Chain Down Thoose Chambers And Chain Em Good!
AvengerX
Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27459Banned
Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27459Banned
<div class="IPBDescription">go ruin your own HL mod if you want</div> the chambers are bound to hives for reasons, why don't you people understand that? I think NS for being as crazy and new of a game as it is is so so close to achieving balance, don't go throw that all away just so you can build DCs MCs and sens whenever you want.
we don't need to unchain the chambers there fine the way there are now
we don't need to unchain the chambers there fine the way there are now
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Comments
We been running an Unchained plugin for the past few weeks and it doesn't seem to make much differnce. The marines still walk all over the aliens. The best plugin we added was a resbalancer, but as far as the chambers go... Go play on a server where they are unchained. I don't think you'll notice much differnce.
Haplo: What res balancer are you referring to?
heres why we don't open up pandora's box and unchain hell for the marines
1- marines are on the reacting side of the game depending on the alien's first chamber they use a diffrent stradagy, for instence if aliens get sensory then you'll get MT sooner, or if they get DCs you'll just want a armslab geting upped. so you just expect marines to be ready for ANY abillity and ANY chamber?
heres why we don't open up pandora's box and unchain hell for the marines
1- marines are on the reacting side of the game depending on the alien's first chamber they use a diffrent stradagy, for instence if aliens get sensory then you'll get MT sooner, or if they get DCs you'll just want a armslab geting upped. so you just expect marines to be ready for ANY abillity and ANY chamber? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
onos! The marines! they can't counter as easily as they used to! The Fronteirsmen are no more! It makes the game harder for marines, no more slack jaw n' shootin tin cans for marines, they may actually have to do alittle more work to win now.
heres why we don't open up pandora's box and unchain hell for the marines
1- marines are on the reacting side of the game depending on the alien's first chamber they use a diffrent stradagy, for instence if aliens get sensory then you'll get MT sooner, or if they get DCs you'll just want a armslab geting upped. so you just expect marines to be ready for ANY abillity and ANY chamber? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
onos! The marines! they can't counter as easily as they used to! The Fronteirsmen are no more! It makes the game harder for marines, no more slack jaw n' shootin tin cans for marines, they may actually have to do alittle more work to win now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
haha. couldn't have said it better myself. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
this really sounds like its coming from a marine stacker, no? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[EDIT] Typoes. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://www.ampednews.com/?page=articles&id=1186' target='_blank'>http://www.ampednews.com/?page=articles&id=1186</a>
Its not. We're just running short on top flight clans. The lower the competitive skill level, the more Aliens tend to win (inaccurate marines, bad group movement, crappy commanding, lack of welders, lack of mines and a general lack of situational awareness all contribute majorly to that, not just the general strength of the Fade).
Since marines are winning all over the top clans(according to rumors), it doesn't seem like this would go against the will of clanners either.
And if the clan scene really is dying out and pubbers have their way, what is the problem? If there are only pubbers left, they will be the only audience to cater to, right?
Neither way works. *gasp* You need to actually have a good game. Unchained chambers don't stand in the way of this though, with the exception of the current power of the SC. Once SCs aren't exclusive anymore, they need to be thought of as entirely different objects and balanced as such.
Closemindedness is killing the game.
This one
<!--QuoteBegin-CheesyPeteza @ modns.org+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CheesyPeteza @ modns.org)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This plugin changes the amount of resources aliens receive from RTs so that it is independent of the number of players. Good for servers with a large max players.
How it works:
Normally NS gives 1 res per RT every 4 seconds split up among all aliens. The algorithm looks like this:
PlayerResIncrease = NumResTowers / NumAlienPlayers
This is fine if you have a 12-14 player server, otherwise it becomes unbalanced as aliens receive too little or too much res.
This plugin changes it so that its:
PlayerResIncrease = NumResTowers / 7
You can change the default from 7 with the cvar "amx_rb_baseres". I picked 7 as that is what seems most balanced for our server.
