Then the Onos would loose .0000000000001 health! TOO MUCH HEALTH LOSS OUT OF THE BAJILLION HEALTH IT HAS NOW! Jesus, you are like, stupid. .0000000000001 health loss is like, UBER bad! We need to make Onos stronger than that! Maybe another million health addons should do the trick. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Recoup+Aug 21 2004, 12:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Recoup @ Aug 21 2004, 12:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes, they should be able to kill 5 teams of HA marines with HMG's no problem, without even a scratch, and then manage to pwn the marine base without loosing .000005 health at ALL. God save us if they loose .00005 health. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Then the Onos would loose .0000000000001 health! TOO MUCH HEALTH LOSS OUT OF THE BAJILLION HEALTH IT HAS NOW! Jesus, you are like, stupid. .0000000000001 health loss is like, UBER bad! We need to make Onos stronger than that! Maybe another million health addons should do the trick. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> my my, someone's energetic after that suspension no? no better outlet of all that energy than to waste it on proving your own stupidity, eh? if you want to put a point across, do that in proper english, not in kiddy-blabble as quoted.
i agree that the onos needs a buff. preferably one which does not render it totally helpless due to its oversized hitbox. charge needs knockback, stomp needs to be lengthened for a moment more to have a signifigant effect, and devour's just fine. Though i might suggest that the onos be given a lil boost in speed, just to compensate for its huge hitbox and its 'blockability'.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin-Icejelly+Aug 21 2004, 02:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Icejelly @ Aug 21 2004, 02:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i agree that the onos needs a buff. preferably one which does not render it totally helpless due to its oversized hitbox. charge needs knockback, stomp needs to be lengthened for a moment more to have a signifigant effect, and devour's just fine. Though i might suggest that the onos be given a lil boost in speed, just to compensate for its huge hitbox and its 'blockability'. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If we were to strengthen the Onos without reducing its hit-and-run capability, it would become too powerful at hit-and-run tactics.
Seriously, that's what makes the Onos so weak right now, the fact that his hitbox equals the size of a freight train. It's actually more hard to miss an onos than it is to hit. Also, Natural <b>Selection</b>, aren't the Kharaa a rapid form of bacterial evolution? How do you evolve from a dog-like creature, to a humanoid, to a rhino? Redo the onos, make him slightly faster and redo the model, it would fix most problems.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Seriously, that's what makes the Onos so weak right now, the fact that his hitbox equals the size of a freight train. It's actually more hard to miss an onos than it is to hit. Also, Natural [B]Selection[\B], aren't the Kharaa a rapid form of bacterial evolution? How do you evolve from a dog-like creature, to a humanoid, to a rhino? Redo the onos, make him slightly faster and redo the model, it would fix most problems. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The "Natural-selection" doesn't talk about skulks evolving to gorges, lerks and fades. The title actually refers to whether the marines or the Kharaa are strong enough to survive with their physical adaptations. Which is stronger- an inherently individualistic being that occasionally bands together in groups to protect the others using their mindpower and technology, or a creature that is crafted to specifically defend its hive, utilizing its unique ability to metamorphosize into a different body form?
Here's is something I posted in another thread a while back on my opinion of the Onos:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, I will be the first to tell you that the Onos is quite deadly. This opinion grows from my experience on both sides of that thing's horn. His main tools are stomp and devour. The onos doesn't have quite the strength to maul a heavy train, but stomp can render the train vulnerable to fades and skulks. The onos can also delay a train by picking a few out with devour.
However, I don't like that strat. While it is quite effective, it's VERY frustrating to the marines. Have you ever been in a heavy train, to be stomp-spammed into oblivion? Or maybe you were chasing an onos and he stomped his escape? I think that instead of the onos being a stomping utility, stomp should be replaced by some other attack and the onos should be given a nice, hefty armor and health bonus to help deal with higher-up marines. If that ends up being overpowered early-game, a different approach can be taken by increasing the hive two and three armor bonuses (I'll explain if I need to) instead of the onos armor rate. This would have the side effect of boosting other aliens, noteably the fade, later in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos doesn't need to be much more powerful - it just needs to be less of a wimp. There have been a bunch of suggestions on how to do this without making the onos overpowered:
- headplate receives less damage and onos moves backward slower - massively increase the regen effect of devour but make it slow the onos more - improve charge - change stomp so that it'll become hard to use when retreating - buff up the onos in general and make the JP more resistant to onos somehow - etc.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and then someone said "stomp should last half a second" jesus christ. one of the things why 3.0 onos is so weak compared to 2.0 is the reduced stomp time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you would have read my entire post you would have read a few words after to Buff it up in armor (over 750) and add in 100-150 hp. A few more words over to read would have answered your question and you could have not wasted your 25 seconds of typing on how rediculous that is.
