A Better Onos
Windelkron
Join Date: 2002-04-11 Member: 419Members
Join Date: 2002-04-11 Member: 419Members
<div class="IPBDescription">warning radical</div> Hey. this was posted in S&I because I am a law abiding forumgoer. But obviously not many people check S&I seriously. So I am reprinting my idea here so it might get some intelligent replies (in stark contrast to the S&I version of this thread).
<span style='color:white'>august 31, 2004:
<span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'><b>Here is an edit</b> because people don't understand the point of this thread.</span>
<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>The onos is unbalanced. All of us can attest to that. We don't have a consistent answer to WHY it is unbalanced, though, and as a result, HP/armor changes only continue to muddle the issue.
The problem with the onos is that there are 2 contrasting styles of play - Tank and Hit-and-Run. Raising HP to make "Tank" more viable ingame makes Hit-and-Run overpowered </span>(where the HP of the Onos is too high for a marine team to counter a hit-and-run devour attack). <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><b>There can only be one solution to this balance problem, and this is to utterly eliminate one of these two styles of play. </b> Once the Onos is used in a consistent manner, it will become much easier to balance. </span>
<span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:lime'>The way to do this is by REMOVING THE DEVOUR ATTACK COMPLETELY.</span></span>
<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'> There is no in-between, no nerfing of the attack, that can accomplish the same thing. Devour must be removed.</span></span>
Now on to the original post:
Onos is a theme breaker in the current version of NS. Instead of being a huge, fearsome, nigh-invincible, juggernaut, it has become what the fade ought to be - a hit and run creature. March in base, stomp, devour, stomp, escape. Where's the giant space cow role in that? It's pathetic. Also, charge sucks.
My suggestion would be to remove BOTH stomp and devour, and change charge. <i>Radical!!!</i>
- <b>Remove devour, </b>bring back primal scream.
why? devour is the #1 cause of the onos' mixed-up role. Devour is a method of taking a single marine away from the group and killing him in safety. That's something for a fade to do (kill 1 player at a time to take down a squad), not Onos. It should be apparent to everybody why devour doesn't quite fit with the onos.
- <b>Remove stomp, </b>bring back the old paralyze.
why? stomp is too easy to use and too area-effective, and thus encourages spamming (because it's so effect to spam stomp). Paralyze lets the onos stun 1 player at a time, bringing back more strategy to the onos game, by creating choices for the onos (stun LA/HMG or JP/SG?)
- <b>Change charge.</b> <span style='color:white'>(this idea is purely speculative, do not let the "my own idea" nature of this part affect the evaluation of the other parts of this post, which are based on previous builds.)</span>
why? Charge is a silly ability as it is now; it's either extremely easy to dodge or horrifyingly sudden to the point where the victims say "WTH bugs?" before they realize they've been trampled by a big space cow. The current ability to direct charge (basically giving you more speed and insta-damage, but otherwise all controls remain the same) makes the Onos too player-specific - he can single out a single HA suit and charge him to death, rather than deal indiscriminate damage.
anyway, change charge this way:
User holds down key to "charge up" the charge. Upon release, the Onos charges straight forward.
It should be hard or impossible for the Onos to change direction during this charge.
Also, to make up for the fact that the Onos can't change direction, the enemies in the path of the charge (think the area of the current stomp) should be immobile or very slow. This way, there's a possibility of getting out of the way, but not much.
cons: how to code it so onos can't move sideways while charging??
- perhaps lock mouse sensitivity to 0 and let A and D keys control orientation (think CS vehicles)
: how to make players in path of charge move slower?
- This could be accomplished by forcing cl_sidespeed, cl_forwardspeed, etc, to a very low number - say 40 (if default is 400).
: What about primal scream?
- lerks could get back spikes!
<span style='color:white'>august 31, 2004:
<span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'><b>Here is an edit</b> because people don't understand the point of this thread.</span>
<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>The onos is unbalanced. All of us can attest to that. We don't have a consistent answer to WHY it is unbalanced, though, and as a result, HP/armor changes only continue to muddle the issue.
The problem with the onos is that there are 2 contrasting styles of play - Tank and Hit-and-Run. Raising HP to make "Tank" more viable ingame makes Hit-and-Run overpowered </span>(where the HP of the Onos is too high for a marine team to counter a hit-and-run devour attack). <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><b>There can only be one solution to this balance problem, and this is to utterly eliminate one of these two styles of play. </b> Once the Onos is used in a consistent manner, it will become much easier to balance. </span>
<span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:lime'>The way to do this is by REMOVING THE DEVOUR ATTACK COMPLETELY.</span></span>
<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'> There is no in-between, no nerfing of the attack, that can accomplish the same thing. Devour must be removed.</span></span>
Now on to the original post:
Onos is a theme breaker in the current version of NS. Instead of being a huge, fearsome, nigh-invincible, juggernaut, it has become what the fade ought to be - a hit and run creature. March in base, stomp, devour, stomp, escape. Where's the giant space cow role in that? It's pathetic. Also, charge sucks.
