asked. This informations are most crucial for any anylisis of a pool.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Polls are not 100% effective for sure, but they cannot be dismissed as completely meaningless. <a href='http://www.unknownnews.net/pollapology.html' target='_blank'>EU poll</a>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A spokesman for the commission, Gerassimos Thomas, said the delay was due to "technical" reasons. He refused to comment on the substance of the survey or whether it represented the commission's views. "This is nothing more than providing a service," he said of the survey, which is known as the Eurobarometer. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still, if you still hold the poll is dodgy because you dont know the socio-professional part of the population asked, feel free to prove that its biased by providing me with some evidence of that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sorry, but even if I am not supporting communism, you just cant said that some country is "evil". Reality is far more nuanced than that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? Stalin is my idea of pure evil. The USSR made life a living hell for millions of people, and ended the lives of millions more. Reality doesnt get more nuanced then living in fear of your government, the secret police and your friends who could be possible informers. Dissenters were crushed, political opponents/intellectuals murdered - thats evil.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That was exactly the goal of the film-maker. This film was designed for that effect. I can hardly see how this shows an anti-semitic wave in Europe, as its sale was poor in Europe and it was, let's not forget, a film designed by and for US. And you can compare the 1,5M$ entries in France to the 360M$ made in US so far. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The author was attacking two strains of anti-Semitism: one what he called intellectual anti-Semitism that was a world wide problem, and the other Euro-anti-semitism.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which study? One information completely vague, we dont even know what the study was about!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This gives me the impression you havent read the whole thread. Let me requote an article from the first page.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->EUMC report Publication of this latest report follows controversy over the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia's (EUMC) decision to shelve a similar study last year. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is the report he is referring too.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I was to judge a country by the kind of sensation novels it likes... It is a sensation novel that s all. Look at the sales of Nostradamus predictions in US then ....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He didnt say 19% of Germans bought this book therefore believe it - he said "The book sold well, and the ideas it was peddling were/are accepted by 19% of Germans". Its not the fact that it sold well that bugs him, its the fact that 19% of people surveyed seemed to agree with it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes it was part of his sketch, some find it humourous, other not. The comic who did it (Dieudonné) is in trial now, and banned from TV channels, without pretty anyone defending him. I have to add that he did that in a live-action show, so there was no way French TV could have known what he intended to show.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good to hear.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another "we-give-no-day, and no-proof-whatsoever" example. When? Where? How many? I can guarantee you it is not in France or Germany, or it is right-wing extremist.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come on. Australia is pretty moderate but even I've seen those sorts of banners/placards - have you never attended an anti-war rally before?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No he didnt, there isnt any single fact, event, in this article.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats not true. Several statements he made there had a factual basis. Some of them were slightly shakier but I believe you did a pretty thorough job in pointing those out. Dont assume that simply because someone doesnt source the hell out of their material, that they actually lack sources. Feel free to ask for them - but it gets embarrasing when you assume they are unsourced, and then find out they are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And i still dont have any proof for that:<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The proof of that was in a series of links I provided on the first page. <a href='http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29841' target='_blank'>Worldnetdaily</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Europe's new face of anti-Semitism 5 countries now ban production of kosher meat as synagogues burn, boycott of Israel continues
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted: December 3, 2002 1:00 a.m. Eastern
One of the first steps in Adolf Hitler's anti-Semitic drive in the creation of his Third Reich was instituting a ban on the kosher slaughter of animals.
Today, as a new wave of ugly, and sometimes violent, anti-Semitism sweeps through the European continent, at least five countries have banned kosher food production, and one of them is considering halting all import of kosher meat.
The latest nation to join the movement is Holland, where the move was guised in concern for cruelty to animals.
"They simply don't want foreigners and they don't want Jews," said Rabbi Michael Melchior, former chief rabbi of Norway, another European nation that bans kosher meat production. "I won't say this is the only motivation, but it's certainly no coincidence that one of the first things Nazi Germany forbade was kosher slaughter. I also know that during the original debate on this issue in Norway, where shechitah has been banned since 1930, one of the parliamentarians said straight out, 'If they don't like it, let them go live somewhere else.'"
While animal-rights activists have indeed been at the forefront of the recent efforts to ban kosher slaughter, there is growing concern on the part of people like Melchior, now an Israeli official, that initiatives spreading through Europe are gaining popularity because of deep-seated anti-Semitism manifesting itself in many other ways, from Belgium to Germany to France and Switzerland.
On Saturday, unknown assailants hurled a Molotov cocktail at a synagogue in the Belgian port city of Antwerp, where riots by Arab immigrants began a week ago following the shooting of a 27-year-old Moroccan immigrant. About 30,000 people of Arab origin live in Antwerp. It is also home to a long-established Orthodox Jewish community of about 20,000.
Several weeks ago, Germany announced a decision to stop all arms sales to Israel. This comes at a time when attacks on memorials to Nazi-era victims are on the rise. In at least seven attacks this year, extremists destroyed a memorial plaque at Raben-Steinfeld, vandalized a memorial in Woebbelin and a memorial column in Lutterow, and drew a swastika on the grounds of the Sachsenhausen concentration camp on the Nov. 9 anniversary of Krystalnacht, or the Night of Broken Glass, when Nazis targeted Jewish businesses and synagogues in 1938.
German police are investigating an incident last month where anti-Semitic disruptions occurred at a Berlin ceremony to restore a street name referring to Jews that was erased by Nazi officials in 1938. Hecklers at the event booed, whistled and shouted slogans including "Jews out" and "The Jews crucified Jesus," according to Germany's Central Council of Jews. Paul Spiegel, the group's head, said he was horrified and that the incident "reminds us painfully of the late 1920s," when the Nazis began their rise to power in Germany. The event re-established Juedenstrasse – an old German word for Jews' Street – in the western district of Spandau after years of deliberations by local officials. The name, dating back to the 16th century, recalls Spandau's former Jewish community. Under Nazi rule, the street was renamed for Gottfried Kinkel, a 19th-century poet and art historian who was once imprisoned in Spandau.
Fiona Macaulay, public affairs director of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, says incidents of anti-Semitism have increased 400 percent in Britain since the start of the intifada in the fall of 2000.
A one-day international conference on sanctions and divestment in London last week called for a boycott of Israel "not dissimilar to the campaign which contributed to the end of apartheid in South Africa." Of course, it's not just Europe that is experiencing a wave of new anti-Semitism.
Avi Beker, the secretary-general of the World Jewish Congress, says in the past two years Jews around the world have experienced the worst anti-Semitism since World War II, primarily because of the effects of the Middle East conflict. In Canada, the U.S. and Europe, there have been attacks on synagogues and other Jewish centers as well as individual Jews, he says.
"Anti-Semitism, showing itself to be the most enduring and the hardiest manifestation of the racism virus, has reared its ugly head once again," says Keith Landy, the Canadian Jewish Congress president. Landy said across the world Jewish people continue to face discrimination, harassment and violence because of their faith. It is a sad day for any religion when a security guard must be posted at the door of a place of worship so people may pray in safety – a common occurrence at many Jewish synagogues, he stated. "Instead of declaring 'never again,' we find ourselves painfully asking, 'will it ever end?'"
