Guide To Mine Placement

SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Banned
edited August 2004 in Frontiersmen Strategy
<div class="IPBDescription">Mine placement (buildings)</div> Recently I've seen a lot of people asking about how mines should be placed around the IP's etc.

The first thing you have to realise about mines is that they are not there to defend the base, that's the marine's job. Mines are there to protect spawning marines and give them a half decent chance of killing a skulk in the base on their own.

With no mines, a skulk will be thinking 100% about where the marine is, where he's looking and how to kill him.

With a relatively well placed mine pack, the skulk is thinking about where the 4 mines are, how not to hit them, and has 5 things to worry about killing him instead of 1.

That is the reason mines are there, so that base rushers will mess up and land on a mine when a marine is shooting at them. They are definitively NOT there to defend the base on their own.

Here is an example of how to place mines on an IP.

<img src='http://img15.exs.cx/img15/5780/IP1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Notice that the mines are not placed on the IP itself, but are placed in close proximity to it, this is so that the skulk less room around the IP which isn't close to a mine.


Now I'll give some examples of other useful places to put mines.

<u> Phase Gates </u>



<img src='http://img63.exs.cx/img63/3779/PG1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Any good com will prefer to mine a PG than TFac it, and its usually best to place the mines in the same way as the IP examples.

However, as the picture shows it is possible to hide most of the visible mine model inside the PG. It is quite possible to hide the entire mine inside the PG, I left it half out to show you where to place them.


<u> Resource Towers </u>


<img src='http://img63.exs.cx/img63/9492/RT1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://img62.exs.cx/img62/7356/RT2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />


This is a little known trick, but you can place the mines so that they are hidden under the legs of the RT model. This makes them almost impossible to see if you are moving any faster than a walk. Place 2 mines in the back legs of any RT and I can guarantee that you will score at least a few kills.

<img src='http://img25.exs.cx/img25/5828/RT3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

You can also place a mine or 2 on the central nozzle part of the RT, which could be kind of problematic for any skulks hoping to much it.


<u> Aggressive Mine Placement </u>


Sometimes on a pub you'll find yourself with a few spare mines, or being told to place mines to harass the other team. These are a few pointers as to how to place mines aggressively.


<img src='http://img17.exs.cx/img17/8361/door1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Placing mines in front of doors like this means that any skulk running blindly into the room will hit the mine before they even see it.


Another good place to put mines is around blind corners so that skulks who don't strafe check around will simply run into the mine before they have time to react, again a few examples.

<img src='http://img17.exs.cx/img17/6861/blind2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://img15.exs.cx/img15/8961/Blind1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />



<b>5 Top tips from Windelkron</b>
1) underneath "lips" in level geometry - this is an example of mining near MS
<img src='http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/windelkron/ex1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

2) underneath "lips" in level geometry - in an out-of-the-blue spot. in seldom used hallways like
these, enemies will <b>not</b> be careful.
<img src='http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/windelkron/ex5.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

3) on stairs - EXCELLENT trick. I've killed onos in 1 step with these (needed 2 packs, though)
<img src='http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/windelkron/ex2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

4) above ramps. This seems silly, but it works incredibly well - they just can't see it from the bottom.
<img src='http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/windelkron/ex4.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

5) creative mine placement - think how fast skulks come bounding out of caged's Sewer hive...
right into this mine.
<img src='http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/windelkron/ex3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />



<u> Mine Ladders </u>

Placed mines can be stood on, this allows you to place a diagonal row of mines like a set of stairs, which in turn allows you to reach vents etc which are normally unaccessible to the LA marine.

<img src='http://img56.exs.cx/img56/288/mineladder1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://img56.exs.cx/img56/8726/mineladder2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://img61.exs.cx/img61/6278/mineladder3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />





Well, that's my Mine Placement guide so far, comments and suggestions please and I'll try to update it to reflect what I missed/got wrong.

(sticky?)

Credits:
SpaceJesus (meh)
Windelkron (for some neat aggressive mining examples)
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Comments

  • keep_it_Gangstakeep_it_Gangsta Join Date: 2003-06-23 Member: 17632Members
    Yeah man good examples, especially with the RT's and PG's.

    Commanders should use mines more regularly, this will help nub marines on placing them,
  • Mr_JeburtOMr_JeburtO Join Date: 2003-08-29 Member: 20340Members
    mines ftw dont waste res on getting a tf and turrets.

    and also dont forget u can place mines "in" the res nozzel and the are half hidden as well <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Banned
    edited August 2004
    ::EDIT:: Updated screens (IP and RT) and new section added (Agressive Mining) ::EDIT::
  • LitoLito Join Date: 2003-09-04 Member: 20560Members
    I'm having a hard time seeing how mining the ip like that is better than if you were to lay it on the ip itself.
  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Banned
    edited August 2004
    If you spawned with a skulk attacking you what's the first thing you're going to do? You're going to move, and that placement gives the largest area around the IP, which in turn gives the marine the most time to shoot the skulk whilst dancing between the mines.
    If they were simply planted on the IP itself the skulk would jump, bite the marine, the marine would move away from the IP, and the marine would then have next to no help to kill the skulk.


