Indifference
kida
Join Date: 2003-02-20 Member: 13778Members
Join Date: 2003-02-20 Member: 13778Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A religious thread</div> Can one be truly <u>indifferent</u> towards God?
I am a slave to Him, and whenever I try to escape His grasp forever, the same thought comes back tip toeing and smacking me on the face. There is no escape; the moral subconscious cannot be destroyed, and because of that I will never be truly indifferent. Even with the realization that one has to depend on himself - not God - I end up turning to that mode of thought where nothing is gained.
You can either <b>love</b> or <b>hate</b> him.
Feel free to expand this thread into a civil, ethical discussion with ideas used or not from previous threads such as the one I present; I think it's about time we had another one of these. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I am a slave to Him, and whenever I try to escape His grasp forever, the same thought comes back tip toeing and smacking me on the face. There is no escape; the moral subconscious cannot be destroyed, and because of that I will never be truly indifferent. Even with the realization that one has to depend on himself - not God - I end up turning to that mode of thought where nothing is gained.
You can either <b>love</b> or <b>hate</b> him.
Feel free to expand this thread into a civil, ethical discussion with ideas used or not from previous threads such as the one I present; I think it's about time we had another one of these. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
Being as how He claims to be, He is forever involved in the lives of people. If you’re truly recalcitrant, I suppose you can fight Him to the point that He will leave you alone through an action as grievous as blaspheming the Holy Spirit, (or maybe you get shafted with divine retribution? who knows). However, such an action is done through hatred, so you’re not being indifferent, but rather hostile.
The only way I can think of being indifferent at the moment is through either the thought mode of an atheist/agnostic. However, since you’re naturally acknowledging the existence of God, rather than denying it, this option is not a choice for you. It would seem that if you tried to force yourself into the mindset of an atheist, you would be doing it out of spite.
Sorry in advance if it seems like I'm analyzing you.
He's like a landlord. No-one wants to pay rent, but you either cough up at the end of each month or go to hell. It's just something to accept, assuming He exists.
It's kind of like a Tarantino film, only the fanboys keep yelling it can be a love/hate relationship and a love/hate relationship alone. There ARE people whom are indifferent to Tarantinos films, just as there are people whom are indifferent to god (should he prove to exist).
Here is a being claiming to have complete and utter control over absolutely everthing, who says that when you die you will face him and him alone in pure perfect righteous judgement and claims to have the power to throw you into the lake of fire for an eternity, or raise you up to be with him in paradise for ever.
Ok, if he doesn't exist, there is no point worrying about all that, but if he does, then it means everything to you. To put it frankly, you would be a fool not to try af find out as much as you can about him before making your decision.
By all means, reject him if you want, but wouldn't it be wise to find out what you are rejecting before you do?
God doesn't respect suck ups. If, on that day that your going to be judged by him he should happen to ask why you were perfectly faithful and your answer is "So I dont end up in hell", I somehow think he wont be too impressed.
Love god because you love god, not because you dont want to wind up in hell.
I dont love god, I dont even know if he exists, but should he prove to exist, I have no reason to hate him either and I wont go about professing my love of him to avoid going to hell.
All with the proviso that god exists of course, if he doesn't then as you said, no biggy.
If I am to answer to a god when I die then there will be no use attempting deception. Truth will suffice and whatever judgement to be handed out will be handed out. Until that day comes I will live my life as I choose, God gave me that choice after all (should he prove to exist <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->).
So as far as the Bible is concerned, indifference is sin, and a complete shafting of yourself in the process <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So as far as the Bible is concerned, indifference is sin, and a complete shafting of yourself in the process <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the trouble (for me). I don't really care much about God, so what's the point of pretending I do? It'd be nice if my indifference didn't consign me to an eternity of torment, but it's not like I can do anything about it. It seems a bit harsh from where I'm standing, though.
God is the creator, we are the creature. God is the potter, we are the clay. What right does the clay have to say "Potter, I don't like what you have made". or "Potter, I don't like you" or "Potter, I don't belive you exist".
As far as God is concerned, we have no right, and for trying to take that right - that is where judgment comes.
We are here for Gods Glory - not our own. It is not giving the glory to God (through indifference) that plays a part in our judgment.
If the potter creates a clay pot, which turns out to crack in the oven's heat, is it too much to ask to be fixed?
