Thanks 'browse Games' For Ruining My Server.

LitoLito Join Date: 2003-09-04 Member: 20560Members
Look. I know we were all noobs once. We all had to suffer through the whole "OMG, RTFM, NOOB!" and the whole feeling of not knowing what the heck is going on.

I realise that noobs are the seedlings of NS's community's future. I help noobs. I want to help them. That makes my server a better place to play on when the players are more informed and skilled.

Steam updated a while ago, and many were happy about NS being on the top of the list of the third part mods on 'Browse Games'. This update brought a HUGE wave of noobs into the community. My server alone was flooded with them; often me being the only regular on. These weren't the "Man, I have no idea what i'm doing. Hey, whats this? Oh, an armory...I can get ammo from it" noobs, these were the "What the hell is going on? This sucks. Get me into the action damnit. This game is so boring. Oh a shotgun! I can kill stuff now!". They don't want to learn, they can't learn and all they care about is their own personal enjoyment of the game (and thus ruining said enjoyment for other players on his/her team).

So what have we done about it? There are various ways that have popped up to combat noobs: The manual, NSGuide, NSLearn, and Combat are just a few that i can think of off of my head.
And how effective are they?

The manual is boring, lengthy, and outdated. Even if it were great, and updated, only a few noobs would read it. All they care about is "OMG I WANT 2 B DA COMMANDOR". They take one look at the manual, say 'screw it, this is boring, i want to show how leet of a commander I am...i've played ALL the blizzard games, i can't lose!' Hop on a server, grab the chair, play around thinking that they can pick this game up fast, just like counter strike and DOD.

This isn't counter strike and DOD. NS, compared to the latter, has a very large learning curve. I myself learned it by a combination of reading the outdated 1.04 manual and playing many many games. This is a commitment that many of the newer players will not make.

NSGuide was a nice idea. I liked it. I liked the idea that people were actually selected to help noobs. It alleviated some of my time teaching to play a fun game. However NS guides arn't everywhere, the messaging command they use to message players with help are not different than regular text. They are ignored, and no one gets helped. The first thing on the mind of noobs is to have fun. In counter strike and DOD, you get fun, you have two steps: 1. Point. 2. Fire. Not as simple in NS where teamwork really does make a difference. They don't realise this, or more likely, they don't care. They try to have fun, and screw thier team in the process.

NSLearn, a learning program set up by FireWater, is not convinient. They first must go on the channel, message an instructor, and set up a date to learn. Thats great and all when you've got the basics down and you want to learn more about NS, but very few noobs will go through this process to learn. That means that they will only learn when it is convinient for them ie. on the server they play on, but if they do that, they're really just NSGuides without the nifty icon or special messaging command.

Combat is the most effective noob learning tool. Its similarity to Counter Strike and DOD is striking. In fact, many noobs feel at home when they play Combat games. Thats great, but what does this do for NS classic? Not much. They're just a little less clueless on weaponry and shooting. In fact, it produces the annoying "Comm drop me a better gun" noobs that don't do jack until they get a shotgun, rambo out of base, die, cry, spawn, then ask for another one. I'm not bashing combat. In fact, the easiness to learn Combat attracted many new players to the community. Combat has helped this community grow, but in a time where Steam is helping too, Combat's main reason to exist is mostly lost. Combat needs to do more than just teach them all the weaponry in the game and game mechanics. It needs to do alot more than immerse them into the NS atmosphere. It must teach them aspects of NS classic, or Combat will be compeltely useless in terms of making the community grow. It only serves to make the Combat community grow. We want epic games. We need a clan base, and combat isn't helping. Have you heard of a Combat clan? yeah, neither have I.

I don't think there is much there is to be done. One thing that pops to mind is manditory training. In America's Army, you must go through several basic training courses before you can play the game online. This probably can't be done, and will probably discourage some noobs. But if it decreases the general baffledness of the noob stream thats being funneled in by Steam's Browse Games, then I think its worth it. Just an idea.

Yes. I'm ****. tommorow morning i'll probably reread this and ask myself "What the hell was I thinking?". If any part of this article has offended you, i'm sorry, but this is how I feel.

Flame away~
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Comments

  • CutterJoeCutterJoe Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11594Members, Constellation
    Bravo lito. I agree 100%. I too try to help out the noobs flooding servers but all I get is the cold shoulder or a 'I dont care about that. I want to kill something' attitude that comes with 75% of these noobs (a conservative estimate of course). But oh well I will continue to try and educate 'the unlearnt' and hope for the best.

