NarfwakJoin Date: 2002-11-02Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin-Duff-Man+Jun 25 2004, 07:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Duff-Man @ Jun 25 2004, 07:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Saw him on the Daily Show last night and he just reaffirmed how much I like the guy. Jon Steward asked him, "Are you fair?" and he immediately responded with a No. Just made me laugh, thinking about, on the flipside of the coin, hearing "Fair and Balanced News" from Fox all the time, while he freely acknowledges having a slant to his films. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I had a good laugh at that, too. I'm hoping to see it some time this weekend, perhaps with my bro.
<!--QuoteBegin-jumpingjoda+Jun 26 2004, 08:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jumpingjoda @ Jun 26 2004, 08:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To all moore haters: You think all he says is wrong? Well you saw the first scene in that bank? While he opened an account and got a weapon as a gift.... IN A BANK!
And did you see the scene where he was talking to that kid who knew the colombine murders? Or the scene where he talked to the NRA president... Why he had no answers? As moore asled him few questions he just left without saying anything, that was the most impressive sceene i ever saw in a DOCUMENTARY! Yes it is a documentary. Bowlong for colombine is NOT only a "say no to bush" movie, it shows some major problems that the USA have, and which should not be looked over. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In a bank, yes... a legally qualified arms dealer that did a background check and required a TEN THOUSAND DOLLAR CD to get that gun. "IN A BANK" nothing.
As for the NRA president thing, you can read about that on the Hardy site, I think even Moore himself appologized for that scene at one point.
For all those saying that Moore never calls it a documentary, I wish you had seen the Letterman interview. He calls it nothing but a documentary. When asked if the movie could even be skewed, he was asked if someone could come on the show and say "this isn't really how it happened," at first he said "no" but later said "any conservative right-wingers can debate me on any point." How this will interact with Michael Wilson's in production movie called "Michael Moore Hates America," I don't know.. since the premise of that movie is pretty much "this figure head is reclusive"
<!--QuoteBegin-404NotFound+Jun 26 2004, 11:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (404NotFound @ Jun 26 2004, 11:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When asked if the movie could even be skewed, he was asked if someone could come on the show and say "this isn't really how it happened," at first he said "no" but later said "any conservative right-wingers can debate me on any point." How this will interact with Michael Wilson's in production movie called "Michael Moore Hates America," I don't know.. since the premise of that movie is pretty much "this figure head is reclusive" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How will it interact with the movie/documentary/thingy?
Well, I suppose it will start some controversy. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyways, I'm not wasting my money on Moore. However, I will download the movie onto my hard drive so my intellectual chums and I can laugh. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I don't know what people expect from Moore, he is not a saint or the savior of us all. He is human ffs <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> . He is a man that sees something wrong (in his optinion) and makes it public to all of us. Where is the problem.
And i don't know why he should appologise for that interview with the NRA president. He asked him just few questions that were asked by the press also, and why he had no answers? He knew that moore was coming to interview him.
I am so awed at the people still hiding behind the Bowling for Truth site... With that out of the way,
I saw the movie last night in a packed theatre. The line for the next showing snaked around the theatre.
