You could also bump up the attack rate or possibly make them hit-scan weapons as well. Although I do like the fact that smart marines can corner fire to clear them.
It's not such a big weakness. It takes at least a clip to take one out and most marines (that aliens should worry about) don't carry enough ammo to take out 2 OCs. Plus, they are vulnerable while attacking. If you are wily enough you can draw him back to the OC to suppliment your attack.
<!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Jul 24 2004, 10:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Jul 24 2004, 10:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Aliens are very fast. Skulks are exellent scouts. Have them parasite as well to help. The aliens should be communicating with each otehr, telling each otehr where the marines are. It's not THAT hard to patrol the important areas. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> An alien who is running around lost on the map isn't being very useful. To ask that out of 7 aliens, you have one or two always gorging, then have one or two waste their time looking in empty halls is rediculous: Skulks need to run in a pack to be effective against marines since they suck so much now. Besides, I don't see the marines having to patrol hallways and aren't ALIENS supposed to be the sneaky ones?
That and it's pretty easy to hide from even a skulk in a dark corner since aliens have no way of seeing in the dark (gg ns_bast). Not everyone plays with jacked gamma like you do.
Watch out before Nemesis Zero takes the fluff down <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Zek, you have some good ideas. I especially liked the one that slows the marine down. I would opt for making them weaker and slowing the marine down, giving the job mainly for the player, rather than the Oc (nerubian towers in WC3).
I believe the game of NS with OCs is alright. The fact is that the gorge just needs to add one or two more OCs to his farm and it'll be balanced. Something like making Ocs cost 5 res is too gamechanging.
Make the gorge 5 res. Make starting res 20. Make lerk 25.
Hmm... I'm just going to point out the obvious since everyone else is afraid to and be labled "pr0-marine NEWB".
Ready, here it is:
<b><i><u>OC's are better than turrets!!</u></i></b>
Commentator: *GASP* I can't believe he said it...
OC's are much much better than turrets.
First of all, they are cheaper. It costs 10 res for the OC and 10 res for the gorge.
Versus a turret farm, you need at least 3 turrets to be effective, plus the turret factory itself is 40 res.
40 marine res is still less than 20 alien res, but that's beside the point, because those 3 turrets are worthless if there is a hole in the turret farm defense. Kill one turret with a pack of skulks, and then have one skulk bite the TF in a blind spot and the whole thing is junk to 3 free skulks.
Versus a marine who guns down OC's, it costs ammo, which also costs res.
Second of all, turrets are only effective if used in a hot spot, because you could buy a shotgun for the same cost of one turret. Turrets therefore suck terribly in terms of killing power. They have to be in an incredibly tight situation, like seiging a hive, in order to be even remotely useful.
Where as aliens are always defending, meaning OC's always have their use.
Also, OC's take ammo to kill... and that same ammo could have been used on killing an alien, which means marines who attack an OC better have backup, or else they will be defense once some alerted skulks come rushing by to investigate and kill the marine.
Better yet, a skulk camps nearby the OC, meaning the marine cannot do the following:
a.) Charge, as a skulk is right around the courner, and to focus on fighting the skulk leaves him vulerable to the OC
b.) Shoot the OC, because then he has what? A pistol clip at best to defend himself from a charging skulk, make it 2 skulks and the marine is dead.
Since an alien can switch between biting a structure and player with no consequence (unlimited ammo), that means the OC is simply a better version of the turret because it softens marine armor while also being a bullet sponge.
Also, like I said before, marines have a SG as the alternative cost to a turret... versus a gorge for an OC? OC please!
And for even (yet more) more proof OC's are better than turrets, just look at clanplay. In clanplay turrets are used waaaaaaaaay more often than turrets. I see OC's so common place, and I think they are really good investments as aliens, and I recommend to my gorges all the time if they have extra res plop down an OC.
Whereas if I see a comm put down a turret factory and turrets down outside of a siege spot, I will immediately vote to eject him (esp. in clan play, cut the sucker from the clan for gods sake), because turrets are generally a huge waste of res.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
edited July 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Jul 25 2004, 11:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Jul 25 2004, 11:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Jul 24 2004, 10:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Jul 24 2004, 10:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Aliens are very fast. Skulks are exellent scouts. Have them parasite as well to help. The aliens should be communicating with each otehr, telling each otehr where the marines are. It's not THAT hard to patrol the important areas. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> An alien who is running around lost on the map isn't being very useful. To ask that out of 7 aliens, you have one or two always gorging, then have one or two waste their time looking in empty halls is rediculous: Skulks need to run in a pack to be effective against marines since they suck so much now. Besides, I don't see the marines having to patrol hallways and aren't ALIENS supposed to be the sneaky ones?
