He lives a very good life, he's a nice guy, even the school bullies leave him alone because he helps out with their homework AND teaches then in a way that they can understand. When Jacob graduates from school, he goes on to become a doctor. He donates 3/4 of his salary to charities each and every year, keeping only enough money to live in average comfort. In his time he saves hundreds of lives and helps pioneering research into the cure for cancer, diabetes and aids. When offered the nobel peace prize for his efforts, he states that the award should go to all those in need.
Jacob of course does have his problems. When he was a teenager he did a few drugs and shoplifted a few things, but eventually went on to become the solid member of society he became.
Now, let me finish.
According to what I'm seeing here, Jacob deserves the fiery pits of hell every bit as much as Hitler and Stalin do. Not becuase of any particular crimes, but because Jacob here is an atheist.
I'm sorry but that smells much too much like an effort to scare the living crap out of people and make them convert then it does a true representation of god and the most likely reason for that is because the people that originally wrote the bible changed a few things here and there thus we can be almost certain that we're ALL screwed if a god happens to exist.
Jacob of course does have his problems. When he was a teenager he did a few drugs and shoplifted a few things, but eventually went on to become the solid member of society he became.
Now, let me finish.
According to what I'm seeing here, Jacob deserves the fiery pits of hell every bit as much as Hitler and Stalin do. Not becuase of any particular crimes, but because Jacob here is an atheist.
I'm sorry but that smells much too much like an effort to scare the living crap out of people and make them convert then it does a true representation of god and the most likely reason for that is because the people that originally wrote the bible changed a few things here and there thus we can be almost certain that we're ALL screwed if a god happens to exist. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think Legionarred did a good job of covering this one, but I will try to reiterate in different terms.
It doesn't matter if Jacob Smith did drugs while a teen, or shoplifted, or whatever. Even if he had done none of those things he still would not have lived a Perfect Life. There would have been a though or deed - though not terrible, that still would have been a sin.
God demands perfection. Therefore, unless we have a way to be sinless, we are all doomed. (this is not to say "live without sin" - legally sinless in Gods eyes).
No one can "live without sin" - therefore we need someone to take the blame for that sin for us - and Jesus Christ did that for us. Being "son of God, son of man" he was able to live a sinless life and take the blame for the sin of the world.
It takes a little getting used to, in terms of the concepts. Just try to think of it legally with God demanding perfection, and we are unable to give perfection and are sentenced to Hell as a result of our sin.
Concerning the statement that people changed the Bible - I believe that if God is God, then preserving his word (the Bible) isn't really that hard - after all, he created the world, performs miracles, etc. Yes, God used sinful people to right the Bible, but that does not negate the inspiration those people had, nor his ability to use them to write a "perfect" document - free from changes to scare the crap out of us.
Well , that's the point. Where's justice in dooming billions of individuals to eternal suffering just because they aren't perfect ? It's not like he made us perfect either.
There's no proof that the Bibble is the word of god. If it were written by Jesus himself , it might have been easier to believe in it... anyways there's no original writing avaible , and there's no trace of Jesus' body.
As for the miracles , let's not even talk about them <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Stakhanov+Jul 21 2004, 09:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stakhanov @ Jul 21 2004, 09:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well , that's the point. Where's justice in dooming billions of individuals to eternal suffering just because they aren't perfect ? It's not like he made us perfect either.
There's no proof that the Bibble is the word of god. If it were written by Jesus himself , it might have been easier to believe in it... anyways there's no original writing avaible , and there's no trace of Jesus' body.
As for the miracles , let's not even talk about them <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> actually, in the Christian tradition, God did create us perfect - we fell into sin (Adam and Eve in the garden - tree of the knowledge of good and evil). The justices comes in that God created us perfect, and we can't live up to that perfection. God's demands for perfection dont change, just because we can't live up to it ourselves.
As for proof that the Bible is the word of God - that comes down to belief. The Bible claims that of itself. I challenge you to "prove" that it isn't the word of God.
Jesus will not have a body here on earth - he asscended into heaven after his death - the body would be gone. (all 4 gospels claim this). Jesus isn't the only one though - Enoch, and Elisha (or Elijah - cant remember which) also do not have bodies here on earth - both of them also ascended miraculously into heaven. Moses has a body, but he was "burried by God" so that no one will find it and worship it (1 less relic to find). (P.S. I don't believe in relics.)
Concerning miracles - I refer to the parable I did earlier (sorry about the previous misquote there) - It doesn't matter how miraculous Jesus or the prophets are, there will always be people who don't believe. Even if somone came back from the dead, people wouldn't believe. And that is their perogative. Christianity is a relationship, and you don't have to be in it.
pepe, got a question for you, how can god demand perfection from us, when he is not perfect himself?
if he were perfect he would have been able to make us perfect as well, no? or at least foretell what kinds of decisions we are going to make and determine who's going to be a believer/non-believer, but only if he knows everything. he himself is flawed, because he can't predict the decisions we are going to make, he is not omniscient, or "all knowledable". how can he expect perfection out of us, when he is not perfect himself?
let's put it another way, if we had been created perfect(with no flaws) we would've had no need to "eat from the tree" or anything of the sort. there wouldn't've been a need to, because we would've been perfect.
God is perfect. God created man "in his image" Man is sinless (at creation) - there is no death. Man is tempted - "to be like God, knowing both Good and Evil" Man falls into sin - we know good and evil, but we are not perfect. We die.
God, through this process, has not changed. He remains perfect, and his requirements are the same - perfection. We are unable to meet those requirements, and so we die.