The film in some ways is much better than BFC, but perhaps not as satisfying. Here, Moore is more in the background, letting interview and news segments taking precedence over himself. While there is no climax as in BFC's Heston interview, one already gets the sense that the film really doesn't need one. The film's bias is not towards Republicans, but towards a failure of intelligence and leadership. Using actual archival footage from the media, Moore constructs an argument as to why Bush wanted us to go to war: money and the preservation of the staus quo. Using very comical and deft editing, we see how the administration is seeped in bureaucracy and contradiction. The film is very biased. It shows a peaceful Iraq before the bombings, something that fails to recognize Saddam being akin to a present-day Mussolini. Nontheless, the bombs never hit Saddam, it hit families and children. Soldiers interviewed decry their own demoralization of the conflict. Some facts exposed by F9/11: *Facing mass demonstrations, Bush is the only president of the nation not to have walked the last four blocks in his inauguration. *Saudi interests are composed of 7% of the U.S. economy, including all of CitiBank. *Bush had blocked both a Congressional investigation and an independent investigation of 9/11 that year. *Less troops were sent to Afghanistan than there are policemen in Manhattan. *Despite the Dept. of Homeland Security, only one trooper patrols the shore of Oregon. *Taliban leaders visited Bush Senior and other businessmen on September 11th. *The Bin Laden family faced no questioning when they left U.S. soil. *Iraq has never killed an American citizen in peace-time. *Bush cut Army salaries and Veteran benefits. *You can carry lighters and matches on a plane...but only six of them. *You can make more money driving for Halliburton than fighting in Iraq. Notice how these facts can easily be researched? Moore does not form his own conjectures, but rather let the facts speak for themselves. The documentary begs the question of the preservation of the status quo: Why should the poor man, to this day, fight the rich man's war? Why should kids in Flint, Michigan, unable to afford college, should risk lives to enjoy that priviledge? How moral is making billions of dollars in war-time? There are some moments that are very funny, and some moments that are shocking and sad. One such moment was the story of Lila Liscomb, a patriotic mother whose ideals are shattered when she loses her son in a Black Hawk crash. President Bush does not have to answer to Michael Moore, but he has to answer to families like Lila Liscomb.
The film received a standing ovation in the theatre, and my vote for the first most important and controversial film of the first decade of the 21st Century.
P.S.: The last entity to ever conquer Afghanistan was Alexander the Great.
<!--QuoteBegin-Javert+Jun 26 2004, 08:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Javert @ Jun 26 2004, 08:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> *Facing mass demonstrations, Bush is the only president of the nation not to have walked the last four blocks in his inauguration. *Saudi interests are composed of 7% of the U.S. economy, including all of CitiBank. *Bush had blocked both a Congressional investigation and an independent investigation of 9/11 that year. *Less troops were sent to Afghanistan than there are policemen in Manhattan. *Despite the Dept. of Homeland Security, only one trooper patrols the shore of Oregon. *Taliban leaders visited Bush Senior and other businessmen on September 11th. *The Bin Laden family faced no questioning when they left U.S. soil. *Iraq has never killed an American citizen in peace-time. *Bush cut Army salaries and Veteran benefits. *You can carry lighters and matches on a plane...but only six of them. *You can make more money driving for Halliburton than fighting in Iraq. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Most of the theese facts i know from the books i read. But i can't wait to see them on widescreen <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->President Bush does not have to answer to Michael Moore, but he has to answer to families like Lila Liscomb.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
forgive me but I don't really seem to see what point you're trying to make here. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Some main points of my post (I'll admit to my verbosity):
*This is a biased film, but not against Republicans, but against a failure of a Presidency.
*There are questions that need to be answered that are not answered, whether it be elimination of red tape, relationships (personal and economic) with Saudi Arabia, or declassification of important documents.
*Moore lets facts/archival footage speak for themselves more than he himself speaks.
*The war is not about terrorism or WMD's, it is about preservation of a staus quo that socioeconomically divides our society, and about businesses making money that is not helping Iraq nor our troops.
*We screwed up. (May substitue word "screwed" with other words in your mind that I can't type here.)
I haven't really taken this movie seriously at all when Moore's big "revolutionary point" is that the bin laden family was secretly flown out of the country during the no-fly time after 9/11... <a href='http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flight.htm' target='_blank'>this</a> pretty much takes the steam out of that point, and I read it quite awhile ago.
Do I trust Snopes over Michael Moore? After watching 10 minutes of Canadian Bacon and seeing even screen caps from BFC, and having read almost every Snopes story, I say yes. Totally and 100% yes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-404NotFound+Jun 26 2004, 11:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (404NotFound @ Jun 26 2004, 11:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When asked if the movie could even be skewed, he was asked if someone could come on the show and say "this isn't really how it happened," at first he said "no" but later said "any conservative right-wingers can debate me on any point." How this will interact with Michael Wilson's in production movie called "Michael Moore Hates America," I don't know.. since the premise of that movie is pretty much "this figure head is reclusive" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How will it interact with the movie/documentary/thingy?