Since October 2000, there have been 300 anti-Semitic occurrences in Canada, he said. Also, he argued, the current international attack on Israel is clear anti-Semitism.
Australia's Jewish community is also experiencing the highest level of anti-Semitism since statistics were first collected 57 years ago, figures released recently by the Executive Council of Australian Jewry showed.
Council President Jeremy Jones told United Press International there were 593 reports of anti-Semitism in the year to Sept. 30, with incidents ranging from physical and verbal assaults to firebombs thrown at synagogues and community centers, telephone threats, hate mail and e-mail.
He said there are dozens of groups perpetrating hate crimes. The main ones are the Australian League of Rights, the Adelaide Institute, neo-Nazi fringe groups and the Citizens Electoral Councils, which are followers of U.S.-based Lyndon H. LaRouche Jr.
The man with the highest profile is historian Frederick Toben of the Adelaide Institute, who, like British historian David Irving, denies the existence of the Holocaust.
Jones also lamented what he calls horrific material from Muslims in Australia and singles out Sheik Taj al Din al Hilaly, spiritual leader of Australia's Muslims and one of the country's most contentious religious figures. After he arrived from Egypt in 1982, the government tried to expel him for making statements condemned as incitement to racial hatred. A Sydney Morning Herald journalist, Alan Ramsey, wrote that these included comments that Jews are the underlying cause of all wars, use sex and abominable acts of sodomy to control the world, and that Jews had a malicious disposition toward all mankind.
But it is in Europe where anti-Semitism is getting the most attention – perhaps because the Holocaust occurred just a generation earlier in the continent.
When there was an effort by Jews in Switzerland to lift the century-old ban on the production of kosher meat, an anti-Semitic backlash erupted earlier this year.
"This is a trend that is very much worrying us," said Beker. He points out that a movement in Sweden, another European nation that bans kosher slaughter, attempted to ban ritual circumcision – the quintessential rite of passage for Jewish males. "We regard this as interference in Jewish religious practices."
Abraham Foxman, the national director of the Anti-Defamation League, said bans on kosher slaughter are the result of activism between animal-rights extremists "aided and abetted" by anti-Semitic politicians.
"Sometimes anti-Semites will use this as a vehicle to try to isolate the Jewish community by reaching out to those who are so preoccupied with animal rights," he told Jewish Week. "The key is whether or not there is a history in that country. ... What other issues of animal rights have they engaged in to prohibit cruelty? When they begin and end with kosher slaughter, that's when I become suspect."
While the Holland ban offers some loopholes to the Jewish community in the country, the Swiss ban on shechitah may go even further. The government earlier this year considered a ban on the import of kosher meat, and the Swiss Animal Association is calling for a national referendum on barring the import of such products. A poll shows 76 percent of the population would support such a move.
"It's ominous," said Rabbi Menachem Genack, the kashrut administrator for the Orthodox Union, the largest kosher-certifying organization in the world. "This kind of legislation in Europe has to be understood in the context of European history. A person would have to be extremely naive not to think that this is linked to anti-Semitism."
Melchior makes the case that kosher slaughter is actually more humane than the practices in slaughterhouses.
"The Torah forbids cruelty to animals, and the shechitah process ensures that the animal loses consciousness immediately," he explains. "We have been dealing with this issue for many years, and there are many scientific studies that back us up." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Fat Man/ Little Coat+Jun 14 2004, 05:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fat Man/ Little Coat @ Jun 14 2004, 05:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Being anti-american isn't racism.
America isn't a race. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it's just being "trendy" to hate America at the moment :/
<!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Jun 15 2004, 12:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 15 2004, 12:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Fat Man/ Little Coat+Jun 14 2004, 05:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fat Man/ Little Coat @ Jun 14 2004, 05:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Being anti-american isn't racism.
America isn't a race. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it's just being "trendy" to hate America at the moment :/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> meh, your making things up. youll never learn anything from debates as long as you convince yourself you already know the 'other sides' motives... especially when you assume they are so trivial as 'being cool'... fair enough, im sure many [young] people hate america for the sake of it, but dont tar us all with that brush please.
America isn't a race. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it's just being "trendy" to hate America at the moment :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> meh, your making things up. youll never learn anything from debates as long as you convince yourself you already know the 'other sides' motives... especially when you assume they are so trivial as 'being cool'... fair enough, im sure many [young] people hate america for the sake of it, but dont tar us all with that brush please. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But that is just it, people, particularly protesters, just join in the latest "we are opposed to X" just to be trendy or 'cool'. For example, I attended all of the protests that happened in Dunedin last year just out of sheer boredom/curiosity. I noticed that half the time the same people were turning up (very obvious in a small city like dunedin), and I even noticed the local socialist group had signs that you could just change the labels on to fit any protest. When I questioned many of these people, they hadn't the first clue what the main issues about what they were protesting were.
Quite frankly, I am more than convinced that a lot of protesters don't understand or have the first clue about any issue they are protesting (particularly anti-vivisectionists, I challenged over 30 of them one day to simple questions and they didn't have a clue how to answer or even an understanding of it). I am convinced that the latest "hate America" craze is just one of those things people are doing to be trendy and fit in with the other "young protesters" they see around.
Hell, I even heard about an American student on exchange here who on seeing one of those idiotic International Socialist posters (Something about how America is the new Nazi Germany or something) she said "Wow that is so true, I hate Bush etc", the two NZ students simply replies "What? We don't agree with that rubbish". Upon which she just said "Oh, I just wanted to fit in".
Anectodal evidence yes, but I feel that it is more than justified because many people do just hate or go along with the crowd to fit in. When someone else does something that generally annoys the anti-war crowd they'll forget about America and move onto hating something else. Just like what most protest movements seem to do.
There you are, that's my rant in a nutshell.
Incidently, I'm a New Zealander but I have enough appreciation of history to realise that hating America to be trendy isn't very intelligent. America did a lot for the defence of New Zealand (WW2) and we basically then turned around and screwed them later when we didn't need them (Draconic nuclear policy, bailing out on ANZUS etc). This doesn't mean I approve of Bush or the current American government, but I'm not about to hate <i>America</i>, IE the country, because their leader is a bit of an idiot*.
*I tried every word I could think of to put there that wouldn't sound nasty, but I absolutely couldn't find a way to express myself without using a word that essentially meant the same thing.
The recent and current tactics employed by both the US and Israeli governments are reprehensible, even if they are intended to preserve their citizens' way of life. Sometimes rather ineffectively. Any ire directed at them is at least somewhat founded. That is not the same as hating their citizens, or Jews in general, but some people are unable to differenciate.
Also, terrorists will go wherever US soldiers go. Even if Iraq wasn't a hotbed of terrorism before the war (and I'm pretty sure that was the least of their problems), it is now. Whenever we finally leave, the terrorists will move on to another US target on foreign soil (where it is much more vulnerable), and resume the hunt. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> /me is also an American Citizen
Agreed.