Note: The plugin automatically disables itself when tournament mode is enabled and was designed for and tested in NS3b4a.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It can be found right here: <a href='http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=568' target='_blank'>http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=568</a>
This really helps Level out Big games. The marines still have optimal fire power once they hit level 3. We have found that 6 is the best on our server 10 vs 10.
Now, on topic:
Unchaining the chambers is a good start in bringing the game back to where it should be. For all the talk of balance, I can't help but be annoyed. I don't believe anyone has been bothering to ask WHY the game should be balanced. The most important part of a game is not its balance, but its overall atmosphere. Unfortunately, in the quest for balance, you will always lose atmosphere. You will lose the reason you play. I have to be completely honest here. I don't like classic much. Before you classic kids start SCREAMING "OMG T3H UBER CO_N00B!!!!!!," read my signature. It says "playing since 1.03." I've had my share of experience in classic NS. I don't like it because it lost its fun factor. It's ok to play once in a while, but the game feels hollow. The idea of "strategy" is no longer a changing and evolving thing that happens new every game. Now it's just a cookie cutter game, where if you simply follow these guidelines and have some OK marines, you'll win unless you're against a professional alien clan. There is no more human ingenuity. The balance of the game is unstable for the aliens. For alien to win, either they must be superior in many aspects to the standard marine, or they stand a far better chance of losing. The desperation and winning against all odds attitude has been passed to the aliens. That is stupid. The raw, brutal power of the Kharaa race has been nerfed at a small but steady pace so that balance can be achieved. And now they get walked on.
The game is balanced for combat, with exception of the spawn system. Balance works for combat. Balance does not work for classic, since the res system and chamber system that are in place limit the aliens. To compensate for this, you must overpower the Kharaa, which the development team has refused to do. In a straight combat setting, some sort of balance has been achieved. But, and this is where I am surprised, in classic, supposedly the most important part of Natural Selection, the great problems and tradeoffs of all the 3bx's have been largely avoided. If the community would start pushing hard for the re-unbalancing (w00t w00t, new English!) of NS classic, where Kharaa > Marine exists, the game would bring the fun factor back.
So yes, unchain the chambers.
Unchaining The Chambers is a start, probably will need a lot more changes.
Since marines are winning all over the top clans(according to rumors), it doesn't seem like this would go against the will of clanners either.
And if the clan scene really is dying out and pubbers have their way, what is the problem? If there are only pubbers left, they will be the only audience to cater to, right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Becuase THAT is when the good players are forced to adapt once again, but this time it's where we have to play on servers with 1) A game that has exceptional potential, but a weak dev team. 2) A server with abusive admins towards good players 3) Servers with nothing but 10 year old kids who blatantly call you a hacker and ridicule you unto you turn off text and mute everyone, just to play a game.
Natural Selection is one of the best games you'll ever come across, but with no production it's going to be a mere concept game and be further used as reference material for a 40 man mod team.
Clockwork said it best when he said to do updates in small steps, and not make huge updates at long intervals between them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Since marines are winning all over the top clans(according to rumors), it doesn't seem like this would go against the will of clanners either.
And if the clan scene really is dying out and pubbers have their way, what is the problem? If there are only pubbers left, they will be the only audience to cater to, right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because the clan scene dies doesn't mean the good players wont stay, and just for my story, I had played on an unchained server, liked it, until I got to talking about it with some of eR and ue's members, and after hearing their thoughts, and the one being most convincing being, "IT NEEDS TO BE PLAYTESTED BY GOOD PLAYERS BECAUSE IT OBVIOUSLY ISN'T BEING USED TO IT'S TRUE POTENTIAL, along with many other substantial reason why I shouldn't like it if I were to put it on a good marine and alien team in a 6v6, not a 12 v 12, I was convinced it was a bad idea, along with the majority, if not all, of the clanners I have talked to about it.
theres a reason theres an order to the marine tech tree and same for the chamebrs, I can't just hop in the CC and drop me a proto lab right off the bat can I? so why should aliens be able to build whatever they want whenever they want however they want?