My suggestion would be to remove BOTH stomp and devour, and change charge. <i>Radical!!!</i>
- <b>Remove devour, </b>bring back primal scream.
why? devour is the #1 cause of the onos' mixed-up role. Devour is a method of taking a single marine away from the group and killing him in safety. That's something for a fade to do (kill 1 player at a time to take down a squad), not Onos. It should be apparent to everybody why devour doesn't quite fit with the onos.
- <b>Remove stomp, </b>bring back the old paralyze.
why? stomp is too easy to use and too area-effective, and thus encourages spamming (because it's so effect to spam stomp). Paralyze lets the onos stun 1 player at a time, bringing back more strategy to the onos game, by creating choices for the onos (stun LA/HMG or JP/SG?)
- <b>Change charge.</b> <span style='color:white'>(this idea is purely speculative, do not let the "my own idea" nature of this part affect the evaluation of the other parts of this post, which are based on previous builds.)</span>
why? Charge is a silly ability as it is now; it's either extremely easy to dodge or horrifyingly sudden to the point where the victims say "WTH bugs?" before they realize they've been trampled by a big space cow. The current ability to direct charge (basically giving you more speed and insta-damage, but otherwise all controls remain the same) makes the Onos too player-specific - he can single out a single HA suit and charge him to death, rather than deal indiscriminate damage.
anyway, change charge this way:
User holds down key to "charge up" the charge. Upon release, the Onos charges straight forward.
It should be hard or impossible for the Onos to change direction during this charge.
Also, to make up for the fact that the Onos can't change direction, the enemies in the path of the charge (think the area of the current stomp) should be immobile or very slow. This way, there's a possibility of getting out of the way, but not much.
cons: how to code it so onos can't move sideways while charging??
- perhaps lock mouse sensitivity to 0 and let A and D keys control orientation (think CS vehicles)
: how to make players in path of charge move slower?
- This could be accomplished by forcing cl_sidespeed, cl_forwardspeed, etc, to a very low number - say 40 (if default is 400).
: What about primal scream?
- lerks could get back spikes!
Comments
essentially, though, 2/3s of it is just reverting to the way the Onos used to be (primal and paralyze).
As for removing devour I see your point how it "hit a run" to kill a marine in "saftey" thus "having to run away." But please tell me how your going to counter Heavy Armor now? And don't say coordinated attacks because as we ALL know nomatter how coordinated the attacks are, HA own the following: Lerks, Skulks,Gorges, OCS, and Non-"leet" fades so then HA become the End gamers, the Marching Trains of Death, etc. so that leaves 1 option, the Onos.... Devour also seems to promote Marine teamwork. If your going to rambo off with an Onos out there, you better plan on waiting around for 30 seconds when you could be "OGM KILLING SKULKZ FOR T3H L33T SC0R3" (as what most rambo's prefer doing...)
Stomp needs to be reduced to 1/2 a second, add ALOT of armor (as in, more than 750) and add in 100-150 more HP to the Onos, and increase it's cost to 85-90 Have them cost ALOT, but make Marines fear them.
paralyze = marine still able to shoot
devour = in your belly while you run to safety
so paralyze cant really take care of an individual HA when he unloads his HMG clip into your fat body <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But i Agree to some changes like more armor, carpace giving more bonus armor and a better charge
If stomp were more reliable, then I could deal without devour. Para, on the other hand, is not nearly good enough. Even if it kept the rine from firing, it's not like he doesn't have 4 friends who will tear your paper hide with their l3 hmgs while you stand there and gore.
I think a lot of people's idea of the scale of Onos power is somewhat biased towards the extremes. They are either too weak, or, once "balanced", too powerful.
Let's strike a middle ground here, fellas.
They should be scary. They should be able to take on small groups.
They should not be able to take on entire teams.
I'd be a lot happier if people smoothened this out before deciding what was "balanced".
I say buff the onos and let it cost 6 levels (total) in combat and 100 res in classic. Of course, beef charge or it would be useless as it and stomp would be the only upgrades you would get in combat if you decided to get charge.
Stomp can be nerfed a bit, but then devour should be made easier to hit. Stomp replaced paralyze because it was too good against JP's. And JP's are the current counter to oni.
- perhaps lock mouse sensitivity to 0 and let A and D keys control orientation (think CS vehicles)
: how to make players in path of charge move slower?
- This could be accomplished by forcing cl_sidespeed, cl_forwardspeed, etc, to a very low number - say 40 (if default is 400).
: What about primal scream?
- lerks could get back spikes!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't worry about the coding bit for something as simple as this. The MOD coders have essentially full access to player physics. That's why lerk flight, jetpacks and wall climbing is possible. It didn't previously exist, it wasn't hacked togheter with some amazing work around.
Making the onos so powerful that it becomes a "nigh-invincible juggernaut" would be too imbalancing, so that's out of the question.