There is a general distaste of the USA and Israel not just in Europe, but all over the world. Its not because they are racist, but because they disagree with our foreign policy. The USA has been using underhanded tactics in meddling with other (particularly third world) countries for decades, if not longer, and that doesnt exactly earn us a good reputation. What about Israel? Arent they just innocent victims of hostile neighbors? God no. One of the primary reasons Israel is hated, is not because its people are Jewish, but because they are Invaders. The land we know as Israel was originally Palestine, and after World War 2, the West sectioned off a good sized portion, to be Israel, shafting the local Palestinians. How would you feel if one day, France decided the Louisiana Purchase was a bad idea, took the land, filled it with Frenchmen, and eventually forced the locals farther and farther away from their homes?
Are all Americans Warmongers? Well, our government is, and we ARE a democracy...
This isnt racism, trying to play this issue as racist will only promote hate-mongering.
I dislike Bush, I'm hardly in a blind rage about it but I have nothing at all against americans. You find nice people everywhere where people can afford to be nice, it's not like I care if someone is from the US. I'm kind of against grouping US as a single unit unless we are talking about the results of a national poll or something.
coming to this thread late, so pardon if i return to the original article...
it's a bit strange to focus on european "racism" or something. there's people like that everywhere.
I was talking to a palestinian the other day, online... after telling him that israel and judea were under the roman thumb in the days of Christ, he told me that i was a "dumb **** zionist" and proceeded to tell me that the Bible said that Jesus went to Palestine, disregarding the whole fact that it was never called such until nearly a millenia later.
He also claimed that Israel didn't exist until the Brits put them there 50 years ago, despite the fact that Israel historically owned it up on the Canaanites (including phillistines, the palestinian namesake) nearly 1000 years BC.
Then when I asked him for his evidence, he promptly said "you can't argue with an American, because they're always right" and called me a bunch of names that this board can do without.
I was kind of disappointed in humanity.
Anyway, story mode over. It's just proof that anyone and everyone can and will be short-sighted or narrowminded at some point.
<!--QuoteBegin-pieceofsoap+Jun 15 2004, 04:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (pieceofsoap @ Jun 15 2004, 04:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What about Israel? Arent they just innocent victims of hostile neighbors? God no. One of the primary reasons Israel is hated, is not because its people are Jewish, but because they are Invaders. The land we know as Israel was originally Palestine, and after World War 2, the West sectioned off a good sized portion, to be Israel, shafting the local Palestinians. How would you feel if one day, France decided the Louisiana Purchase was a bad idea, took the land, filled it with Frenchmen, and eventually forced the locals farther and farther away from their homes? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah yes, historical ignorance of the Judeo-palestinian war strikes again.
Invaders bah. The Jews legally bought large amounts of (the worst available) land in palestine between the 1900's -1940's. They legally migrated there under the British Mandate designed for Jews to emigrate to West Palestine. The British promised both the Arabs and the Jews individually that they could have all of Palestine if they helped fight the Nazi's. Come the end of WW2, they decided to back the Arabs instead. The Jews weren't terribly thrilled about this, considering their was only 1.2 million of them their instead of the 12 million that were supposed to have emigrated to Palestine, and the Arabs were more than a little jealous over the bad land that the Jews had converted into the best land in Palestine.
The Jews still wanted their own homeland (As promised to them by the British and the Balfour declaration), and had millions of Jews world wide who wanted it too. In 1947 the UN general assembly passed a Resolution for the establishment of an independent Jewish State in Palestine. They didnt think it would last a year. In 1948 the Jews took them up on it, and were instantly attacked by vastly superior forces. The British trained (and British lead) Arab legion of Jordan, the tanks, planes, troops and artillery of Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Iraq were sent against a hastily organised Jewish mobilisation with small arms.
These attacking forces were so convinced they would win that they told the Palestinians in the new state of Israel to leave until they had cleansed the land of the Zionists. The Jews (generally) asked them to stay. The citizens of Hafia had this request for the Palestinians:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For years we have lived together in our city, Haifa.... Do not fear: Do not destroy your homes with your own hands ... do not bring upon yourself tragedy by unnecessary evacuation and self-imposed burdens.... But in this city, yours and ours, Haifa, the gates are open for work, for life, and for peace for you and your families."3<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Over 60% of Palestinians in Israel left without seeing a single Israeli soldier. The Israeli's, with little more than FUNDRAISING by Jews in America, won the war and waited for the refugee's to return. They didnt. That was because of sentiment like this
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Emile Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Command, called for the prevention of the refugees from "return." He stated in the Beirut Telegraph on August 6, 1948: "it is inconceivable that the refugees should be sent back to their homes while they are occupied by the Jews.... It would serve as a first step toward Arab recognition of the state of Israel and Partition." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The surrounding Arab nations kept their refugees and let them fester in Godawful camps so as to make the Israeli's look bad, and as a recruiting ground for Fedayeen fighters to make terrorist attacks on the Israelis.
The Palestinians got the short end of the stick - but thats thanks to their Muslim "brothers". While I am eternally suspicious of any quote with millions of ...'s in it:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees... while it is we who made them leave.... We brought disaster upon ... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave.... We have rendered them dispossessed.... We have accustomed them to begging.... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level.... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon ... men, women and children-all this in the service of political purposes .... [36] -- Khaled Al-Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Palestinians are where they are today through the actions of themselves and the countries surrounding Israel. Purely blaming the Israeli's is naive.
Wheee - you Palestinian friend would do well to actually READ the Bible, where the Palestinians are mentioned neither in the New Testament or the Old Testament.
Is "Palestine" even an actual historical location/race? I do believe the word "palestinian" was created by the Romans to describe the local people in occupied Jordan/Galilee, designed just to **** off the Jews because it was a reference to the "Philistines", who were ancient enemies of the Jews.
No, they did that in WWI. They renamed saurkraut as victory cabbage, and hamburgers into...eh, victory beef or ham or something.... WWII Americans didn't focus on hating Germans, the government told us it was all the Nazi's fault, not the German citizens'.
<!--QuoteBegin-Marine01+Jun 15 2004, 07:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Jun 15 2004, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wheeee - your Palestinian friend would do well to actually READ the Bible, where the Palestinians are mentioned neither in the New Testament or the Old Testament. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, I know... I challenged him directly for proof, either historically or by verses in the Bible (I was sure that I have never read about Palestine in the Bible, and the only parts I haven't read now are some of the minor prophets...argh...it's hard to read translated poetry :\), but he refused to do so and started calling me names.
It was sad to see him resort to using ad hominem with a vengeance.
*edit* clarification. Palestine is named after the Phillistines, which were a race that lived in the area between Gaza and...uh...the northern part of Canaan. They were fairly influential there in the 2nd millenia BC, but Israelis began to conquer the whole of Canaan around 1300 BC. If I recall correctly, Goliath was a Phillistine, and after David defeated him the Israelites routed them (as they did on other occasions).
I know about this phrase along the line "Those who do not know/learn history are doomed to repeat it." But come on, some of you guys are supporting your argument with the actions of folks from the 1940s and beyond.
Nevermind how it got started, people are being driven from their home in Palestine. Forget about how US saved the World half a century ago, right now, it's dividing the world. May be you should bring up how the French helped you in the Revolutionary War if you want to play this card. A nation could turn into better or worse. May be, just may be, US isn't as perfect any more.
