the server i play on has aliens losing 70% of the time cuz of 1 reason. aliens almost never build rt's. i played a 3 vs 2 yesterday, with 2 aliens = really really fast rez. and NONE of them got rt's, and owned them like dawgies <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Aliens are suppose to lose in 9vs9 plus games...and I would say that I find going alien a lot more easy even if I have more than 10 years of FPS experience. But since its kinda different, it does need more practice to get better. Oh and aliens win 60 percent of the time in balanced games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 75% of all statistics are made up on the spot, it see<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, your almost right, actually they are stats on a certain site or wins...i'm sure i saw that somewhere, its about 60/40. But don't worry, you probably don't have the marine dream team if you always win in 12vs12 classic.
Servers are restricted by time, playerbase, location, and map cycle. A co or vanilla only server will yield different results to a mixed server. A euro server will give different results to an american server. A well regulated server will give different results to a lax one, a better player base different results to a less skilled one.
So server reports are meaningless. Besides, most servers form their own "style" because certain tactics will work on the playerbase better than others.
The only real truth is that its hard, if not impossible, to balance a game for both newbs AND experienced players. I know of no other game thats ever got close to it, and I've played a lot of games. The problem isn't with the game, its with the mixing of people outside of their play levels. What this has led to is distrust bordering on hatred between the parties concerned.
I've said it before, I'll say it again - informal segregation WORKS. You don't join experienced servers as a newb, you'll get diced and learn nothing, and the old hands won't thank you for it. Likewise you don't join newb servers if you're experienced - you spoil the game for others, you teach them nothing, and you drain the influx of new players. Without new players, NS GOES NOWHERE.
Good players need to get their own servers, password them if need be, and stick to your "high quality" locked games. This stops you getting annoyed at new players. Then, at an appropriate time, you scout the pubs for new players to join your little group to get a bit more experienced. Then you can release them back to the public domain a little wiser.
Older players can get FUN out of going onto newb servers, but they should bring their experience too. Either hop in the CC and try your hand at welding 6 newbs into a crack team, or go fade and give the marines a little scare... don't romp through the entire team in 30 seconds - we know you can do that, and you know you can do that, so instead why not toy with them for a bit? Give them a bit of encouragement, let them know fades aren't immortal.
That way both new players and old players get the fun they're looking for. I used to run tabletop wargames for a living, and the golden rule was you never let anyone play outside their league. The old player squashes the new one with ease, the new player gets disheartened and quits. The old players get arrogant and stagnant, no new players come in, and eventually the old players move on because they're bored with the same 5 people day after day.
Encourage the growth of the community. If you can't play with the other kids, then get your own server where you can regulate the game play. If you've a few friends then hire one and do pugs or scrims until you're in a clan (or form your own).
Experience always unbalances games. One level 30 remort can annihilate a vast group of 10th level newbs on any PvP enabled MUD. A dedicated SC player can dice a new player one handed and not break a sweat. Are these balance issues?
Want proof marines are overpowered 6v6? Sweden vs USA, 2-2, all marine wins. In the last Euro Nations cup I believe Swe vs France went for like 12 games (12-12, all marine wins) before finally someone won an alien round.
The problem is that marines have such an overwhelming advantadge at hive1.
Pubs are not a good indicator of balance at all because there are too many things that can be different. What if the aliens have one really good fade? What if your comm doesn't get armor1 until 15 minutes into the game (if you last that long)?
Why not trust the clanners who play in a stable environment where skill levels are equal or close to equal, and strategies can actually be used? What motivation would we have to lie about this?
I can trust the clanners for the 'abstract' balance, and I'll happily agree that it's important, but whoever started the rumor that pub balance isn't important, too? Yes, it can never be as refined as the balance of clangames, but it has to be approximately right, as well.
I'm honestly sick of the whole 'clan<>pub' discourse. No data derived from one environment can discard information from the other.
As an additional, lets not forget that clan play does tend to cut out a lot of tactical options. Thats not necessarily automatically a good or bad thing, but does mean that in some cases clanners really don't know what to do, as their experience extends only to the realm of high level clan play, where strange setups and player screwups are few and far between. Pub play is going to be more "interesting" in terms of testing balance - pub players do strange things, so you'll quickly find out what the bugs are.