As for the "clay's right" to speak its mind; if God didn't want people to have free will, why grant it? That suggests to me that God, if He exists, <i>wants</i> us to think for ourselves.
2 Timothy 2:20-21
Stakhanov, also being impartial, recognises the massacres due to atheism, such as those carried out by Stalin and Mao, and in the interest of fairness decides to hate his own belief as well......
i just don't get it :-/
anyway, in terms of indifference, i do believe it's possible to be indifferent towards god. i've lived my life in indifference, or attempted to, anyway, as i do what i think to be right according to the morals i was brought up to have and believe in. if god can find fault in that then i don't think he's worth believing in.
oh, and another thing, seems the whole jesus thing gives everyone a real easy way out, jesus died for our sins, so as long as you accept him as your lord sometime before your death, you're fine, and can sin all you want until then :-/ ooch, don't like that too much either.
perhaps i just don't have quite the grasp of these concepts? *shrugs* i dunno about you guys, but if someone who's willing to over look past sins, as long as they believe in something(or just say they do), i don't want to be taking lessons in morality from him. according to that line of thought, one could go do whatever one wants, and, as long as one ends well, then all is well. the ends do not justify the means in every case, which is not what i see being taught :-/
i just don't get it :-/
anyway, in terms of indifference, i do believe it's possible to be indifferent towards god. i've lived my life in indifference, or attempted to, anyway, as i do what i think to be right according to the morals i was brought up to have and believe in. if god can find fault in that then i don't think he's worth believing in.
oh, and another thing, seems the whole jesus thing gives everyone a real easy way out, jesus died for our sins, so as long as you accept him as your lord sometime before your death, you're fine, and can sin all you want until then :-/ ooch, don't like that too much either.
perhaps i just don't have quite the grasp of these concepts? *shrugs* i dunno about you guys, but if someone who's willing to over look past sins, as long as they believe in something(or just say they do), i don't want to be taking lessons in morality from him. according to that line of thought, one could go do whatever one wants, and, as long as one ends well, then all is well. the ends do not justify the means in every case, which is not what i see being taught :-/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good questions, and very tough ones at that. The first one deals with the topic of Predestination - the idea that God forordains all events / has knoweledge of them before the beginning of time, and yet we as humans have "free will" and are responsible for our own actions.
The best way to explain that is to say that Gods knowledge about an event does not negate our responsibilty for that event. For instance, you hit someone. You still hit that person, and are responsible for it, even though God knew before the foundation of the world that you were going to hit that person. It is an unusual dicotemy, but the statements are not exclusive of each other.
The second one deals with the "fairness" of God, and finding a legal loophole in his word. Basically, it comes down to repentance. I belive a person can have a "death bed" conversion and end up on Gods good side (for lack of a better expression) - however, they must truely be repentant for all the sin they have committed in their life.
Since trying to abuse the system (living a life of sin and converting before death) is in itself a sin, it points to an unrepentant heart. God judges the heart, not the words that were spoken at comformation, or the amout of holy wine that was drunk, or anything else.
so living a holy life just so you don't have to go to hell wouldn't work? you'd have to truly love god in order to get in?
ok, starting to make a little more sense, however, that leaves all those poor sods who are "in it for the money" i guess, out of everything, because they weren't truly believers. and i say ha to them, for forsaking their own beliefs and allowing their greed to get in the way.
my next question would be the same as before, how would god look upon someone who lived according to his morals as strictly as possible, even were he not a believer in life. if i lived a fair and good life none-the-less. in my eyes, acceptance of this, even with said persons denouncement of faith in life, would be the ultimate in acceptance. i do not believe that how person comes to the morals or beliefs one holds, as long as one follows them and lives are fairly as possible, there is nothing better. is it not true that, as humans, we are flawed people, and as such do not yet(or perhaps can not) understand teh ultimate truth or ultimate goodness? is it to be held against us?
[edit]also, i still dont' understand why god, being a truly all powerful being, would insist on allowing for non-believers? being that he can foretell what is to happen...i'm sorry, i just don't understand how god's knowledge of an event leaves responsibility still in our hands. if he knows, at the beginning of time, that say, in 20 years, i'll murder my brother, why do i have responsibility for that event? i don't see any freewill there, just predestination.[/edit]
What if a downright crazy person tried to be the most sinful as possible in his short existence , to the point that the horror of his sins would struck him one day and he'd truly repent ? Having seen the light , he should be accepted in heaven.