I'd still like to see more evidence supporting the idea that anti-semitism and anti-Americanism are becoming interlinked. We've seen that both prejustices have risen in Europe, but I haven't seen much to convince me that the two are merging. This topic is about whether Europe is becoming an anti-sem and anti-US institution. Whether Israel is in the right or wrong isn't really the focus of the thread; we're not trying to justify anti-Israeli sentiment, after all.
We haven't even had a good look at what is responsible for this surge. European anti-semitism has tradionally sprung from envy - the Jews are seen as the bankers, the doctors, the big merchants. They're seen as not deserving it, they're stupid, and because they're stupid must only be successful because they cheat. (And so on and so on.) Just look at the anti-semite propoganda for the last century, and you'll see that it centres on these things mainly. Do you see a similarity to anti-American stereotypes? The fat, lazy, stupid, <i>undeserving</i> American who thinks he belongs to God's own country? And the fat, hook-nosed, <i>Christ-killing</i> Jew, who thinks he's one of God's own people?
I can't help feel that Israel is just an excuse. As I've said, prejudices are instinctive rather than rational; anti-semitism existed long before the modern state of Israel. Anti-Americanism goes deeper than Iraq, as well. The truth is that anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism are just two sides of the same coin. They aren't so much interlinked as they are the same thing in different guise. The rise of one does not necessitate the rise of the other.
Anyway, <a href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/01/wsemit01.xml' target='_blank'>here</a>'s an interesting article.
This thread is not a can of worms, this is, as Jeff Paris once put it, a delerict interstellar vessel travelling towards a dying star filled up to the brim with worms.
Folks, <i>either</i> discuss the anti-*.*istic tendencies growing in various European populations, <i>or</i> discuss the Isreali situation, <i>or</i> discuss the GNP and comparative workloads of different nations. But <i>never, ever</i>, blanket label nations into 'them' and 'us', and <i>never</i> accuse other discussing factions of one of said anti-*.*isms.
Comments
I dont see any anti americanism in Europe only a strong anti-Bush wave. Clinton was way more appreciated.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The images many Europeans hold of the US and Israel create the political climate for some very ugly bias. You have the Great Satan and the Small Satan.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the author has lived too much in US to make religious comparisons in European politics ...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Instead of supporting those who fight international terrorism, many Europeans try to blame the spreade of terrorism on Israel and the US.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would be glad if instead of just claming that, he actually proved it. That s just calomny until proven.
Seriously that article was completely and utterly baseless. The author based his whole analysis on 2 facts. He completely forgot to mention that s there is no anti Americanism but an Anti-Bushism which is cause by what happened in UN and the woefully poor communications between EU and US. He compares '45 with nowadays without even looking in between. That s an hardly professional method; he had better look 10 years ago instead of making wild assumtions over 50 years. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anti-zionism has of course more followers than in US, but that's because there is more Arabic people, that s all. And it is not as high as the author thinks it is.
And the Marshall Plan wasnt for the pretty eyes of Europe as the author seems to think, but it was an insurance for US that Europe wont join communism. It was self interested.
For me this article is complete propaganda, and is further more insulting by the way he doesnt verify what he implies. Where did you find it?
As for unbiased - I'm not claiming to be unbiased. I am a militant right wing fanatic, the modern day neo-conservative. I just happen to be from Australia, looking from the outside in to what I see as a problem with the EU presented to me in a series of articles outlining concerns over the apparent simultaneous spread of anti-Zionism, anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism.
So far, most people have responded with "that doesnt speak for all Europe, we just disagree with American/Zionist foreign policy etc" but as far as throwing down counter claims and linking me to actual proof, we've come up a little short. Which is fair enough, its really hard to prove you're NOT racist - for every 1,000,000 nice things you do to Israeli's, its the 1 thing you dont that everyone hears about.
However, attacks on Jews in the EU are UP. Several nations have/are banning kosher slaughter of animals. (I know its cheap to draw a connection between this and Nazi's, but banning kosher slaughter is one of the first things Hitler did in his anti-Semite campaign). The EU seems to overwhelmingly blame the US and the Israeli's for the rise of global terrorism, the peace protest movement has gained momentum/popularity and seems determined to paint both the US and Israel as evil.
From the outside looking in, that's pretty ugly stuff.
EDIT
Yeah thats right Draconis - the author got to be the deputy vice President of Sweden by spending too much time in America... Somehow I think he's spent just a little while there.
Those supposedly "baseless" accusations of blaming terror on the US and Israel come from a certain poll that was held recently in the EU that found 59% of EU people consider Israel the greatest threat to world peace, followed closely by the US
<a href='http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/04/1067708213036.html?oneclick=true' target='_blank'>EU doesnt seem to be disagreeing</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The European Commission has apologised to Israel for an opinion poll which found that Israel is the country most ordinary Europeans regard as the biggest threat to world peace.
Israeli leaders and international Jewish groups have angrily denounced the poll, saying European criticism of Israel is motivated by anti-Semitism.
In apparent agreement, the President of the European Commission, Romano Prodi, said the results "point to the continued existence of a bias that must be condemned out of hand".
"To the extent that this may indicate a deeper, more general prejudice against the Jewish world, our repugnance is even more radical," he said.
The present holder of the rotating European presidency, the Italian Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi, said he felt "surprise and indignation" and that the question had been "misleading".
Mr Berlusconi recently weathered a similar controversy after publicly denying that the Italian dictator Benito Mussolini played any role in the Holocaust. He was subsequently awarded a prize by the Jewish Anti-Defamation League for his support for Israel and the US.
Carried out as part of continuing surveys by the European Union, the telephone poll sampled 7500 respondents in all 15 EU member states.
Presented with the names of 14 countries, the respondents were asked if they regarded each in turn as a threat to world peace. The results showed 59 per cent of respondents agreed that Israel was the biggest threat to world peace. The US, Iran and North Korea came joint second with 53 per cent. Iraq came next with 52 per cent, followed by Afghanistan.
Libya, Saudi Arabia, China, India, Somalia, Russia, Syria and Pakistan all scored less than 50 per cent.
Palestine was not listed because, the EU says, it is not a country.
Meanwhile, on a visit to Russia, the Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, said he was prepared to meet the recently appointed Palestinian Prime Minister, Ahmed Qurie, to discuss the stalled "road map" for peace.
The Israeli Government froze contacts with the Palestinian Authority following the breakdown of a short-lived unilateral Palestinian ceasefire, saying it could not negotiate while the authority's chairman, Yasser Arafat - whom it accuses of terrorism - is still pulling the strings of power. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also love how you dismiss the Marshall plan as self interested. I suppose you also reckon that US military intervention in Europe in 1945 was self interested? Communism was fought against not only because it opposed US style capitalism, but because it was considered an "Evil Empire" ala Reagan - imagine everyones surprise when it turned out that it WAS an evil empire.
I cant help but think of a man trying to hitchhike a lift in the rain. Eventually a man stops, opens his door and this sopping wet guy plonks himself on the passenger side seat. "Where are you headed" he asks the driver. "To the city" is the reply. They start talking, and an hour later they arrive at the city. As he alights, the hitch-hiker offers "I really appreciate you giving me a lift". The driver replies "Hey, its was no trouble, I was on the way to the city anyway, and I enjoyed the company". The hitchhiker stops, stares at the driver and then blurts out "Lol, sod you you selfish newb, you did it all for yourself" and walks off into the city.