Well, I suppose it will start some controversy. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Or maybe I don't understand the question.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you may or may not know, there is a man named Michael Wilson making a 'documentary' (dunno for sure, haven't heard any reports of validity) of his own, in a Roger & Me style, where he explores Michael Moore's views on America and tries to track him down. I don't really like the title of the movie, since Moore's view on America is unclear to me, even after all that i've read about him, but according to the site that title is just a 'discussion point.' (<a href='http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/' target='_blank'>link here</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-404NotFound+Jun 26 2004, 05:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (404NotFound @ Jun 26 2004, 05:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I haven't really taken this movie seriously at all when Moore's big "revolutionary point" is that the bin laden family was secretly flown out of the country during the no-fly time after 9/11... <a href='http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flight.htm' target='_blank'>this</a> pretty much takes the steam out of that point, and I read it quite awhile ago.
Do I trust Snopes over Michael Moore? After watching 10 minutes of Canadian Bacon and seeing even screen caps from BFC, and having read almost every Snopes story, I say yes. Totally and 100% yes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It has been published countless times that the United States government financed the flights of both the Bin Laden family members that were in the United States at the time of the attack and the Saudi royal family members - and not just out of the state, but to their own countries. Not that in your fantastic snopes article, the one point they leave 'undetermined' is the one and only point in question ( "<i> During that same period the U.S. government allowed bin Laden family members to fly out of the U.S.: Undetermined.</i>) There was never any question of whether they flew about the country - I cna guarantee that plenty of higher-ups and rich folks flew around on private jets to their heart's content, granted they knew the right people).
But however the point is still this - Fahrenheit 9/11 only claimed that the Government funded the removal of these people back to europe and asia - he never said once that they refused to let the FBI question the people (Moore actually just states that they DIDN'T question them, for a reason that can be taken as conspiratorial or not, depending on the gullibility of the watcher). He never mentioned that the FBI particularly <i>wanted</i> to question them, either, but kept his mouth shut, away form making any definite claims.
In conclusion, Snopes can be just as underhanded and vague as Michael Moore is infamous for being and should be taken with the precise same amount of credence.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dubbilex+Jun 26 2004, 06:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dubbilex @ Jun 26 2004, 06:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It has been published countless times that the United States government financed the flights of both the Bin Laden family members that were in the United States at the time of the attack and the Saudi royal family members - and not just out of the state, but to their own countries. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And the right of return is what exactly? Oh I forgot, <b>doing things the UN way is bad</b>. Friggin' sorry.
<!--QuoteBegin-404NotFound+Jun 26 2004, 05:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (404NotFound @ Jun 26 2004, 05:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I haven't really taken this movie seriously at all when Moore's big "revolutionary point" is that the bin laden family was secretly flown out of the country during the no-fly time after 9/11... <a href='http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flight.htm' target='_blank'>this</a> pretty much takes the steam out of that point, and I read it quite awhile ago.
Do I trust Snopes over Michael Moore? After watching 10 minutes of Canadian Bacon and seeing even screen caps from BFC, and having read almost every Snopes story, I say yes. Totally and 100% yes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-404NotFound+Jun 26 2004, 11:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (404NotFound @ Jun 26 2004, 11:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When asked if the movie could even be skewed, he was asked if someone could come on the show and say "this isn't really how it happened," at first he said "no" but later said "any conservative right-wingers can debate me on any point." How this will interact with Michael Wilson's in production movie called "Michael Moore Hates America," I don't know.. since the premise of that movie is pretty much "this figure head is reclusive" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How will it interact with the movie/documentary/thingy?
Well, I suppose it will start some controversy. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Or maybe I don't understand the question.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you may or may not know, there is a man named Michael Wilson making a 'documentary' (dunno for sure, haven't heard any reports of validity) of his own, in a Roger & Me style, where he explores Michael Moore's views on America and tries to track him down. I don't really like the title of the movie, since Moore's view on America is unclear to me, even after all that i've read about him, but according to the site that title is just a 'discussion point.' (<a href='http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/' target='_blank'>link here</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Go watch one of Moore's earlier movies, "The Big One". He fights a lot for the little guy, makes Clinton look bad, and has a foot race with the president of Nike.... or tries to...