Again, I don't think any one group is right, but they really need to be informally segregated then ever so slowly brought back together. IMHO clan play might benefit more from "harder" clan maps - less RTs, tricky lighting, more ambient sound, etc. IMHO that might be a better way to keep clan play competitive without giving too many concessions to the less skilled. Just a thought.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMHO clan play might benefit more from "harder" clan maps - less RTs, tricky lighting, more ambient sound, etc. IMHO that might be a better way to keep clan play competitive without giving too many concessions to the less skilled. Just a thought.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exept for rts, everything else can be scripted or modified in config.cfg so it offers no additional challenge <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But still nice thought <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+Jun 16 2004, 09:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Jun 16 2004, 09:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Want proof marines are overpowered 6v6? Sweden vs USA, 2-2, all marine wins. In the last Euro Nations cup I believe Swe vs France went for like 12 games (12-12, all marine wins) before finally someone won an alien round.
The problem is that marines have such an overwhelming advantadge at hive1.
Pubs are not a good indicator of balance at all because there are too many things that can be different. What if the aliens have one really good fade? What if your comm doesn't get armor1 until 15 minutes into the game (if you last that long)?
Why not trust the clanners who play in a stable environment where skill levels are equal or close to equal, and strategies can actually be used? What motivation would we have to lie about this? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I totally agree with you that the marines are overpowered during high-skilled mathces. The skulks simply do not cut it when facing marines who have a very good aim. 9-13 bullets is all it takes before one of them go down and it's shorter time to unleach the bullets than it is to bite twice.
However I disagree that the developers should only look towards the clan scene. Pubbers will always be the largest player base and ignoring them will eventually lead to the death of NS.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Jun 16 2004, 02:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Jun 16 2004, 02:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Good players need to get their own servers, password them if need be, and stick to your "high quality" locked games. This stops you getting annoyed at new players. Then, at an appropriate time, you scout the pubs for new players to join your little group to get a bit more experienced. Then you can release them back to the public domain a little wiser.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't do this, please.
This is what killed Allegiance and Tribes (in its later years, after Tribes hit the bargain bin and a massive influx of new casual players came in). I've heard that the same thing happened with Science & Industry, but I never experienced it firsthand.
Separatism is bad for the community as a whole, because it just widens the gaps between the vets and the normal players, and they become contemptuous of each other.
I registered just to post this, since I've seen what this can do with gaming communities, especially if the games have a high learning curve. Alliegiance died rather quickly after release, in part due to Mircrosoft's poor management of the game and in part due to the fact that there was a core group of gamers from the public open beta test that absolutely hated playing with the newbies, so they created their own private community so they could play very competitively together. Whenever they wandered into the more public servers, they would insult the newbies for not playing perfectly or not knowing all that the veterans knew and generally drive them away from the game.
Throwing the vets and the newbies into the same servers can frustrate both parties, but it is much better for the community as a whole, because it keeps the game from stagnating.
8v8 is pretty tough too. I hate how a level 1-2 hmg can take down a hive 2 onos with 125 bullets or less. Really goes to show that Onos are usless and rarly break stalemates at hive 1.
I love football. (soccer, for our American friends). Football is the most popular game in the world and its not balanced. Weak teams lose but occationally they will surprise stronger teams. Thats the beauty of the game; a weaker side overcoming strong opposition.
A game doesn't need balance, it needs good players, playing well, to create good fights. You may disagree with me... I'm an England fan whos been upset by may past defeats in major football tourenments at the hands of better teams than us. I dont complain that the other team had better players, I look forward to the next time we meet.
I realise I've strayed from the point but it was the only analogy I could think of. What I mean is...
If the aliens are weak it only adds to the satisfaction of winning as aliens. If one side is weaker than the other it can actually make a game more interesting. I think most English people would agree that we always support the underdog. (Underdog - For those that have not heard the phrase is the least likley team to win).
Maybe we shouldn't worry about getting the Devs to sort the balance. Instead lets try to improve all of our skills and attitude. That is what real sportsmen do and there's no reason it wouldn't work for Online games..
Anyway, thats my first ever post. Hope I haven't bored anyone too much and lets get on with playing the second most beautiful game in the world. (To our American friends again--- football (soccer) is the "the beautiful game").
<!--QuoteBegin-Fatjohn+Jun 17 2004, 07:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fatjohn @ Jun 17 2004, 07:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I love football. (soccer, for our American friends). Football is the most popular game in the world and its not balanced. Weak teams lose but occationally they will surprise stronger teams. Thats the beauty of the game; a weaker side overcoming strong opposition. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good idea, but bad analogy. Confused? Let me explain.
The first problem with your analogy is that natural-selection is not a soccer game. Both sides do not have a sweeper, three defenders, two wingmen, two mid-fielders and two forwards (substitute your limey soccor terminology <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->). One team is a group of similar units that move slowly, fire ranged weapons, and have generally permenant special abilities (ie arms ups or MT). The other is a group of diverse units that (in general) move quickly, fire melee weapons, and have usually complimentary special abilities that are not permenant.