That and it's pretty easy to hide from even a skulk in a dark corner since aliens have no way of seeing in the dark (gg ns_bast). Not everyone plays with jacked gamma like you do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Umm I frequently tell my marines to go RTs where gorges are likely to build and hunt. On the alien side in an organized game EVERY alien who is not a gorge actively scouts and relays informations and parasites before attempting the kill. You patrol as you go FROM one area to another, and you'll run into a marine soon enough. If you don't understand how to be organized, you can't win as aliens. The fact that the individual skulk needs to be beefed up is another matter, which I totally agree on. Please, get some experience before coming back.
Oh, and what's this jacked-up you speak you speak of? Obviously you have MUCH more experience with it than I do, so you can explain this to all of us.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 25 2004, 04:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 25 2004, 04:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Stuff! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OCs have a WONDERFUL attacking method... this involves shooting the walls where the player used to be. If you dont have more then 2 OCs a marine can simply hop around and take minimal damage. Try hopping up and down crouched, yay... the OC is useless! "Oh but trev... teh skulkz... no ammo... and... THEY COME AND EAT EM!" marine's deliberately heading out to kill OCs will not only take extra ammo... but a second person to cover while the destruction of the pitiful OCs occur. If not backed up by more then 1 DC, destroying them is really really quick. Add shotguns to the mix and you'll be hearing "structure is un... dead".
Yes the OC did it's job of alerting the alien team of marine's heading into a area, but it cost you 20-30 res in the process. Gorges dont have this "spare" res untill end game. People are afraid of gorging to build things like OCs and chambers because of the TEN RES gorging cost... it is pointless to make the gorge cost ten res when the alien team already paid for it through losing an attacking unit.It would be nice if once you evolved into a evolution, you can enter and exit that free of charge short of a small gestation period. this way I could see 10 res OCs actually viable, but alas, that fade must hold onto his 70-100 res because once he gorges he loses the 50 res fade.
How do we fix it? clearly pointless alien nerfs are the solution, why break the wonderful trend we've been seeing these past few updates?
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Remove RFK, change thr res system for the alins so gorges get more percentage of the res (and while we're at it change it os big games don't screw aliens over and small games won't always be an alien win), and make gorging cost like 2 res.
<!--QuoteBegin-Icejelly+Jul 25 2004, 06:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Icejelly @ Jul 25 2004, 06:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if im not wrong, in a previous build of NS, SC actually gave SOF in an area around it, wonder where that went. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You are, in fact, wrong. In 1.0x, sensory chambers played a sound audible to all aliens saying "The Enemy Approaches" whenever a marine got near said SC. It did not display the marine on the hivesight. Heck, I don't think it even displayed the SC in question on the hivesight. The assumption was that the SC would only be in a hive, and thus if you heard the voice, you should run back to the hive.
Guess how useful that was.
About as useful as the "physically touching a SC parasites the marine", really. Even marines wanting to knife a SC need'nt fear, since the knife range was longer than the "touching" range for being stained. SC chambers used to be completely USELESS. Horribly horribly horribly so.
As a side note, I agree that 3.0x OCs aren't very useful. That is to say, they have a use, and can be worth something, but aren't worth the cost (in time and resources) to be put down. I also agree with making gorging free or 2 res, and lowering alien start res. Being able to freely gestate between forms you've purchased that "life" would also help this situation, allowing a fade or an onos to use those resources earned.
Comments
It's not such a big weakness. It takes at least a clip to take one out and most marines (that aliens should worry about) don't carry enough ammo to take out 2 OCs. Plus, they are vulnerable while attacking. If you are wily enough you can draw him back to the OC to suppliment your attack.
An alien who is running around lost on the map isn't being very useful. To ask that out of 7 aliens, you have one or two always gorging, then have one or two waste their time looking in empty halls is rediculous: Skulks need to run in a pack to be effective against marines since they suck so much now. Besides, I don't see the marines having to patrol hallways and aren't ALIENS supposed to be the sneaky ones?
That and it's pretty easy to hide from even a skulk in a dark corner since aliens have no way of seeing in the dark (gg ns_bast). Not everyone plays with jacked gamma like you do.
Zek, you have some good ideas. I especially liked the one that slows the marine down. I would opt for making them weaker and slowing the marine down, giving the job mainly for the player, rather than the Oc (nerubian towers in WC3).
I believe the game of NS with OCs is alright. The fact is that the gorge just needs to add one or two more OCs to his farm and it'll be balanced. Something like making Ocs cost 5 res is too gamechanging.
Make the gorge 5 res. Make starting res 20. Make lerk 25.
Ready, here it is:
<b><i><u>OC's are better than turrets!!</u></i></b>
Commentator: *GASP* I can't believe he said it...
OC's are much much better than turrets.
First of all, they are cheaper. It costs 10 res for the OC and 10 res for the gorge.
Versus a turret farm, you need at least 3 turrets to be effective, plus the turret factory itself is 40 res.
40 marine res is still less than 20 alien res, but that's beside the point, because those 3 turrets are worthless if there is a hole in the turret farm defense. Kill one turret with a pack of skulks, and then have one skulk bite the TF in a blind spot and the whole thing is junk to 3 free skulks.
Versus a marine who guns down OC's, it costs ammo, which also costs res.