<!--QuoteBegin-404NotFound+Jun 26 2004, 06:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (404NotFound @ Jun 26 2004, 06:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How this will interact with Michael Wilson's in production movie called "Michael Moore Hates America," I don't know.. since the premise of that movie is pretty much "this figure head is reclusive" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So having an opinion is now known as hating his country?
Anyway many are complaining about his presented arguments that are so biased in his point of view. Did you ever do debates? In debates, you show YOUR side. You don't show both, you only present arguments favorable for you. You still have to be aware of the opposing ideas and rebuttals but giving out an unbiased debate is like not even trying to convince. All you have to know is that everything has bias, as long as you don't research into it. Medias say what they want, the way they want it. (ie. "Americans suffered heavy casualties" = 3 soldiers dead, while "a group of terrorists attacked a group of Americans but got repelled" = 20+ soldiers dead)
I have no problem with bias or showing a point of view, but to be so dead-strong to say that your point is the truth and say it's impossible to think otherwise is exactly what Moore is doing, and, frankly, his Oscar win seemed to make people think that he is telling the truth. I don't like that; and not because I don't like what he says, but because it really gives a false impression to others of what America is like to both Americans and foreigners who take his words as the be all and end all. A 20 minute standing ovation doesn't happen because people think a film has a unique point of a view.
<!--QuoteBegin-404NotFound+Jun 27 2004, 01:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (404NotFound @ Jun 27 2004, 01:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have no problem with bias or showing a point of view, but to be so dead-strong to say that your point is the truth and say it's impossible to think otherwise is exactly what Moore is doing, and, frankly, his Oscar win seemed to make people think that he is telling the truth. I don't like that; and not because I don't like what he says, but because it really gives a false impression to others of what America is like to both Americans and foreigners who take his words as the be all and end all. A 20 minute standing ovation doesn't happen because people think a film has a unique point of a view. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So what exactly is not true, and what are the usa exactly? Explain it in an anti moore way.
<!--QuoteBegin-404NotFound+Jun 26 2004, 07:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (404NotFound @ Jun 26 2004, 07:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have no problem with bias or showing a point of view, but to be so dead-strong to say that your point is the truth and say it's impossible to think otherwise is exactly what Moore is doing, and, frankly, his Oscar win seemed to make people think that he is telling the truth. I don't like that; and not because I don't like what he says, but because it really gives a false impression to others of what America is like to both Americans and foreigners who take his words as the be all and end all. A 20 minute standing ovation doesn't happen because people think a film has a unique point of a view. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> People are idiots, thats why when its going to be really easy to take over the world when I start trying to in a couple of years.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Jun 27 2004, 03:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Jun 27 2004, 03:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> People are idiots, thats why when its going to be really easy to take over the world when I start trying to in a couple of years. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You will need rich friends and the taliban for partners to do that. Mr. Bush could never have got this far without those 2 things <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin-jumpingjoda+Jun 26 2004, 09:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jumpingjoda @ Jun 26 2004, 09:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You will need rich friends and the taliban for partners to do that. Mr. Bush could never have got this far without those 2 things <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm working under the assumption that the ammount of money you need to gain power is inversly proportianate to how much intellegence you have...
Based on my latest calculations involving Bush... I should need ABOUTTTTT... 36 cents... Canadian.
<!--QuoteBegin-404NotFound+Jun 27 2004, 02:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (404NotFound @ Jun 27 2004, 02:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have no problem with bias or showing a point of view, but to be so dead-strong to say that your point is the truth and say it's impossible to think otherwise is exactly what Moore is doing, and, frankly, his Oscar win seemed to make people think that he is telling the truth. I don't like that; and not because I don't like what he says, but because it really gives a false impression to others of what America is like to both Americans and foreigners who take his words as the be all and end all. A 20 minute standing ovation doesn't happen because people think a film has a unique point of a view. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> he only says true things. It's just that he doesn't show everything.
Saying "an alien RT costs only 15" is perfectly true, yet it doesn't state that it costs less than marine RTs
I liked the movie, but went into it knowing I wasn't really going to be surprised with what I saw... I hated these wars before they started, and bush before he was elec-- er, took office...