<!--QuoteBegin-BattleTech+Aug 22 2004, 12:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BattleTech @ Aug 22 2004, 12:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Still doesn't help the fact that a single Onos die's in less than 100-HMG round's. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> aye
when an Onos at <b>hive 2</b> is killed by <u>EXACTLY</u> 150 level <b>0</b> HMG bullets, you know somethings wrong <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(but then again thats assuming the Onos in vanilla and doesnt have Regen, but still you usually have alot more then 1 hmg firing at an onos <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
This is one MAIN reason why Marine Last Stands last a LONG time. Because 2-3 Onos with umbra support can't crack a strong defense <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Hobojoe+Aug 23 2004, 12:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hobojoe @ Aug 23 2004, 12:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> stomp and umbra <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well that's great when MS is flat. But for the hard to crack MS locations, that's not at all true. Needs some fixing.
Just thought of a simple idea for stomp. works exactly how it does now. except, when the onos charges, the marines "stick" to the onos. as long as the onos is moving and facing in the general direction he was originally when he frst "stuck" to the onos, he will recieve charge damage. as you know, you can kill a HA in 4 or 5 seconds with charge. possibly double the damage if the marine is pinned vs a wall? could possibly be accomplished the same way lerk lift is? i dont know much about coding, but the fact that marines slip off the onos charge so easily makes it very hard to use.
think about it, charge thru marine spawn, pick up a HA and LA, charge to safety, facing the general directionthat you picked them up in, turn, drop, and finish them off.
of course the rines would be immobilised while all this is going on. possibly show the marines impaled on the onos horn?
great idea imo, but surely this idea would attract people who go "omj teh onso t teh powa moer boost n teh alein r teh overpowa pwnzor marien lolololo!!!"
<!--QuoteBegin-Diablus+Aug 25 2004, 03:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablus @ Aug 25 2004, 03:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-a civilian+Aug 23 2004, 03:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Aug 23 2004, 03:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 110 level 0 HMG bullets, actually. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, thats ridiculous!, and i thought 150 was low <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yes, definetly needs to be fixed..... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's like 4 seconds of one HMG firing
<!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Aug 25 2004, 08:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Aug 25 2004, 08:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Onos really just needs a speed boost. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, that would just lead to a more pansy onos. Just make devour heal much more life.
i suggest onos have 950 armor absorb 10% more dmg, 800 life, run a bit slower, replace devour with something less **** like. and make it so charge is only going in only directing, as suggested in the first post, but people in its way gets pushed to the side with **** load of dmg, and if there happens to be a marine infront of him whilke the charge, he gets pushed backwards, until the onos reaches a wall, and runs into the wall, immobilizes the onos for 1 sec, and make the middle marine take **** load of dmg, and the marines that were pushed to the side immobilized for 1/2 a sec, and make stomp diff, its kinda **** like
Devour is actually good, if the Onos does get a boost, devour is actually an insurance that no Pissy LA with a HMG wont chase you when your low on health (as alot do these days)
They want to chase an Onos thats empty by themselves, they deserve to stare at an anus for 30 seconds.
NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
edited August 2004
Remove Stomp, Devour and Charge
Raise Onos health to 975/800, make the Onos take 75% damage from all weapons.
Give the Onos 2 entirely new attacks (up for discussion).
Raise Onos speed.
Raise onos cost to 100.
MY 3 attacks:
Replacing devour:
Bacterial Field: The bacteria will flood around the Onos. Any marine that gets within 200 units of the Onos will take a quick 15 damage (to prevent the marine from knifing the onos) Also, any incoming bullets will be turned into bacterial health for the Onos, removing all damage done, and giving the Onos 1/3 of that damage as health. This lasts, however, for only .75 seconds. Uses 40% energy. RoF: .5/second.
Replacing stomp: Impale: Uses 30% energy. Since the Onos has 3 horns, it can naturally impale 3 marines, one on each horn. The impaled marine will be stuck on the horn, until either the Onos dies, or the marine dies. The marine will take an instant 145 damage, followed by 25 damage/second. This will slow the onos down by 10% for each marine. Also, the marines can block bullets from the front of the onos. If the Onos dies first, the nanites allow the marine to live.
Replacing Charge: Meh I'll think of something sometime, somewhere. Who knows.
Keep in mind guys, the original post was not about changing the onos because it was either underpowered or overpowered. The purpose of the post was to propose a change to the *feel* of the onos, and then discuss what changes would be necessary to balance around that.