    I try to avoid combat nowadays. It seems to be quite flooded with the 'I WANTZ TO KILLZORS THAT OHNOES WITH MY 1337 G47L1NG GUNZORS'.
  • SatertekSatertek Join Date: 2002-12-22 Member: 11372Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited August 2004
    I read though your post, and I really like the idea of a required training mode. You mentioned America's Army, they are long (and sometimes annoying) training missions but after you've finished them, you pretty much know everything about the game there is to know. The biggest problem with that would be, how to set up some kind of system so that everyone would have to complete training before playing, and that you wouldn't be forced to redo training after a reinstall.

    Even a simple quiz before joining a server would be better than nothing. If you don't get enough correct answers it will refer you to the NS manual.

    The guide program is starting to rev up again, and hopefully the dev team can include some sort of guide-only features to help people out.
  • douchebagatrondouchebagatron Custom member title Join Date: 2003-12-20 Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    do the guides have icons by their names?
  • LitoLito Join Date: 2003-09-04 Member: 20560Members
    edited August 2004
    Yes. A purple heavy armor icon. That doesn't exactly help until the faitful "What do those icons mean?" question pops up. In which case this is a good noob, and he would be well on his way to learning the game. What we need is to get through the arrogant noobs that don't care about learning.
  • SatertekSatertek Join Date: 2002-12-22 Member: 11372Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited August 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-Lito+Aug 7 2004, 11:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lito @ Aug 7 2004, 11:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes.  A purple heavy armor icon.  That doesn't exactly help until the faitful "What do those icons mean?" question pops up.  In which case this is a good noob, and he would be well on his way to learning the game.  What we need is to get through the arrogant noobs that don't care about learning. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Thats why the guides are gonna need some power to be of any help.

    I bet there are other threads about it, but they need at least some unique way of communication.
  • LitoLito Join Date: 2003-09-04 Member: 20560Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Satertek+Aug 7 2004, 11:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Satertek @ Aug 7 2004, 11:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Lito+Aug 7 2004, 11:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lito @ Aug 7 2004, 11:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes.  A purple heavy armor icon.  That doesn't exactly help until the faitful "What do those icons mean?" question pops up.  In which case this is a good noob, and he would be well on his way to learning the game.  What we need is to get through the arrogant noobs that don't care about learning. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Thats why the guides are gonna need some power to be of any help.

    I bet there are other threads about it, but they need at least some unique way of communication. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    They do. They have a special messaging system that sort of works like admin_psay that only NSGuides can use. But its bugged, and the text that they send isn't special in any way, so its easily lost in the game text chats.
  • 999Hydralisk999Hydralisk Join Date: 2004-04-13 Member: 27907Members
    I feel your pain... I don't mind noobs that want to learn at all. The ones that tell you to shove it... Now thats a different story...
  • NessNess Join Date: 2002-12-17 Member: 10935Members, Reinforced - Onos
    edited August 2004
    Hrm, self edited. Don't know if that's supposed to be known yet or not.
  • LitoLito Join Date: 2003-09-04 Member: 20560Members
    edited August 2004
  • douchebagatrondouchebagatron Custom member title Join Date: 2003-12-20 Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    is the autohelp still outdated? i remember it helping me when i first started, but it confused me some because it was outdated a bit. i started playing in 2.0 and i do believe the autohelp was from 1.04
  • LitoLito Join Date: 2003-09-04 Member: 20560Members
    Everything that is geared towards helping new players learn the game is pretty much outdated.
  • NecrosisNecrosis The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation
    You would wonder if some sort of mini-tutorial could be run ingame, sort of like the Auto Commander in Combat. I know in Combat the AC can drop you health/ammo and the like, but its hard for players to equate the AC with a *real* Commander.

    Ideally you would run the tutorial, it'd spawn you in, it'd waypoint the CC, tell you what it is, make the "Commander" drop an Armory, explain it, and explain building, then drop an IP and explain it.

    I mean, thats how most RTS games break you in - "These are resources! This is your command centre! Here's where the troops come from!". I know autohelp does give some handy messages, but I'm willing to bet they appear whenever you're trying to mutilate something and thus have no time to read.

    When I got into NS last year I just followed orders and built at waypoints, etc, but then I didn't come from another HL mod. If players have a preconceived notion of how the game goes then it might hamper their growth.

    I game the same server as Lito and had the joy of seeing someone attempt to kick the commander because the commander wouldn't drop him a better gun. Understand that we were earlygame, didn't have a lot of res, and the aliens had no upgrades....... But then some players will never be helped and will always grief the commander/other marines.