I must say this movie was more of a documentary than Bowling was -- Bowling was more of a sociological exploration of why the US is so violent... there were no definite conclusions, just some facts and food for thought... while 9/11 was more of a straightforward exposé...
I don't know which film is more important, as I don't know what is a deeper issue: that America is violent right down to its roots, or that America's current leadership has been incompetent at best and diabolical at worst...
<!--QuoteBegin-illuminex+Jun 26 2004, 10:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (illuminex @ Jun 26 2004, 10:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Missed the point of the poster ^^
Anyways, I'm not wasting my money on Moore. However, I will download the movie onto my hard drive so my intellectual chums and I can laugh. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> laugh at bush?
<!--QuoteBegin-Niteowl+Jun 28 2004, 09:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Niteowl @ Jun 28 2004, 09:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-illuminex+Jun 26 2004, 10:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (illuminex @ Jun 26 2004, 10:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Missed the point of the poster ^^
Anyways, I'm not wasting my money on Moore. However, I will download the movie onto my hard drive so my intellectual chums and I can laugh. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> laugh at bush? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ahh, so as long as your viewing it 'ironically' its still cool...
well, in that case, I might download myself a copy
Everything in F911 is supported plenty well enough to be at least half true. Considering the gravity of the charges, half true is <i>bad enough</i>. I'm true some of it isn't true, or gives an overly false impression, but overall the movie hits pretty close to home.
One of the biggest things that annoys me is the whole post-911 Saudi escape fiasco. Those people needed to be protected from the American people. Just carrying the name "Bin Laden" is practically a death sentance when surrounded by hurt and angry Americans. Taking them out of the country was the wrong approach, but they still needed to be protected.
I do think that the depiction of violence was necissary here. Its presence contrasts with the idealized vision of war soldiers have going in, and what the American people have come to believe <i>our</i> wars are like. We go in, we blow some stuff up, and come home a few weeks later, no casualties or anything. We also don't think about what our actions do to the foreign people. I can pretty much guarantee that no army recruiting officer will ever show anything remotely equivalent to the man grieving over his baby "war casualty" in F911.
To those of you who are having a hard time seeing the movie (like me, for a guy living in the capital of NC I figured there'd be some theatres neaby that showed it), Moore explicitly allowed filesharing of his movies in a press conferance. This makes sense - he's trying to get out a message, not make huge money on this stuff anyway. Filesharers are actually helping him.
<!--QuoteBegin-Hobojoe+Jun 29 2004, 04:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hobojoe @ Jun 29 2004, 04:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Duff-Man+Jun 25 2004, 08:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Duff-Man @ Jun 25 2004, 08:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> only thing he said he didn't like were the graphic depictions of the war in Iraq, apparently there's some pretty nasty footage of soldiers in battle. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> it was a evil thing in The Passion of the Christ and it's a commendable and great thing in F9/11
gg logic <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's because people don't need to make accounts of their religion... because you know, the freedom of speech doens't apply to "religious fanatics"
<!--QuoteBegin-404NotFound+Jun 29 2004, 05:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (404NotFound @ Jun 29 2004, 05:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Both movies should be R rated. end of story. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nude pictures of Cheney.
If you don't get it, watch the Daily Show more often.
Comments
I had a good laugh at that, too. I'm hoping to see it some time this weekend, perhaps with my bro.
You think all he says is wrong?
Well you saw the first scene in that bank? While he opened an account and got a weapon as a gift.... IN A BANK!
And did you see the scene where he was talking to that kid who knew the colombine murders? Or the scene where he talked to the NRA president... Why he had no answers? As moore asled him few questions he just left without saying anything, that was the most impressive sceene i ever saw in a DOCUMENTARY! Yes it is a documentary.
Bowlong for colombine is NOT only a "say no to bush" movie, it shows some major problems that the USA have, and which should not be looked over. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a bank, yes... a legally qualified arms dealer that did a background check and required a TEN THOUSAND DOLLAR CD to get that gun. "IN A BANK" nothing.
As for the NRA president thing, you can read about that on the Hardy site, I think even Moore himself appologized for that scene at one point.