The US acts in what it percieves as its best interest, and what it percieves as its allies best interests. The emphasis is on the former - but the massive investment in lives and finances that secured America's allies when they were under threat cannot be ignored simply because it also served the US as well.
Several nations have/are banning kosher slaughter of animals.
The EU seems to overwhelmingly blame the US and the Israeli's for the rise of global terrorism, the peace protest movement has gained momentum/popularity and seems determined to paint both the US and Israel as evil.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine01, as it is for you so obvious, do what this author hasnt done and show me proof of what you are saying.
The "proofs" given here: <a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3561-2004Feb24.html' target='_blank'>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Feb24.html</a>
are all misreadings of one-day news. How in hell can you judge anti-semitism to the influence a doubtful film make? As well as some scandals books, and the vague "facts".
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Done, in the edit above. The author didnt bother to present his proof as that anti-zionist poll result is very well known world wide.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The "proofs" given here: <a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3561-2004Feb24.html' target='_blank'>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Feb24.html</a>
are all misreadings of one-day news. How in hell can you judge anti-semitism to the influence a doubtful film make? As well as some scandals books, and the vague "facts".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He didnt judge anti-Semitism based around a single film. He drew together a collection of events, statistics and beliefs and arrived at a conclusion - anti-Semitism is growing in the EU. If you want to criticise that article, and I'm sure you can (heck in my brief skim of it I picked up 4-5 weaker points) - then you are going to have to do it the hard way and tackle it point by point, not dismissing the whole lot with a wave of your hand.
I won't deny that that poll was a bit scary in that regard. I'd be curious as to what would have come out if Palestine was included, but I guess we'll never know for sure.
The fact that there is no one European view doesn't mean there is no increase in anti-semitism, anti-Americanism, or both; it means that they're not necessarily linked.
That BBC article you linked to was interesting, but I don't suppose someone could go one further and find the report? I couldn't see it in Google, just references to it. I'd like to see the list of anti-semitic activities. It didn't go into great detail.
I feel (I accept I'm biased in this regard) that anti-semitism has never had the fierce following in the UK that it seems to on the continent. Hell, if we're talking about Jews as a race rather than a religion, we even had a Jewish PM. (I know he converted to Christianity, but to anti-semitics, you never stop being a Jew.) It certainly doesn't crop up much in the papers. The UK's no.1 prejudice is anti-immigration. Just try reading the tabloids, and chances are you'll see it raising its ugly head.
<a href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/06/14/wrive14.xml' target='_blank'>France</a> is another story. But as far as I can remember, France has always had anti-semitic and anti-American tendancies. Is it a problem? I'd say so. Is there a solution? Not one that doesn't involve social change, and maybe not even that.
I don't want to talk about Germany too much, as I'm waiting for Nem0's post.
And let's look at Poland. Is it anti-American? Not at all. However, as a firmly Catholic country, they have a tradition of anti-semitism.
What I'm trying to say is that this isn't a Europe-wide trend, and that it certainly isn't anything new. I'm not trying to say that these sentiments have been stamped out, or that "Europe" is an enlightened place, or that these feelings are bad news.
Hmm what i meant is that no European nation put "god" or "satan" in their politics, they are laic states. So saying that Europe thinks US is "a lesser Satan" can only be the result of a rumor, not an official statement. Even in France's most dire reactions to US you have never seen any declarations as aggressive as some of Bush's administration, and definitively no accusation of US being "a lesser Satan".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Those supposedly "baseless" accusations of blaming terror on the US and Israel come from a certain poll that was held recently in the EU that found 59% of EU people consider Israel the greatest threat to world peace, followed closely by the US<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As all polls, it is highly doubtful that it represents a majority of people's opinion. Besides apart from the number (7500) we dont even know where this pool has been taken, which socio-professional part of the population has been asked. This informations are most crucial for any anylisis of a pool.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->imagine everyones surprise when (USSR) turned out that it WAS an evil empire. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, but even if I am not supporting communism, you just cant said that some country is "evil". Reality is far more nuanced than that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are going to have to do it the hard way and tackle it point by point, not dismissing the whole lot with a wave of your hand.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I didnt have time before, now i have.
All right, so from: <a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3561-2004Feb24.html' target='_blank'>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Feb24.html</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Today's release of Mel Gibson's movie "The Passion of the Christ" has catalyzed fears of resurgent anti-Semitism.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was exactly the goal of the film-maker. This film was designed for that effect. I can hardly see how this shows an anti-semitic wave in Europe, as its sale was poor in Europe and it was, let's not forget, a film designed by and for US. And you can compare the 1,5M$ entries in France to the 360M$ made in US so far.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A cartoon in a mainstream Italian newspaper depicts the infant Jesus in a manger, menaced by an Israeli tank and saying, "Don't tell me they want to kill me again."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"A" cartoon from an unknown "mainstream" newspaper. Can it anymore vaguer? Besides, we dont even know what political side it is, and we dont even know how many people read it!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The European Union has suppressed a study it commissioned, because the study blamed the upsurge in anti-Jewish acts on European Muslims -- and the European left.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which study? One information completely vague, we dont even know what the study was about!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nineteen percent of Germans believe what a best-selling German book asserts: The CIA and Israel's Mossad organized the Sept. 11 attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I was to judge a country by the kind of sensation novels it likes... It is a sensation novel that s all. Look at the sales of Nostradamus predictions in US then ....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On French television, a comedian wearing a Jewish skullcap gives a Nazi salute while yelling, "Isra-Heil!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it was part of his sketch, some find it humourous, other not. The comic who did it (Dieudonné) is in trial now, and banned from TV channels, without pretty anyone defending him. I have to add that he did that in a live-action show, so there was no way French TV could have known what he intended to show.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->European anti-American demonstrations often include Israel's blue and white flag with a swastika replacing the star of David<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another "we-give-no-day, and no-proof-whatsoever" example. When? Where? How many? I can guarantee you it is not in France or Germany, or it is right-wing extremist.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Omer Bartov, a historian at Brown University, writes in the New Republic that much of what Hitler said "can be found today in innumerable places: on Internet sites, propaganda brochures, political speeches, protest placards, academic publications, religious sermons, you name it."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because we all know that Internet is a really bright place, and that if a server is based on Europe, all of its web page are made by Europeans <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->. And again no examples whatsoever. I would like to see a proof of those "academic publications" he speaks of.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He drew together a collection of events, statistics and beliefs and arrived at a conclusion - anti-Semitism is growing in the EU.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No he didnt, there isnt any single fact, event, in this article. Nothing is documented; the biggest piece of meat he has is that pool with 7500 which supposedly describes the belief of 720 Millions of people in Europe.
Me too, I can throw countless accusations on anything i want if i dont give any documentation and references. <span style='color:orange'><a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3561-2004Feb24.html' target='_blank'>This present article</a> is highly un-professional, and CANNOT be the asset to describe a such general feeling as the rise of anti-semitic in Europe.</span>
And i still dont have any proof for that:
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->Several nations have/are banning kosher slaughter of animals.
The EU seems to overwhelmingly blame the US and the Israeli's for the rise of global terrorism, the peace protest movement has gained momentum/popularity and seems determined to paint both the US and Israel as evil.<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
America isn't a race.