Now , a firmly atheist philantropist would end up in hell despite having tried to do the most good as he could in his life.
Love god because you love god, not because you dont want to wind up in hell. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This issue has troubled me for a long time... I once gave an analogy to a speaker at a workshop that believing in God to earn a place in heaven is like going to the birthday party of that kid that no one likes. Why would you want to go? Well, because they're serving some damn amazing cake and entrées, that's why!
My speaker responded that they may be true, but there was one important thing neglected. Imagine that this kid that you didn't exactly life saved your life. How would you feel then.
You and I are both in the dilemma of being unable to appreciate Christ's sacrifice for humanity. In my case, I can't appreciate it because of the fact that it happened over 2000 years ago, and this event feels distant to me. I can't say in your case what it is.
Actually 'loving' has left me with a lot of confusion, cause honestly in all the time I thought I was a Christian, I never really loved God. The only way I see of showing my love to God is best seen in this verse:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Matthew 25:34-40 - Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now I suppose you'll answer, "But I can do all those things through my own altruistic nature. I don't need God to motivate me to pick up such actions." And that's possibly true, non-religious people CAN perform all these actions. However, that's not the point we're concerned with. The point is that Christians perform these actions out of their love for God.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->that's one problem i've always had trouble understanding. hwo is it that anyone can claim god has a purpose for everyone, and yet also claim that we believe or disbelieve according to our own will, those two seem contradictory in my eyes, why would god create un believers? or why would he attempt to give purpose to something that has complete free will over itself?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The best analogy I've come to understand this is that God has indeed placed a plan for every single individual. The point of deviation comes at whether the individual decides on whether or not to choose what is meant to be the most optimal blueprint of our lives, or whether we decide to strike out on our own. So God <i>does</i> have a purpose for everyone, but it is up to each person to accept or deny that purpose.
1) Assume god doesn't exist. This is the easy one. My feelings toward him would be irrelevant.
2) The non-trivial one - assume god exists, and that the Bible is overall accurate. My brain, a gift from said god, combined with god's nondetectable presense, has resulted in the logical conclusion that he does not exist. Also, I try to live a moral life as best as I am able, regardless of the presense of god. Considering both of those issues (and a couple technicalities not worth listing), it would be somewhat hypocritical for god to punish me for using his gift to the fullest and living a good life. I would not consider such a god worth worshipping anyhow.
The concept of Hell also has some serious flaws, and a good writeup is available <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell' target='_blank'>here.</a> If you want to skip to the good part, look under the heading "Additional observations regarding the history and description of Hell in Christianity" in the four quoted paragraphs.
3) Also trivial - god exists, but the Bible is far off base. Then many of us are up the creek without a paddle, eh?
Considering those possibilities, what I personally think about god really has no bearing on anything. I really don't care whether or not he exists. Sure, it might be nice if we were being watched over by some benevolent being, but I'm not going to rely on it.
God created the universe, the world, and man for his glory. Man fell into sin (garden of eden). If you recolect though, Adam "walked with God" in the garden. God desires that relationship with his creature. He wants us to love him (sounds cheezy, I know, but that is theology 101 for you). Being a non-believer is a rejection of that desire.
As for God "forknowing" and yet not being responsible, well you can blame Adam for that. Adam "chose" (read free will) to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. From then on, his decendents (us) have the ability and freedom to do both good and evil.
However, God is still God - his ability to forknow does not change. Neither do his requirements (perfection).
We are unable to meet those requirements on our own - enter death. However, God still wants us to be able to share in a meaningful relationship - so you need a stand in for you. This is where the sacrificial system comes into play - of which Jesus is the ultimate "Perfect" sacrifice - "the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world".
So to sum it up - all our "good" is as filthy rags in Gods eyes, unless we are covered by the blood of Jesus (belief in him).
Hope that helps in some understanding of the Christian faith. If I get too off topic, let me know.
We are unable to meet those requirements on our own - enter death. However, God still wants us to be able to share in a meaningful relationship - so you need a stand in for you. This is where the sacrificial system comes into play - of which Jesus is the ultimate "Perfect" sacrifice - "the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world".