    The point is to give the skulk more things to worry about killing him than just the marine. The idea is that the skulk tries to dodge the marines fire, and lands on a mine, which is extremely unlikely if the mines are only placed on the IP itself.
    and to quote my original post:

    "The first thing you have to realise about mines is that they are not there to defend the base, that's the marine's job."
  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Banned
    *bump*

    any chance of a sticky?
  • keep_it_Gangstakeep_it_Gangsta Join Date: 2003-06-23 Member: 17632Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Lito+Aug 17 2004, 05:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lito @ Aug 17 2004, 05:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm having a hard time seeing how mining the ip like that is better than if you were to lay it on the ip itself. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yeah your right, you american?
  • jammnojammno Join Date: 2004-01-31 Member: 25832Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-keep it *G*angsta+Aug 18 2004, 08:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (keep it *G*angsta @ Aug 18 2004, 08:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Lito+Aug 17 2004, 05:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lito @ Aug 17 2004, 05:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm having a hard time seeing how mining the ip like that is better than if you were to lay it on the ip itself. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yeah your right, you american? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    What is that supposed to mean?

    You should show detailed pictures for newbies who don't know how to use mines as a ladder to reach vents / make floating forts for onos attacks.
  • Deus_Ex_MachinaDeus_Ex_Machina Join Date: 2004-07-01 Member: 29674Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Lito+Aug 17 2004, 11:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lito @ Aug 17 2004, 11:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm having a hard time seeing how mining the ip like that is better than if you were to lay it on the ip itself. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well, why lay them on the IP? The sure the skulk could stand on top of the IP, but when the 'rine spawns you're going to have a telefragged skulk..
  • rnnrnn Join Date: 2003-11-13 Member: 22756Members, Constellation
    On the rare occasions when I command on public I place the basestructures in a corner "far" away from the CC. If someone tries to bite anything, I jump out. One well placed minepack is always good to have though.
  • OrganoXOrganoX Join Date: 2004-03-21 Member: 27473Members
    Nice placements.
    When i looked at the pg picture, i didnt even see the mines first <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • NukeAJSNukeAJS Join Date: 2004-05-04 Member: 28443Members
    I defiantly mine agressively in CO maps, works so good.

    I didn't know you can hide mines inside of structures. That's pretty neato.
  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Banned
    Will add a mine ladder section tomorrow (its 4:00am here in the UK) with the appropriate pics.

    Anyone think this is sticky-worthy?
  • degamer106degamer106 Join Date: 2004-05-09 Member: 28550Banned
    hmm those are pretty good mine placements imo.

    but the first picture with the three mines around the ip...that's kind of strange. (I think if you place the mines closer it might work a little better?).
    If the ip is far away from the com chair and lets say skulk comes to chew on it, the com can jump out of the chair causing the skulk to freak out or something and hit the mine.

    O and the picture of the opening to teh hallway where the mine is on the right side...hmm...placing the mine in the center might fare better. Really dependent on what is coming around the corner. If its a skulk, he might hit the mine if its on the side. A fade might not since they usually blink either towards the center of the doorway or the ove the mine. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    Onos will probably just hit everything..
  • BreakfastSausagesBreakfastSausages Join Date: 2002-12-19 Member: 11148Members
    I think the issue with the ip example is more one of the ip being placed in a in an wide open position than incorrect mine placement. The location of that ip has no serious influence on how the skulks will need/want to approach it so it can't really be efficiently defended.

    Aside from that this is great advice about mines, I think every new player (and some old ones) would do well to learn about mines being the second line of defense.


    Another useful fact regarding mines is that alien spawn point locations are written into the map so round to round in a given hive the spawn points are always in exactly the same spots. If you learn these spots you can put a mine there and a new skulk will explode before he even knows he is alive.
  • NecrosisNecrosis The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation
    Which may lead to you getting banned from some servers for spawnkilling. Always check the rules.
  • WhiteRabbitWhiteRabbit Join Date: 2004-08-08 Member: 30456Members
    I just hope CHeezy Peteza didnt see this thread <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
    Frags, Res and Skulk! i mean dead skulk <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Banned
    edited August 2004
    This thread is a guide on how and where to place mines, not the advantages/disadvantages of using them, nor is it a guide on how to place buildings properly.

    I agree that IP's need to be placed in a wide open area away from walls etc, but what I am trying to show is how to best employ mines once the commander has given them to you.

    I know I'd much rather have an IP mined if I'm going to be spawning there with a skulk or 2 trying to munch me.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The location of that ip has no serious influence on how the skulks will need/want to approach it so it can't really be efficiently defended.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You seem to be missing the point sir. The entire point of mine placement in this manner is NOT to defend the IP. Guarding buildings is the marine's job. Guarding marines however, is the mine's job.