Concerning God's knowledge, he still "knows" all, retains his omnicience. However, he is not responsible for the evil that we do. Yes, he knows the evil that we do, even before we do it. But we still do it - it is our evil and we are the ones responsible for it. He knows who the believers are "I am the shepherd, and I know my sheep". He also knows who the non-believers are. However, every individual human still has that choice to make - to believe or not, and that choice is your (the humans) responsibility.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe_Muffassa+Jul 20 2004, 01:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe_Muffassa @ Jul 20 2004, 01:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Morals arent everything. Being "good" is never good enough. This goes back to creation and God's purpose for us.
God created the universe, the world, and man for his glory. Man fell into sin (garden of eden). If you recolect though, Adam "walked with God" in the garden. God desires that relationship with his creature. He wants us to love him (sounds cheezy, I know, but that is theology 101 for you). Being a non-believer is a rejection of that desire. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Observation does not gel well with that view.
To "walk with god" would be at least as plesant as a discource with another person (to say the least), and would be rewarding. However, the distict impression one gets, assuming that god exists, as that he has chosen to not interfere in the lives of men any longer (an extention of the covenant with Noah, if you will). As for getting into heaven to meet the big guy, I beleive what I said earlier holds.
Also, "to love him" can take many forms. While I am not emotionally attached to this being I have never met, I do appreciate the good things of the world. I think the difference between loving what is right with the world and loving god as a "person" is moot.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, I choose to base my life on something outside of myself. I know I am flawed and sinful - I do stupid things, I am inconsistent. If I have to base my belivef system on me, well, I'm skrood. That is why I chose the Bible, which claims to be the Holy, Inspired, Infallable, Perfect Word of God - and that is a whole lot more convincing and substantial than baseing my beliefs on me. Show me where you base your beliefs, you know mine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is different between faith that you will be saved and trying really hard to ensure it yourself? Is it the thought (trying hard to be good in the best way you know) or the specific actions that count?
johnjacob: Let's not get into the whole problem of evil here. There is at least one thread on the topic already. Besides, assuming that god is entirely, infinately perfect is not a useful exercise anyway, as faith functions basically the same if god is given the smallest possible flaw.
You have given me much to think about Taboo - thankyou. Concerning the 1st half of your post, I realize that I can't debate that. I belive that God expresses his desire to "walk with us" just as much now as he did then - just not as directly. Everyday things people take for granted I try to see as blessings. I look for Gods direction in my life in terms of employment, schooling, marriage - every aspect. To say that God does not "walk with me" would be to deny what I observe - but to each their own.
The second 1/2 is where I can debate. "What is different between faith that you will be saved and trying really hard to ensure it yourself? Is it the thought (trying hard to be good in the best way you know) or the specific actions that count?"
My understanding is this - it comes down to standards. God has a standard - call it standard A. That is what must be achieved to earn a seat in heaven through good works. So I spend every day trying to be good, do good, earn that seat. There is a problem though - that seat requires me living a perfect life (debate perfection all you want, no one is perfect). I am automatically disqualified - as though the game was rigged, as though the deck were stacked. I can not do what is required to earn that seat.
That is the human condition - we have no hope. Enter Jesus - who has provided a way for us.
As you can see, specific actions / sins / good deeds have very little bearing (in a sence) in determining your ultimate state. However, the Bible says very clearly that our actions must match what we confess with our mouth - ie, you cant say you believe then live a life of sin and expect salvation.
In other words, I am saved by Faith (Belief) alone - but my actions must match the confession of my mouth or I have no hope what so ever.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe_Muffassa+Jul 21 2004, 03:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe_Muffassa @ Jul 21 2004, 03:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It doesn't matter how miraculous Jesus or the prophets are, there will always be people who don't believe. Even if somone came back from the dead, people wouldn't believe. And that is their perogative. Christianity is a relationship, and you don't have to be in it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh , if someone came back from the dead that'd be an other story. It's not possible to walk around steadily with an inert heart , so if I saw an actual undead I'd agree that it's a miracle. Same for water instantly chaging into wine before our eyes , or seas disobeying the law of gravity by creating an dry road for the elected people to pass on. But there's no proof for the miracles mentionned in the Bibble , back then there were no cameras to film it , or independant experts to check it wasn't cheap magic.
My point is that the freedom of choice we were supposedly given is an illusion. According to the christian dogma , we can either believe in Jesus and go to heaven , or not and go to hell , right ? We don't have to believe in Jesus if we don't mind going to hell. Just like we don't have to negociate with terrorists though they threaten to nuke large cities. This analogy might shock you , but that's what your dogma looks like to some of us : terrorism. The mere concept of hell is insulting to us atheists , we're doomed for not having any religious inspiration.
<!--QuoteBegin-Stakhanov+Jul 21 2004, 04:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stakhanov @ Jul 21 2004, 04:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Pepe_Muffassa+Jul 21 2004, 03:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe_Muffassa @ Jul 21 2004, 03:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It doesn't matter how miraculous Jesus or the prophets are, there will always be people who don't believe. Even if somone came back from the dead, people wouldn't believe. And that is their perogative. Christianity is a relationship, and you don't have to be in it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh , if someone came back from the dead that'd be an other story. It's not possible to walk around steadily with an inert heart , so if I saw an actual undead I'd agree that it's a miracle. Same for water instantly chaging into wine before our eyes , or seas disobeying the law of gravity by creating an dry road for the elected people to pass on. But there's no proof for the miracles mentionned in the Bibble , back then there were no cameras to film it , or independant experts to check it wasn't cheap magic.