Personally, I agree with the point that the original post was trying to make. I play onos a great deal, and I've seen exactly what was being referred to. Key example:
1) I never go onos at one hive unless entirely necessary 2) I always get regen and celerity, so it's easy to escape a situation 3) Standard attack pattern is stomp, devour, stomp, flee
The reason I never go onos at 1 hive is because I do not have access to either celerity w/ regen or stomp. As the thread tangents about balance have already shown, the current onos without a means of immobilization/quick escape is mincemeat. This sets the stage for really only one consistantly effective game strategy, that being a hit and run onos.
I agree that the onos should be more akin to a heavy assault unit rather than a fast-attack unit. However, making the environment condusive to this is quite the quandry.
--Devour is the Problem -- Devour is one of the main culprits for the hit-and-run game style. Why should I, as a 75 res alien, get into the thick of it to possibly kill 2-3 marines when I can kill one in complete safety under my hive? After giving it some thought, I've not come up with a way to keep devour in the game and shift to a more "tank" oriented gameplay. So, therefore, we are only left with one option: remove it.
Here is my proposal: 1) Increase gore damage I will bet you, if gore was boosted to, say, 100 damage, an onos player would use it a *lot* more. Structures would go down faster, making the onos better at killing bases, and would encourage more close-range combat.
2) Make stomp a slot 2 weapon Now, obviously, stomp is too powerful to be a slot 2 weapon in its current iteration. But there's nothing inherently wrong with stomp, so let's keep the idea but change it in practice. I do not claim to be a balance master, but I envision the new stomp allowing marines to move slightly (akin to being in web) and allow them to fire at half-speed (like a reverse catpack). This new stomp would allow the onos to disorient a large group of marines and create a reason to go onos at 1 hive. Also intuitivly it makes more sense to me, as I personally do not see how a tremor can render you immobile and incapable of firing, but maybe that's just me. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> The only potential worry I have is combining this stomp with umbra, so the exact range/firespeed would need to be tweaked.
3) Replace devour with paralyze as a slot3 weapon The new paralyze would be more akin to the current stomp, rendering a pursuing marine incapable of movement or firing. This would replace devour as the punishment weapon for lone HA's and JP's, as combined with the increased gore damage they would be dead before being able to respond. In all honesty I have no idea what the appropriate rate of fire or energy cost would need to be, so this would need to be tested.
4) Tweak charge Charge I think fits well in slot4, but the current versionis relativly worthless for attacking purposes. It does little damage and is difficult to use correctly, as players are constantly sliding off of marines and structures. Unfortunatly I don't quite have a good solution for this one. What I might say is that when an onos charges they receive increased speed and constantly gore. Any marine hit by the charge gore takes reduced damage compared to the normal attack (30-50 maybe instead of 100), but gets thrown back a far distance. Depending on the desired rate of fire of the charge gore, it might be worth doubling the damage against buildings so they go down twice as fast compared to slot1.
So, after all that, what are we left with? -Gore becomes the onos damage dealer, requiring the onos to get in close -One support skill ideal for disrupting a clustered group of marines -One support skill ideal for punishing the lone marine -One support skill that can splinter a marine squad and allow lesser aliens to take down the resulting isolated member while also providing an effective means to attack structures.
An onos of this type (with the necessary HP and armor changes) would be, I think, exactly what the original poster envisioned: A alien "tank". Able to take down pairs of marines with ease and, while not destory, disorient and/or splinter an HA train, that would put it right at about the balance level we're going for. With the increased gore damage an onos would be encouraged to go in and fight rather than linger back, and without devour they would no longer have a reason to run save for self preservation.
It's much too long to quote for such a simple statement as this, but as it happens, I'm with Brackhar. All of those ideas are of good quality. The numbers might prove to need a little tweaking, but the layout is perfect.
thanks brackar. this same thing happened in the S&I thread, where people just posted their own HP/AP numbers and their own random ideas for onos and didnt even act like they read the first post.
<!--QuoteBegin-Uzguz+Aug 20 2004, 09:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Uzguz @ Aug 20 2004, 09:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Then again, why should the Onos be able to take on a whole group of upgraded Marines by itself and win?
I think a lot of people's idea of the scale of Onos power is somewhat biased towards the extremes. They are either too weak, or, once "balanced", too powerful.
Let's strike a middle ground here, fellas.
They should be scary. They should be able to take on small groups.
They should not be able to take on entire teams.