The other main problem is really one of definition. I think it's more useful to say weaker teams <i>never</i> win. The team that wins was always better at adapting the game to their own style of play (or vice versa). Interesting games (to watch) are ones -- like soccer -- where you have the ability to think strategically (by, say, having three forwards instead of a sweeper position), tactically (move the ball up the field on the outside, then pass it inward), and -- well -- personally (how do I get past this next defender).
Better sports (and league rules matter quite a bit in this) are written so that what I call "<b>parity</b>" is achieved easily. Parity in sports is when any team in the league has a very even chance of beating any other team they come up against. If you have parity you would like a longer season to average out any flukes. The NFL (American football, you silly europeans) has a lot of parity based on a rule they devised where the worst team from the previous year gets the first pick from the next year's new recruits. You can see (through statistics) how difficult it is for a team to dominate from season to season because of this one rule.
As far as balance goes, the litmus test I would use for balance would be if, in every game of NS ever played, both teams had a 50% chance of winning, ignoring the actual players on the team. The only way you could tell that would be by collecting statistics on a large number of servers frequently. The more detailed statistics you gathered, the easier it would be to balance. (Say marines are winning 66% of all games everywhere. If you subsequently noted that the shotgun, a 10 res weapon, was being used frequently even after adv. armory was researched, and shotgun was killing a majority of aliens, then you could probably assume that nerfing the shotgun to a degree would have a noticable effect.)
If 150 servers that reported statistics were full 24 hours a day, assuming each game is about 30 min long, you could get enough data in about a week?
I dont think I got my point across very well (and I and now see these brackets looked patronising -- sorry).
Maybe it is an US / Europe thing... probably not... but I've grown up with a sport that isn't always fair. You can't pick players, you get what you can afford but it makes the win so much sweeter.
For some teams in the English premier league finishing above halfway is a major achievement. Do you see what i mean? Winning as a weeker side gives far more pleasure.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Good players need to get their own servers, password them if need be, and stick to your "high quality" locked games. This stops you getting annoyed at new players. Then, at an appropriate time, you scout the pubs for new players to join your little group to get a bit more experienced. Then you can release them back to the public domain a little wiser.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, that doesn't sound good.
If your a good player, join pug games. Usually players there are more than averagely skilled.
But lets not seperate players, yeah that could kill a community
[QUOTE]Separatism is bad for the community as a whole, because it just widens the gaps between the vets and the normal players, and they become contemptuous of each other.
I love football. (soccer, for our American friends). Football is the most popular game in the world and its not balanced. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you got this balance issue backwards. What we're talking about is with two teams that has equal skills the game should be balanced and not with two teams where one consists of newbies and the other of skilled players.
Throwing newbs and vets together is what kills the game, because in NS they just do NOT get along. Vets cant stand the newb play, newbs can stand the vets arrogance.
You only need to read back a few months to see the sheer disrespect both sides have for each other. I agree that in most other games its better to have a mix, but most other games don't need high levels of teamwork and cooperation.
It only widens the gap if the vets lock themselves in an ivory tower. What I propose is only a bigger version of what already goes on - clan only servers exist, they exist for other games, and they don't kill communities. What kills communities is if the players seal themselves away PERMANENTLY.
If either of the naysayers had taken the time to read the full post, you'd see I say that vets should still go onto pubs and recruit new players, or take turns as comm trying to meld the new players into better NS players.
Forcing them to cooperate is only going to hamstring the game. And I speak from personal experience in tabletop games where experience was the most valuable asset - new players got diced by old ones, old ones stopped playing new ones, and the community died. You have to keep them seperate and ENCOURAGE the old hands to teach their skills to the new - you don't shove them together. Otherwise the old hands blame the new players for any rules change, the new players blame the old players for always thrashing them, and then the most annoying sections from each group end up screaming for balance changes.
The majority of us out here just want to play the game, and if you keep the major moaners in their seperate camps then it makes life easier on the rest of us. I'm an ok player, I'm not likely to be kicked from a server, I'm not a moron, and thus I've a good time playing. An old hand joins a server, picks fade and just runs about slaughtering unskilled marines is going to be KICKED, and will then whine about how new players are "killing his game" (as opposed to his attitude). A new player will join a vets game, do something truly stupid, get kicked and banned and then go straight to the forum to whine about how the vets are prejudiced. Most of these problems can be averted by PREVENTION.
That way the kinder players will OPTIONALLY join newer servers to teach a bit of skill, or recruit players, the idiots won't mess up anyone's game, and overall the community will grow.