My point is that the freedom of choice we were supposedly given is an illusion. According to the christian dogma , we can either believe in Jesus and go to heaven , or not and go to hell , right ? We don't have to believe in Jesus if we don't mind going to hell. Just like we don't have to negociate with terrorists though they threaten to nuke large cities. This analogy might shock you , but that's what your dogma looks like to some of us : terrorism. The mere concept of hell is insulting to us atheists , we're doomed for not having any religious inspiration. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you know, all those petty miracles (healing of the sick, water into wine) really don't compare to the resurrection of Jesus on the third day. And I'm absolutely positive it happened. No, I did not see it with my own eyes. But there are plenty of people who did, and let's just say that the Jews would have taken any opportunity to crush the Christian movement, especially if they had heard that the apostles were spreading around lies about the resurrection.
*edit* @second part: freedom of choice is not an illusion. you're making it in favor of not believing even as you claim that it is 'not real'. Let's put it this way. God, who created you, is **** off at you because you specifically disobeyed him (every time you screw up, this happens). Because he is perfect and holy, his nature demands that everything imperfect suffer the punishment, which is death. Eventually, you will be raised up and judged according to your actions in life, so people who were credited with righteousness for their faith, like Abraham, will be vindicated, although they were not perfect. In the end, you're making a false analogy. A better one would be that your father tells you to either 'straighten out or leave my house'. You *could* choose not to 'negotiate with him' and act as if he's a terrorist. Although, in that case, you'd just be an ungrateful bastard.
As I said , you can always talk with your parents , and it's not a blasphemy to question their authority (though I admit that it's not pleasant from their side) ; but the christian's god requires a mostly blind faith in him to not go to hell.
My own family may not be wonderful , but I'd hate to have this god as my father <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jul 21 2004, 09:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jul 21 2004, 09:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Eventually, you will be raised up and judged according to your actions in life, so people who were credited with righteousness for their faith, like Abraham, will be vindicated, although they were not perfect. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ahhh! But heres the stumbling block! Jacob Smith by that logic should at least get some measure of recognition. If this god can recognise the evil in this world then by the same token he has to recognise the good in it as well and respect the good that men do as well as the evil they do regardless of their faith.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cronos+Jul 21 2004, 11:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ Jul 21 2004, 11:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jul 21 2004, 09:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jul 21 2004, 09:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Eventually, you will be raised up and judged according to your actions in life, so people who were credited with righteousness for their faith, like Abraham, will be vindicated, although they were not perfect. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ahhh! But heres the stumbling block! Jacob Smith by that logic should at least get some measure of recognition. If this god can recognise the evil in this world then by the same token he has to recognise the good in it as well and respect the good that men do as well as the evil they do regardless of their faith. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I see that you don't understand the full story then.
Abraham was <i>credited</i> with righteousness <i>for his faith</i> when faced with a demand from his God (sacrifice his son, Isaac). God rewarded Abraham for his faith, not because he sacrificed his son. No amount of 'morally good actions' will save you from the judgment. God is not obligated to 'respect' the good anyone does. This is why Job, who iirc was not an Israelite, was accepted by the Lord, because he kept his faith in God.
*edit* alright, since you might want to carry this argument even further, the Bible does address the issue of nonbelievers and hell. Paul's letters, specifically, address it in the following passages:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. Romans 2:12-16 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically, you have a conscience. When you do evil, e.g. cheat someone, you will be held accountable for that at judgment. Really, if you want to see it as 'convert or die', then, yes, it is like that. But I would like for you to remember that, without Jesus, all of us would have died anyway. God wasn't obligated to help us out of the pit that we dug for ourselves, and yet he did.
And also,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him." " Romans 4:1-8<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. " Romans 4:13-15<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. " Romans 3:21-31<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. Romans 5:14 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. Romans 5:18-19 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You see, God owes us nothing. He created us to follow his will, and when we disobey him, we become debtors to him. So he does not owe us accredition of righteousness when we do good works, but he DOES owe us death because we do evil.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jul 22 2004, 12:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jul 22 2004, 12:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You see, God owes us nothing. He created us to follow his will, and when we disobey him, we become debtors to him. So he does not owe us accredition of righteousness when we do good works, but he DOES owe us death because we do evil. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Allow me throw in an interpretation.
A person named (appropriately) "God" was getting rather lonely.
So God creates a beautiful place of his/her own. (think of it like a new mansion complete with pool, bar, and all kinds of goodies) But things stay lonely.
So God decides to make some robots to tinker with. (see angels) Giving each only the tiniest bit of self-awareness and ploppin' a high tech model with a pride chip in charge of 'em. (see Lucifer) They can move things around, but only when certain conditions are met...they have to follow their code.
Well God knew he was taking a gamble* and gonna have trouble with the latest Lucifer model, but it excited him/her to have a challenge (albeit a poorly matched mechanical one).
Eventually, God got lonely again. While he/she had a bunch of robots...they weren't really able to do too many things on their own. Heck, even Lucifer needed permission to bust things up.
So God got this crazy idea. "Why not make something with free will like myself...something that can potentially be as powerful a force as myself and set it in my own image? I mean, it will be a grand ol' time. I'll have someone who can room at my place who I can talk to, and they can actually change the conversation."
Well, he did forsee the problems he could run into, but decided it was a good enough idea. Well everything was working out pretty well til we started moving things around where they shouldn't go, drinking too much and puking on his creations....you know. Bad guest stuff.