    You don't know how hard all that was to type without saying "cornmandor".
  • LitoLito Join Date: 2003-09-04 Member: 20560Members
    The problem is not that we don't have a tutorial. We could grab a mapper and make a nice tutorial for NS. The problem is how do we get them to play through it?
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    The game needs a tutorial, badly. Will it ever happen? Probably not, at least not until the future major patches.

    On the short term there isn't much you can do about it. Wait it out; the tards who only feel like shooting things will go back to CS, DoD and TFC. In the meantime, admin aggressively and kick anyone that isn't receptive to advice or willing to learn. You're just going to have to be really patient with the ones that are learning and don't take any crap from the ones that aren't.
  • LinoleumLinoleum Join Date: 2004-08-08 Member: 30448Members
    edited August 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Aug 8 2004, 12:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Aug 8 2004, 12:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The game needs a tutorial, badly. Will it ever happen? Probably not, at least not until the future major patches.

    On the short term there isn't much you can do about it. Wait it out; the tards who only feel like shooting things will go back to CS, DoD and TFC. In the meantime, admin aggressively and kick anyone that isn't receptive to advice or willing to learn. You're just going to have to be really patient with the ones that are learning and don't take any crap from the ones that aren't. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    But seeing as how theres somewhere around 30,000 of those "CS, DoD, TFC" people out there and seeing as how not everyone immediately downloads every single TP mod there is I would personally predict a long steady flow of them coming out, sure it will be less people in time but I think a very nice solution would be the training program mentioned earlier. Nothing long and tedious but then again nothing any 2 year old can randomly click through and pass in 5 minutes. Also have it start on the very first game they play and don't let them play until they have completed it. One for the aliens and one for the marines. And as for the agressive admin part, might not work out well with people willing to learn, but having trouble with the controls.
  • ultranewbultranewb Pro Bug Hunter Join Date: 2004-07-21 Member: 30026Members
    I had the nicety of learning the game with everyone else on even ground, because on "day one" nobody knew what was going on or how to play (1.0). Everyone was happy to help everyone else learn what they figured out about the game. That day has long since passed. Now, I've seen too few noobs that want to learn and it has left a sour taste in my mouth. I shant waste my breath on some 15 year old e-thug wanna be either >>([muted])<<.

    The only words of wisdom I can say is "ride the storm out". The undesirable players will either a)learn b)stop playing or c)migrate to servers with other like-minded players.
  • RisikoRisiko Join Date: 2004-04-09 Member: 27821Members
    edited August 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think there is much there is to be done. One thing that pops to mind is manditory training. In America's Army, you must go through several basic training courses before you can play the game online. This probably can't be done, and will probably discourage some noobs. But if it decreases the general baffledness of the noob stream thats being funneled in by Steam's Browse Games, then I think its worth it. Just an idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This would work wonders. Honestly, this game has a very steep learning curve. Anyone coming into the game now has a huge curve to overcome if they want to play NS - they have to <b>hunt down</b> information about NS classic. You cannot hop into an NS classic server and ask people how to do stuff while playing, it just annoys them. There are no single player training maps, no in-game tutorial - hell, even if the manual was good it still isn't a substitute for trying things out for yourself. The very fact that the vast majority of players in NS are quite good players is, for many new players, not only overwhelming but frustrating too.

    As difficult as it is, some sort of training missions would be superb. Even if they weren't mandatory, the majority of new players would use them.
  • LinoleumLinoleum Join Date: 2004-08-08 Member: 30448Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Risiko+Aug 8 2004, 01:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Risiko @ Aug 8 2004, 01:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As difficult as it is, some sort of training missions would be superb. Even if they weren't mandatory, the majority of new players would use them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You say that, but remember the audience steam usually gets. Unless its entirely blatent that in order to understand the game you must go through the tutorial I doubt 20% will go through with it.
  • titaniumtitanium Join Date: 2003-10-31 Member: 22166Members
    i only have one thing to say in response to lito

    <img src='http://www.nspug.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
  • RueRue Join Date: 2002-10-21 Member: 1564Members
    If I can remember correcly there is already someone working on a training map for NS.

    I belive that the main problem is that on the 'browse games' screen it actualy said 'easy to pick up and learn'. I mean WTH?

    Obviously this was flayra's decision because it he was to have put 'Very steep learning curve and very complex gameplay' then people would pass it by and look at Sven-Coop and think 'oh this looks like a good pick up and play game'
  • ZaggyZaggy NullPointerException The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-12-10 Member: 24214Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Onos, Subnautica Playtester
    edited August 2004
    Uh oh, we really need to get some way of training done..!