There's a hell of a difference between optional segregation and climbing into bunkers and locking the door.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only one thing that in my opinion it is unbalnaced is the fade blink. It should be an hive 3 ability. Stop, only this, ns rox!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades blink is the only chance aliens have at one hive. Without blink fades would be patheticly useless. What, acid at first hive? That would make me quit ns, almost.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Throwing newbs and vets together is what kills the game, because in NS they just do NOT get along. Vets cant stand the newb play, newbs can stand the vets arrogance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats true, but it doesn't really kill the game if vets act respectively. I show a lot of tips and tricks to new players, or just the ones wanting to improve. Some vets are too selfish and stupid. They don't use their res, and go fade after 4 minutes. Then they ask for dc's.
Last time that happened, I flammed the fade and asked the whole team to NOT drop dc's. The guy was mad, but no one gave a $&%. That was a good lesson.
If i see marine team sucks, i'll go gorge. Leave a chance for newbies to fade and practice. I'll assite there attacks and give em tips, and when they succed I praise them for the hard work and when they die, I encourage them and if I saw the scene, I'll probalbly tell him why he died and what could he change to help him.
Vets should be nicer and newbies more willing to learn from the nice vets.
Necrosis, 99% of vets are neither arrogant nor unwilling to teach. Go on IRC and pm any clanner and there is a very high chance they will respond and help you out... as long as you are nice.
How is a vet going Fade on a pub an example of him being an ****? It's much better than the standard alien pub tactic of spamming ocs/rts everywhere, and not getting higher lifeforms until hive2 or hive3. Obviously you need some RTs, but if you have a 8 man team and you have like 6 nodes and 5 OCs, a guy going fade doesn't mean he's a "damn vet res****"
<!--QuoteBegin-[QcBs]God Killer+Jun 17 2004, 11:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([QcBs]God Killer @ Jun 17 2004, 11:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Good players need to get their own servers, password them if need be, and stick to your "high quality" locked games. This stops you getting annoyed at new players. Then, at an appropriate time, you scout the pubs for new players to join your little group to get a bit more experienced. Then you can release them back to the public domain a little wiser.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, that doesn't sound good.
If your a good player, join pug games. Usually players there are more than averagely skilled.
But lets not seperate players, yeah that could kill a community
[QUOTE]Separatism is bad for the community as a whole, because it just widens the gaps between the vets and the normal players, and they become contemptuous of each other.
Exactly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> you make it seem like vets are better then everyone else....ive yet to see a good, nice vet
God Killer, thats what I'm trying to say - vets acting responsibly and training up new people, instead of butchering them and mocking their poor play.
I don't understand how a person of higher skill gets a thrill out of annihilating someone clearly nowhere near their level. I've played games where the opponent has been poor and unfortunately has drawn me in a ladder, but I don't get any thrill out of destroying him. If someone can explain how kicking people when they're down is fun, please tell me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Necrosis, 99% of vets are neither arrogant nor unwilling to teach. Go on IRC and pm any clanner and there is a very high chance they will respond and help you out... as long as you are nice. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely, I totally agree. I'm not putting the boot into vets OR beginners. There's a lot of good people out there, no question and no debate about it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How is a vet going Fade on a pub an example of him being an ****? It's much better than the standard alien pub tactic of spamming ocs/rts everywhere, and not getting higher lifeforms until hive2 or hive3 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, now here is where it starts... putting the boot into "poor" pub play. My solution would be to get on the pubs and help those players out, show them how the game can be played *better*.
To your Fade question, imho its totally unsporting for a clan level Fade to be let loose on newb marines. They stand NO chance. Lets be honest here, a clan fade can afford very little margin for error, and is practicing regularly. We're not talking about hoarding, we're talking about slaughtering the opposing team which only annoys players and teaches them nothing. There's no challenge. THAT is what personally ticks me off - players who grief pub servers for no reason.
I've played on mixed servers, I've seen people come on and hoard for fade, and I'm fine with that since most will say "hive or fade" or at the very least will say they're a good fade and actually MEAN it. I don't like fading, I prefer gorge, but I'm not a smacktard who drops OC walls at the hive and SC chambers, then laughs as the new players inevitable die in droves.
If you're a veteran, a better player, whatever, you should be passing your skill along to the new people, by showing them HOW to comm, what a good startup is, and on the alien side by dropping the right chamber for the right situation, by offering suggestions on how to break bases, etc. If you get annoyed because noone's listening, then move on to another server - don't decide "to hell with it" and then go Fade for the purpose of thrashing the marines. What happens then is that decent marine players get annoyed at the vets. The crappy alien players assume that their poor play must have been fine, since they've won. If you find yourself on a crap alien team, join the marines and thrash the aliens. Its much more constructive.