I'd be a lot happier if people smoothened this out before deciding what was "balanced". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> God do I love your views. Finally someone who sees the Onos in the same light I do. Everyone complains because it is unable to destroy and entire fully upgraded HA/HMG train, then follow up with razing the entire base all by his lonesome. What point is there in playing as a marine if they can completely rape the game once they get a certain lifeform.
I think it is perfect the way it is, health/strength balance anyway. Sure a few attacks could be removed/replaced...but other than that the Onos is fine. A skilled Onos player can maul small groups/take on emplacements and expansions like they should...I know when it's me and maybe two other marines on a mission...I fear the Onos. The only time im 100% fully not afraid of being devoured then carried back to a hive is when im with a full train or a couple of JP/SG guys.
Here is what i see hapening now, seen it while playing from marine perspective and from the onos perspective.
3 HAs with HMGs kill an onos. sometimes with difficulty but most of the time with ease depending on terrain. Usually the onos will run, all the HAs will live. If the Onos decides to commit and try to devour one of the HA, it dies. I say this from experience, an onos just can't stand up against 2 or 3 HMGs fired with reasonable accuracy and expect to do more than kill 1 HA before expiring.
ok that's the premise... now the statement: holy **** that sucks!
Onos needs something, i don't know what it is, but it needs it bad. Some of the things i've seen in posts here AND i agree with (not ruling out other stuff):
- Devour makes hit and runs too easy (didn't think about it till i read this thread) - Gore damage isn't high enough (always thought so) - Onos doesn't have enough HP - Charge is used for movement and not actual combat
Some changes, a lot of good ideas i'm building off of here came from previous posts and the bajillions of related threads
Devour: greatly increase the regen granted but make the onos move at half normal speed. Intended result: Onos eats a marine and then stays in the fight thanks to very high regeneration and retreat is even less of an option due to very slow speed. When an onos commits only one species leaves the room alive.
Gore: Raise the damage! Gore an armor3 HA marine to death in 6 hits or 3 focus hits. It's the best melee attack. For the onos to fight and kill a few marines before dying it needs to kill them without having to hit them 8 times. If you want the onos to do anything but devour it has to have an effective attack other than devour!
HP: The simplest change. Seems to change a lot from patch to patch. Regardless... onos needs more armor. A non carapaced onos should die from not much less than 2 full HMG clips. Not the 120-150 bullets it is now, instead 200-250 bullets.
Charge: Fits the atmosphere very well, i think we should wait to see what fixes roll out to see how it needs changing. If the fixes don't make this a good skill then a new ability is needed. Brackhar had some excellent suggestions with ability tweaks that would replace charge.
*Normal speed for the onos needs to be reduced to fit the huge improvement in armor* Tanks are slow, the onos is no different. So. Slow it down, give it more damage and armor.
*Make retreat half again as difficult but make head on assault twice as easy*
see what i'm getting at? Make it so the onos' best choice is to kill everything that is attacking it, instead of running away. An onos should be able to kill three HA HMGers, it should be a close fight unless the Onos is good enough to use stomp and devour without missing. It will still die easily against 5 HMGs, there is no way to prevent that nor should there be, except with a team effort.
No, it can't kill a train by itself. Yes it can kill a lightly manned base with ease, and it can kill groups of 2 or 3 with ease. As it should. It's a tank. JP can still counter it and hunt it down, 4 HMGs will still turn it into shredded beef. The number of hit and run devours will go down. The number of people using gore and charging into the fray will go up. Onos will be more fun to play as and will fit in the game as a assault unit instead of another hit and run.
Now, here is where my post turns pretty unrealistic. Someone posted a suggestion that while firing at the Onos' headplate bullets do greatly reduced damage. For those of you that have played Halo just think of those bulky aliens with the arm shield that deflected 90% of your bullets. Now THAT is something I want to see and is incredibly appropriate for the onos. While charging down the hall 75% of bullets will end up deflecting off the headplate, that's just sexy. I know it can be done because i've seen riot shields in CS and i just can't express how "right" it would feel for that big bone plate on the onos' head to be bullet proof or mostly bullet proof.
Most people here will say that the Onos is unbalanced. We're not quite sure in which way the Onos is unbalanced - too weak? too strong?
The Onos will continue to be unbalanced because the people who are changing HP values don't know which school of play to balance it for - the story-fitting tank Onos, or the hit-and-run Onos.
Those who attempt to play Onos the right way say it is too weak, and they are correct for that style. But if you balance the Onos' HP values for that style of play, you unbalance it for the other mode of play - hit and run. (Where it becomes impossible to prevent a single marine from being devoured from around a corner because of the Onos' high health, so hit-and-run becomes an uncounterable tactic.) High-health hit and run units are an inherent imbalance.