So God decided, "hey now! Ya'll better stop messin' stuff up or I'll have to tell ya to go away. If you apologize, mean it, and try to not cause much more trouble you can stay around. Final warning."
He's got just as much right to kick us out of heaven and earth, as you have to kick a destructive party-goer out of your house.
*=This is based on my idea of how God sees things. In my opinion, he does not see a set-in-stone, be-all-and-end-all resolution for us. Rather, he sees all the infinite paths possible to each oth their individual resolutions, which one we are currently on, and through this knows and sees all. So we can maintain free will while God can know when a choice could be made, and what choice we are in-route to make.
He's never surprised, and you are never forced. Until a reckoning of course.
Having grown up in the very stereotype home of the "Religious Right," I've had my fair share of God/Jesus, and every aspect of the Christian mindset. One powerful observation I made about God was that if most people go to hell, which is the simple reality, since in no time have the majority of people been "saved," than there must be something wrong with God, at least the Christian one. If it took him five thousand years to bring a saviour to earth, and before then he had only one group of people that were truly "his children" (most of whom went to hell for being stupid), than his methods don't make any sense.
Think about it: If only 1/5 (and that's a positive fraction, according to the bible, particularly the Book of Revelations) of people who ever lived make it to heaven, and the other 4/5 spend eternity in hell, what does that say about God? And how about the people who never heard His word, or His path (they do exist, don't deny it)? So much for a "just and loving" God.
Now, onto the post: indifference to God? Depends on what God is. I believe in a creator, the evidence is irrefutable, but do I believe in the Jewish/Christian/Muslim God? No. I suppose the best way to describe it is a "passive belief". I don't actively praise, worship, or praise any being (except myself, of course <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->), but I do acknowledge the existence of a spiritual essence that is more powerful than I.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe_Muffassa+Jul 21 2004, 12:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe_Muffassa @ Jul 21 2004, 12:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1) God is perfect. 2) God created man "in his image" 3) Man is sinless (at creation) - there is no death. 4) Man is tempted - "to be like God, knowing both Good and Evil" 5) Man falls into sin - we know good and evil, but we are not perfect. We die. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have a problem here. (I took the liberty of numbering your list.)
If man was perfect (2 and 3, right?) then 4 cannot happen. A perfect being cannot be tempted, surely?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In other words, I am saved by Faith (Belief) alone - but my actions must match the confession of my mouth or I have no hope what so ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My problem with that is that faith/belief is not a conscious decision.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Jul 22 2004, 01:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Jul 22 2004, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Pepe_Muffassa+Jul 21 2004, 12:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe_Muffassa @ Jul 21 2004, 12:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1) God is perfect. 2) God created man "in his image" 3) Man is sinless (at creation) - there is no death. 4) Man is tempted - "to be like God, knowing both Good and Evil" 5) Man falls into sin - we know good and evil, but we are not perfect. We die. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have a problem here. (I took the liberty of numbering your list.)
If man was perfect (2 and 3, right?) then 4 cannot happen. A perfect being cannot be tempted, surely?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In other words, I am saved by Faith (Belief) alone - but my actions must match the confession of my mouth or I have no hope what so ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My problem with that is that faith/belief is not a conscious decision.
Edit: "Man was perfect", not "is". (: <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> sure he can. Jesus was tempted by the devil for 40 days. Plus, it depends how you define perfection <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Snidely, good post, but I fear there are some illogical conclusions there...
First of all, I have never claimed that "man is perfect" - I claim that "man is sinless (at the time of creation)"... Those are very differnt things.
God does not make man... god. He makes man "in his image". God's creation, at the point of creation, is perfect, and without sin. However, man is given the ability to choose, and that choice brings about imperfection.
Concerning faith/belief - it is a very concious decision. It is for eveyone, whatever they believe.
For instance, a belief in evolution involves an acceptance of various facts (fossils appear in stratas) and an interpretation of those facts. However, the evidence is hardly conclusive concerning evolution, nor is evolution the only interpretation of those facts. There is an element of "belief (I believe that creatures evolved over millions of years)" where the evidence is not clear.
The same applies to religious studies - there is plenty of evidence for God, for Jesus, etc. However, there is that small gap called "belief" or "faith" (leap of faith) that must be overcome - and that is a concious decision.
I conceed the first point. (I mistook man for being perfect, since he was made in God's image.)
As for the second point - I wouldn't call it a small gap. It is a large, gaping chasm. Some people, who are athletic in the faith department, can jump it in a single leap. Others, like me, trip over a stone during the run up.
I can't cross that bridge, and I know a few others who can't, either. It's not through lack of trying, nor through lack of want. I just can't make myself have faith in someone who, at the end of the day, may not exist. The fact that He doesn't have a direct bearing on my life also contributes to this, but since I don't have faith, that's pretty irrelevent.
(It doesn't just apply to God. This goes for evolution, too.)
It's a shame, but I haven't been able to change it so far. Maybe one day I'll have this epiphany and it'll all seem so easy; let's hope I don't kick the bucket before then, eh?
I'm a very non-committal person, which is probably why I'm single and I don't date. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
very good analogy - and a great place to stear this topic in a new direction.
The original topic is about Indifference towards god. I believe that it is impossible to be totally indifferent in that any individual will - in there effort to be indiffent towards 1 god, become a willing servant to another god.
For instance, I have on occasion, become subservient to the god of Natual Selection. Not a very impressive god, but a god none the less. Other gods are family, fun, TV, debate, work, athiesm, agnosticism, apathy, exercise, - the list goes on and on.