WRONG. Aliens are supposed to be the ones who adapt.
<!--QuoteBegin-Avenger-X+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Avenger-X)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->theres a reason theres an order to the marine tech tree and same for the chamebrs, I can't just hop in the CC and drop me a proto lab right off the bat can I? so why should aliens be able to build whatever they want whenever they want however they want?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The proto lab does not compare to upgrade chambers. If anything it compares to fades and onos, but seeing as they are two completely different teams, you cannot accuratly say team A's thing X is the equivlent to team B's thing Y.
The public poll shows landslide support of trying this out. See <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72187' target='_blank'>here</a>. Apparently the community thinks this would be a good system to try out in the beta.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't just hop in the CC and drop me a proto lab right off the bat can I? so why should aliens be able to build whatever they want whenever they want however they want<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, first you need to understand how aliens and marines differ. Marines operate on a tech tree based system, where incremental and small upgrades are researched at sequential structures. Aliens, on the other hand, get their new abilities via the hives and such only get two jumps in technology, but they are quite substantial. Upon getting a new hive, an alien receives a new weapon/ability and the availability of gestating another upgrade. Your attempt to compare marines buildings to alien buildings is very misled, as they are so different that they can't be shaped in such a way that a simple side by side comparison works.
What unchained chambers do is allow for alien defense, some thing they have seriously lacked previously. Sensories allow for some cover, although it really is easily countered. Defenses for healing, which as the previous DMS has proved over time is essential if the alien team wants any chance of victory. And Movement which now allows for aliens to get to the place of need with greater speed. All-in-all this change allows for greater alien strategy and with the greater diversity, it spices up the game for marines also, who also must use strategy.
I hope this cleared some things up for you, Avenger-X.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The public poll shows landslide support of trying this out. See <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72187' target='_blank'>here</a>. Apparently the community thinks this would be a good system to try out in the beta.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't just hop in the CC and drop me a proto lab right off the bat can I? so why should aliens be able to build whatever they want whenever they want however they want<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, first you need to understand how aliens and marines differ. Marines operate on a tech tree based system, where incremental and small upgrades are researched at sequential structures. Aliens, on the other hand, get their new abilities via the hives and such only get two jumps in technology, but they are quite substantial. Upon getting a new hive, an alien receives a new weapon/ability and the availability of gestating another upgrade. Your attempt to compare marines buildings to alien buildings is very misled, as they are so different that they can't be shaped in such a way that a simple side by side comparison works.
What unchained chambers do is allow for alien defense, some thing they have seriously lacked previously. Sensories allow for some cover, although it really is easily countered. Defenses for healing, which as the previous DMS has proved over time is essential if the alien team wants any chance of victory. And Movement which now allows for aliens to get to the place of need with greater speed. All-in-all this change allows for greater alien strategy and with the greater diversity, it spices up the game for marines also, who also must use strategy.
I hope this cleared some things up for you, Avenger-X.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
it only shows me how much the chambers SHOULD be chained down, your all wrong, the games fine so don't screw it up when were so dang close to having it down right
To add a level of strategy to alien gameplay, so the teamplay is higly required and coordination. Without it you can't get to 2 hive and can't have any second upgrade... That's the beauty of chained chambers. If you miss a chamber, or get overwhelmed with the chamber the team choosed, you must battle for a second hive to fix your mistake. his thus forces the team to play accordingly to the chambers that were made, so teamplay required again.
Want unchained chambers? go combat! become a superskulk <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your comments are simply showing that a coherant and intelligent debate with you is futile. Others in this thread have pointed out numerous times why the game is not balanced, why unchaining the chambers helps add more strategy and teamwork, and why unchaining does more to balance the game than it does to unbalance it. Your response of "your all wrong" shows that we should not be wasting our time trying to reason with you.