<b><span style='font-size:15pt;line-height:100%'>There can only be one solution to this balance problem, and this is to utterly eliminate one of these two styles of play.</b></span> Once the Onos is used in a consistent manner, it will become TONS easier to balance, instead of this ridiculous every-version HP changing.
Suggesting a mere <i>change</i> to devour is <b>not the answer.</b> Removing devour is the only answer - there can be no middle ground. The problem will exist as long as Devour exists.
edit: edited original post so people can see the point more clearly and stop posting their own ideas.
<!--QuoteBegin-Windelkron+Aug 31 2004, 06:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Windelkron @ Aug 31 2004, 06:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> no, you still don't understand.
Most people here will say that the Onos is unbalanced. We're not quite sure in which way the Onos is unbalanced - too weak? too strong?
[...] stuff [/...]
Suggesting a mere <i>change</i> to devour is <b>not the answer.</b> Removing devour is the only answer - there can be no middle ground. The problem will exist as long as Devour exists.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Windelkron, i believe you've not read the post above yours. CombatJoe did pose some very good points for fixing the onos.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Devour: greatly increase the regen granted but make the onos move at half normal speed. Intended result: Onos eats a marine and then stays in the fight thanks to very high regeneration and retreat is even less of an option due to very slow speed. When an onos commits only one species leaves the room alive.
*Normal speed for the onos needs to be reduced to fit the huge improvement in armor* Tanks are slow, the onos is no different. So. Slow it down, give it more damage and armor.
see what i'm getting at? Make it so the onos' best choice is to kill everything that is attacking it, instead of running away.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Notice that CombatJoe did grasp the crux of the problem and explained his point of view on it pretty much reasonably? Now if you'd pay more attention to what people are posting and at the same time to your common sense, i think you'd see his point pretty clearly.
Also, removing an ability is not always the best solution. we must learn to make-do, not make-new. Devour is pretty okay in my opinion, often used to punish lone rambos or get rid of that pesky jp-er in areas with a low ceiling.
Comments
Then the Onos would loose .0000000000001 health! TOO MUCH HEALTH LOSS OUT OF THE BAJILLION HEALTH IT HAS NOW! Jesus, you are like, stupid. .0000000000001 health loss is like, UBER bad! We need to make Onos stronger than that! Maybe another million health addons should do the trick. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
my my, someone's energetic after that suspension no? no better outlet of all that energy than to waste it on proving your own stupidity, eh? if you want to put a point across, do that in proper english, not in kiddy-blabble as quoted.
i agree that the onos needs a buff. preferably one which does not render it totally helpless due to its oversized hitbox. charge needs knockback, stomp needs to be lengthened for a moment more to have a signifigant effect, and devour's just fine. Though i might suggest that the onos be given a lil boost in speed, just to compensate for its huge hitbox and its 'blockability'.
If we were to strengthen the Onos without reducing its hit-and-run capability, it would become too powerful at hit-and-run tactics.
Seriously, that's what makes the Onos so weak right now, the fact that his hitbox equals the size of a freight train. It's actually more hard to miss an onos than it is to hit. Also, Natural <b>Selection</b>, aren't the Kharaa a rapid form of bacterial evolution? How do you evolve from a dog-like creature, to a humanoid, to a rhino? Redo the onos, make him slightly faster and redo the model, it would fix most problems.
The "Natural-selection" doesn't talk about skulks evolving to gorges, lerks and fades. The title actually refers to whether the marines or the Kharaa are strong enough to survive with their physical adaptations. Which is stronger- an inherently individualistic being that occasionally bands together in groups to protect the others using their mindpower and technology, or a creature that is crafted to specifically defend its hive, utilizing its unique ability to metamorphosize into a different body form?
Here's is something I posted in another thread a while back on my opinion of the Onos:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, I will be the first to tell you that the Onos is quite deadly. This opinion grows from my experience on both sides of that thing's horn. His main tools are stomp and devour. The onos doesn't have quite the strength to maul a heavy train, but stomp can render the train vulnerable to fades and skulks. The onos can also delay a train by picking a few out with devour.
However, I don't like that strat. While it is quite effective, it's VERY frustrating to the marines. Have you ever been in a heavy train, to be stomp-spammed into oblivion? Or maybe you were chasing an onos and he stomped his escape? I think that instead of the onos being a stomping utility, stomp should be replaced by some other attack and the onos should be given a nice, hefty armor and health bonus to help deal with higher-up marines. If that ends up being overpowered early-game, a different approach can be taken by increasing the hive two and three armor bonuses (I'll explain if I need to) instead of the onos armor rate. This would have the side effect of boosting other aliens, noteably the fade, later in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- headplate receives less damage and onos moves backward slower
- massively increase the regen effect of devour but make it slow the onos more
- improve charge
- change stomp so that it'll become hard to use when retreating
- buff up the onos in general and make the JP more resistant to onos somehow
- etc.