    Although C&C is always appreciated, I'll try to get that mine ladder section up a bit later.
  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Banned
  • ekentekent Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7801Members
    I have some issues with this mine placement.

    To mine an IP you should place them on or as close to the ip as possible. You can cover it with two or three and leave no spot for the skulk to munch, whereas that ip has four spots a skulk can munch on. I know you're going to say he can't dodge a marine because if he moves he will blow up, but in that case why place the mines any way? A skulk can't hide behind an ip.

    That leads neatly to my next point, which is that you need to take into account the sight lines in a room. A single pack of mines and a single spawning marine should be able to instantly kill any single skulk in the room. The commander should be able to cover the ip. Place the ip where you will be aiming right at it when you hop out of the chair. Place the armory in the middle of the room. Place the upgrade structures against walls and within sight of the ip. Place mines against the back side of every building (backside respective to the spawning marine).

    As far as mining rts, I like to place two mines on opposite sides of the rt directly on the nozzle model. If you place it far enough from the gas but still within the model you can hide the entire mine in the model and it will explode if a skulk tries to munch it.

    Mines can be used to kill fades. It's pretty rare that mines will finish the fade but frequently they'll allow you to nail him in the back as he's fleeing. To do it, think about where on the map you <i>always</i> touch ground when blinking. In ns_eclipse, right inside the doors is great since you have to stop blinking while the doors open (usually I won't place these until after the fade is in the room, so they explode when he leaves). On ns_origin, I place mines on the vertical section of the stairs leading out of marine start. Also on origin I place mines right at the bottom of the small elevator in cargo.

    I always shoot for a 3 kill average with a pack of four mines. I do count kill assists since hey thats fair right? Think like an alien and you'll get lots of mine kills.
  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Banned
    edited August 2004
    I intended this as more of a pub players guide, I am aware better methods are about, but I'd rather educate 100 people on how to place mines relatively intelligently than teach 10 to place mines like a CAL vet.
    Although I agree with some of your points.
  • LitoLito Join Date: 2003-09-04 Member: 20560Members
    When you spawn, you usually can't react to the first bite. So they jump, bite and land ON the ip. Wouldn't that be correct?
  • keep_it_Gangstakeep_it_Gangsta Join Date: 2003-06-23 Member: 17632Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Lito+Aug 22 2004, 05:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lito @ Aug 22 2004, 05:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When you spawn, you usually can't react to the first bite. So they jump, bite and land ON the ip. Wouldn't that be correct? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    No.

    The first reaction of any marine (with skill) is to run/jump to try and dodge the attack.
  • LitoLito Join Date: 2003-09-04 Member: 20560Members
    edited August 2004
    Unless you have lightning fast reaction times, or the skulk is exceptionally slow, you're not dodging that first bite, and he will land on the ip unless he suddenly leaps out of the way in midair. He might not land on it, but he'll clip it one way or another.
  • Kevlar_GorillaKevlar_Gorilla Join Date: 2004-04-20 Member: 28048Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-SpaceJesus+Aug 17 2004, 11:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SpaceJesus @ Aug 17 2004, 11:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "The first thing you have to realise about mines is that they are not there to defend the base, that's the marine's job." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is the best fact I've read in a while.
  • ScytheScythe Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 46NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver
    A very nice guide, some nifty tricks I hadn't heard of before.

    Next time would you consider resizing the shots down to 800x600?

    <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    --Scythe--
  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Banned
    I'm adding the mine ladder section today (honest!).

    Also I'm gonna start work on a pub commander's guide to ns_veil sometime soon.
  • j3stj3st Join Date: 2004-06-28 Member: 29602Members
    i just hate it when marines put a mine in the middle of a ladder (especially if it is a crucial one).. like the ladder which leads to the reactor room in ns_tanith.

    from then on marines just can't get up it!! or am i missing something here? (assuming it's a server where there's no friendly fire)
  • wallerwaller Join Date: 2004-04-28 Member: 28281Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-j3st+Aug 23 2004, 02:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (j3st @ Aug 23 2004, 02:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i just hate it when marines put a mine in the middle of a ladder (especially if it is a crucial one).. like the ladder which leads to the reactor room in ns_tanith.

    from then on marines just can't get up it!! or am i missing something here? (assuming it's a server where there's no friendly fire) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    By mine ladder he doesn't mean that.
    If you place a mine on a wall, you can then jump on it, then once you're on that mine you place another a little bit higher, simulating a ladder effect.
    If you didn't understand that which i highly doubt you did, subscribe to this thread, and read his guide once he's wrote it. (Grammar?)
  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Banned
    either "read the guide when he has written it"
    or "read his guide when it has been written"

    <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    Stamping down on the scum of the universe ....... bad grammar and the misuse of apostrophies.
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