So to sum it up - all our "good" is as filthy rags in Gods eyes, unless we are covered by the blood of Jesus (belief in him). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But the trouble is that belief, faith, convinction, whatever you want to call it, isn't really something that comes from a conscious decision. I realise I risk speaking only from my perspective, but it does seem that people either have it from the get-go or it's dormant. Potential faith, kinda. I've never been able to believe fully in God, and, like I said earlier, there's no point in trying to be a Christian if I cannot really believe in God.
If my interpretation of the passage you gave was correct, then that seems to go against the "being 'good' is never good enough" thing.
Concerning Taboos first argument - assuming God doesnt exist. OK - if I am going to have that assumption, then I have to assume many other things - Evolution is the big one that comes to mind. I wont go into it, but the assumptions involved in evolution are at least as big (if not bigger) than the assumption of the existence of God. I for one would rather assume in God than that everything is one big giant chance (OK, several billion chances) and that life is inherently meaningless.
Argument number two: Both God and Bible are true and accurate, but using my brain and living moral should be good enough - and if they arent, well, I don't want to belive that God anyway. (P.S. - God is undetectable - therefore non-existent).
The first half comes from a misunderstanding / not caring about God or the Bible. I cant really argue against it, other than my prevous post (theology 101).
Concerning the 2nd half of the post I will refer to a parable of Jesus. In it he says that there was a man who died and went to hell, and from beyond the grave he asked Jesus to send Samuel (a dead prophet) to go visit his brothers so that they might belive and be spared the torment that he was going through. Jesus replied to him and said "They already have the law and the prophets (books of the OT) - that is enough. Even if I did send Samuel back from the dead, they would not belive." (not a direct quote).
The point is this - there is enough revealation out there for everyone. However, there are still those who will not be convinced.
Argument three - God exists, but the God of the Bible is not "the way".
This is an argument that many have had over the years, and my standard response is this "what is your base in life?" If your base is "I live a good life" or "I try hard" or "I dont belive in God" or whatever it is, then great, good for you.
However, I choose to base my life on something outside of myself. I know I am flawed and sinful - I do stupid things, I am inconsistent. If I have to base my belivef system on me, well, I'm skrood. That is why I chose the Bible, which claims to be the Holy, Inspired, Infallable, Perfect Word of God - and that is a whole lot more convincing and substantial than baseing my beliefs on me. Show me where you base your beliefs, you know mine.
Concerning the 2nd half of the post I will refer to a parable of Jesus. In it he says that there was a man who died and went to hell, and from beyond the grave he asked Jesus to send Samuel (a dead prophet) to go visit his brothers so that they might belive and be spared the torment that he was going through. Jesus replied to him and said "They already have the law and the prophets (books of the OT) - that is enough. Even if I did send Samuel back from the dead, they would not belive." (not a direct quote).
The point is this - there is enough revealation out there for everyone. However, there are still those who will not be convinced.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
minor correction, it was a rich man and Lazarus, and when the rich man and Lazarus died, the rich man was cast into hell and saw Lazarus standing with Abraham.
*edit* i have an interesting tangent, one of my friends was questioning me about the existence of God, and told me that he would only believe in God if he were shown 'irrefutable proof' - and then he tried to use the 'if God is all-powerful and God wants us to believe in him' argument to show how it wasn't possible for God to exist. I told him that there's no piece of evidence that can possibly convince us if we're not open to believe at all. The evidence is already there, in my opinion. Paul tells us that God has already revealed his existence by our surroundings.
That's a rather cryptic statement. How are we supposed to conclude that God exists , by merely observing our surroundings ? I have yet to see anything that requires a god to exist. Every single phenomenon will be scientifically explained eventually. It's no wonder atheism starts to grow once scientifical knownledge is widespread.