My point is this - humans are wired to serve something, be it God or god. Indifference towards 1 or more is possible, but indifference towards all is not.
But the very big - and worrying - difference between religions and those pursuits (apart from agnosticism, apathy and atheism*) is that they are related to your daily life and <i>only</i> your daily life. If there is such a thing as an afterlife, there's no assurance that a PC, a Gamecube, or a younger sister will play any part in it.
I would say that out of that list, I was "wired" towards family and gaming. However, I wish I was wired towards family, gaming <i>and God</i>. As it is, I can't muster anything but glum indifference regarding the next life. Because of this, I'm screwed at judgement time. I can't absolve myself of my sins since I can't make myself believe in Jesus. Ah, well.
* <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>I don't think these belong in the list. Agnosticism and apathy are simply states of mind. All they are is "I do not know" and "I do not care". I'm not sure they can be pursued like, for example, enlightenment ("I want to know") or hedonism ("I want to be happy at all costs"). Aetheism is a belief, and as such, doesn't really count as an earthly pleasure. This is all by the by, however.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe_Muffassa+Jul 21 2004, 12:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe_Muffassa @ Jul 21 2004, 12:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You have given me much to think about Taboo - thankyou. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wonderful! I couldn't possibly have asked for more than thinking.
The whole "made in his image" thing is a good example. There are a variety of literal and figurative ways to interpret that, and what comes to mind first could easily not represent the intended meaning.
Most famously, it can be taken to mean god normally looks much like we do (though he could look like whatever he likes), such as in the Sistine Chapel.
The more specific meaning of "free-willed" from the above analogy is probably much closer to the truth, as well as more meaningful (who cares what god looks like? It wouldn't make a difference), yet chances aren't good it's the first thing that would pop in your mind.
Comments
A man, lets call him Jacob Smith, is born.
He lives a very good life, he's a nice guy, even the school bullies leave him alone because he helps out with their homework AND teaches then in a way that they can understand. When Jacob graduates from school, he goes on to become a doctor. He donates 3/4 of his salary to charities each and every year, keeping only enough money to live in average comfort. In his time he saves hundreds of lives and helps pioneering research into the cure for cancer, diabetes and aids. When offered the nobel peace prize for his efforts, he states that the award should go to all those in need.
Jacob of course does have his problems. When he was a teenager he did a few drugs and shoplifted a few things, but eventually went on to become the solid member of society he became.
Now, let me finish.
According to what I'm seeing here, Jacob deserves the fiery pits of hell every bit as much as Hitler and Stalin do. Not becuase of any particular crimes, but because Jacob here is an atheist.
I'm sorry but that smells much too much like an effort to scare the living crap out of people and make them convert then it does a true representation of god and the most likely reason for that is because the people that originally wrote the bible changed a few things here and there thus we can be almost certain that we're ALL screwed if a god happens to exist.
A man, lets call him Jacob Smith, is born.
Jacob of course does have his problems. When he was a teenager he did a few drugs and shoplifted a few things, but eventually went on to become the solid member of society he became.
Now, let me finish.
According to what I'm seeing here, Jacob deserves the fiery pits of hell every bit as much as Hitler and Stalin do. Not becuase of any particular crimes, but because Jacob here is an atheist.
I'm sorry but that smells much too much like an effort to scare the living crap out of people and make them convert then it does a true representation of god and the most likely reason for that is because the people that originally wrote the bible changed a few things here and there thus we can be almost certain that we're ALL screwed if a god happens to exist. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Legionarred did a good job of covering this one, but I will try to reiterate in different terms.
It doesn't matter if Jacob Smith did drugs while a teen, or shoplifted, or whatever. Even if he had done none of those things he still would not have lived a Perfect Life. There would have been a though or deed - though not terrible, that still would have been a sin.
God demands perfection. Therefore, unless we have a way to be sinless, we are all doomed. (this is not to say "live without sin" - legally sinless in Gods eyes).
No one can "live without sin" - therefore we need someone to take the blame for that sin for us - and Jesus Christ did that for us. Being "son of God, son of man" he was able to live a sinless life and take the blame for the sin of the world.
It takes a little getting used to, in terms of the concepts. Just try to think of it legally with God demanding perfection, and we are unable to give perfection and are sentenced to Hell as a result of our sin.
Concerning the statement that people changed the Bible - I believe that if God is God, then preserving his word (the Bible) isn't really that hard - after all, he created the world, performs miracles, etc. Yes, God used sinful people to right the Bible, but that does not negate the inspiration those people had, nor his ability to use them to write a "perfect" document - free from changes to scare the crap out of us.
There's no proof that the Bibble is the word of god. If it were written by Jesus himself , it might have been easier to believe in it... anyways there's no original writing avaible , and there's no trace of Jesus' body.
As for the miracles , let's not even talk about them <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There's no proof that the Bibble is the word of god. If it were written by Jesus himself , it might have been easier to believe in it... anyways there's no original writing avaible , and there's no trace of Jesus' body.
As for the miracles , let's not even talk about them <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually, in the Christian tradition, God did create us perfect - we fell into sin (Adam and Eve in the garden - tree of the knowledge of good and evil). The justices comes in that God created us perfect, and we can't live up to that perfection. God's demands for perfection dont change, just because we can't live up to it ourselves.
As for proof that the Bible is the word of God - that comes down to belief. The Bible claims that of itself. I challenge you to "prove" that it isn't the word of God.