If you would have read my entire post you would have read a few words after to Buff it up in armor (over 750) and add in 100-150 hp. A few more words over to read would have answered your question and you could have not wasted your 25 seconds of typing on how rediculous that is.
aye
when an Onos at <b>hive 2</b> is killed by <u>EXACTLY</u> 150 level <b>0</b> HMG bullets, you know somethings wrong <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(but then again thats assuming the Onos in vanilla and doesnt have Regen, but still you usually have alot more then 1 hmg firing at an onos <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
This is one MAIN reason why Marine Last Stands last a LONG time. Because 2-3 Onos with umbra support can't crack a strong defense <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well that's great when MS is flat. But for the hard to crack MS locations, that's not at all true. Needs some fixing.
110 level 0 HMG bullets, actually.
think about it, charge thru marine spawn, pick up a HA and LA, charge to safety, facing the general directionthat you picked them up in, turn, drop, and finish them off.
of course the rines would be immobilised while all this is going on. possibly show the marines impaled on the onos horn?
sorry for hijacking btw.
Wow, thats ridiculous!, and i thought 150 was low <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yes, definetly needs to be fixed.....
Wow, thats ridiculous!, and i thought 150 was low <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yes, definetly needs to be fixed..... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's like 4 seconds of one HMG firing
What are you fixing
No, that would just lead to a more pansy onos. Just make devour heal much more life.
They want to chase an Onos thats empty by themselves, they deserve to stare at an anus for 30 seconds.
- [b]Remove devour
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and yes. I concur.
- [b]Remove devour
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and yes. I concur. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
an on-topic reply, YES!
Raise Onos health to 975/800, make the Onos take 75% damage from all weapons.
Give the Onos 2 entirely new attacks (up for discussion).
Raise Onos speed.
Raise onos cost to 100.
MY 3 attacks:
Replacing devour:
Bacterial Field: The bacteria will flood around the Onos. Any marine that gets within 200 units of the Onos will take a quick 15 damage (to prevent the marine from knifing the onos) Also, any incoming bullets will be turned into bacterial health for the Onos, removing all damage done, and giving the Onos 1/3 of that damage as health. This lasts, however, for only .75 seconds. Uses 40% energy. RoF: .5/second.
Replacing stomp: Impale: Uses 30% energy. Since the Onos has 3 horns, it can naturally impale 3 marines, one on each horn. The impaled marine will be stuck on the horn, until either the Onos dies, or the marine dies. The marine will take an instant 145 damage, followed by 25 damage/second. This will slow the onos down by 10% for each marine. Also, the marines can block bullets from the front of the onos. If the Onos dies first, the nanites allow the marine to live.
Replacing Charge: Meh I'll think of something sometime, somewhere. Who knows.
Personally, I agree with the point that the original post was trying to make. I play onos a great deal, and I've seen exactly what was being referred to. Key example:
1) I never go onos at one hive unless entirely necessary
2) I always get regen and celerity, so it's easy to escape a situation
3) Standard attack pattern is stomp, devour, stomp, flee
The reason I never go onos at 1 hive is because I do not have access to either celerity w/ regen or stomp. As the thread tangents about balance have already shown, the current onos without a means of immobilization/quick escape is mincemeat. This sets the stage for really only one consistantly effective game strategy, that being a hit and run onos.
I agree that the onos should be more akin to a heavy assault unit rather than a fast-attack unit. However, making the environment condusive to this is quite the quandry.
--Devour is the Problem --
Devour is one of the main culprits for the hit-and-run game style. Why should I, as a 75 res alien, get into the thick of it to possibly kill 2-3 marines when I can kill one in complete safety under my hive? After giving it some thought, I've not come up with a way to keep devour in the game and shift to a more "tank" oriented gameplay. So, therefore, we are only left with one option: remove it.
Here is my proposal:
1) Increase gore damage
I will bet you, if gore was boosted to, say, 100 damage, an onos player would use it a *lot* more. Structures would go down faster, making the onos better at killing bases, and would encourage more close-range combat.