Ditto on the marines - try and comm a good victory, try and offer suggestions to the comm, but know your place. I've seen games where people have hogged the Chair and only given upgrades to their mates - that doesn't endear clans to the pubber. Likewise a lot of backchat only leads to comms getting NOWHERE because noone is following his orders. Act responsibly, try and follow their strange schemes, and next game YOU get in the chair to show them how its done.
For the pubbers, all I can say is that clanners and veterans are NOT as bad as you may think. We've all heard the horror stories but that is ONLY because people naturally enjoy spreading bad news. I've seen clanners and vets do fantastic things in games, I've seen whole teams stop so that a new comm can find his feet. I've seen ad hoc training ingame and also seen vets leading newb charges to take hives, MS, etc. Noone hears about those because we just accept them.. but we've all heard the bad press because its more fun to pass on.
If you're a pubber, accept that most clanners and vets have played more than you, and have a better grasp of the fast track to winning. For clanners, realise that noone enjoys getting destroyed just for you to be top of the scoreboard, or so you can brag to your friends that you singlehandedly raped a MS full of ammo humpers. Educate the newbs, so that in 6 months time you'll have a better challenge from skilled players - not a pile of dead servers and a community of 6 people.
Edit - again, if you want to see how bad the situation is, look at this thread. How are you going to immediately integrate "pubbers know nothing" and "you make it seem like vets are better"? Segregation then integration.
lol NS has to be the only game in the world where a good player pubbing is called cheap/lame/hacker/scripter/unsportsmanlike. Sigh. Learn on your own or go ask vets on IRC if you want to learn. It's not like all the vets were taught how to play. Don't ask for skill to be handed to you on a silver platter go out and earn it yourself... and don't whine about it when someone skilled kicks your ****.
Comments
Lol, your almost right, actually they are stats on a certain site or wins...i'm sure i saw that somewhere, its about 60/40. But don't worry, you probably don't have the marine dream team if you always win in 12vs12 classic.
Servers are restricted by time, playerbase, location, and map cycle. A co or vanilla only server will yield different results to a mixed server. A euro server will give different results to an american server. A well regulated server will give different results to a lax one, a better player base different results to a less skilled one.
So server reports are meaningless. Besides, most servers form their own "style" because certain tactics will work on the playerbase better than others.
The only real truth is that its hard, if not impossible, to balance a game for both newbs AND experienced players. I know of no other game thats ever got close to it, and I've played a lot of games. The problem isn't with the game, its with the mixing of people outside of their play levels. What this has led to is distrust bordering on hatred between the parties concerned.
I've said it before, I'll say it again - informal segregation WORKS. You don't join experienced servers as a newb, you'll get diced and learn nothing, and the old hands won't thank you for it. Likewise you don't join newb servers if you're experienced - you spoil the game for others, you teach them nothing, and you drain the influx of new players. Without new players, NS GOES NOWHERE.
Good players need to get their own servers, password them if need be, and stick to your "high quality" locked games. This stops you getting annoyed at new players. Then, at an appropriate time, you scout the pubs for new players to join your little group to get a bit more experienced. Then you can release them back to the public domain a little wiser.
Older players can get FUN out of going onto newb servers, but they should bring their experience too. Either hop in the CC and try your hand at welding 6 newbs into a crack team, or go fade and give the marines a little scare... don't romp through the entire team in 30 seconds - we know you can do that, and you know you can do that, so instead why not toy with them for a bit? Give them a bit of encouragement, let them know fades aren't immortal.
That way both new players and old players get the fun they're looking for. I used to run tabletop wargames for a living, and the golden rule was you never let anyone play outside their league. The old player squashes the new one with ease, the new player gets disheartened and quits. The old players get arrogant and stagnant, no new players come in, and eventually the old players move on because they're bored with the same 5 people day after day.
Encourage the growth of the community. If you can't play with the other kids, then get your own server where you can regulate the game play. If you've a few friends then hire one and do pugs or scrims until you're in a clan (or form your own).
Experience always unbalances games. One level 30 remort can annihilate a vast group of 10th level newbs on any PvP enabled MUD. A dedicated SC player can dice a new player one handed and not break a sweat. Are these balance issues?
Just my thoughts on the subject.
The problem is that marines have such an overwhelming advantadge at hive1.
Pubs are not a good indicator of balance at all because there are too many things that can be different. What if the aliens have one really good fade? What if your comm doesn't get armor1 until 15 minutes into the game (if you last that long)?
Why not trust the clanners who play in a stable environment where skill levels are equal or close to equal, and strategies can actually be used? What motivation would we have to lie about this?
I'm honestly sick of the whole 'clan<>pub' discourse. No data derived from one environment can discard information from the other.