For all those saying that Moore never calls it a documentary, I wish you had seen the Letterman interview. He calls it nothing but a documentary. When asked if the movie could even be skewed, he was asked if someone could come on the show and say "this isn't really how it happened," at first he said "no" but later said "any conservative right-wingers can debate me on any point." How this will interact with Michael Wilson's in production movie called "Michael Moore Hates America," I don't know.. since the premise of that movie is pretty much "this figure head is reclusive"
How will it interact with the movie/documentary/thingy?
Well, I suppose it will start some controversy. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Or maybe I don't understand the question.
Anyways, I'm not wasting my money on Moore. However, I will download the movie onto my hard drive so my intellectual chums and I can laugh. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And i don't know why he should appologise for that interview with the NRA president. He asked him just few questions that were asked by the press also, and why he had no answers? He knew that moore was coming to interview him.
Edited Q's statement for clarity.
With that out of the way,
I saw the movie last night in a packed theatre. The line for the next showing snaked around the theatre.
The film in some ways is much better than BFC, but perhaps not as satisfying. Here, Moore is more in the background, letting interview and news segments taking precedence over himself. While there is no climax as in BFC's Heston interview, one already gets the sense that the film really doesn't need one.
The film's bias is not towards Republicans, but towards a failure of intelligence and leadership. Using actual archival footage from the media, Moore constructs an argument as to why Bush wanted us to go to war: money and the preservation of the staus quo. Using very comical and deft editing, we see how the administration is seeped in bureaucracy and contradiction. The film is very biased. It shows a peaceful Iraq before the bombings, something that fails to recognize Saddam being akin to a present-day Mussolini. Nontheless, the bombs never hit Saddam, it hit families and children. Soldiers interviewed decry their own demoralization of the conflict.
Some facts exposed by F9/11:
*Facing mass demonstrations, Bush is the only president of the nation not to have walked the last four blocks in his inauguration.
*Saudi interests are composed of 7% of the U.S. economy, including all of CitiBank.
*Bush had blocked both a Congressional investigation and an independent investigation of 9/11 that year.
*Less troops were sent to Afghanistan than there are policemen in Manhattan.
*Despite the Dept. of Homeland Security, only one trooper patrols the shore of Oregon.
*Taliban leaders visited Bush Senior and other businessmen on September 11th.
*The Bin Laden family faced no questioning when they left U.S. soil.
*Iraq has never killed an American citizen in peace-time.
*Bush cut Army salaries and Veteran benefits.
*You can carry lighters and matches on a plane...but only six of them.
*You can make more money driving for Halliburton than fighting in Iraq.
Notice how these facts can easily be researched? Moore does not form his own conjectures, but rather let the facts speak for themselves. The documentary begs the question of the preservation of the status quo: Why should the poor man, to this day, fight the rich man's war? Why should kids in Flint, Michigan, unable to afford college, should risk lives to enjoy that priviledge? How moral is making billions of dollars in war-time?
There are some moments that are very funny, and some moments that are shocking and sad. One such moment was the story of Lila Liscomb, a patriotic mother whose ideals are shattered when she loses her son in a Black Hawk crash. President Bush does not have to answer to Michael Moore, but he has to answer to families like Lila Liscomb.
The film received a standing ovation in the theatre, and my vote for the first most important and controversial film of the first decade of the 21st Century.
P.S.: The last entity to ever conquer Afghanistan was Alexander the Great.
*Saudi interests are composed of 7% of the U.S. economy, including all of CitiBank.
*Bush had blocked both a Congressional investigation and an independent investigation of 9/11 that year.
*Less troops were sent to Afghanistan than there are policemen in Manhattan.
*Despite the Dept. of Homeland Security, only one trooper patrols the shore of Oregon.
*Taliban leaders visited Bush Senior and other businessmen on September 11th.
*The Bin Laden family faced no questioning when they left U.S. soil.
*Iraq has never killed an American citizen in peace-time.
*Bush cut Army salaries and Veteran benefits.
*You can carry lighters and matches on a plane...but only six of them.