Second of all, turrets are only effective if used in a hot spot, because you could buy a shotgun for the same cost of one turret. Turrets therefore suck terribly in terms of killing power. They have to be in an incredibly tight situation, like seiging a hive, in order to be even remotely useful.
Where as aliens are always defending, meaning OC's always have their use.
Also, OC's take ammo to kill... and that same ammo could have been used on killing an alien, which means marines who attack an OC better have backup, or else they will be defense once some alerted skulks come rushing by to investigate and kill the marine.
Better yet, a skulk camps nearby the OC, meaning the marine cannot do the following:
a.) Charge, as a skulk is right around the courner, and to focus on fighting the skulk leaves him vulerable to the OC
b.) Shoot the OC, because then he has what? A pistol clip at best to defend himself from a charging skulk, make it 2 skulks and the marine is dead.
Since an alien can switch between biting a structure and player with no consequence (unlimited ammo), that means the OC is simply a better version of the turret because it softens marine armor while also being a bullet sponge.
Also, like I said before, marines have a SG as the alternative cost to a turret... versus a gorge for an OC? OC please!
And for even (yet more) more proof OC's are better than turrets, just look at clanplay. In clanplay turrets are used waaaaaaaaay more often than turrets. I see OC's so common place, and I think they are really good investments as aliens, and I recommend to my gorges all the time if they have extra res plop down an OC.
Whereas if I see a comm put down a turret factory and turrets down outside of a siege spot, I will immediately vote to eject him (esp. in clan play, cut the sucker from the clan for gods sake), because turrets are generally a huge waste of res.
Conclusion, <img src='http://gallery.cybertarp.com/albums/userpics/19537/OC%7E0.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> > <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif' /><!--endemo-->
An alien who is running around lost on the map isn't being very useful. To ask that out of 7 aliens, you have one or two always gorging, then have one or two waste their time looking in empty halls is rediculous: Skulks need to run in a pack to be effective against marines since they suck so much now. Besides, I don't see the marines having to patrol hallways and aren't ALIENS supposed to be the sneaky ones?
That and it's pretty easy to hide from even a skulk in a dark corner since aliens have no way of seeing in the dark (gg ns_bast). Not everyone plays with jacked gamma like you do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm I frequently tell my marines to go RTs where gorges are likely to build and hunt. On the alien side in an organized game EVERY alien who is not a gorge actively scouts and relays informations and parasites before attempting the kill. You patrol as you go FROM one area to another, and you'll run into a marine soon enough. If you don't understand how to be organized, you can't win as aliens. The fact that the individual skulk needs to be beefed up is another matter, which I totally agree on. Please, get some experience before coming back.
Oh, and what's this jacked-up you speak you speak of? Obviously you have MUCH more experience with it than I do, so you can explain this to all of us.
OCs have a WONDERFUL attacking method... this involves shooting the walls where the player used to be. If you dont have more then 2 OCs a marine can simply hop around and take minimal damage. Try hopping up and down crouched, yay... the OC is useless! "Oh but trev... teh skulkz... no ammo... and... THEY COME AND EAT EM!" marine's deliberately heading out to kill OCs will not only take extra ammo... but a second person to cover while the destruction of the pitiful OCs occur. If not backed up by more then 1 DC, destroying them is really really quick. Add shotguns to the mix and you'll be hearing "structure is un... dead".
Yes the OC did it's job of alerting the alien team of marine's heading into a area, but it cost you 20-30 res in the process. Gorges dont have this "spare" res untill end game. People are afraid of gorging to build things like OCs and chambers because of the TEN RES gorging cost... it is pointless to make the gorge cost ten res when the alien team already paid for it through losing an attacking unit.It would be nice if once you evolved into a evolution, you can enter and exit that free of charge short of a small gestation period. this way I could see 10 res OCs actually viable, but alas, that fade must hold onto his 70-100 res because once he gorges he loses the 50 res fade.
How do we fix it? clearly pointless alien nerfs are the solution, why break the wonderful trend we've been seeing these past few updates?
You are, in fact, wrong. In 1.0x, sensory chambers played a sound audible to all aliens saying "The Enemy Approaches" whenever a marine got near said SC. It did not display the marine on the hivesight. Heck, I don't think it even displayed the SC in question on the hivesight. The assumption was that the SC would only be in a hive, and thus if you heard the voice, you should run back to the hive.
Guess how useful that was.
About as useful as the "physically touching a SC parasites the marine", really. Even marines wanting to knife a SC need'nt fear, since the knife range was longer than the "touching" range for being stained. SC chambers used to be completely USELESS. Horribly horribly horribly so.
As a side note, I agree that 3.0x OCs aren't very useful. That is to say, they have a use, and can be worth something, but aren't worth the cost (in time and resources) to be put down. I also agree with making gorging free or 2 res, and lowering alien start res. Being able to freely gestate between forms you've purchased that "life" would also help this situation, allowing a fade or an onos to use those resources earned.