As an additional, lets not forget that clan play does tend to cut out a lot of tactical options. Thats not necessarily automatically a good or bad thing, but does mean that in some cases clanners really don't know what to do, as their experience extends only to the realm of high level clan play, where strange setups and player screwups are few and far between. Pub play is going to be more "interesting" in terms of testing balance - pub players do strange things, so you'll quickly find out what the bugs are.
Again, I don't think any one group is right, but they really need to be informally segregated then ever so slowly brought back together. IMHO clan play might benefit more from "harder" clan maps - less RTs, tricky lighting, more ambient sound, etc. IMHO that might be a better way to keep clan play competitive without giving too many concessions to the less skilled. Just a thought.
Exept for rts, everything else can be scripted or modified in config.cfg so it offers no additional challenge <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But still nice thought <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Bahaha! ^^
Balance is relative to the server you play on.
And Unchaining chambers through experience seems to be quite balanced.
I only play on one server for the past year and a half and I am quite comfortable there with the balance.
The problem is that marines have such an overwhelming advantadge at hive1.
Pubs are not a good indicator of balance at all because there are too many things that can be different. What if the aliens have one really good fade? What if your comm doesn't get armor1 until 15 minutes into the game (if you last that long)?
Why not trust the clanners who play in a stable environment where skill levels are equal or close to equal, and strategies can actually be used? What motivation would we have to lie about this? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree with you that the marines are overpowered during high-skilled mathces. The skulks simply do not cut it when facing marines who have a very good aim. 9-13 bullets is all it takes before one of them go down and it's shorter time to unleach the bullets than it is to bite twice.
However I disagree that the developers should only look towards the clan scene. Pubbers will always be the largest player base and ignoring them will eventually lead to the death of NS.
Don't do this, please.
This is what killed Allegiance and Tribes (in its later years, after Tribes hit the bargain bin and a massive influx of new casual players came in). I've heard that the same thing happened with Science & Industry, but I never experienced it firsthand.
Separatism is bad for the community as a whole, because it just widens the gaps between the vets and the normal players, and they become contemptuous of each other.
I registered just to post this, since I've seen what this can do with gaming communities, especially if the games have a high learning curve. Alliegiance died rather quickly after release, in part due to Mircrosoft's poor management of the game and in part due to the fact that there was a core group of gamers from the public open beta test that absolutely hated playing with the newbies, so they created their own private community so they could play very competitively together. Whenever they wandered into the more public servers, they would insult the newbies for not playing perfectly or not knowing all that the veterans knew and generally drive them away from the game.
Throwing the vets and the newbies into the same servers can frustrate both parties, but it is much better for the community as a whole, because it keeps the game from stagnating.
I love football. (soccer, for our American friends). Football is the most popular game in the world and its not balanced. Weak teams lose but occationally they will surprise stronger teams. Thats the beauty of the game; a weaker side overcoming strong opposition.
A game doesn't need balance, it needs good players, playing well, to create good fights. You may disagree with me... I'm an England fan whos been upset by may past defeats in major football tourenments at the hands of better teams than us. I dont complain that the other team had better players, I look forward to the next time we meet.
I realise I've strayed from the point but it was the only analogy I could think of. What I mean is...
If the aliens are weak it only adds to the satisfaction of winning as aliens. If one side is weaker than the other it can actually make a game more interesting. I think most English people would agree that we always support the underdog. (Underdog - For those that have not heard the phrase is the least likley team to win).
Maybe we shouldn't worry about getting the Devs to sort the balance. Instead lets try to improve all of our skills and attitude. That is what real sportsmen do and there's no reason it wouldn't work for Online games..
Anyway, thats my first ever post. Hope I haven't bored anyone too much and lets get on with playing the second most beautiful game in the world. (To our American friends again--- football (soccer) is the "the beautiful game").
have you got it yet...
one team has better players that make up the 11 than the other team. you could compare Zidane to a Fade and Nicky Butt to a LM LMG..
but lets not get to far into the football analogy.
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Good idea, but bad analogy. Confused? Let me explain.
The first problem with your analogy is that natural-selection is not a soccer game. Both sides do not have a sweeper, three defenders, two wingmen, two mid-fielders and two forwards (substitute your limey soccor terminology <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->). One team is a group of similar units that move slowly, fire ranged weapons, and have generally permenant special abilities (ie arms ups or MT). The other is a group of diverse units that (in general) move quickly, fire melee weapons, and have usually complimentary special abilities that are not permenant.