Its a common metaphor based around the fundamentalist Islamic way of allocating Satanic titles to their enemies/threats. Its not something Governments would ever say - its the way people view things.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As all polls, it is highly doubtful that it represents a majority of people's opinion. Besides apart from the number (7500) we dont even know where this pool has been taken, which socio-professional part of the population has been asked. This informations are most crucial for any anylisis of a pool.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Polls are not 100% effective for sure, but they cannot be dismissed as completely meaningless. <a href='http://www.unknownnews.net/pollapology.html' target='_blank'>EU poll</a>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A spokesman for the commission, Gerassimos Thomas, said the delay was due to "technical" reasons. He refused to comment on the substance of the survey or whether it represented the commission's views. "This is nothing more than providing a service," he said of the survey, which is known as the Eurobarometer.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still, if you still hold the poll is dodgy because you dont know the socio-professional part of the population asked, feel free to prove that its biased by providing me with some evidence of that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sorry, but even if I am not supporting communism, you just cant said that some country is "evil". Reality is far more nuanced than that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? Stalin is my idea of pure evil. The USSR made life a living hell for millions of people, and ended the lives of millions more. Reality doesnt get more nuanced then living in fear of your government, the secret police and your friends who could be possible informers. Dissenters were crushed, political opponents/intellectuals murdered - thats evil.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That was exactly the goal of the film-maker. This film was designed for that effect. I can hardly see how this shows an anti-semitic wave in Europe, as its sale was poor in Europe and it was, let's not forget, a film designed by and for US. And you can compare the 1,5M$ entries in France to the 360M$ made in US so far.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The author was attacking two strains of anti-Semitism: one what he called intellectual anti-Semitism that was a world wide problem, and the other Euro-anti-semitism.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which study? One information completely vague, we dont even know what the study was about!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This gives me the impression you havent read the whole thread. Let me requote an article from the first page.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->EUMC report
Publication of this latest report follows controversy over the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia's (EUMC) decision to shelve a similar study last year.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is the report he is referring too.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I was to judge a country by the kind of sensation novels it likes... It is a sensation novel that s all. Look at the sales of Nostradamus predictions in US then ....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He didnt say 19% of Germans bought this book therefore believe it - he said "The book sold well, and the ideas it was peddling were/are accepted by 19% of Germans". Its not the fact that it sold well that bugs him, its the fact that 19% of people surveyed seemed to agree with it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes it was part of his sketch, some find it humourous, other not. The comic who did it (Dieudonné) is in trial now, and banned from TV channels, without pretty anyone defending him. I have to add that he did that in a live-action show, so there was no way French TV could have known what he intended to show.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good to hear.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another "we-give-no-day, and no-proof-whatsoever" example. When? Where? How many? I can guarantee you it is not in France or Germany, or it is right-wing extremist.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come on. Australia is pretty moderate but even I've seen those sorts of banners/placards - have you never attended an anti-war rally before?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No he didnt, there isnt any single fact, event, in this article.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats not true. Several statements he made there had a factual basis. Some of them were slightly shakier but I believe you did a pretty thorough job in pointing those out. Dont assume that simply because someone doesnt source the hell out of their material, that they actually lack sources. Feel free to ask for them - but it gets embarrasing when you assume they are unsourced, and then find out they are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And i still dont have any proof for that:<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The proof of that was in a series of links I provided on the first page. <a href='http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29841' target='_blank'>Worldnetdaily</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Europe's new face
of anti-Semitism
5 countries now ban production of kosher meat as synagogues burn, boycott of Israel continues
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 3, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com
One of the first steps in Adolf Hitler's anti-Semitic drive in the creation of his Third Reich was instituting a ban on the kosher slaughter of animals.
Today, as a new wave of ugly, and sometimes violent, anti-Semitism sweeps through the European continent, at least five countries have banned kosher food production, and one of them is considering halting all import of kosher meat.
The latest nation to join the movement is Holland, where the move was guised in concern for cruelty to animals.
"They simply don't want foreigners and they don't want Jews," said Rabbi Michael Melchior, former chief rabbi of Norway, another European nation that bans kosher meat production. "I won't say this is the only motivation, but it's certainly no coincidence that one of the first things Nazi Germany forbade was kosher slaughter. I also know that during the original debate on this issue in Norway, where shechitah has been banned since 1930, one of the parliamentarians said straight out, 'If they don't like it, let them go live somewhere else.'"
While animal-rights activists have indeed been at the forefront of the recent efforts to ban kosher slaughter, there is growing concern on the part of people like Melchior, now an Israeli official, that initiatives spreading through Europe are gaining popularity because of deep-seated anti-Semitism manifesting itself in many other ways, from Belgium to Germany to France and Switzerland.
On Saturday, unknown assailants hurled a Molotov cocktail at a synagogue in the Belgian port city of Antwerp, where riots by Arab immigrants began a week ago following the shooting of a 27-year-old Moroccan immigrant. About 30,000 people of Arab origin live in Antwerp. It is also home to a long-established Orthodox Jewish community of about 20,000.
Several weeks ago, Germany announced a decision to stop all arms sales to Israel. This comes at a time when attacks on memorials to Nazi-era victims are on the rise. In at least seven attacks this year, extremists destroyed a memorial plaque at Raben-Steinfeld, vandalized a memorial in Woebbelin and a memorial column in Lutterow, and drew a swastika on the grounds of the Sachsenhausen concentration camp on the Nov. 9 anniversary of Krystalnacht, or the Night of Broken Glass, when Nazis targeted Jewish businesses and synagogues in 1938.
German police are investigating an incident last month where anti-Semitic disruptions occurred at a Berlin ceremony to restore a street name referring to Jews that was erased by Nazi officials in 1938. Hecklers at the event booed, whistled and shouted slogans including "Jews out" and "The Jews crucified Jesus," according to Germany's Central Council of Jews. Paul Spiegel, the group's head, said he was horrified and that the incident "reminds us painfully of the late 1920s," when the Nazis began their rise to power in Germany. The event re-established Juedenstrasse – an old German word for Jews' Street – in the western district of Spandau after years of deliberations by local officials. The name, dating back to the 16th century, recalls Spandau's former Jewish community. Under Nazi rule, the street was renamed for Gottfried Kinkel, a 19th-century poet and art historian who was once imprisoned in Spandau.
Fiona Macaulay, public affairs director of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, says incidents of anti-Semitism have increased 400 percent in Britain since the start of the intifada in the fall of 2000.
A one-day international conference on sanctions and divestment in London last week called for a boycott of Israel "not dissimilar to the campaign which contributed to the end of apartheid in South Africa."
Of course, it's not just Europe that is experiencing a wave of new anti-Semitism.
Avi Beker, the secretary-general of the World Jewish Congress, says in the past two years Jews around the world have experienced the worst anti-Semitism since World War II, primarily because of the effects of the Middle East conflict. In Canada, the U.S. and Europe, there have been attacks on synagogues and other Jewish centers as well as individual Jews, he says.