Instead, focus on changing the onos' abilities to discourage hit-and-run without making the onos weaker. For example:
- Make devour regen much more and slow down the onos more - <i>"eat up and refill" mentality encourages more offensive behavior, while slower speed discourages hit-and-run, and increases likelihood of heroic devour rescues.</i>
- Decrease range of stomp and stomp energy cost - <i>harder to use when running away and the cheaper energy cost makes onos more offensive</i>
The only thing I agree with you is that charge needs to be improved.
EDIT: woops forgot a "not" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
My reasoning is that onos, while strong, are limited in thier attack range. You fit all your upgraded marines with JPs and HMGs and the onos will be powerless ina room with a moderatly high ceiling. This makes for clearly defined counters, but won't allow a newb to res**** up and get a super powered hive 2 onos.
My reasoning is that onos, while strong, are limited in thier attack range. You fit all your upgraded marines with JPs and HMGs and the onos will be powerless ina room with a moderatly high ceiling. This makes for clearly defined counters, but won't allow a newb to res**** up and get a super powered hive 2 onos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And how do you plan on creating a huge jump in effectiveness between hive 2 and hive 3?
That and a better charge.
Charge needs two things to make it better but still balanced..first make it so the damage is done ALL around the onos's body so it makes it seem like its thrashing about...but damage in the back should either have a much smaller cone or just less damage. Also the damage should be upped just a little bit. Basically don't make it so you have to be running against the marine (where you can easily slip off/around/through).
To balance this out lower the current speed boost. Right now charge is only used for hit and run devours, this should not be the case for most times. Lowering speed should help to balance this out.
1) Perching and killing a base from a pipe. Useless, frustrating, stupid.
2) Spores are far superior at killing marines. I would like to see at least a limited spore effect on heavy armor, but that's a different topic itself.
Sorry to be rather agressive and blunt, but I get a little touchy around the lerk subject (I love my lerk).
Having not just charge, but all the hive three abilities kick serious **** would make the game much more balanced.
AR and Charge are both jokes, not deserving up a tier 3 spot. The only problem i forsee is balance issues in CO is Flaya tries to force the same stats on both games
Anyway, I would say give the Onos an extra 600 armor (so that makes them 700/1200 health) but then there's that stupid bug that messes health up when you have more than 999/999 health (try, with sv_cheats on "give team_hive" and give yourself an extra 2+ hives, then use spawnhive to spawn them all. Then, on the marines build some turrets. On aliens, go onos and have the turrets shoot you. Once you get above 999 health, your health display messes up)...
So, just make onos armor worth 2 times as much as normal armor, and raise onos health to 900, and armor to 650. So, the onos health is 900/650, and each point of armor is worth 4, 5 and 6 health from hive 1-3. This effectively gives them 3500 health at hive 1, 4150 health at hive 2 and 4800 health at hive 3.
Then, raise the Onos cost to 100.
Health changes shouldn't be the first change made - instead, health changes should be a buffer for more dramatic and meaningful changes made first (such as removing devour). I say that those ability changes be put into effect; then, the Onos will not have as many facets to its role to balance, so health changes will become MUCH simpler.
I.E. if there was ever a map you could accidently charge off a cliff, or you would accidently let go of charge up and just charge into a wall.
Onos's are supposed to be <b>tanks</b> and feared, thats why stomp can stun lotsa people and can be gored.
Also <b>stomp</b> allows you to retreat and prevent being shot at if you stomp and run away. Instead of sucking up all those bullets in its butt.
Devour allows onos to take out HAs. Combined with stomp it makes it fair.
Cause if a group of HA are against a onos (your version of an onos), the onos can only paralyze one HA (at close range?) and will charge at the HA and die from a mass fire of HMG fire.
Sounds alot like a really big nerf for onos.
There are several opinions about the onos, but when you get into it you have to say that the onos is balanced. You need some skill to handle it correctly (what you need at every lifeform you play) and you need to think before attacking.
I rarely die as onos. (I only die in end rushes, tactical siucide, or if some other stupid players block me to death)
ive seen lone ha's take on semi-hurt onos
maybe 600/500 hp and single ha takes it down cause they can DODGE
onos need buff bad
The current stomp and devour abilities are annoying as hell. Sure they are effective in thier 'i'm not going to let you play the game' way but that doesn't make them right. The dev team can make an onos that is balanced with niether of these abilities.
I also don't agree that HAs should stand up against Oni. I feel the Onos needs to be a counter to HA and have JPs be the big Oni killer.
I say the third hive ability for onos should be something super damaging, becuase if you make the onos have to much hp/ap, anyone could res **** for an easy victory. Make the Onos an 'ok' unit until it gets its third hive ability. Then it needs to be a land based bringer of death
The whole point is that the Onos shouldn't be encouraged to retreat. That's why stomp should be removed - the Onos' role shouldn't call for it.