Jesus will not have a body here on earth - he asscended into heaven after his death - the body would be gone. (all 4 gospels claim this).
Jesus isn't the only one though - Enoch, and Elisha (or Elijah - cant remember which) also do not have bodies here on earth - both of them also ascended miraculously into heaven. Moses has a body, but he was "burried by God" so that no one will find it and worship it (1 less relic to find). (P.S. I don't believe in relics.)
Concerning miracles - I refer to the parable I did earlier (sorry about the previous misquote there) - It doesn't matter how miraculous Jesus or the prophets are, there will always be people who don't believe. Even if somone came back from the dead, people wouldn't believe. And that is their perogative. Christianity is a relationship, and you don't have to be in it.
if he were perfect he would have been able to make us perfect as well, no? or at least foretell what kinds of decisions we are going to make and determine who's going to be a believer/non-believer, but only if he knows everything. he himself is flawed, because he can't predict the decisions we are going to make, he is not omniscient, or "all knowledable". how can he expect perfection out of us, when he is not perfect himself?
let's put it another way, if we had been created perfect(with no flaws) we would've had no need to "eat from the tree" or anything of the sort. there wouldn't've been a need to, because we would've been perfect.
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> ...curious.
God created man "in his image"
Man is sinless (at creation) - there is no death.
Man is tempted - "to be like God, knowing both Good and Evil"
Man falls into sin - we know good and evil, but we are not perfect. We die.
God, through this process, has not changed. He remains perfect, and his requirements are the same - perfection. We are unable to meet those requirements, and so we die.
Concerning God's knowledge, he still "knows" all, retains his omnicience. However, he is not responsible for the evil that we do. Yes, he knows the evil that we do, even before we do it. But we still do it - it is our evil and we are the ones responsible for it. He knows who the believers are "I am the shepherd, and I know my sheep". He also knows who the non-believers are. However, every individual human still has that choice to make - to believe or not, and that choice is your (the humans) responsibility.
God created the universe, the world, and man for his glory. Man fell into sin (garden of eden). If you recolect though, Adam "walked with God" in the garden. God desires that relationship with his creature. He wants us to love him (sounds cheezy, I know, but that is theology 101 for you). Being a non-believer is a rejection of that desire. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Observation does not gel well with that view.
To "walk with god" would be at least as plesant as a discource with another person (to say the least), and would be rewarding. However, the distict impression one gets, assuming that god exists, as that he has chosen to not interfere in the lives of men any longer (an extention of the covenant with Noah, if you will). As for getting into heaven to meet the big guy, I beleive what I said earlier holds.
Also, "to love him" can take many forms. While I am not emotionally attached to this being I have never met, I do appreciate the good things of the world. I think the difference between loving what is right with the world and loving god as a "person" is moot.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, I choose to base my life on something outside of myself. I know I am flawed and sinful - I do stupid things, I am inconsistent. If I have to base my belivef system on me, well, I'm skrood. That is why I chose the Bible, which claims to be the Holy, Inspired, Infallable, Perfect Word of God - and that is a whole lot more convincing and substantial than baseing my beliefs on me. Show me where you base your beliefs, you know mine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is different between faith that you will be saved and trying really hard to ensure it yourself? Is it the thought (trying hard to be good in the best way you know) or the specific actions that count?
johnjacob: Let's not get into the whole problem of evil here. There is at least one thread on the topic already. Besides, assuming that god is entirely, infinately perfect is not a useful exercise anyway, as faith functions basically the same if god is given the smallest possible flaw.
Concerning the 1st half of your post, I realize that I can't debate that. I belive that God expresses his desire to "walk with us" just as much now as he did then - just not as directly. Everyday things people take for granted I try to see as blessings. I look for Gods direction in my life in terms of employment, schooling, marriage - every aspect. To say that God does not "walk with me" would be to deny what I observe - but to each their own.
The second 1/2 is where I can debate. "What is different between faith that you will be saved and trying really hard to ensure it yourself? Is it the thought (trying hard to be good in the best way you know) or the specific actions that count?"
My understanding is this - it comes down to standards. God has a standard - call it standard A. That is what must be achieved to earn a seat in heaven through good works.
So I spend every day trying to be good, do good, earn that seat. There is a problem though - that seat requires me living a perfect life (debate perfection all you want, no one is perfect). I am automatically disqualified - as though the game was rigged, as though the deck were stacked. I can not do what is required to earn that seat.
That is the human condition - we have no hope. Enter Jesus - who has provided a way for us.
As you can see, specific actions / sins / good deeds have very little bearing (in a sence) in determining your ultimate state. However, the Bible says very clearly that our actions must match what we confess with our mouth - ie, you cant say you believe then live a life of sin and expect salvation.
In other words, I am saved by Faith (Belief) alone - but my actions must match the confession of my mouth or I have no hope what so ever.
Uh , if someone came back from the dead that'd be an other story. It's not possible to walk around steadily with an inert heart , so if I saw an actual undead I'd agree that it's a miracle. Same for water instantly chaging into wine before our eyes , or seas disobeying the law of gravity by creating an dry road for the elected people to pass on. But there's no proof for the miracles mentionned in the Bibble , back then there were no cameras to film it , or independant experts to check it wasn't cheap magic.
My point is that the freedom of choice we were supposedly given is an illusion. According to the christian dogma , we can either believe in Jesus and go to heaven , or not and go to hell , right ? We don't have to believe in Jesus if we don't mind going to hell. Just like we don't have to negociate with terrorists though they threaten to nuke large cities. This analogy might shock you , but that's what your dogma looks like to some of us : terrorism. The mere concept of hell is insulting to us atheists , we're doomed for not having any religious inspiration.