    OMG OMG NUBCAEKS!!!1 F4 F4


    NS for is just NOT a point'n shoot game, teamwork/ambushing/building/strategies..!
  • ZaggyZaggy NullPointerException The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-12-10 Member: 24214Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Onos, Subnautica Playtester
    <!--QuoteBegin-Risiko+Aug 8 2004, 01:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Risiko @ Aug 8 2004, 01:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think there is much there is to be done. One thing that pops to mind is manditory training. In America's Army, you must go through several basic training courses before you can play the game online. This probably can't be done, and will probably discourage some noobs. But if it decreases the general baffledness of the noob stream thats being funneled in by Steam's Browse Games, then I think its worth it. Just an idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Hey...perhaps THATS the BUS >)
  • SoberanaSoberana Join Date: 2003-06-25 Member: 17695Members
    edited August 2004
    Don't give up. When I command, I have noticed an influx of newbies lately, but I dont give up on them so easy. They will learn. People are not as stupid as you think. It took me a while to learn the ins and outs of the game because I was kind of younger and less clever. Now, if I go to another game, I learn really quicker. Our fellow humans are not as dumb or slow as you think. If they want help, they will ask for it. If you are a server admin, the best you can do is be there for them. Its like being a parent. Your child sometimes will have to make mistakes, and you have to let them do it so they will learn, its the only way, trust me, its the only way.

    Because sometime they will ask themselves, "How can I be a better asset?", and you will be right there, with open arms, and idle hands ready to informate a fellow human.

    And.... <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>I HATE TFARMING COMMANDERS THAT GIVE MARINES LATE UPGRADES >:(</span>
  • SariselSarisel .::&#39; ( O ) &#39;;:-. .-.:;&#39; ( O ) &#39;::. Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18557Members, Constellation
    It is funny... everything NS has been done without propper organization and planning beforehand. Now you have an influx of new players (which is a good thing, even though there will be a significant portion of bad apples - and this is something you either learn to live with or move on from the game out of frustration). New players are a sorely needed asset to NS, but what is going to keep the players from leaving out of frustration? Not everybody is patient. You might say "to hell with those that are not patient", "only the smart and persistent ones will stay". However, it isn't as simple as that. If help in the game was that much more accessible, there would be more quality players in a shorter period of time with less bad side effects.

    Hopefully in the future Flayra will include adequate planning before opening the floodgates. Otherwise the water goes to waste.
  • ThinGThinG Lord of wub and vlaai Join Date: 2003-04-11 Member: 15400Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited August 2004
    If this thread has a point, it should have a point <a href='http://www.steampowered.com/' target='_blank'>here</a> and not <b>here</b>.
  • wallerwaller Join Date: 2004-04-28 Member: 28281Members
    A good way to get them to play a training map would to name it something like

    CO_KILLMINDLESSLy


    j/k

    There's already a training map being built. i forget by who, check the mapping section Sadly i don't know how to get the nubs to play it though.
  • SalvationSalvation Join Date: 2003-11-21 Member: 23300Members
    i just played on one of the those flooded servers


    sadface

    hopefully this is just a phase <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • mirrodinmirrodin Join Date: 2004-06-29 Member: 29621Members
    edited August 2004
    The frontiersmen manual needs to be given an update. I wouldn't mind helping with that. Remember there is no way we can make the newbies learn. They must choose to learn and then we can teach them "teh leet skillz". A training map is being made by some mapper. The sad thing is that many people will not read the manual and will just jump into the pub and the top of the server list. Hell that's what I did when I began. Mind you I haven't play CS for a LONG time, If I had I'me sure I would of been wondering WTH is going on.

    Another good thing new players can do is set up a LAN server with bots (we could put up a tutorial), this would allow them to learn maps and strategies while playing. And no one would be patronizing (or something) to them while they do so.

    EDIT: werd! It's 4 AM, cut me some slack on my grammer... I'm too tired to edit it...
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-Lito+Aug 8 2004, 06:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lito @ Aug 8 2004, 06:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem is not that we don't have a tutorial. We could grab a mapper and make a nice tutorial for NS. The problem is how do we get them to play through it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=76128' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=76128</a>

    Force them to enter the "Hazard Course" before enabling the Find servers option?
  • jumpingjodajumpingjoda Join Date: 2003-12-14 Member: 24367Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    I see manny new players recently, first i ask them if they are playing for first time. Mostly the answer is yes. Manny of them are nice people, and i take some time to tell them how to build as alien and not to build mc/sc without asking ^^''.
    Give them something they had in no other mod, say "welcome to ns", be nice.
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