"Anti-Semitism, showing itself to be the most enduring and the hardiest manifestation of the racism virus, has reared its ugly head once again," says Keith Landy, the Canadian Jewish Congress president. Landy said across the world Jewish people continue to face discrimination, harassment and violence because of their faith. It is a sad day for any religion when a security guard must be posted at the door of a place of worship so people may pray in safety – a common occurrence at many Jewish synagogues, he stated. "Instead of declaring 'never again,' we find ourselves painfully asking, 'will it ever end?'"
Since October 2000, there have been 300 anti-Semitic occurrences in Canada, he said. Also, he argued, the current international attack on Israel is clear anti-Semitism.
Australia's Jewish community is also experiencing the highest level of anti-Semitism since statistics were first collected 57 years ago, figures released recently by the Executive Council of Australian Jewry showed.
Council President Jeremy Jones told United Press International there were 593 reports of anti-Semitism in the year to Sept. 30, with incidents ranging from physical and verbal assaults to firebombs thrown at synagogues and community centers, telephone threats, hate mail and e-mail.
He said there are dozens of groups perpetrating hate crimes. The main ones are the Australian League of Rights, the Adelaide Institute, neo-Nazi fringe groups and the Citizens Electoral Councils, which are followers of U.S.-based Lyndon H. LaRouche Jr.
The man with the highest profile is historian Frederick Toben of the Adelaide Institute, who, like British historian David Irving, denies the existence of the Holocaust.
Jones also lamented what he calls horrific material from Muslims in Australia and singles out Sheik Taj al Din al Hilaly, spiritual leader of Australia's Muslims and one of the country's most contentious religious figures. After he arrived from Egypt in 1982, the government tried to expel him for making statements condemned as incitement to racial hatred. A Sydney Morning Herald journalist, Alan Ramsey, wrote that these included comments that Jews are the underlying cause of all wars, use sex and abominable acts of sodomy to control the world, and that Jews had a malicious disposition toward all mankind.
But it is in Europe where anti-Semitism is getting the most attention – perhaps because the Holocaust occurred just a generation earlier in the continent.
When there was an effort by Jews in Switzerland to lift the century-old ban on the production of kosher meat, an anti-Semitic backlash erupted earlier this year.
"This is a trend that is very much worrying us," said Beker. He points out that a movement in Sweden, another European nation that bans kosher slaughter, attempted to ban ritual circumcision – the quintessential rite of passage for Jewish males. "We regard this as interference in Jewish religious practices."
Abraham Foxman, the national director of the Anti-Defamation League, said bans on kosher slaughter are the result of activism between animal-rights extremists "aided and abetted" by anti-Semitic politicians.
"Sometimes anti-Semites will use this as a vehicle to try to isolate the Jewish community by reaching out to those who are so preoccupied with animal rights," he told Jewish Week. "The key is whether or not there is a history in that country. ... What other issues of animal rights have they engaged in to prohibit cruelty? When they begin and end with kosher slaughter, that's when I become suspect."
While the Holland ban offers some loopholes to the Jewish community in the country, the Swiss ban on shechitah may go even further. The government earlier this year considered a ban on the import of kosher meat, and the Swiss Animal Association is calling for a national referendum on barring the import of such products. A poll shows 76 percent of the population would support such a move.
"It's ominous," said Rabbi Menachem Genack, the kashrut administrator for the Orthodox Union, the largest kosher-certifying organization in the world. "This kind of legislation in Europe has to be understood in the context of European history. A person would have to be extremely naive not to think that this is linked to anti-Semitism."
Melchior makes the case that kosher slaughter is actually more humane than the practices in slaughterhouses.
"The Torah forbids cruelty to animals, and the shechitah process ensures that the animal loses consciousness immediately," he explains. "We have been dealing with this issue for many years, and there are many scientific studies that back us up."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
America isn't a race. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it's just being "trendy" to hate America at the moment :/
America isn't a race. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it's just being "trendy" to hate America at the moment :/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
meh, your making things up.
youll never learn anything from debates as long as you convince yourself you already know the 'other sides' motives... especially when you assume they are so trivial as 'being cool'...
fair enough, im sure many [young] people hate america for the sake of it, but dont tar us all with that brush please.
America isn't a race. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it's just being "trendy" to hate America at the moment :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
meh, your making things up.
youll never learn anything from debates as long as you convince yourself you already know the 'other sides' motives... especially when you assume they are so trivial as 'being cool'...
fair enough, im sure many [young] people hate america for the sake of it, but dont tar us all with that brush please. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that is just it, people, particularly protesters, just join in the latest "we are opposed to X" just to be trendy or 'cool'. For example, I attended all of the protests that happened in Dunedin last year just out of sheer boredom/curiosity. I noticed that half the time the same people were turning up (very obvious in a small city like dunedin), and I even noticed the local socialist group had signs that you could just change the labels on to fit any protest. When I questioned many of these people, they hadn't the first clue what the main issues about what they were protesting were.
Quite frankly, I am more than convinced that a lot of protesters don't understand or have the first clue about any issue they are protesting (particularly anti-vivisectionists, I challenged over 30 of them one day to simple questions and they didn't have a clue how to answer or even an understanding of it). I am convinced that the latest "hate America" craze is just one of those things people are doing to be trendy and fit in with the other "young protesters" they see around.
Hell, I even heard about an American student on exchange here who on seeing one of those idiotic International Socialist posters (Something about how America is the new Nazi Germany or something) she said "Wow that is so true, I hate Bush etc", the two NZ students simply replies "What? We don't agree with that rubbish". Upon which she just said "Oh, I just wanted to fit in".
Anectodal evidence yes, but I feel that it is more than justified because many people do just hate or go along with the crowd to fit in. When someone else does something that generally annoys the anti-war crowd they'll forget about America and move onto hating something else. Just like what most protest movements seem to do.
There you are, that's my rant in a nutshell.
Incidently, I'm a New Zealander but I have enough appreciation of history to realise that hating America to be trendy isn't very intelligent. America did a lot for the defence of New Zealand (WW2) and we basically then turned around and screwed them later when we didn't need them (Draconic nuclear policy, bailing out on ANZUS etc). This doesn't mean I approve of Bush or the current American government, but I'm not about to hate <i>America</i>, IE the country, because their leader is a bit of an idiot*.
*I tried every word I could think of to put there that wouldn't sound nasty, but I absolutely couldn't find a way to express myself without using a word that essentially meant the same thing.
The recent and current tactics employed by both the US and Israeli governments are reprehensible, even if they are intended to preserve their citizens' way of life. Sometimes rather ineffectively. Any ire directed at them is at least somewhat founded. That is not the same as hating their citizens, or Jews in general, but some people are unable to differenciate.
Also, terrorists will go wherever US soldiers go. Even if Iraq wasn't a hotbed of terrorism before the war (and I'm pretty sure that was the least of their problems), it is now. Whenever we finally leave, the terrorists will move on to another US target on foreign soil (where it is much more vulnerable), and resume the hunt. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
/me is also an American Citizen
Agreed.
There is a general distaste of the USA and Israel not just in Europe, but all over the world. Its not because they are racist, but because they disagree with our foreign policy. The USA has been using underhanded tactics in meddling with other (particularly third world) countries for decades, if not longer, and that doesnt exactly earn us a good reputation. What about Israel? Arent they just innocent victims of hostile neighbors? God no. One of the primary reasons Israel is hated, is not because its people are Jewish, but because they are Invaders. The land we know as Israel was originally Palestine, and after World War 2, the West sectioned off a good sized portion, to be Israel, shafting the local Palestinians. How would you feel if one day, France decided the Louisiana Purchase was a bad idea, took the land, filled it with Frenchmen, and eventually forced the locals farther and farther away from their homes?