*You can make more money driving for Halliburton than fighting in Iraq. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of the theese facts i know from the books i read. But i can't wait to see them on widescreen <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->President Bush does not have to answer to Michael Moore, but he has to answer to families like Lila Liscomb.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
o_O
forgive me but I don't really seem to see what point you're trying to make here.
o_O
forgive me but I don't really seem to see what point you're trying to make here. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some main points of my post (I'll admit to my verbosity):
*This is a biased film, but not against Republicans, but against a failure of a Presidency.
*There are questions that need to be answered that are not answered, whether it be elimination of red tape, relationships (personal and economic) with Saudi Arabia, or declassification of important documents.
*Moore lets facts/archival footage speak for themselves more than he himself speaks.
*The war is not about terrorism or WMD's, it is about preservation of a staus quo that socioeconomically divides our society, and about businesses making money that is not helping Iraq nor our troops.
*We screwed up. (May substitue word "screwed" with other words in your mind that I can't type here.)
Do I trust Snopes over Michael Moore? After watching 10 minutes of Canadian Bacon and seeing even screen caps from BFC, and having read almost every Snopes story, I say yes. Totally and 100% yes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-404NotFound+Jun 26 2004, 11:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (404NotFound @ Jun 26 2004, 11:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When asked if the movie could even be skewed, he was asked if someone could come on the show and say "this isn't really how it happened," at first he said "no" but later said "any conservative right-wingers can debate me on any point." How this will interact with Michael Wilson's in production movie called "Michael Moore Hates America," I don't know.. since the premise of that movie is pretty much "this figure head is reclusive" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How will it interact with the movie/documentary/thingy?
Well, I suppose it will start some controversy. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Or maybe I don't understand the question.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you may or may not know, there is a man named Michael Wilson making a 'documentary' (dunno for sure, haven't heard any reports of validity) of his own, in a Roger & Me style, where he explores Michael Moore's views on America and tries to track him down. I don't really like the title of the movie, since Moore's view on America is unclear to me, even after all that i've read about him, but according to the site that title is just a 'discussion point.' (<a href='http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/' target='_blank'>link here</a>
Do I trust Snopes over Michael Moore? After watching 10 minutes of Canadian Bacon and seeing even screen caps from BFC, and having read almost every Snopes story, I say yes. Totally and 100% yes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has been published countless times that the United States government financed the flights of both the Bin Laden family members that were in the United States at the time of the attack and the Saudi royal family members - and not just out of the state, but to their own countries. Not that in your fantastic snopes article, the one point they leave 'undetermined' is the one and only point in question ( "<i> During that same period the U.S. government allowed bin Laden family members to fly out of the U.S.: Undetermined.</i>) There was never any question of whether they flew about the country - I cna guarantee that plenty of higher-ups and rich folks flew around on private jets to their heart's content, granted they knew the right people).
But however the point is still this - Fahrenheit 9/11 only claimed that the Government funded the removal of these people back to europe and asia - he never said once that they refused to let the FBI question the people (Moore actually just states that they DIDN'T question them, for a reason that can be taken as conspiratorial or not, depending on the gullibility of the watcher). He never mentioned that the FBI particularly <i>wanted</i> to question them, either, but kept his mouth shut, away form making any definite claims.
In conclusion, Snopes can be just as underhanded and vague as Michael Moore is infamous for being and should be taken with the precise same amount of credence.
It has been published countless times that the United States government financed the flights of both the Bin Laden family members that were in the United States at the time of the attack and the Saudi royal family members - and not just out of the state, but to their own countries. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the right of return is what exactly? Oh I forgot, <b>doing things the UN way is bad</b>. Friggin' sorry.
Do I trust Snopes over Michael Moore? After watching 10 minutes of Canadian Bacon and seeing even screen caps from BFC, and having read almost every Snopes story, I say yes. Totally and 100% yes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-404NotFound+Jun 26 2004, 11:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (404NotFound @ Jun 26 2004, 11:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When asked if the movie could even be skewed, he was asked if someone could come on the show and say "this isn't really how it happened," at first he said "no" but later said "any conservative right-wingers can debate me on any point." How this will interact with Michael Wilson's in production movie called "Michael Moore Hates America," I don't know.. since the premise of that movie is pretty much "this figure head is reclusive" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How will it interact with the movie/documentary/thingy?