Uh , if someone came back from the dead that'd be an other story. It's not possible to walk around steadily with an inert heart , so if I saw an actual undead I'd agree that it's a miracle. Same for water instantly chaging into wine before our eyes , or seas disobeying the law of gravity by creating an dry road for the elected people to pass on. But there's no proof for the miracles mentionned in the Bibble , back then there were no cameras to film it , or independant experts to check it wasn't cheap magic.
My point is that the freedom of choice we were supposedly given is an illusion. According to the christian dogma , we can either believe in Jesus and go to heaven , or not and go to hell , right ? We don't have to believe in Jesus if we don't mind going to hell. Just like we don't have to negociate with terrorists though they threaten to nuke large cities. This analogy might shock you , but that's what your dogma looks like to some of us : terrorism. The mere concept of hell is insulting to us atheists , we're doomed for not having any religious inspiration. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you know, all those petty miracles (healing of the sick, water into wine) really don't compare to the resurrection of Jesus on the third day. And I'm absolutely positive it happened. No, I did not see it with my own eyes. But there are plenty of people who did, and let's just say that the Jews would have taken any opportunity to crush the Christian movement, especially if they had heard that the apostles were spreading around lies about the resurrection.
*edit* @second part: freedom of choice is not an illusion. you're making it in favor of not believing even as you claim that it is 'not real'.
Let's put it this way. God, who created you, is **** off at you because you specifically disobeyed him (every time you screw up, this happens). Because he is perfect and holy, his nature demands that everything imperfect suffer the punishment, which is death. Eventually, you will be raised up and judged according to your actions in life, so people who were credited with righteousness for their faith, like Abraham, will be vindicated, although they were not perfect.
In the end, you're making a false analogy. A better one would be that your father tells you to either 'straighten out or leave my house'. You *could* choose not to 'negotiate with him' and act as if he's a terrorist. Although, in that case, you'd just be an ungrateful bastard.
My own family may not be wonderful , but I'd hate to have this god as my father <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Ahhh! But heres the stumbling block! Jacob Smith by that logic should at least get some measure of recognition. If this god can recognise the evil in this world then by the same token he has to recognise the good in it as well and respect the good that men do as well as the evil they do regardless of their faith.
Ahhh! But heres the stumbling block! Jacob Smith by that logic should at least get some measure of recognition. If this god can recognise the evil in this world then by the same token he has to recognise the good in it as well and respect the good that men do as well as the evil they do regardless of their faith. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see that you don't understand the full story then.
Abraham was <i>credited</i> with righteousness <i>for his faith</i> when faced with a demand from his God (sacrifice his son, Isaac). God rewarded Abraham for his faith, not because he sacrificed his son. No amount of 'morally good actions' will save you from the judgment. God is not obligated to 'respect' the good anyone does. This is why Job, who iirc was not an Israelite, was accepted by the Lord, because he kept his faith in God.
*edit* alright, since you might want to carry this argument even further, the Bible does address the issue of nonbelievers and hell. Paul's letters, specifically, address it in the following passages:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Romans 2:12-16
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically, you have a conscience. When you do evil, e.g. cheat someone, you will be held accountable for that at judgment. Really, if you want to see it as 'convert or die', then, yes, it is like that. But I would like for you to remember that, without Jesus, all of us would have died anyway. God wasn't obligated to help us out of the pit that we dug for ourselves, and yet he did.
And also,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
"
Romans 4:1-8<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
"It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
"
Romans 4:13-15<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. "
Romans 3:21-31<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
Romans 5:14
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Romans 5:18-19
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You see, God owes us nothing. He created us to follow his will, and when we disobey him, we become debtors to him. So he does not owe us accredition of righteousness when we do good works, but he DOES owe us death because we do evil.
Allow me throw in an interpretation.
A person named (appropriately) "God" was getting rather lonely.
So God creates a beautiful place of his/her own. (think of it like a new mansion complete with pool, bar, and all kinds of goodies) But things stay lonely.
So God decides to make some robots to tinker with. (see angels) Giving each only the tiniest bit of self-awareness and ploppin' a high tech model with a pride chip in charge of 'em. (see Lucifer) They can move things around, but only when certain conditions are met...they have to follow their code.
Well God knew he was taking a gamble* and gonna have trouble with the latest Lucifer model, but it excited him/her to have a challenge (albeit a poorly matched mechanical one).
Eventually, God got lonely again. While he/she had a bunch of robots...they weren't really able to do too many things on their own. Heck, even Lucifer needed permission to bust things up.
So God got this crazy idea. "Why not make something with free will like myself...something that can potentially be as powerful a force as myself and set it in my own image? I mean, it will be a grand ol' time. I'll have someone who can room at my place who I can talk to, and they can actually change the conversation."
Well, he did forsee the problems he could run into, but decided it was a good enough idea. Well everything was working out pretty well til we started moving things around where they shouldn't go, drinking too much and puking on his creations....you know. Bad guest stuff.
So God decided, "hey now! Ya'll better stop messin' stuff up or I'll have to tell ya to go away. If you apologize, mean it, and try to not cause much more trouble you can stay around. Final warning."
He's got just as much right to kick us out of heaven and earth, as you have to kick a destructive party-goer out of your house.