Are all Americans Warmongers?
Well, our government is, and we ARE a democracy...
This isnt racism, trying to play this issue as racist will only promote hate-mongering.
it's a bit strange to focus on european "racism" or something. there's people like that everywhere.
I was talking to a palestinian the other day, online... after telling him that israel and judea were under the roman thumb in the days of Christ, he told me that i was a "dumb **** zionist" and proceeded to tell me that the Bible said that Jesus went to Palestine, disregarding the whole fact that it was never called such until nearly a millenia later.
He also claimed that Israel didn't exist until the Brits put them there 50 years ago, despite the fact that Israel historically owned it up on the Canaanites (including phillistines, the palestinian namesake) nearly 1000 years BC.
Then when I asked him for his evidence, he promptly said "you can't argue with an American, because they're always right" and called me a bunch of names that this board can do without.
I was kind of disappointed in humanity.
Anyway, story mode over. It's just proof that anyone and everyone can and will be short-sighted or narrowminded at some point.
Ah yes, historical ignorance of the Judeo-palestinian war strikes again.
Invaders bah. The Jews legally bought large amounts of (the worst available) land in palestine between the 1900's -1940's. They legally migrated there under the British Mandate designed for Jews to emigrate to West Palestine. The British promised both the Arabs and the Jews individually that they could have all of Palestine if they helped fight the Nazi's. Come the end of WW2, they decided to back the Arabs instead. The Jews weren't terribly thrilled about this, considering their was only 1.2 million of them their instead of the 12 million that were supposed to have emigrated to Palestine, and the Arabs were more than a little jealous over the bad land that the Jews had converted into the best land in Palestine.
The Jews still wanted their own homeland (As promised to them by the British and the Balfour declaration), and had millions of Jews world wide who wanted it too. In 1947 the UN general assembly passed a Resolution for the establishment of an independent Jewish State in Palestine. They didnt think it would last a year. In 1948 the Jews took them up on it, and were instantly attacked by vastly superior forces. The British trained (and British lead) Arab legion of Jordan, the tanks, planes, troops and artillery of Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Iraq were sent against a hastily organised Jewish mobilisation with small arms.
These attacking forces were so convinced they would win that they told the Palestinians in the new state of Israel to leave until they had cleansed the land of the Zionists. The Jews (generally) asked them to stay. The citizens of Hafia had this request for the Palestinians:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For years we have lived together in our city, Haifa.... Do not fear: Do not destroy your homes with your own hands ... do not bring upon yourself tragedy by unnecessary evacuation and self-imposed burdens.... But in this city, yours and ours, Haifa, the gates are open for work, for life, and for peace for you and your families."3<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Over 60% of Palestinians in Israel left without seeing a single Israeli soldier. The Israeli's, with little more than FUNDRAISING by Jews in America, won the war and waited for the refugee's to return. They didnt. That was because of sentiment like this
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Emile Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Command, called for the prevention of the refugees from "return." He stated in the Beirut Telegraph on August 6, 1948: "it is inconceivable that the refugees should be sent back to their homes while they are occupied by the Jews.... It would serve as a first step toward Arab recognition of the state of Israel and Partition."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The surrounding Arab nations kept their refugees and let them fester in Godawful camps so as to make the Israeli's look bad, and as a recruiting ground for Fedayeen fighters to make terrorist attacks on the Israelis.
The Palestinians got the short end of the stick - but thats thanks to their Muslim "brothers". While I am eternally suspicious of any quote with millions of ...'s in it:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees... while it is we who made them leave.... We brought disaster upon ... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave.... We have rendered them dispossessed.... We have accustomed them to begging.... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level.... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon ... men, women and children-all this in the service of political purposes .... [36]
-- Khaled Al-Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Palestinians are where they are today through the actions of themselves and the countries surrounding Israel. Purely blaming the Israeli's is naive.
Wheee - you Palestinian friend would do well to actually READ the Bible, where the Palestinians are mentioned neither in the New Testament or the Old Testament.
At least, that's what I heard. True or not?
WWII Americans didn't focus on hating Germans, the government told us it was all the Nazi's fault, not the German citizens'.
Wheeee - your Palestinian friend would do well to actually READ the Bible, where the Palestinians are mentioned neither in the New Testament or the Old Testament. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I know... I challenged him directly for proof, either historically or by verses in the Bible (I was sure that I have never read about Palestine in the Bible, and the only parts I haven't read now are some of the minor prophets...argh...it's hard to read translated poetry :\), but he refused to do so and started calling me names.
It was sad to see him resort to using ad hominem with a vengeance.
*edit* clarification. Palestine is named after the Phillistines, which were a race that lived in the area between Gaza and...uh...the northern part of Canaan. They were fairly influential there in the 2nd millenia BC, but Israelis began to conquer the whole of Canaan around 1300 BC. If I recall correctly, Goliath was a Phillistine, and after David defeated him the Israelites routed them (as they did on other occasions).
*edit 2*<a href='http://www.palestine-net.com/history/bhist.html' target='_blank'>interesting linkeh</a>
I know about this phrase along the line "Those who do not know/learn history are doomed to repeat it." But come on, some of you guys are supporting your argument with the actions of folks from the 1940s and beyond.
Nevermind how it got started, people are being driven from their home in Palestine.
Forget about how US saved the World half a century ago, right now, it's dividing the world. May be you should bring up how the French helped you in the Revolutionary War if you want to play this card. A nation could turn into better or worse. May be, just may be, US isn't as perfect any more.
We haven't even had a good look at what is responsible for this surge. European anti-semitism has tradionally sprung from envy - the Jews are seen as the bankers, the doctors, the big merchants. They're seen as not deserving it, they're stupid, and because they're stupid must only be successful because they cheat. (And so on and so on.) Just look at the anti-semite propoganda for the last century, and you'll see that it centres on these things mainly. Do you see a similarity to anti-American stereotypes? The fat, lazy, stupid, <i>undeserving</i> American who thinks he belongs to God's own country? And the fat, hook-nosed, <i>Christ-killing</i> Jew, who thinks he's one of God's own people?
I can't help feel that Israel is just an excuse. As I've said, prejudices are instinctive rather than rational; anti-semitism existed long before the modern state of Israel. Anti-Americanism goes deeper than Iraq, as well. The truth is that anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism are just two sides of the same coin. They aren't so much interlinked as they are the same thing in different guise. The rise of one does not necessitate the rise of the other.
Anyway, <a href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/01/wsemit01.xml' target='_blank'>here</a>'s an interesting article.
Folks, <i>either</i> discuss the anti-*.*istic tendencies growing in various European populations, <i>or</i> discuss the Isreali situation, <i>or</i> discuss the GNP and comparative workloads of different nations.
But <i>never, ever</i>, blanket label nations into 'them' and 'us', and <i>never</i> accuse other discussing factions of one of said anti-*.*isms.
<span style='color:red'>***Locked.***</span>