Well, I suppose it will start some controversy. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Or maybe I don't understand the question.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you may or may not know, there is a man named Michael Wilson making a 'documentary' (dunno for sure, haven't heard any reports of validity) of his own, in a Roger & Me style, where he explores Michael Moore's views on America and tries to track him down. I don't really like the title of the movie, since Moore's view on America is unclear to me, even after all that i've read about him, but according to the site that title is just a 'discussion point.' (<a href='http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/' target='_blank'>link here</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go watch one of Moore's earlier movies, "The Big One". He fights a lot for the little guy, makes Clinton look bad, and has a foot race with the president of Nike.... or tries to...
So having an opinion is now known as hating his country?
Anyway many are complaining about his presented arguments that are so biased in his point of view. Did you ever do debates? In debates, you show YOUR side. You don't show both, you only present arguments favorable for you. You still have to be aware of the opposing ideas and rebuttals but giving out an unbiased debate is like not even trying to convince.
All you have to know is that everything has bias, as long as you don't research into it. Medias say what they want, the way they want it. (ie. "Americans suffered heavy casualties" = 3 soldiers dead, while "a group of terrorists attacked a group of Americans but got repelled" = 20+ soldiers dead)
So what exactly is not true, and what are the usa exactly? Explain it in an anti moore way.
People are idiots, thats why when its going to be really easy to take over the world when I start trying to in a couple of years.
You will need rich friends and the taliban for partners to do that.
Mr. Bush could never have got this far without those 2 things <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
Mr. Bush could never have got this far without those 2 things <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm working under the assumption that the ammount of money you need to gain power is inversly proportianate to how much intellegence you have...
Based on my latest calculations involving Bush... I should need ABOUTTTTT... 36 cents... Canadian.
[edit] oh and the taliban thing, no problem ;D
he only says true things. It's just that he doesn't show everything.
Saying "an alien RT costs only 15" is perfectly true, yet it doesn't state that it costs less than marine RTs
I must say this movie was more of a documentary than Bowling was -- Bowling was more of a sociological exploration of why the US is so violent... there were no definite conclusions, just some facts and food for thought... while 9/11 was more of a straightforward exposé...
I don't know which film is more important, as I don't know what is a deeper issue: that America is violent right down to its roots, or that America's current leadership has been incompetent at best and diabolical at worst...
Anyways, I'm not wasting my money on Moore. However, I will download the movie onto my hard drive so my intellectual chums and I can laugh. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
laugh at bush?
Anyways, I'm not wasting my money on Moore. However, I will download the movie onto my hard drive so my intellectual chums and I can laugh. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
laugh at bush? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ahh, so as long as your viewing it 'ironically' its still cool...
well, in that case, I might download myself a copy
One of the biggest things that annoys me is the whole post-911 Saudi escape fiasco. Those people needed to be protected from the American people. Just carrying the name "Bin Laden" is practically a death sentance when surrounded by hurt and angry Americans. Taking them out of the country was the wrong approach, but they still needed to be protected.
I do think that the depiction of violence was necissary here. Its presence contrasts with the idealized vision of war soldiers have going in, and what the American people have come to believe <i>our</i> wars are like. We go in, we blow some stuff up, and come home a few weeks later, no casualties or anything. We also don't think about what our actions do to the foreign people. I can pretty much guarantee that no army recruiting officer will ever show anything remotely equivalent to the man grieving over his baby "war casualty" in F911.
To those of you who are having a hard time seeing the movie (like me, for a guy living in the capital of NC I figured there'd be some theatres neaby that showed it), Moore explicitly allowed filesharing of his movies in a press conferance. This makes sense - he's trying to get out a message, not make huge money on this stuff anyway. Filesharers are actually helping him.
I say it's a good watch nonetheless, to feel of how the left in american thinks.
it was a evil thing in The Passion of the Christ and it's a commendable and great thing in F9/11
gg logic <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's because people don't need to make accounts of their religion... because you know, the freedom of speech doens't apply to "religious fanatics"
Both movies should be R rated. end of story.
Nude pictures of Cheney.
If you don't get it, watch the Daily Show more often.