Recoup, we've been over this. Have you tried playing with unchained chambers yet? To be blunt, people who play with unchained chambers every day know more about what effect this actually has on the game than someone who has never tried it. I can tell you from my experiences with the plugin that this does not significantly throw off the balance of the game; have you personally seen that it does? Maybe you should be taking stats from the servers that are using the plugin instead since that's really what this is about.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhahahahahaha! What a good joke! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Oh dear god he's serious... <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
At this point, I don't give a randy rats buttocks about balance. The Kharaa game isn't FUN anymore. And coming from that, neither is the Marine game, as it takes little to no effort on their behalf to win. The Unchained Chambers makes it FUN again. Isn't that what a games supposed to be about? FUN?
Anyway, this is just going to fall into a flame war, and the original post was little more than a troll in the first place...
Would you mind showing me HOW my post shows you that? Also, please explain WHY I am all wrong? You can't make a statement without backing it up with an reason or some type of ligitimate argument.
If you can't provide some sort of logic behind what you say, you are merely trolling.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
To add a level of strategy to alien gameplay, so the teamplay is higly required and coordination. Without it you can't get to 2 hive and can't have any second upgrade... That's the beauty of chained chambers. If you miss a chamber, or get overwhelmed with the chamber the team choosed, you must battle for a second hive to fix your mistake. his thus forces the team to play accordingly to the chambers that were made, so teamplay required again.
Want unchained chambers? go combat! become a superskulk <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please, don't go comparing unchained chambers to a likening to Combat. We still have <i><b>one</b></i> upgrade per hive, which equals a total of <b><i>three</i></b> upgrades. You also seem to be aluding to the "fact" that unchained chambers don't add any strategy to the game. Adaptability should be about the ability to change oneself to suit changing circumstances, not about correcting mistakes or following a set path of advancement. Both systems have their Achile's heel, so to speak:
-Under chained chambers, one chamber is allowed to be built per hive. This can be a handicap is, for example, the hive supporting defense chambers was destroyed, because until it was rebuilt more defense chambers could not be built. Of course the pro to this scenario is that as long as defense chambers still exist, a defensive ability could still be gestated. Thus, placement of chambers is a fine point of strategy. Another con that can be considered is resource control and management is vital; a choice of sensory chambers at the first hive most often calls for the immediate construction of a new hive, most often to support defense chambers (which will bring me to another "con" later). If the team cannot control the map's resources for whatever reason, or is unable to secure new hive locations, they are forced to use that one type of chamber, and more likely than not counters by the Marine team will become more and more evident. Also, under the current system, defense chambers are [in my opinion] the most vital chamber to the aliens, and the loss of a hive to support said chamber/the failure to have a hive to support defense chambers in the first place more or less restricts the team from the use of advanced lifeforms, and thus lends them to defeat.
-Under unchained chambers, any type of chamber may be built regardless of hive possession (of course, when <i>no</i> hive exist, no chambers can be built <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->). This opens up a whole new sense of strategy, such as being able to at any time being able to assault a chokepoint under the protection of a seneory chamber, having a movement chamber at your first/only hive to quickly assist a building hie under attack, covertly constructing a hive, selecting an upgrade which best suits the situation, etc. Of course, it would be lovely to have an assortment of upgrade chambers to choose from at any given time, but due to resource constraints it's simply not an option. It costs resources to build any and all upgrade chambers, not to mention purchasing upgrades. Thus, choices must be made on the exspenditure of resources; whether to build a new hive, to evolve to higher lifeforms, to secure chokepoints, or to invest in upgrade chambers. Plus, only one upgrade can be evolved with each hive you possess, so having 3 defense chambers and 3 sensory chambers is a moot point with only one hive. Also, you currently cannot "devolve" gestated traits under our current system (I have no idea what, if anything, would be in store in this respect if chambers were unchained).
geekanarchy, don't sweat it too much. Avenger-X seems to have issues with dealing with other's opinions, as well as his own.
[Edit: typoes and such]