The other main problem is really one of definition. I think it's more useful to say weaker teams <i>never</i> win. The team that wins was always better at adapting the game to their own style of play (or vice versa). Interesting games (to watch) are ones -- like soccer -- where you have the ability to think strategically (by, say, having three forwards instead of a sweeper position), tactically (move the ball up the field on the outside, then pass it inward), and -- well -- personally (how do I get past this next defender).
Better sports (and league rules matter quite a bit in this) are written so that what I call "<b>parity</b>" is achieved easily. Parity in sports is when any team in the league has a very even chance of beating any other team they come up against. If you have parity you would like a longer season to average out any flukes. The NFL (American football, you silly europeans) has a lot of parity based on a rule they devised where the worst team from the previous year gets the first pick from the next year's new recruits. You can see (through statistics) how difficult it is for a team to dominate from season to season because of this one rule.
As far as balance goes, the litmus test I would use for balance would be if, in every game of NS ever played, both teams had a 50% chance of winning, ignoring the actual players on the team. The only way you could tell that would be by collecting statistics on a large number of servers frequently. The more detailed statistics you gathered, the easier it would be to balance. (Say marines are winning 66% of all games everywhere. If you subsequently noted that the shotgun, a 10 res weapon, was being used frequently even after adv. armory was researched, and shotgun was killing a majority of aliens, then you could probably assume that nerfing the shotgun to a degree would have a noticable effect.)
If 150 servers that reported statistics were full 24 hours a day, assuming each game is about 30 min long, you could get enough data in about a week?
Maybe it is an US / Europe thing... probably not... but I've grown up with a sport that isn't always fair. You can't pick players, you get what you can afford but it makes the win so much sweeter.
For some teams in the English premier league finishing above halfway is a major achievement. Do you see what i mean? Winning as a weeker side gives far more pleasure.
Nah, that doesn't sound good.
If your a good player, join pug games. Usually players there are more than averagely skilled.
But lets not seperate players, yeah that could kill a community
[QUOTE]Separatism is bad for the community as a whole, because it just widens the gaps between the vets and the normal players, and they become contemptuous of each other.
Exactly.
I love football. (soccer, for our American friends). Football is the most popular game in the world and its not balanced. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you got this balance issue backwards. What we're talking about is with two teams that has equal skills the game should be balanced and not with two teams where one consists of newbies and the other of skilled players.
You only need to read back a few months to see the sheer disrespect both sides have for each other. I agree that in most other games its better to have a mix, but most other games don't need high levels of teamwork and cooperation.
It only widens the gap if the vets lock themselves in an ivory tower. What I propose is only a bigger version of what already goes on - clan only servers exist, they exist for other games, and they don't kill communities. What kills communities is if the players seal themselves away PERMANENTLY.
If either of the naysayers had taken the time to read the full post, you'd see I say that vets should still go onto pubs and recruit new players, or take turns as comm trying to meld the new players into better NS players.
Forcing them to cooperate is only going to hamstring the game. And I speak from personal experience in tabletop games where experience was the most valuable asset - new players got diced by old ones, old ones stopped playing new ones, and the community died. You have to keep them seperate and ENCOURAGE the old hands to teach their skills to the new - you don't shove them together. Otherwise the old hands blame the new players for any rules change, the new players blame the old players for always thrashing them, and then the most annoying sections from each group end up screaming for balance changes.
The majority of us out here just want to play the game, and if you keep the major moaners in their seperate camps then it makes life easier on the rest of us. I'm an ok player, I'm not likely to be kicked from a server, I'm not a moron, and thus I've a good time playing. An old hand joins a server, picks fade and just runs about slaughtering unskilled marines is going to be KICKED, and will then whine about how new players are "killing his game" (as opposed to his attitude). A new player will join a vets game, do something truly stupid, get kicked and banned and then go straight to the forum to whine about how the vets are prejudiced. Most of these problems can be averted by PREVENTION.
That way the kinder players will OPTIONALLY join newer servers to teach a bit of skill, or recruit players, the idiots won't mess up anyone's game, and overall the community will grow.
There's a hell of a difference between optional segregation and climbing into bunkers and locking the door.
Fades blink is the only chance aliens have at one hive. Without blink fades would be patheticly useless. What, acid at first hive? That would make me quit ns, almost.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Throwing newbs and vets together is what kills the game, because in NS they just do NOT get along. Vets cant stand the newb play, newbs can stand the vets arrogance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats true, but it doesn't really kill the game if vets act respectively. I show a lot of tips and tricks to new players, or just the ones wanting to improve. Some vets are too selfish and stupid. They don't use their res, and go fade after 4 minutes. Then they ask for dc's.
Last time that happened, I flammed the fade and asked the whole team to NOT drop dc's. The guy was mad, but no one gave a $&%. That was a good lesson.