About the christian god : the major reason I find it cruel is the concept of hell , which is cruel not only for atheists , but even for the really bad guys. After a whole life of bad feelings and suffering , it's not exactly comforting to live an eternity of torture. If your god just reclaimed the souls that failed to believe in him , and removed them from existence , that'd be fine by me. But no , he has to punish them all in a lowly vengeance.
i don't think a god who runs his justice system like the justice system of a modern nation(the more money(read belief) you have, the easier you get off) deserves my respect, let alone my worship.
by the way, pepe, this is a great discussion, it's really helping my understanding, thuroughly enjoyable.
yeesh... no offense but you religious types need to stop proving to me that your all crazy. I get the point already! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Now to add substance to my post...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The second one deals with the "fairness" of God, and finding a legal loophole in his word. Basically, it comes down to repentance. I belive a person can have a "death bed" conversion and end up on Gods good side (for lack of a better expression) - however, they must truely be repentant for all the sin they have committed in their life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Repentance... It seems like a huge gaping loop hole to do BAD THINGS and not feel bad about them. "say your sorry and all will be ok" No things are NOT ok, you still did that bad thing. Yes we all do bad things at some point in our lives, but as the saying goes... "live and learn". Truely good people will make a solid attempt to not be involved with what they consider bad, Not go to god to make the pain of guilt go away.
Now bear with me please, I just HAD to reply and play devil's advocate, if you will, what if there is (überhaupt) no God TO love or hate? Or hide from? Doesn't that just void out the whole thing? Who is it then you are trying to escape and why?
That mercy is only possible through Christ's death and ressurection as a payment for those things we've done wrong, as Pepe already explained.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes we all do bad things at some point in our lives, but as the saying goes... "live and learn". Truely good people will make a solid attempt to not be involved with what they consider bad, Not go to god to make the pain of guilt go away.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Christ himself says "none are Good, save the Son of Man." We're all so fallen, so rebellious to God, that even when trying to avoid sins, we fall into others. There is quite literally no hope to get to God on our own merit. You yourself aknowledge that everyone does bad things. What you have to realize, is that God's standard is no less than absolute, utter perfection. Something had to be done to restore us to that if we were to have a relationship with God, and that is exactly what Christ has done, pay for those blemishes for us.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->About the christian god : the major reason I find it cruel is the concept of hell , which is cruel not only for atheists , but even for the really bad guys. After a whole life of bad feelings and suffering , it's not exactly comforting to live an eternity of torture. If your god just reclaimed the souls that failed to believe in him , and removed them from existence , that'd be fine by me. But no , he has to punish them all in a lowly vengeance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to understand, that through sin, people have rejected God and everything he stands for. All goodness, all joy, all happiness gone. Not to mention spat in the face of the God who created them, and lest we not forget, died for them. Those people deserve whatever punishment comes to them, if for no other reason than because God is in charge. It's his universe he created, and his system of morality, if he exists, is correct whether we like it or not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->About the christian god : the major reason I find it cruel is the concept of hell , which is cruel not only for atheists , but even for the really bad guys. After a whole life of bad feelings and suffering , it's not exactly comforting to live an eternity of torture. If your god just reclaimed the souls that failed to believe in him , and removed them from existence , that'd be fine by me. But no , he has to punish them all in a lowly vengeance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to understand, that through sin, people have rejected God and everything he stands for. All goodness, all joy, all happiness gone. Not to mention spat in the face of the God who created them, and lest we not forget, died for them. Those people deserve whatever punishment comes to them, if for no other reason than because God is in charge. It's his universe he created, and his system of morality, if he exists, is correct whether we like it or not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what I hate in the christian dogma. Humankind's arbitrarily bad essence.
You have to admit , it's suspiciously useful to christian proselytism ! People are basically forced to convert to that religion , and go to heaven , or to go to hell. Carrot & stick policy.
About god's system of morality... what if we don't accept it ? To me , it looks arbitrary ; yet if god exists I'm doomed since there is no other system avaible. We can't shift to another plane of existence and find another god. So much for giving us free will... it has no use besides sending us right to the eternal flames.
As a child , your parents have the right to decide what's best for you. But when you grow up , you can start questionning their authority and their choices. At 18 you can do whatever you want.
Yet your christian god doesn't give us any choice , we can't question his morality system or even ask for explanations - only blindly obey. God is often mentionned as the "greater father". Quite an uncaring parent if you ask me. Even if we're supposed to still be in our infancy , you have to ask yourself , wouldn't the world be in a better shape if he spend even a little while to explain to us all what he expects us to do ? So far , the last of his words can be found in a small , obsolete book that mostly holds the distorted teachings of the christ's <i>followers</i>... Could you be any more lazy ? It seems that he's grossly overestimating his creation's memory , to think that we could keep his thoughts intact for 2 millenia...