2) Make stomp a slot 2 weapon
Now, obviously, stomp is too powerful to be a slot 2 weapon in its current iteration. But there's nothing inherently wrong with stomp, so let's keep the idea but change it in practice. I do not claim to be a balance master, but I envision the new stomp allowing marines to move slightly (akin to being in web) and allow them to fire at half-speed (like a reverse catpack). This new stomp would allow the onos to disorient a large group of marines and create a reason to go onos at 1 hive. Also intuitivly it makes more sense to me, as I personally do not see how a tremor can render you immobile and incapable of firing, but maybe that's just me. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> The only potential worry I have is combining this stomp with umbra, so the exact range/firespeed would need to be tweaked.
3) Replace devour with paralyze as a slot3 weapon
The new paralyze would be more akin to the current stomp, rendering a pursuing marine incapable of movement or firing. This would replace devour as the punishment weapon for lone HA's and JP's, as combined with the increased gore damage they would be dead before being able to respond. In all honesty I have no idea what the appropriate rate of fire or energy cost would need to be, so this would need to be tested.
4) Tweak charge
Charge I think fits well in slot4, but the current versionis relativly worthless for attacking purposes. It does little damage and is difficult to use correctly, as players are constantly sliding off of marines and structures. Unfortunatly I don't quite have a good solution for this one. What I might say is that when an onos charges they receive increased speed and constantly gore. Any marine hit by the charge gore takes reduced damage compared to the normal attack (30-50 maybe instead of 100), but gets thrown back a far distance. Depending on the desired rate of fire of the charge gore, it might be worth doubling the damage against buildings so they go down twice as fast compared to slot1.
So, after all that, what are we left with?
-Gore becomes the onos damage dealer, requiring the onos to get in close
-One support skill ideal for disrupting a clustered group of marines
-One support skill ideal for punishing the lone marine
-One support skill that can splinter a marine squad and allow lesser aliens to take down the resulting isolated member while also providing an effective means to attack structures.
An onos of this type (with the necessary HP and armor changes) would be, I think, exactly what the original poster envisioned: A alien "tank". Able to take down pairs of marines with ease and, while not destory, disorient and/or splinter an HA train, that would put it right at about the balance level we're going for. With the increased gore damage an onos would be encouraged to go in and fight rather than linger back, and without devour they would no longer have a reason to run save for self preservation.
A bit drastic, I agree, but plausible I believe.
-Brackhar
Edit: typos galore
I think a lot of people's idea of the scale of Onos power is somewhat biased towards the extremes. They are either too weak, or, once "balanced", too powerful.
Let's strike a middle ground here, fellas.
They should be scary. They should be able to take on small groups.
They should not be able to take on entire teams.
I'd be a lot happier if people smoothened this out before deciding what was "balanced". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
God do I love your views. Finally someone who sees the Onos in the same light I do. Everyone complains because it is unable to destroy and entire fully upgraded HA/HMG train, then follow up with razing the entire base all by his lonesome. What point is there in playing as a marine if they can completely rape the game once they get a certain lifeform.
I think it is perfect the way it is, health/strength balance anyway. Sure a few attacks could be removed/replaced...but other than that the Onos is fine. A skilled Onos player can maul small groups/take on emplacements and expansions like they should...I know when it's me and maybe two other marines on a mission...I fear the Onos. The only time im 100% fully not afraid of being devoured then carried back to a hive is when im with a full train or a couple of JP/SG guys.
Here is what i see hapening now, seen it while playing from marine perspective and from the onos perspective.
3 HAs with HMGs kill an onos. sometimes with difficulty but most of the time with ease depending on terrain. Usually the onos will run, all the HAs will live. If the Onos decides to commit and try to devour one of the HA, it dies. I say this from experience, an onos just can't stand up against 2 or 3 HMGs fired with reasonable accuracy and expect to do more than kill 1 HA before expiring.
ok that's the premise... now the statement:
holy **** that sucks!
Onos needs something, i don't know what it is, but it needs it bad. Some of the things i've seen in posts here AND i agree with (not ruling out other stuff):
- Devour makes hit and runs too easy (didn't think about it till i read this thread)
- Gore damage isn't high enough (always thought so)
- Onos doesn't have enough HP
- Charge is used for movement and not actual combat
Some changes, a lot of good ideas i'm building off of here came from previous posts and the bajillions of related threads
Devour: greatly increase the regen granted but make the onos move at half normal speed. Intended result: Onos eats a marine and then stays in the fight thanks to very high regeneration and retreat is even less of an option due to very slow speed. When an onos commits only one species leaves the room alive.
Gore: Raise the damage! Gore an armor3 HA marine to death in 6 hits or 3 focus hits. It's the best melee attack. For the onos to fight and kill a few marines before dying it needs to kill them without having to hit them 8 times. If you want the onos to do anything but devour it has to have an effective attack other than devour!