If i see marine team sucks, i'll go gorge. Leave a chance for newbies to fade and practice. I'll assite there attacks and give em tips, and when they succed I praise them for the hard work and when they die, I encourage them and if I saw the scene, I'll probalbly tell him why he died and what could he change to help him.
Vets should be nicer and newbies more willing to learn from the nice vets.
How is a vet going Fade on a pub an example of him being an ****? It's much better than the standard alien pub tactic of spamming ocs/rts everywhere, and not getting higher lifeforms until hive2 or hive3. Obviously you need some RTs, but if you have a 8 man team and you have like 6 nodes and 5 OCs, a guy going fade doesn't mean he's a "damn vet res****"
Nah, that doesn't sound good.
If your a good player, join pug games. Usually players there are more than averagely skilled.
But lets not seperate players, yeah that could kill a community
[QUOTE]Separatism is bad for the community as a whole, because it just widens the gaps between the vets and the normal players, and they become contemptuous of each other.
Exactly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
you make it seem like vets are better then everyone else....ive yet to see a good, nice vet
I don't understand how a person of higher skill gets a thrill out of annihilating someone clearly nowhere near their level. I've played games where the opponent has been poor and unfortunately has drawn me in a ladder, but I don't get any thrill out of destroying him. If someone can explain how kicking people when they're down is fun, please tell me.
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Necrosis, 99% of vets are neither arrogant nor unwilling to teach. Go on IRC and pm any clanner and there is a very high chance they will respond and help you out... as long as you are nice.
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Absolutely, I totally agree. I'm not putting the boot into vets OR beginners. There's a lot of good people out there, no question and no debate about it.
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How is a vet going Fade on a pub an example of him being an ****? It's much better than the standard alien pub tactic of spamming ocs/rts everywhere, and not getting higher lifeforms until hive2 or hive3
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See, now here is where it starts... putting the boot into "poor" pub play. My solution would be to get on the pubs and help those players out, show them how the game can be played *better*.
To your Fade question, imho its totally unsporting for a clan level Fade to be let loose on newb marines. They stand NO chance. Lets be honest here, a clan fade can afford very little margin for error, and is practicing regularly. We're not talking about hoarding, we're talking about slaughtering the opposing team which only annoys players and teaches them nothing. There's no challenge. THAT is what personally ticks me off - players who grief pub servers for no reason.
I've played on mixed servers, I've seen people come on and hoard for fade, and I'm fine with that since most will say "hive or fade" or at the very least will say they're a good fade and actually MEAN it. I don't like fading, I prefer gorge, but I'm not a smacktard who drops OC walls at the hive and SC chambers, then laughs as the new players inevitable die in droves.
If you're a veteran, a better player, whatever, you should be passing your skill along to the new people, by showing them HOW to comm, what a good startup is, and on the alien side by dropping the right chamber for the right situation, by offering suggestions on how to break bases, etc. If you get annoyed because noone's listening, then move on to another server - don't decide "to hell with it" and then go Fade for the purpose of thrashing the marines. What happens then is that decent marine players get annoyed at the vets. The crappy alien players assume that their poor play must have been fine, since they've won. If you find yourself on a crap alien team, join the marines and thrash the aliens. Its much more constructive.
Ditto on the marines - try and comm a good victory, try and offer suggestions to the comm, but know your place. I've seen games where people have hogged the Chair and only given upgrades to their mates - that doesn't endear clans to the pubber. Likewise a lot of backchat only leads to comms getting NOWHERE because noone is following his orders. Act responsibly, try and follow their strange schemes, and next game YOU get in the chair to show them how its done.
For the pubbers, all I can say is that clanners and veterans are NOT as bad as you may think. We've all heard the horror stories but that is ONLY because people naturally enjoy spreading bad news. I've seen clanners and vets do fantastic things in games, I've seen whole teams stop so that a new comm can find his feet. I've seen ad hoc training ingame and also seen vets leading newb charges to take hives, MS, etc. Noone hears about those because we just accept them.. but we've all heard the bad press because its more fun to pass on.
If you're a pubber, accept that most clanners and vets have played more than you, and have a better grasp of the fast track to winning. For clanners, realise that noone enjoys getting destroyed just for you to be top of the scoreboard, or so you can brag to your friends that you singlehandedly raped a MS full of ammo humpers. Educate the newbs, so that in 6 months time you'll have a better challenge from skilled players - not a pile of dead servers and a community of 6 people.
Edit - again, if you want to see how bad the situation is, look at this thread. How are you going to immediately integrate "pubbers know nothing" and "you make it seem like vets are better"? Segregation then integration.