*=This is based on my idea of how God sees things. In my opinion, he does not see a set-in-stone, be-all-and-end-all resolution for us. Rather, he sees all the infinite paths possible to each oth their individual resolutions, which one we are currently on, and through this knows and sees all. So we can maintain free will while God can know when a choice could be made, and what choice we are in-route to make.
He's never surprised, and you are never forced. Until a reckoning of course.
Think about it: If only 1/5 (and that's a positive fraction, according to the bible, particularly the Book of Revelations) of people who ever lived make it to heaven, and the other 4/5 spend eternity in hell, what does that say about God? And how about the people who never heard His word, or His path (they do exist, don't deny it)? So much for a "just and loving" God.
Now, onto the post: indifference to God? Depends on what God is. I believe in a creator, the evidence is irrefutable, but do I believe in the Jewish/Christian/Muslim God? No. I suppose the best way to describe it is a "passive belief". I don't actively praise, worship, or praise any being (except myself, of course <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->), but I do acknowledge the existence of a spiritual essence that is more powerful than I.
2) God created man "in his image"
3) Man is sinless (at creation) - there is no death.
4) Man is tempted - "to be like God, knowing both Good and Evil"
5) Man falls into sin - we know good and evil, but we are not perfect. We die. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a problem here. (I took the liberty of numbering your list.)
If man was perfect (2 and 3, right?) then 4 cannot happen. A perfect being cannot be tempted, surely?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In other words, I am saved by Faith (Belief) alone - but my actions must match the confession of my mouth or I have no hope what so ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My problem with that is that faith/belief is not a conscious decision.
Edit: "Man was perfect", not "is". (:
2) God created man "in his image"
3) Man is sinless (at creation) - there is no death.
4) Man is tempted - "to be like God, knowing both Good and Evil"
5) Man falls into sin - we know good and evil, but we are not perfect. We die. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a problem here. (I took the liberty of numbering your list.)
If man was perfect (2 and 3, right?) then 4 cannot happen. A perfect being cannot be tempted, surely?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In other words, I am saved by Faith (Belief) alone - but my actions must match the confession of my mouth or I have no hope what so ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My problem with that is that faith/belief is not a conscious decision.
Edit: "Man was perfect", not "is". (: <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sure he can. Jesus was tempted by the devil for 40 days.
Plus, it depends how you define perfection <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
First of all, I have never claimed that "man is perfect" - I claim that "man is sinless (at the time of creation)"... Those are very differnt things.
God does not make man... god. He makes man "in his image". God's creation, at the point of creation, is perfect, and without sin. However, man is given the ability to choose, and that choice brings about imperfection.
Concerning faith/belief - it is a very concious decision. It is for eveyone, whatever they believe.
For instance, a belief in evolution involves an acceptance of various facts (fossils appear in stratas) and an interpretation of those facts. However, the evidence is hardly conclusive concerning evolution, nor is evolution the only interpretation of those facts. There is an element of "belief (I believe that creatures evolved over millions of years)" where the evidence is not clear.
The same applies to religious studies - there is plenty of evidence for God, for Jesus, etc. However, there is that small gap called "belief" or "faith" (leap of faith) that must be overcome - and that is a concious decision.
As for the second point - I wouldn't call it a small gap. It is a large, gaping chasm. Some people, who are athletic in the faith department, can jump it in a single leap. Others, like me, trip over a stone during the run up.
I can't cross that bridge, and I know a few others who can't, either. It's not through lack of trying, nor through lack of want. I just can't make myself have faith in someone who, at the end of the day, may not exist. The fact that He doesn't have a direct bearing on my life also contributes to this, but since I don't have faith, that's pretty irrelevent.
(It doesn't just apply to God. This goes for evolution, too.)
It's a shame, but I haven't been able to change it so far. Maybe one day I'll have this epiphany and it'll all seem so easy; let's hope I don't kick the bucket before then, eh?
I'm a very non-committal person, which is probably why I'm single and I don't date. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The original topic is about Indifference towards god. I believe that it is impossible to be totally indifferent in that any individual will - in there effort to be indiffent towards 1 god, become a willing servant to another god.
For instance, I have on occasion, become subservient to the god of Natual Selection. Not a very impressive god, but a god none the less. Other gods are family, fun, TV, debate, work, athiesm, agnosticism, apathy, exercise, - the list goes on and on.
My point is this - humans are wired to serve something, be it God or god. Indifference towards 1 or more is possible, but indifference towards all is not.
I would say that out of that list, I was "wired" towards family and gaming. However, I wish I was wired towards family, gaming <i>and God</i>. As it is, I can't muster anything but glum indifference regarding the next life. Because of this, I'm screwed at judgement time. I can't absolve myself of my sins since I can't make myself believe in Jesus. Ah, well.
* <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>I don't think these belong in the list. Agnosticism and apathy are simply states of mind. All they are is "I do not know" and "I do not care". I'm not sure they can be pursued like, for example, enlightenment ("I want to know") or hedonism ("I want to be happy at all costs"). Aetheism is a belief, and as such, doesn't really count as an earthly pleasure. This is all by the by, however.</span>
Wonderful! I couldn't possibly have asked for more than thinking.
The whole "made in his image" thing is a good example. There are a variety of literal and figurative ways to interpret that, and what comes to mind first could easily not represent the intended meaning.
Most famously, it can be taken to mean god normally looks much like we do (though he could look like whatever he likes), such as in the Sistine Chapel.
The more specific meaning of "free-willed" from the above analogy is probably much closer to the truth, as well as more meaningful (who cares what god looks like? It wouldn't make a difference), yet chances aren't good it's the first thing that would pop in your mind.