HP: The simplest change. Seems to change a lot from patch to patch. Regardless... onos needs more armor. A non carapaced onos should die from not much less than 2 full HMG clips. Not the 120-150 bullets it is now, instead 200-250 bullets.
Charge: Fits the atmosphere very well, i think we should wait to see what fixes roll out to see how it needs changing. If the fixes don't make this a good skill then a new ability is needed. Brackhar had some excellent suggestions with ability tweaks that would replace charge.
*Normal speed for the onos needs to be reduced to fit the huge improvement in armor* Tanks are slow, the onos is no different. So. Slow it down, give it more damage and armor.
*Make retreat half again as difficult but make head on assault twice as easy*
see what i'm getting at? Make it so the onos' best choice is to kill everything that is attacking it, instead of running away. An onos should be able to kill three HA HMGers, it should be a close fight unless the Onos is good enough to use stomp and devour without missing. It will still die easily against 5 HMGs, there is no way to prevent that nor should there be, except with a team effort.
No, it can't kill a train by itself. Yes it can kill a lightly manned base with ease, and it can kill groups of 2 or 3 with ease. As it should. It's a tank. JP can still counter it and hunt it down, 4 HMGs will still turn it into shredded beef. The number of hit and run devours will go down. The number of people using gore and charging into the fray will go up. Onos will be more fun to play as and will fit in the game as a assault unit instead of another hit and run.
Now, here is where my post turns pretty unrealistic. Someone posted a suggestion that while firing at the Onos' headplate bullets do greatly reduced damage. For those of you that have played Halo just think of those bulky aliens with the arm shield that deflected 90% of your bullets. Now THAT is something I want to see and is incredibly appropriate for the onos. While charging down the hall 75% of bullets will end up deflecting off the headplate, that's just sexy. I know it can be done because i've seen riot shields in CS and i just can't express how "right" it would feel for that big bone plate on the onos' head to be bullet proof or mostly bullet proof.
Most people here will say that the Onos is unbalanced. We're not quite sure in which way the Onos is unbalanced - too weak? too strong?
The Onos will continue to be unbalanced because the people who are changing HP values don't know which school of play to balance it for - the story-fitting tank Onos, or the hit-and-run Onos.
Those who attempt to play Onos the right way say it is too weak, and they are correct for that style. But if you balance the Onos' HP values for that style of play, you unbalance it for the other mode of play - hit and run. (Where it becomes impossible to prevent a single marine from being devoured from around a corner because of the Onos' high health, so hit-and-run becomes an uncounterable tactic.) High-health hit and run units are an inherent imbalance.
<b><span style='font-size:15pt;line-height:100%'>There can only be one solution to this balance problem, and this is to utterly eliminate one of these two styles of play.</b></span> Once the Onos is used in a consistent manner, it will become TONS easier to balance, instead of this ridiculous every-version HP changing.
Suggesting a mere <i>change</i> to devour is <b>not the answer.</b> Removing devour is the only answer - there can be no middle ground. The problem will exist as long as Devour exists.
edit: edited original post so people can see the point more clearly and stop posting their own ideas.
Most people here will say that the Onos is unbalanced. We're not quite sure in which way the Onos is unbalanced - too weak? too strong?
[...] stuff [/...]
Suggesting a mere <i>change</i> to devour is <b>not the answer.</b> Removing devour is the only answer - there can be no middle ground. The problem will exist as long as Devour exists.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Windelkron, i believe you've not read the post above yours. CombatJoe did pose some very good points for fixing the onos.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Devour: greatly increase the regen granted but make the onos move at half normal speed. Intended result: Onos eats a marine and then stays in the fight thanks to very high regeneration and retreat is even less of an option due to very slow speed. When an onos commits only one species leaves the room alive.
*Normal speed for the onos needs to be reduced to fit the huge improvement in armor* Tanks are slow, the onos is no different. So. Slow it down, give it more damage and armor.
see what i'm getting at? Make it so the onos' best choice is to kill everything that is attacking it, instead of running away.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Notice that CombatJoe did grasp the crux of the problem and explained his point of view on it pretty much reasonably? Now if you'd pay more attention to what people are posting and at the same time to your common sense, i think you'd see his point pretty clearly.
Also, removing an ability is not always the best solution. we must learn to make-do, not make-new. Devour is pretty okay in my opinion, often used to punish lone rambos or get rid of that pesky jp-er in areas with a low ceiling.
[edit] shortened quotes [/edit]